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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I sure hope not, since if it is, the Mazda Near-Lux sedan was called the Millenia, not the Millenium, and the Mitsubishi they spoke of is the Diamante.

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  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    So I placed the title of the article in for a search thru. Google news:

    http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=Hyundai%20Makes%20Big%20Gamble%20With%20Luxu- ry%20Genesis%20Sedan&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn

    Sure it came up as the first result, but the article itself was completely different:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121925072445356975.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Honestly, I think folks are just taken aback by the audacity of Hyundai to create a *GASP* luxury sedan. No...not the automaker, that for years, was the butt of jokes. Not the automaker that was known for making "disposable" cars (nowhere near as bad as Yugo or Daewoo). Not the automaker, whose niche is basic, bare-bones, value based transportation. Shame on them for stepping outside of the box. Who told them they were allowed to do that? There were folks that didn't seem to like my statement ealier that the Genesis would be the Benz/Lexus of the blue collar worker...what's so wrong with that? Blue-collar workers work hard and some desire a level of luxury that wasn't really affordable to them (without having to buy something small that didn't fit their family)...until now. It's truly not a negative thing at all.

    What folks need to realize is...it has happened. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Hyundai has broken the mold on what can be expected of an automaker. Think about it, they offer everything except a pick-up truck, from econo-box to full sized, tech loaded luxury (what other automaker can say that?) It just really seems that folks don't like the fact that they did do it. Must be folks that secretly love the Genesis, but because they've talked so negatively about Hyundai...can't be caught dead in one, but if a luxury division was made and the Genesis were marketed under THAT name....they would jump on it in a minute. Isn't that the same as a wife getting mad at her husband and taking her ring off and throwing it somwhere? I mean...even with the ring off yoru finger...it doesn't change your status...you're still married (that always kills me), right? Just like Hyundai with a luxury division...in the end, it's still a Hyundai product.

    Is creating a luxury division really the answer for Genesis? I mean...Hyundai is having a tough enough time fighting for the respecability it deserves now. So a luxury division backed by Hyundai...how much credibility would that carry? You think Lexus had it tough when Toyota unveiled it...and Toyota was a HIGHLY respected automaker at the time. I think Hyundai doing it this way will benefit them later on down the road should they actually decide to bring a luxury division to the table. I mean...entry level luxury with the Azera (arguable) and then the Genesis Sedan & Coupe (coming next year). I wouldn't be surprised if the Veracruz ends up being the luxury suv (it is, after all, directly compared to the Lexus RX350). IF Hyundai has success with those vehicles, the moving into the luxury direction would happen with more credibility and less loss on their part. Of course this is just my opinion.

    Anyway, with the intial buzz of the Genesis, it would seem their entire product line will benefit in some way, shape or form. Folks that would otherwise not go into a Hyundai dealership may just go to see the Genesis and see the other cars that they offer and realize they've got a pretty nice line-up. They may get in and realize the Genesis is too much car for their bank account and end up in an Azera or Sonata. The Genesis can do a lot for Hyundai in regards to bringing in much credibility and respect that many don't want to give the automaker.

    Please don't get it twisted, yes I have owned 3 Hyundais in my life, yes I'm a fan of Hyundai, but don't think for a minute that I feel they've gotten everything right. There's still work to be done, but...they are headed in the right direction and THAT...can't be denied by any stretch of the imagination. If you want to deny Hyundai that respect, then you've been living under a rock or with your eyes/ears closed for the last decade to know and understand where they've come from, what they've done since then and where they're seemingly headed.
  • allavalonsallavalons PennsylvaniaPosts: 67
    Sorry I could have provided the links, I don't use this site much so I didn't know if they would work.

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/91977-will-hyundai-s-luxury-car-be-like-the-vw-p- haeton?source=yahoo

    As for the spelling of the Mazda and Mitsubishi upscale attempts I wasn't spending time looking them up, they are all non-starters, but it seems people understood what cars I was mentioning.

    Unfortunately telling people they should think differently just doesn't work, and yes, perception is reality in the market. Nameplates like BMW, and Mercedes earned those reputations, and as you said, Toyota was already well respected and had to sink a lot into creating an upscale nameplate, and the point is Hyundai is not yet in that class and it's going to be an uphill struggle.

    As I said, a large V-8 is where everyone has been, but is not where everyone is going, and those folks looking for that big V-8 are the very folks that are comfortable with the Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc., and that is not going to change anytime soon. For now the best Hyundai can hope for is a near-Lux level and work from there. I hope they make it, it's always nice to have options in the marketplace.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    So WSJ wasn't offering the perspective you did.

    As I said, the Genesis is already more successful in a little over a month than the whole run of the Phaeton in the US, as for Mazda and Mitsu, we'll see...but the sign is good based on early reports.

    Allmet offered some good perspective, in my opinion. Who is going the guranatee here had Hyundai offered a luxury division, it would succeed?

    Even its luxury competitors, Acura RL, well, the Genesis passed its sales last month. The Lexus GS has never been a big seller either.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The funny thing is...I've been in a Diamante and I've been in a Millenia, for the life of me...I don't understand how they were trying to call them luxury cars. If anything, entry level luxury like the Azera. Why they failed with those cars...can't really say, it's not like Mazda wanted an arm and a leg for them. The Phaeton on the other hand...that was crazy. How do you go from a Passat to a Phaeton in your stable...that's over a $40K jump in price from one car to the next with nothing in-between (save for the V-10 Toureg which was just over $50K). Phaeton would have been better served being sold as an Audi.

    Toyota was already well respected and had to sink a lot into creating an upscale nameplate, and the point is Hyundai is not yet in that class and it's going to be an uphill struggle.

    Which is why I made the statement that the way they are going now is better than jumping feet-first into a luxury division. Use the Genesis to springboard into that since this will be the car that will seemingly bring the respect Hyundai has been lacking.

    Not sure what you mean by near luxury, the Genesis has already been tabbed a luxury sedan by various media groups and plenty of posters that have tested one. Americans have always been power hungry, so a V-8 will always be around, however...with gas prices as they are, they are forcing those of us with less expendable money to think more wisely in our purchases, so yes...the V-6 will be the staple of the Gensis line.

    Personally, I think Hyundai will fare pretty nicely after it's all said and done.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Who really cares what manufacturer builds the car? It is a fabulous car by any stretch of the imagination no matter who builds it. The fact that it undercuts the big buck Germans and Japanese is so much the better for it.

    It's time people woke up and recognized the car for what it is regardless of manufacturer. The time for arrogance is long past. This car will sell like crazy because people don't want to relinquish luxury for a less well-equipped car and as economic times tighten up, more and more will be seeking to maintain their luxury without paying so much. Hyundai has hit the nail square on the head in this regard and is to be commended for it.
  • There is a car that sounds tailor made for you.

    Go to your local dealer and test drive a Volvo S60 or an S80. The seats in Volvo's are legendary for comfort and the power and torque you get from the S60 (esp. in T5 form let alone the 2.5T) makes it feel much faster than it is, and the S80 V8 has 311/325 hp/tq while getitng 25mpg highway with even better seats than the S60. Before you laugh, go try it. I promise you won't regret it.

    FtB
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Who really cares what manufacturer builds the car?
    only about everybody? while I'll personally agree with this from a 'car guy's' perspective - I think it is Hyundai's apparent inability to recognize the importance of this ( as well as a really soft car market)_ that will unfrotunately doom the Genesis to a somewhat ignomious death.
    The Hyundai dealer remains one of most most frustrating and maddening places to buy a car AFAIAC. Recently shopping the Santa Fe/Tucson was 'treated' to a young know nothing salesman that knew less about cars (and what he was trying to sell) than my long dead grandmother. He was so full of misinformation it was pathetic and at the time (just before the Genesis' availability) knew little about this car as well. How can Hyundai expect to sell a car of the Genesis' obvious qualifications hampered by the dealership network (and reputation) it generally has?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Wow...already prediciting doom for the Genesis, huh? I actually see the Genesis doing better than the Azera simply because it is a better car AND because Hyundai is actually putting themselves behind the car. Since the Superbowl ads aired back in Feb, there have been more commercials for the Genesis in the last year then there have been for the Azera since it's been out.

    You are right on one aspect, lack of saleperson knowledge and proper customer handling could truly hurt the sales of the Genesis, but I don't think it'll spell impending doom.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I think the problem is the market. When times get to be uncertain, unemployment is going up, and the dollar is getting hammered... Those who have enough money buy the real deal. Those who could or aspire to buy something similar but at a lower cost... they buy the same luxury barge used instead.

    Buick is also dying for the same reason. Those with money buy the Cadillac. Buicks, at least new, are an exercise in futility, especially when a factory certified CTS can be had for under $20K two years used.(ie - cheaper than any new Buick - oops!)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    That could very well be the case, BUT...there's always those that must by new just because they don't want to buy soemthing someone else owned. Will that thinking change as times get harder...possibly.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'd tell you the same for the G8, and for several other 'not so economical' cars as wel that logically should be successfull. Hyundai's timing, while it may not be their fault, is horrid!
    I'd also contend to you that it is Hyundai's generally crappy dealerships that has also helped impede the sales of the Azera. A 30k Hyundai is still not generally 'accepted' IMO. It seems that the only thing that Hyundai dealers train their salespeople to talk intelligently about is how 'cheap' something is - something that is going to bother the heck out of me when I'm looking at those 30 or 40k window stickers on the Azera and Genesis. What you ought to be selling qualities inherent in both vehicles.
    It's like those same ads that Hyundai is flooding the football games with - I'm not really interested that the Genesis for example is $15 or $20k cheaper than a E whatever. I expect the Korean car to be that much cheaper and certainly don't expect anywhere near the same quality out of the Korean car as I get in the German one - what I'm more interested in though - is whether the car is worth the $35 or $40k that they are asking for it.
    One thing tough- those folks in Ulsan are no dummies - NOT identifying (or tying It too closely) with those 'H' dealers, they at least leave the door open to do with it what they should have done in the first place - the Genesis ONLY dealer.
  • was 'treated' to a young know nothing salesman that knew less about cars (and what he was trying to sell) than my long dead grandmother. He was so full of misinformation it was pathetic

    Captain... that reminded me of a situation I ran into when I was shopping for my Avy back in 2006. There are 2 Toyota dealerships in my town and naturally I went to the one closest to my home. As my wife and I were getting out of the car we were greeted by a very nice, but dumb as a rock, young salesman.. he asked us if he could help us and I said yes, point me in the direction of your Avalons.. he reply was, and I quote " Avalons, who makes them" ( hence my "dumb as a rock comment ) I just thanked him for his time, got back in my car and drove across town to "the other dealer".
    Now how stupid is that?

    Roland
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I don't think all dealerships are bad, but the competition is raising the bar. Example: local Toyota dealer, other than treating people like gold, will send them on a paid r/t taxi ride to within 10 miles of the dealership, while your car is in for service. Any type of service. So you can go home, shopping, out to eat etc. When you are ready to return, call the taxi service for a pick-up.

    To some people, this makes a difference, others not. To me it does and will sway a sale all else being equal.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    no I don't think that ALL Hyundai dealers are bad, just a higher percentage of them than some of the other makes. The car shopper has a right to expect some correct and even valuable information if we are out there trying to relieve ourselves out of $30 large or whatever. In my case, if I'm out looking over a $31k (!) MSRP sticker Santa Fe then the first words out of a 20 something green weanie salesman ought NOT to be about how cheap he'll actually sell me the vehicle. Observed the same type of approach over at the Buick dealer.
    My own observations seem to confirm that the Korean car lots must be the 'training' ground for the future 'stars' ;) of the car world. After all, it takes no talent special knowledge or ability if all you know how to do is sell price- which is about the worst reason to buy anything, IMO.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Captain, I hear what you're saying and to a degree...I agree with you. I think Hyundai, in a way is trying to say the car is worth every penny of the $40K they are asking by putting stuff out there like, pulling more G's cornering & better braking than a BMW 5-Series. The reviews from mulitple auto mags and the like have all raved about the quality of the interior of the car (it helps). Hyundai's climb into the top 5 of automakers also does the company some justice as well.

    As far as the dealer in Ulsan, you have think about where it is and the mind set of those folks they cater too...a $40K car to them is a Toyota Corolla to us, that being said...they won't look at anything less, thus that is why it is Genesis only. Heck, I don't think they even look at anything with FWD to be honest!!!

    Concerning dealerships focusing on the cheapness of the cars...it's not all dealers that make that mistake. There are plenty that know how to sell a car, it's just unfortunate that there's a lot that don't. I also think that many sales people rely on the fact that more and more folks are coming into the dealership already knowing about the car so they feel less inclined to get to know the product they are selling...and fail. The dealership I go to has a guy that's been a part of Hyundai from the beginning and he knew everything about the Genesis before it even got to the dealership. He was the same way with the Azera, which is why I passed on the '06 Sonata and waited for the Azera to show up.

    Funny how folks think Hyundai's sales will hurt and yet, the company keeps climbing the charts in terms of automaker standings. I'm beginning to wonder what the ratio of good Hyundai dealerships to bad Hyundai dealerships really is. If my area is an indication, it would be like 5 to 1 (good/bad). With those odds, Hyundai will be successful.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Funny how folks think Hyundai's sales will hurt and yet, the company keeps climbing the charts in terms of automaker standings

    It's not hard to climb when you're sales are horrible.

    I think Hyundai, in a way is trying to say the car is worth every penny of the $40K they are asking by putting stuff out there like, pulling more G's cornering & better braking than a BMW 5-Series

    I don't know if you know it, but the 5 series does not excel in every performance aspect. With the exception of consumer reports, the 550 is the benchmark sedan because overall it's does everything exceptionally. So touting a car stops shorter than the 5 series is not a big deal. Saying it has no fade after 10 hard stops like the 550 would be a big deal. (Genesis showed fade). But then again there is a huge price difference between the two and I would expect exemplary engineering from a $60K car.

    Saying the Genesis has most of the features of a 550i at 60% of the price is like owning a replica of the Cullinan diamond and believing it's the exact same thing.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    It's not hard to climb when you're sales are horrible.

    Actually...poor sales equate to poor product, right? Not to mention the past that Hyundai is overcoming. Their current spot on that chart puts them over many other automakers that are supposedly better. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

    I know the 5-Series doesn't excel in every performance aspect, but the fact that OVERALL...BMW is known for putting out performance based vehicles. The fact that a Hyundai can be compared in ANY way, shape or form speaks volumes for an automaker that couldn't even be compared to a Toyota 10 years ago.

    You're absolutely right about the brake fade and therein is the difference between paying that $60K price vs. $40K. However, how many situations will come up that brake fade will be an issue? Neither car will be raced by the average daily driver, right? Honestly...a non issue. Who in the world makes 10 hard stops in a row under daily driving situations???

    Actually....SAYING the Genesis has most of the features of a 550i at 60% of the price isn't like anything...it's stating a fact. Now if they said that the Genesis performed almost like the 550i at 60% of the price, now your statement would make sense.

    The biggest thing folks forget is in the end, we're talking about a Hyundai and I think that's what gets everyone all riled up. If Toyota/Honda/Nissan made a car (of the same class) that could hang with the 550i, it would be no big deal. However, none of them do, yet...Hyundai does and it's blasphemous to some. I mean, did everyone think that no other car company could come along and actually make a really good car and give buyers the opportunity to have a car that has what some premium sedans have at a fraction of the price...and be legitimate?

    This really is just too funny to me. Folks just can't stand the fact that their beloved Japenese and German cars are getting competition from....Korea, of all places!!!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Folks just can't stand the fact that their beloved Japenese and German cars are getting competition from....Korea, of all places
    and those same folks are and will continue to show such allegiances as they choose to spend that extra money for that 550 or whatever. In fact it is these same folks that expect and want to spend the extra money to get things that are truly superior.
    The Koreans, whether you want to admit it or not, have a lot further to go before they can even approach the degree of cohesive sophistication, intent and purpose found in many of those German and high end Japanese makes. And its a whole lot more than a ludricrous comparison of some spec sheets - something that those same Koreans seem to have difficulty understanding.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The fact that a Hyundai can be compared in ANY way, shape or form speaks volumes for an automaker that couldn't even be compared to a Toyota 10 years ago.

    One can make any comparison at all in the world. On these boards a Honda S2000 has been compared to a Ferrari. Is that a legit comparison, sure. Are they equals? Maybe. Do they evoke the same feelings? No.

    The G35 when it came out was a 5 series beater also. Forget the 3 series, it rocketed past the 3 series and was a 5 series beater.

    So yes, one can make any statement at all.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Actually my dear Captain, it is those very folks that are actually considering NOT paying that extra money, that is until they go into the dealership and get treated like a 3rd rate citizen. I've never said that Hyundai has everything completely right, but they are on the right path as evidenced by their climb up the charts in all categories.

    I'm not sure the Koreans goal is to duplicate the sophistication, intent and purpose of the premium brands. That being the case, the would be charging much more for their cars. The idea is to provide a level of sophistication, intent and purpose that closely rivals the premium brands and make the same affordable to the likes that would normally not be able to afford it.

    I think everyone is losing sight of what the real purpose is. There is no way possible for Hyundai to duplicate the likes of a Benz, Bimmer or any other premium sedan without using the same quality components and not charge more. Hyundai's niche is providing value based vehicles and that they do very successfully. Folks just can't accept that the hight end Hyundai is just as good as a mid-level offering from a premium brand. I think THAT is the point that's being missed.

    With the likes of the Azrea and the Genesis, everyone is wanting Hyundai to be more than it really is and it won't happen. They don't want to be BMW, Benz, Lexus or Infininti, they want to be Hyundai. The fact that they benchmarked premium sedans when creating the Genesis just means that...benchmarked. They found a way to provide the consumer with something similar to a premium brand sedan without having to pay the premium dollar. What's so difficult to understand about that?

    Does the Genesis outperform certain vehicles in certain categories...yes it does. Does it mean anything...well, it depends on who's watching. So the Genesis can pull more G's in a turn, I understand that aspect alone doesn't mean a thing because the overall driving dynamic isn't there to give it the feel the BMW does.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yes...statements can be made, but it's even better when they can be backed up. There isn't one statement that has been made about the Hyundai that can't be backed up with fact, right?

    Comparing the S2000 to a Ferrari can evoke the same feelings depending on who's listening. To the ricers out there...they'll get all orgasmic talking about the S2000 and look blank when mentioning the Ferrari. Talk to those of the Euro ilk and they'll bust a gut laughing when you mention the S2000 to them...so to be honest, it depends on crowd my friend.

    I had never heard of the G35 being the 5-Series beater. Hmmmmmmmm....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    so to be honest, it depends on crowd my friend.

    Bingo, give that man a cigar. One can back up anything at all. Not bashing any car, but rather emphasizing it's very easy to go after luxury cars, because it's the little things that make the difference for the dollars. HP is not everything as magazine editors note. I would rather drive a 528 than a Hyundai Genesis 4.6.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Oh...I'm not debating the little things that separate the premium sedans from the Genesis at all. However, someone like me that can appreciate those types of sedans and not really afford one...would definitely eye the Genesis for what it offers. Then maybe later on down the road, step up to something of the Benz, Bimmer, Audi, Lexus class. However, it's hard to deny that the Genesis doesn't offer the buyer a certain level of luxury. Is it full out luxury, no...not quite, but it's a level of luxury that's attainable to the masses (for the most part).

    The bottom line...Hyundai has created an interesting buzz for themselves and forced other automakers to take notice.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Cool for your strategy.

    The bottom line...Hyundai has created an interesting buzz for themselves and forced other automakers to take notice.

    Everybody takes notice when any manufacturer releases a car. But IMO, the top tier manufacturers are not the ones who should be worried.

    Is it full out luxury, no...not quite, but it's a level of luxury that's attainable to the masses (for the most part).

    They have to battle BMW 3/5 series, better car, less gadgets per $ and AWD, Infinity: M35/G35, the G35 being the value leader, etc.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Everybody takes notice when any manufacturer releases a car. But IMO, the top tier manufacturers are not the ones who should be worried.

    That is so untrue and even YOU know that. When Hyundai dropped the Azera, it hardly created the buzz that the Genesis did and the Azera was an all new offering on a brand new platform with a brand spanking new powerplant. The Genesis on the other hand has created a buzz that hasn't been seen in quite a while in terms of releasing a new vehicle.

    The G35 may be the value leader in it's class of car, but that wouldn't include the Genesis. Nice try though.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Based on your posts, obviously you have no respect for Hyundai. The Genesis sedan (and coupe) may not have served notice in your world, but it is definitely creating a buzz, to say the least, especially across the automotive industry. Toyota USA and GM just so happened to have each purchased at least one NA-spec Genesis sedan, yeah that was just for fun...sure :sick:

    Saying the Genesis has most of the features of a 550i at 60% of the price is like owning a replica of the Cullinan diamond and believing it's the exact same thing

    The Genesis is nothing like owning a replica at % of the price of the 550i. If you've actually driven these cars, especially back-to-back, you would have seen why the Genesis is getting its praises from the automotive world and the consumers.

    The Genesis is a Genesis, and the 550i is a 550i. What am I trying to say? The Genesis feels different than a 550i, the Genesis drives different than a 550i - is one better than the other? Hard to say; since both are so different. There are areas where the Genesis does well than the 550i, and vice versa. Personally, between the 550i and the Genesis, I would choose the latter, price difference or not, as the 550i feels a little too firm for my likes, while the Genesis nets a balanced ride for the driver and passengers - it is in between the GS and the 550i.

    It's not hard to climb when you're sales are horrible.

    Oh you mean horrible = #5 in the world right?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    That is so untrue and even YOU know that.

    If I were Pontiac I would be worried. Why get a G8 when you can pick up a Genesis for almost the same money?

    We can all air our opinions. My opinions are based on my thoughts, your opionions on your thoughts. Frankly how can anybody really know?

    When the G35 was introduced, fans of Infinity proclaimed BMW should pack up and go home for they will be bankrupt. Didn't quite happen that way.

    Sure there will be people posting how they bought a Genesis and say it's 90% of the car for 60% of the money of a top-tier brand. And others will be posting 90% of the car of a top tier brank is not good enough.

    Only time will tell.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Based on your posts, obviously you have no respect for Hyundai. The Genesis sedan (and coupe) may not have served notice in your world, but it is definitely creating a buzz, to say the least, especially across the automotive industry.

    And Infinity purchased a BMW to model after against. Nissan purchased a Porsche etc.

    Oh you mean horrible = #5 in the world right?

    How about let's start in the good ol' US of A? Cars sold abroad are irrelevant as you can't bring them into the US. Exceptions are models like 3/5/7 series which I believe are all US spec with some slight tweaks when sold with a left handed steering wheel.

    Finally, creating a buzz is different than being successful.
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