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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Move on please. :D :D :D :D :D

    Is that better? :shades:
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Posts: 154
    Ok boys, after hearing all the hoopla about the Genisis, I finally made my way over to the dealership last Sunday and looked one over. I will admit that the car is "somewhat" attractive. Nice lines. It should be noted that I did not drive the car ( dealerships locked up on Sunday ) so it was pretty much just a look/see. Peering thru the window, I can't say that I was overly impressed with the interior. To be honest I prefer the interior of my Avy to the Genesis. Also, the interior of the Genesis appeared to be alittle smaller than the Avalon. For most people, the difference in size is probably not a big deal, but I'm bumping 270 lbs so interior comfort is important to me. The engine in the Genesis cranks out a few more hp than the avy, but here again, the ponies generated by the avy power plant is more than sufficent for me. I did like the warranty on the Genesis, If memory serves me, it's a 5 yr, 75k bumper to bumper...much better than the Toyota 3 / 36K. The sticker on the Genesis was an even 40K. In my opinion too much for that car. For less $ I could buy a new Es 350 or even a new Avalon XLS or Limited. Another thing that concerns me, first year models.. never have been a big fan of "first year" production. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the Genesis is a good car, but for 40 grand, seems to me to be alittle more hype than the car is worth. jmo

    Roland
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You know...looking in and sitting in give you two different impressions. I thought the interior of the Genesis seemed to be no bigger than that of my Azera...until I sat in it. It is bigger than it appears to be once you are sitting inside.

    You COULD pay less and get an ES350, but you're getting a lot less car in doing so, dropping down to a mid-sized sedan as opposed to the large sedan that the Genesis is. As discussed in the Genesis Forum, the Genesis is more comparable to the GS in terms of what you get for the money. Best statment so far, LS size, GS handling & comfort...IS price.

    Oh yeah, the warranty is 10 yr/100K mi. powertrain, 5 yr/60K mi. new vehicle, 7 yr/Unlimited mi. anti-perforation, 5 yr/Unlimited mi. 24-hour roadside assist, 12mo/12K mi. replacment parts & accessory, 8 yr/80K mil emission & performance. Where did you see 5yr/75K mi??? :confuse:
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,468
    Also, the interior of the Genesis appeared to be alittle smaller than the Avalon

    I own an '06 AV XLS and I touched on this on the Genesis forum. I don't care what the #s say the Avalon is larger inside. I can fully extend my leg in my Av and the seat isn't all the way back (I'm 6'). In the Genesis my leg was slightly bent and the seat was all the way back. The back seat also had a touch less room than the Av behind the drivers seat (set up for me). It definately wouldn't be a deal breaker but the Genesis is smaller inside. As for the car itself it is a nice ride. The handling is great (much more controlled than the Av) and the interior materials are as nice or better than the Avalon. The car is quiet and there is plenty of power. However, Hyundai's 3.8 is not as refined as the Toyota 2GR it simply doesn't have the willingness the rev that the Yota has. My Avalon also felt quicker but benefit of the doubt the Genesis I drove was not broken in yet.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I don't care what the #s say the Avalon is larger inside.

    Hey Tjc78...numbers don't lie! ;)

    Seriously...I don't know how you had everything set up, but I'm 6'2", 215 lbs., and found there to be PLENTY of room in both the front and rear seats for someone of my size.

    I set the driver's seat up for me to drive and I got out and got behind the driver's seat in the back...the seat back was 2" away from my knees. It seems you're being unfair in comparing the two...you say in your Avy...the seat isn't all the way back and you have room, but in the Genesis the seat is all the way back and you don't. Why don't you try setting the driver's seat up for how you would be sitting if you were driving, and then get behind it.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,468
    I think i am comparing them fairly.... first of all the Genesis is plenty roomy for me. Second I am just noting that there is more available leg room in the front of the Avalon. I am not imagining things, the seat was all the way back and adjusted for me (down it the back, slightly raised in the front) the exact way I sit in my Avalon, and my leg was slightly bent. In my Avalon my leg is fully extended and the seat still can go back a little. As for the rear seat room I was comparing them with my seat set for me in either car. The Avalon was still a touch roomier. Like I said its not a deal breaker either way, just an observation. I still also contend that the interior #s should only be used as a guide. You must try out the car for your body type. Heck my GF has an Elantra and I can't believe that at 6' 275 I am comfortable in it (front only of course). However, we still take the Avalon most of the time ;)

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay, I misunderstood, I was thinking you were talking room behind the driver's seat. If I'm not mistaken, the numbers for the front seat put the Avy at an advantage, but just slightly in terms of leg room. This just goes to show that everyone not only drives differently, but sits differently too. I'm 6'2" and like you...I lower the rear part of the seat, raise the front slightly, recline the back a bit and I like my legs to have a slight bend in them...so for me...that was the perfect driving position

    One question, with the front of the seat raised, how can you possibly expect to have straight legs to the pedals since they are lower than the seat to begin with???
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,468
    how can you possibly expect to have straight legs

    Maybe I don't raise the front seat all that much. I know on some cars I raise it all the way, I never paid attention to how far up it is on my car... all I know is the Avalon fits me very well.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    all I know is the Avalon fits me very well.

    There is truly nothing wrong with that at all. Personally, I think all cars require their own driving position with each driver. I mean...I've paid attention to how I have sat in the various cars I've owned and all of them have required something different to truly find that comfortable position for me to be in. Some were more comfortable than others of course, but they all had their own quirk
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I will only admit that I would love to see 270 lbs again. My Azera easily accomodates a very comfortable driving position for me (don't really know if my legs are straight or not, but doubt it), with knee room behind the seat for another like me ( I know because I have been there.). Now my 2000 Avalon would do the same thing.

    I have to check out the Genesis, but a good friend, who often rides with my wife and I says the Genesis seems even a little larger than my Azera. But, I agree, perception may sometimes trump reality.

    Of course, my position is that ANY sedan that wishes to be in the category of mainstream sedan, should meet the 270 lb. test. The only " mainstream sedans" that I can never be comfortable in are from Pontiac (have not tried a G8 tho). Historically, the low roof line kills me before I can even get in the car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The Azera does indeed provide a very comfortable driving position, however...at 6'2", with the driver's seat in position for me to drive, it's not too comfortable for me to climb in the back seat behind the driver's seat. I have to sit with my legs open (a knee on each side of the seat back). In the Genesis...I was able to put my knees together and still have a couple inches between them and the seat back.
  • zierzier Posts: 9
    It might be better to compare the Genesis with other makes. The car has real wood, real metal, and not plastic grain or painted gray and chrome plastic of the Avalon and Azera, and offers a V8. Not all cars are super large, and luxury cars tend to have larger dimensions, but also larger seats so less leg room, especially in the rear. The Genesis is competing against cars that offer V6 and V8 offering, like the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, Cadilac STS, Mercedes E, Audi A6 but at a lower price. This is not just another iteration of the Azera.
  • zierzier Posts: 9
    Car sales of large cars are all down this year versus last year -

    The Impala is way down, but is really a midsize based on interior dimensions, but is the top seller of the cars listed (152K for this year so far versus 210K last year at this time).

    The Ford Taurus at 36K this year is now outselling Avalon 31K (Taurus sales are down (36K for Taurus vs. 42K for 500 at this time last year) but not as down as Avalon (31K versus 46K). The Charger is selling fairly well but down (64K versus 72K), the Chrysler 300 sales are way down (43K versus 72K). Azera (12K versus 14K) and Amanti (2.5K vs 4.5K) have never been big sellers compared to the others. The Buick Lucerne is also way down similar to the Avalon (around 31K for the year down from 47K). Mercury Sable is 12K this year versus 13K for Montego last year, but this is really the same car as the Taurus except for styling cues. The taurus X is going away with the Ford Flex introduction (wagons based on the Taurus) but sales are way down (22K vs. 34k) but the FLex is also on the Taurus platform (or should I say the Vovlo S80 platform since it really started life as an S80 before 500/Taurus).

    This segment will most likely see a shrinkage in offerings as I doubt sales will rebound. The Sable is supposed to go away in 2010 and Mercury will offer small upsacale cars (european fords coming here to the states) and lincoln large cars. I wonder if Hyundai (Kia) can keep 2 cars with sales that are lowest in the segment. It seems that the 300, Lucerne and Avalon have taken the biggest hits, and they are the more expensive offerings in this segment. The others are off, but not quite so much. The impala is off partly due to the Malibu, but the next generation Impala will be a true large car, and will most likely be more expensive and sales will drop, but Malibu sales will exceed previous generation and take the place of Chevy's high volume seller that was Impala.

    I have a feeling that in the mid to upper 30's, there is a lot of competition in the midsize near luxury offerings, so some may looking at the brand more than the car and size.

    There are not too many AWD offerings in this class which will probably change. I suspect the Taurus is fairing better then Avalon as people come out of SUVs, they can still have AWD.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Zier...not to burst your bubble, the Genesis does NOT have real wood on the interior. It is a faux wood like the rest of the Hyundai cars have, it's just their best faux wood product. The worst Hyundai offers is what you'll find in their Santa Fe's...looks like the wood grain was drawn on with a Sharpie pen.

    Also, the Genesis does have larger seats than compared to Azera and Avalon, but leg room was not sacrificed.
  • zierzier Posts: 9
    Mine did not burst. The wood on the doors surronding the switches is not real, as is th case in some other cars. But, on the dash, yes it is real.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Where have you heard that the wood trim in the BASE model Genesis is real wood??? Why would they use real wood on the dash and not on the doors? If there is any real wood, I would expect it to be the woodgrain steering wheel that comes standard on the 4.6.

    Indeed, IF any of the "wood" accents in the 3.8 are real, that would be a great. However, I highly doubt that the base model 3.8 would get real wood on the dash. The premium, premium plus and tech packages all come with leather on the dash. The 4.6 all have leather on the dash and the woodgrain steering wheel, which is more likely to be real wood than the wood trim on the dash of the base 3.8.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    None of the wood trims in the Genesis are real.

    Period.
  • jg585jg585 Posts: 9
    The seat in my ’07 Lucerne is SO uncomfortable is cripples me. I love the ride, but the seat is a killer. Dealer stuffed it twice. Still terrible. I have to use a Homedics seat pad.
    As it approachs 50,000 mi I want to dump it before the warrantee expires. My body likes a Nissan Altima. Chrysler 300 wasn’t bad. Honda Accord so so, VW Passat too short in the seat bottom and so on and so on. Too bad as I like the Lucerne.
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Posts: 154
    Jg585..... have to agree with you about the seats in the Lucerne. When I was in the market for a car, I nearly bought the Lucerne. Loved the ride, actually found the ride to be better than my Avalon, but I do remember telling my wife that I just didn't feel comfortable in the seats. I attributed it to my being 275 lbs, but my wife said the same thing when she drove it, and she only weighs 120 lbs. Other than that I really liked the car. Although I think for my purposes I was better off buying the Avalon.

    Roland
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,468
    Too bad as I like the Lucerne.

    I would definately give the Avalon a drive and also go test drive a Hyundai Genesis. Its a very nice machine, I drove one recently and am seriously considering replacing my '06 Avalon with one early next year when my lease is up.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • I'm tempted by the 2009 Maxima (I own a 2000) but just saw one (didn't get to test one) today, and it looks small. I could fit 5 adults in the 2000 but doubt I can do it with the '09, which has a big bump in the middle of the back seat.

    The Avalon looks like better size-wise, but am I giving up anything in performance? I love the woosh of the initial acceleration on the Max and would rather not give it up.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Avalon looks like better size-wise, but am I giving up anything in performance? I love the woosh of the initial acceleration on the Max and would rather not give it up.

    If you love the acceleration in your 222 horse Maxima, the 268 horsepower Avalon should be MUCH more than enough, and deliver notably better economy at the same time.
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Posts: 154
    Schmave717

    I doubt you'll be giving up anything in performance, in fact I believe you'll be gaining performance. The avy engine cranks out 268 Hp, compared to something like 220 on the Maxima. And as far as comfort, the Avalon has plenty of room inside and is very comfortable. One of the nice features about the avy is the back seat, the floor is almost completely flat so if you have 3 people in the back, whoever is sitting in the middle dosn't have to swing their feet over to one side or the other. Also the back seats recline, about 10 degrees. Dosn't sound like much, but on a long trip the people in the back really appreciate it. Good luck.

    Roland
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,468
    Comparing a new Avalon to your Maxima.... you will be gaining interior room, gaining straight line accleration, probably a MPG or two, but you will be losing some handling. If you like a stiffer ride, definately look for a "Touring" model. Having said that I own a 2006 XLS and love it. Has only been to the shop for oil changes and consistently gets over 20 MPG with my heavy foot and virtually no highway driving that isn't gridlocked. I like the balance of ride and handling which is on the soft side. Also, in this price range it wouldn't hurt to check out the Hyundai Genesis if you don't mind going to RWD.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • Thanks to all who responded. One follow-up, if I may. Any other cars I ought to consider? Handling is definitely a consideration, as I love the way the old Max responds in steering and grips the road in turns. I'm not a rear wheel drive guy, so the Genesis is out.

    Any other thoughts? I hate to go too expensive, but is there an Acura I should consider? Any GMs? Any other thoughts?
  • allavalonsallavalons PennsylvaniaPosts: 67
    If they are thinking of comparing the Genesis to a Lexus or Acura, as some have suggested in this forum, then they better think about creating a new division and brand the parts with the new name. They should learn from Honda. When Honda started making Acura you could open the hood and see a lot of parts stamped Honda, It took Acura years to overcome that gaffe..
    Same thing with VW and the Phaeton, a great car but no one would buy a $70K car with the VW on the front grille.
    The old sideways H does not have the cache to be able to go upscale and be successful in this market. If they compete against Toyota, Honda, Nissan and the Little 3 in Detroit they will be a niche with this vehicle, it's just a stretch to put close to $40K on the table for a loaded Hyundai no matter what they call it.
  • Do all dealers negotiate the capitalization price when leasing? How close to an actual negotiated purchase price will they normally go on a lease? Is the residual value something to negotiate? Do Infinity dealers have much control or does the Home Office tightly control leases and purchases? Thanks for any insight...Dana Hobart
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    If they are thinking of comparing the Genesis to a Lexus or Acura, as some have suggested in this forum, then they better think about creating a new division and brand the parts with the new name.

    Seems like these come up every so often:

    Just so you know, every comparo I've seen so far has pitted the Genesis against a luxury competitor, including here on Edmunds RE: Genesis V8 vs. Lexus GS350

    To give you a little background, the decision against the luxury division in the US, by the way, don't think it hasn't been reviewed over and over - the cost just far exceeded the potential benefit. Also, Hyundai has said it would take a long long time just to break-even and recoup the cost of initial investment.

    The luxury division is on hold for now, meaning it could still happen in the future. Right now, let's focus on the Genesis, made by Hyundai and as a Hyundai. Even if the product fails, and if nothing else, which the chance is equally as much as under the luxury brand (50/50), the transformation and intangible benefits from the Genesis line (sedan and coupe) to the fleet and the brand will be something hard to put into actual numbers or terms.

    Same thing with VW and the Phaeton, a great car but no one would buy a $70K car with the VW on the front grille.

    You forgot one thing - the Genesis isn't 70K. Did you know Hyundai has already sold more units of the Genesis in just a little over a month (through July) than the entire run the Phaeton had in the US? Or the fact Hyundai has already gone ahead of several of its luxury competitors last month, including the Acura RL, and is poised to take a cut and grab additional share in this lucrative segment? That said, it is still way too early to assess the Genesis, success or not, especially with the supply being at less than 100%, and the absence of V8 models from most dealers.

    To write off the Genesis, however, as you have noted, is a bit premature, in my opinion. If the last few years is any indication of the peformance by the Koreans, I would not bet against them in their continued goal to be a major player, something they've already achieved globally, by the way.

    A Genesis under a luxury brand would have certainly stickered for a lot more than the price as we see today. I don't know about you, but I would have no problem taking the Genesis as it is. A good car is a good car, an emblem does not make the car any better than it is.
  • allavalonsallavalons PennsylvaniaPosts: 67
    Those comments were not just mine. Last week many of those same sentiments were embellished b y the WSJ For reference:

    Sources:

    The WSJ: "Hyundai Makes Big Gamble With Luxury Genesis Sedan" -- Neal Boudette, August 20, 2008

    You can say what you will but perception in marketing is reality and the truth of the matter is Hyundai still carries the perception of a below Luxury class manufacturer as is the case with Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and others which is why Lexus, Infinity and Acura exist.

    Genesis may be a nice car, but so was the concept of Mazda's Millenium, and Mitsubishi's Diamonte. Good luck to them but history and perception is not on their side.

    This discussion on Genesis is not one of car favorites or fans of one car or manufacturer over another, it's the cold hard reality of perception and the forces of the market. Just like stocks, never fall in love with a stock or a car, always look for the next trend, or in hockey parlance, look to where the puck is headed not to where it is. Another big land cruiser is not where the puck is going, it's been there and has left, just look at what happened to Toyota and their big Tundra, can't give them away, nor Ford F-150's or Chevy Silverados. The Ford Crown Vic is now just for Police Cruisers and so on and so on.

    Luxury brands have their roots in the market where people are less impacted by swings in gasoline prices, rates, etc. they have disposable income to continue to buy what they want and the erosion in sales are just the marginal buyers, those trying to step/reach up that are left behind. It's just another reason that Genesis is a gamble and if they want to target Lexus or Acura the real Lexus crowd will not consider the Hyundai Brand as luxury nor will anyone else. They are mass producers and that will be their ceiling.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    What's a Diamonte? This was an article written by WSJ?
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