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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison



  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Louis...why do you feel the Genesis would attract TL buyers when the Azera already does that? The Acura and the Genesis are two different animals. What is so luxury about a TL???

    The Genesis will pull sales from those that have champagne taste on a beer budget. Simply put, there are a lot of folks that desire to have a BMW 5-Series, Benz E-Class, Infiniti M or Lexus GS in their garage and, quite simply....can't afford it. However, Hyundai has an answer for that, it's called...Genesis!!!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Simply put, there are a lot of folks that desire to have a BMW 5-Series, Benz E-Class, Infiniti M or Lexus GS in their garage and, quite simply....can't afford it.


    Those are what I call "luxury shoppers on budget". However, they are NOT, and I repeat, NOT part of the BMW/MB/Lexus/Infiniti crowd because simply, like you've stated, they can't afford it. So if those are the core buyers for the Genesis then it and the GS/5er/E/M are not competing in the same market.

    What's luxury about a TL? I would say not much except it's under a pseudo luxury brand (like Volvo and Saab), its fit-n'-finish is a tab better than mainstream cars including Avalon, Azera and Maxima. Also, it offers something that Azera doesn't have: aluminum interior trim. I can see people cross-shop between the TL and Azera but I'll bet that majority of the shopper who is more into handling would ultimately go with the TL.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    To answer your earlier question, I am here when I'm here - I have made previous posts asking everyone to stay on topic. I do not sit here 24/7 reading every single post as it is posted, I can only post when I am here, obviously. And I see you are still pulling non-mainstream non-large sedans into this conversation at will regardless of my requests.

    To all - this topic is about mainstream large sedans. It is not about whatever vehicles any given manufacturer creates that are not in this category. It is also not a Hyundai vs Toyota (and occasionally a few various other manufacturers) topic.

    Please stick to comparing mainstream large sedans and take other conversation to other appropriate discussions. If you need help finding one, drop me an email. I'll be glad to help.

    And I guess I should also say that we're not going to argue about this here - if anyone wants to discuss anything I've said, please email me and we can discuss it there.

    Thank you.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I hate to tell you this my friend, there are a LOT of people out there that wish they could own one of those premium sedans and simply can't afford one. Which, goes back to what I orginally stated about the Genesis...a blue collar luxury sports sedan. Just because someone can't afford it, doesn't mean they can't shop it. They may shop them to see what they are all about, then compare it to a Genesis and feel for the money...they are getting what they want. I do agree...if someone has the money to buy a GS/5-Series/E-Class...I doubt they'll jump in a Genesis. However, you may have one or two that will (human nature is a funny thing).

    Wow...aluminum trim is the best you can come up with? LOL The handling is a given. can't begin to compare the TL to the Azera in terms of interior space, so someone with a family really won't be interested in a TL unless the average height in the family is 5'6". Someone like me with a family, the TL would be a joke. I'm 6"2", my 11& 13 year old girls are 5'3" and growing...either one of them would be miserable sitting behind me in a TL. Now if you take someone that's single or maybe a couple...yeah, the TL would be quite appealing compared to the Azera.

    There are arguments for both, but to start comparing the Genesis against a TL...come on, that's no comparison at all. The Genesis would trump the TL all day long!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The Genesis would trump the TL all day long!

    Unless the Genesis can outhandle a G35 or IS350 then whatever you've just said is just not going to happen, at least not if it's the TL-S. Although the TL is FWD it is one of the best handling FWDs there is, if not the best. I would say numbers like 0.91G on a skidpad and 66 mph through slalom would be very hard for the Genesis to match. Acceleration wise the V8 Genesis will have the edge but the 3.8 will be evenly matched.

    We'll just have to wait and see how well the Genesis is selling in order to determine how many people are out there lusting after a fullsize RWD luxo-sports sedan that doesn't carry the BMW/MB/Lexus/Infiniti badge...

    I personally would opt for the G8 over Genesis if I am in that crowd.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Another thing...the TL is NOT a full sized sedan, by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that the Genesis in 3.8 trim would be evenly matched compared to the TL-S...that's not saying much for the TL-S, is it? You're asking a full sized sedan to out manuver mid-size performance sedans. Come on now...G35 or IS??? LOL If anything, it needs to handle like a GS, 5-Series or something of the same size.

    You seem to be the type that leans more towards the athleticism in a car, nothign wrong with that. The G8 is definitely that when compared to the Genesis. Your shoppings (if you're looking full sized) would be the G8, Charger, Genesis & Maxima. For those that want a more refined look, they'll be looking at the Avalon, Azera, Genesis & 300. Which trim level...that depends on the buyer. If they are looking V-6...that's a wide open field. If they want the V-8 option, that really narrows it down. I say that because the American offerings really only compare to the import V-6's (outside the Mopar ring).
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Uhhhhhh...I NEVER said the Genesis would take away from the TL, I said the Azera would do that. I also understood that you were talking acceleration-wise. The TL showing up as an AWD model, don't be surprised if you see Hyundai offering an AWD Azera or Genesis in the near future as well. ;) may be right in that the near-luxury full sized segment may be small now, whose to say that will not change?

    I guess we'll have to sit back and see just how well received the Genesis is and how (or if) it will affect the Azera in any way. However, I personally see the Genesis making waves that will be recognized in the industry.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Is the TL a mainstream large sedan? NO.

    Is there a Near Luxury Performance Sedans discussion? YES.

    Are there many other discussions that cover all the off-topic stuff being batted around in here? YES.

    Please stay on topic if you want your posts not to be removed.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Not necessarily true...especially if things have been added to the car since it's induction. However...does the price really drop? I think the MSRP stays pretty much the same and larger rebates/incentives are handed out and you see more sales.

    With the can't even say that the last 3 years have seen the exact same car. The '06 rolled out with everything it offered, the in '07 they added XM and Euro signal repeaters on the side mirrors. The '08 model ushers in in-dash nav, upgraded sound system and a supposed suspension upgrade.

    Most cars are continually updated with small changes, but that doesn't affect the fact that they are typically cheaper than first year models.

    My 2006 Accord came at a lower price than my dad's 2003 (same model, EX I4), although my car had more horsepower, more noise-insulation, new LED taillamps, heated mirrors, lighted steering wheel controls, electronic throttle, etc all which his didn't have. The final transaction price was cheaper on my 2006. I suspect this is true on most mainstream cars.

    The MSRP wasn't much different (in fact it was higher on my 06), but the deals taken were much better.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717 may be right in that the near-luxury full sized segment may be small now, whose to say that will not change?

    You've got to be kidding me right?

    Unless you are living on a different planet, last I checked the oil price isn't coming down anytime soon. Not to mention the high possibility of it breaking $4/gallon this coming summer. You think that's good for the RWD fullsize sedan segment where the V6s and V8s are the dominant powertrains? :confuse:

    Oh yeah, the Genesis will be making waves in the industry one way or another...

    I can see Genesis getting the AWD treatment in the future but highly doubt it about the Azera. Of course, if the future Hyundai AWD system is FWD-biased then it could be the other way around.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai has AWD systems but just not on any of the current US car line. I do recall it has signed an agreement w/ Haldex so that's good news.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    You would really LOVE to see the Azera go bye-bye, huh?
    give me a break - actually would prefer to see it survive a while longer. It seems logical for Hyundai to discontinue the Azera because 1) they don't need 2 full size cars- and 2) the Azera hasn't been a screaming success anyway. Maybe - just maybe, this whole thread has more to do with Hyundai logically discontinuing production of the Azera when the Genesis finally appears - something that would do me absolutely no good at all, my Avalon is starting to get a bit long in tooth.
    To blend this into a subsequent thread - might the cars be 'different animals' - they should- BUT is the fact that the Genesis is 'supposed' to be 'sports sedan' make any difference to that 'normal' large sedan buyer that's out shopping on a Saturday - I think not. The very fact that he is over at the Hyundai lot in the first place would logically mean he is looking for something less expensive - he is going to be much more willing to spend the $26k on the Azera a long time before he considers a Genesis with maybe 10 grand more on the window sticker. Remember he is shopping price, not the car especially. In short Hyundai is making a big mistake IMO putting the Azeras on the same lots with the Genesis, they should indeed be different animals but to the car buyer that only understands price, a large sedan is a large sedan, and that condition (having both choices) would seemingly lead to the failure of the more expensive choice. If Hyundai wants the Genesis to be a success the last thing they should want to do is compete with themselves, especially when their market is so price conscious to begin with.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    This is a comparison of mainstream large sedans, vehicle by vehicle. Please see the Automotive News and Views board for suitable topics where we are discussing the line-ups of any given manufacturer if that is what interests you.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We need to get back on topic here. If anyone has a question about a post being deleted, please email me. I'll be glad to discuss it with you off the board, but we're not going to continue the topic disruption here.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,413
    "If Hyundai wants the Genesis to be a success the last thing they should want to do is compete with themselves"

    That is why I believe the Azera will be dropped. Why else would they be putting the 3.3 in the Genesis? They needed to get the price lower to fill in the gap between a loaded Sonata and Genesis. Makes no sense to have two cars in the same segment by one manufacturer. Especially one having trouble selling the model they have.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Considering everything the Genesis offers...YES
    well it certainly would with you - a decidely 'pro Korean bias' and somebody that has had good luck with Korean automobiles. I afraid, though, that you are in the minority, the Korean equals 'cheap' in price as well as 'suspect' in quality to perhaps a majority. Whether this has any basis in fact is NOT the point. It is more to the point of Hyundai 'putting the cart in front of the horse'. Furthermore I don't think that the normal buyer of a car in this class is sophisticated enough to understand or give a darn about what the Genesis may or may not offer. Those kind of folks buy BMWs or the like and wouldn't be caught dead at a Hyundai dealer, in any case. The Chrysler 300/Chargers do not sell because they are RWD or even its MB designed suspension, it sells relatively well because (like many Chrysler products in the past) it has some rather unique styling to go along with that 'Hemi' mystique.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Don't get me wrong, I have much respect for Toyota, Honda and Nissan. I've personally owned 3 Toyotas in my lifetime (thus far). If I wasn't in the financial position I was in when I bought my '02 Sonata, I probably wouldn't have found out how good they've actually become.

    IF...Hyundai can run an aggresive campaign to get potential buyers in the show rooms, the car will sell itself. You see...most folks base their opinion of a Hyundai on what they think they know. I believe if most of the folks that think negatively about a Hyundai product actually took the time to go physically see one, test drive it and all that...their opinion would shift.

    I hate to say it, the consumer is more educated that you give them credit for. With the internet handy almost anywhere, anyone can learn anything about any car. It's no surprise that a potential buyer can walk in and know more about a new model than a sales-person working there.

    Once again...MOST of the 300/Chargers sold, aren't even the Hemi version, so how does that theory hold any water?

    How did Hyundai put the cart in front of the horse???
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    putting the 3.3 in the Genesis?
    the 240hp in the 3.3 Genesis would logically provide some reasonably competitive acceleration time (0-60 probably low 7s) and might even get overall FE in the high teens- I have yet to see any numbers and like you would regard this as critical as gas makes its march into the stratosphere. The 3.8 would logically figure to get Avalon-like acceleration times assumming a GVW of about 3800 lbs. but possibly about the same FE as the smaller 3.3. The available torque difference may just be the defining 'limitation' of the 3.3 in the Genesis - think Lucerne 3.8's highway behavior on this one- making the 3.8 with its higher torque the engine of choice. I doubt that the 3.3 is any less expensive to build than the larger 3.8, but you might be absolutely right - Hyundai may simply be offering it to fill a price slot left vacant by the planned departure of the Azera.
    Really a shame if this happens - this, is of course, only speculation. Despite allmet's accusations about some sort of personal agenda I have, the Azera remains a good and competitive effort in this class- likely my personal 3rd choice in this group behind the Avalon and Maxima - as it pretty much has always been.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    the 240hp in the 3.3 Genesis

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,413
    I like the idea of the Genesis... no doubt in my mind it will be a good car. Everything else aside it may make other manufacturers think "what do I have to compete with this?" I am due for a new car in just about a year and I will give it a look. However, as you well know I will not take a 4 or 5 MPG penalty compared to my Av .

    "the Azera remains a good and competitive effort in this class- likely my personal 3rd choice in this group behind the Avalon and Maxima"

    Here is where we differ a little bit... I actually put the Azera over the Max. The main reasons are the interior (smaller and I hate all the tiny buttons) and the torque steer problems. However, in all honesty I would be happy in any of them. The Maxima would definately have to be a SL model, SE a little firm for my tastes.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    If the Azera were discontinued, there would still be a price gap of about $5000. Personally...I see the 3.3 being discontinued for the Genesis.

    Captain, I never accused you of anything, I flat out asked you a question which was based on your postings and you being so pro-Toyota, that's all.

    I'm glad to see you say that the Azera is what it is, a good competitive effort in it's class. ;)
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I know a variety of magazine tests have shown the Azera to be the marginally quieter of the two, but both are like tomb, compared to most cars. If you don't hear anything, how much difference does a decibel make -- not much in my opinion.

    With either car, its not unusual to try the starter again, when the car is already running.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Yes - but the Chrysler brand is premium compared to Dodge is it not. And I would imagine that Charger sales do poach 300 sales and vice versa - that being the problem of having two full size cars to sell.

    Why can't a car company offer two large sedans?
    Would suggest to you that Hyundai can obviously market its cars however it pleases - but if we accept the premise that the Hyundai buyer is 'blue collar' - your words and is price sensitive - than his obvious choice would logically be the Azera - not the Genesis. If he is looking for a full size sedan, he wants something that will take his family on vacation, is also probably concerned with not having to mortgage his house to pay his bill over at the neighborhood Shell station or FTM his car payments. As such, the Azera would be his better choice. From Hyundai's perspective it is likely that they make more dollars selling this guy the more expensive car. See the conflict yet?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I mean...they could do Kia/Hyundai like Dodge/Chrysler...make the Hyundai side the more upscale versions.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Non-luxury makers make luxury cars, just as much as luxury makers make non-luxury cars.

    Sorry, that is just not true in the industry (apparently you are hanging out with the wrong people...).

    Ask Mitsubishi and Mazda in the 90s and VW in the early 00s about how well did their "non-luxury makers make luxury cars" thingy go.

    We've been over this many times it's time to drop the discussion. Like the host said, this is a place to discuss "mainstream" large sedans so if the Genesis is an ELLS then it should not belong here. You are welcome to discuss about the Genesis in the ELLS and luxury lounge boards but let us know how that goes...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you being so pro-Toyota, that's all
    I think you'll get me to admit to being 'Pro-Japanese' fBUT or a number of reasons: 1) a demonstrated history of producing reliable cars with decent resale values
    2) generally superior FE and drivetrain refinement and lastly
    3) the fact that some of the factories that make these cars is in the USA -keeping Americans employed important to me.
    I personally have a 'pro-Nissan' history (my previous 5 purchases) as opposed to 'pro-Toyota' one but feel that the 2GR is easily the best engine in this class including even the VQ in my wife's Altima. Haven't owned a Hyundai YET, but that may be coming soon, probably about the same time that I start keeping cars more than the 3 or 4 years (and 100k) I usually drive them ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You truly have a point on the resale value, FE and drivetrain refinement. However...Hyundai is catching on.

    As far as factories in the US...Hyundai has those as well, just not sure how many Americans are employed as the major assembly is done by computer/robots.

    I have no argument that the 2GR is the best engine in class...the numbers speak for themselves. However, if Hyundai keeps up with the improvement curve...they could soon offer what Toyota offers.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    If the Azera were discontinued, there would still be a price gap of about $5000
    Yes there would - which is my basis for this whole thread - do you really think that the current autobuyer given a choice between an Avalon for $32k or a Genesis for $32k is going to select the Hyundai product? Just because it RWD or closer to a 'sports sedan'?. You or I might,as well as most of the other posters contributing in this forum - simply because most of us can appreciate cars for what they really are. However I think Hyundai is going to have a helluva time selling the Genesis as a Toyota (or Nissan) alternate simply because with the Genesis the price hook has now dissappeared.
    Actually I believe the real mistake to be calling the Genesis a "Hyundai" in the first place - if they had thought to do what Toyota did with Lexus or Nissan with Infiniti or (on a slighly less ambitious level) Honda with Acura - then Hyundai isn't necessarily competing with itself on its own car lots - and further can now get what the market will bear if the Genesis really does turn out to be a genuinely 'underpriced' vehicle and a raging success. If things stay the way they are apparently planned, Hyundai may have no choice but to get rid of the Azera IF they want to sell any quantity of Genesis' IMO.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    do you really think that the current autobuyer given a choice between an Avalon for $32k or a Genesis for $32k is going to select the Hyundai product?

    Considering everything the Genesis offers...YES!!! If the question were the current car buyer choosing between paying $32K for the Avalon OR an Azera...I could agree with you. However, the Genesis offers quite a bit more than the Azera.

    You keep thinking the price hook has disappeared, it hasn't. They are offering what you pay$45K+ for in the premium sedans and they are offering it for the low to high-mid $30K' has the price hook disappeared???

    I do agree that Hyundai should have considered using the Genesis to launch a premium brand, but I really don't think they'll have a problem selling the Genesis or the Azera.

    The Azera and Genesis are two different animals, why do they need to get rid of the doesn't make sense. One is entry level luxury, the other is near luxury...there's a difference. The demeanor of the cars are going to be different in that one is FWD and the other RWD. With the proclomation of Hyundai using premium sedans as a benchmark...the Genesis will feel like more car than the Azera as well.
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