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Luxury Lounge

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  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Gentlemen,
    We're talking "value" here. Possibly unprecedented value. Certainly rare value, at a minimum. No one has said the Genesis is the preferred vehicle here. And, even if someone did, they certainly could still post on this forum... although they'd get a lot of heat.

    From my perspective, this car is a huge bang for the buck in the luxury arena... more like an explosion than a bang.

    Credit where it's due. That doesn't mean we all should go get one. But, then that wouldn't be so bad if someone here wanted to spend $40K and get a new and modern luxury car in the form of a Genesis.

    The new car luxury buyers will have to seriously consider the value of the Genesis. The bigger question is, can they own a $40K car, no matter how great, with the (minimized) Hyundai badge on it?

    Me? For the most part, I prefer to buy European (or Honda)! ;)

    TM
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,626
    Think Caddy and Lincoln Killer here. Start sweating, I say! :P

    BTW, 40K doesn't do it for BMW, Lexus, Audi, et al. for the size/class targeted by the Genesis. The price of admission is almost double so let's be real. 40k gets a stripped 335i (almost) or well optioned 328i...or an A4. Base luxury at best.

    Heck, a 3 YO off-lease 745il is $45 -$50K.

    The point is, this care is yelling at the industry that there is a luxury car in reach of many more buyers and that's what's great about this car at this time.

    Besides, what's wrong with a sleeper luxury car that saves you money up front? You can smile from ear to ear every day as you quietly float on down the road!

    I welcome new poster to this Luxury discussion that will own a Genesis!

    Regards,
    OW
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I welcome new poster to this Luxury discussion that will own a Genesis!

    +1

    I agree.

    TM
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Hey OAC,
    It's really good to read posts with your signature attached!

    As far as the Genesis topic goes, it's not new at all here, but Lou is the first to report an actual test drive, and Edmunds just released their first comp, so it brings the Genesis to the front burner again for a while. The Genesis is an interesting topic because it's a whole new situation that is mostly unprecedented, although it does remind me of the early LS release in some ways. I'm sure the Genesis will evolve over time, and you may be right about the necessity for a dedicated lux division of Hyundai. It's all to be seen. But, I really find this car and it's destiny to be quite interesting. Too bad the large V8 sedan category is experienceing slow sales, or we'd have an even more exciting story to watch unfold.

    Anyway, good to have you hanging around. :)

    TM
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,626
    Nothing new just something that tesll a continued story of missed opportunities for US auto.

    Although the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index doesn’t have the clout of other industry surveys – such as J.D. Power and Consumer Reports – it does give an indication of a customer’s satisfaction with a six month to three year old vehicle. The domestic automakers probably should start taking note of U of M’s study as all three performed poorly in this year’s survey.

    The Big Three had actually been gaining on their Japanese and German rivals over the past few years, but the Michigan automakers took a big hit this year. “The gap is extending. Detroit is falling,” Claes Fornell, the professor in charge of the study, told The Detroit News. “It’s all foreign at the top and all American at the bottom.”

    Fornell says that the decrease in satisfaction with the domestic brands is directly related to their truck and SUV-heavy lineups. Consumers have become fed up with high gas prices and therefore aren’t as satisfied with their large vehicles.

    General Motors’ Chevrolet brand fell the furthest in the study – slipping by 3.7 percent – and actually ranked just behind Kia. The only brands ranked below Chevy in the survey were Chrysler’s Dodge and Jeep brands.

    Despite the poor performance by Chevy, GM’s Buick was the highest ranked domestic brand, and the company’s Saturn division posted the biggest improvements. Coincidently, Saturn is GM’s most fuel-efficient brand.

    Ford’s Lincoln and Mercury brands fared well – ranking above the industry average – but the Ford brand actually came in below the average.

    Lexus, BMW, Toyota and Honda took the top four spots, respectively.


    Regards,
    OW
  • sanjaysdcasanjaysdca Posts: 269
    We are all talking about Luxury cars in general and (in this thread) Genesis in particular.

    So how do we define LUXURY?

    Quick search of "What is luxury" gives following answers:

    1) Very comfortable surroundings...Genesis meets it Hyundai does not

    2) Something excessively expensive: definitely not hyundai..May be Genesis is expensive FOR HYUNDAI..Hence a luxury

    3) Something that shows wealth: Down for Hyundai (Genesis)

    4) An object of desire, not need, by many: Not Hyundai..No value player here

    5) Something that shows the world that you have made it: Hyundai..Definitely not

    6) Lastly (acid test) how an attendent at a car parking place will treat a BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Hyundai?

    In the end there are only two mass luxury MB & BMW, Lexus & Audi are almost there, Infiniti has a potential, in my opinion, to reach there, Acura…. What should I say God bless Acura with the new guillotine designs.

    If you spend 40K in our image-conscious world what would you rather buy?
    - First a BMW then a basic 328
    - First a Merc then a C class
    - First Lexus then ES/GS
    Or
    - First a Hyundai then a Genesis

    I believe genesis should have been a separate brand. Hope it will have better life then Mazda Millinia
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,926
    What's your favorite Hater-ade flavor? :P
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Thanks TAG.. Yeah, I love reading from you as well. Your posts are so well informed... And yes, I have been missing from this forum for far too long. Its work and family... But I am back now.. somewhat... and will hang around some.

    Way back when, you and I (Dewey, Howard, and the gang) had many run-ins arguing back-and-forth on MB v Lexus v BMW. I quite understand the similarity Hyundai is going for here, but they are 15 years too late. Now, our auto knowledge and savvines is far advanced, and no gimmicky car can trick us, as the Genesis is designed for. I have to agree with OW with the claim that its more like the dying breeds in the Lincolns, Caddy and Buicks that the Genesis may target. Who wants to spend $40K on a Hyundai at this time? Would you rather not buy a BMW 3er, an A4 3.2 instead, or an IS350?

    But, I give Hyundai props for stealing a page out of the Lexus history books. Doing to Lexus what the latter did to MB won't work in MY2009--> for the simple reason that the large V8 sedan class has changed, and in the 6-cylinder world, Bimmers, Mercs, Lexi and Audis rule the roost. No room for a Hyundai unless in the lower class.

    Even Lexus never quite rose to the pinnacle of the head of the class that MB has ruled for the past 40+ years. And Lexus is no chop liver, with all the money, global brand and savviness of Toyota, and was never really able to dethrone MB from its lofty perch atop the marque brand name plate after 20 years go at it. Hyundai won't have that luxury (pardon the pun)....

    Good start from Hyundai, wrong time... That's my pov...
  • atlas7atlas7 Posts: 126
    First off, I have an LS460 that I think is fantastic....But, all of these comments about the Hyundai Genesis are reminscent of the Lexus LS400 when it was introduced...Of course there was skepticism, rightfully so, but you never know, could history repeat itself with the Genesis?.....This business model works, first it is cheaper and good, then it becomes less expensive and arguably as good or better...This will be interesting to watch and see how it develops over time..
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I agree with you in spite of OAC's well-written post. The case for the Genesis is just too compelling to write off. The Hyundai name is better received than many of us on this forum realize. Hyundai's "Think About It" television commercial during this year's Superbowl was so well received, it was nothing short of shocking. The response was incredibly favorable. And let's not forget that Hyundai is a large successful company with serious access to high technology.

    More advertising should be expected, and I truly believe that compelling "value" has a solid place in today's economy, which hopefully hasn't destroyed the large sedan segment... which would be most unfortunate for the timing of the Genesis.

    Yeah... The Genesis story has been and will continue to be an interesting story to watch unfold.

    TM
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I believe genesis should have been a separate brand. Hope it will have better life then Mazda Millinia

    Good point. The Genesis is probably closer to the Millenia/Amati experiment than the Phaeton. The Phaeton was never a good value, and VW of course already had a luxury brand. It was just the result of an unhinged Dr. Piech, and an army of yes men.

    After Amati imploded, Mazda attempted to compete with cars like the ES300 and I30 with the Millenia, which was arguably the better car, and better value at the time, but it didn't really work.

    I can definitely see the Genesis (especially the V6) stealing sales from the Avalon, Accord V6, Maxima, 300, and Taurus, and possibly from the ES350, MKZ and MKS, and STS/DTS.

    I don't see anybody interested in a 3 series, G35, etc. saying wow, the Genesis is so much bigger, I'll buy that instead! Just not going to happen. Different market.
  • ajamoajamo Posts: 18
    I was reading through the Genesis posts and just had to open another browser window and check it out.

    What bothers me about Hyundai is their inability to introduce a car without liberally lifting the design elements of competitors vehicles that are already on the road. There is simply no "vision" at Hyundai if you will.

    I liken it to building a new home. You trot out to the design center, often located in the model home itself, and you pluck your favorite features from the model home's carcass and voila, you have a home that looks eerily similar to your new neighbors' save the color of the siding.

    I envision a board room full of Hyundai employees leafing through photo after photo of the competitions' automobiles, then calling down to engineering and saying, "Okay, we've agreed, we'll go with the BMW 3-series tail lights, a tweaked version of the MB grill, and we need the rear pillar between the back/rear windows to look exactly like the Infiniti G35's; got all that? Great! Click.."

    That being said, yes, there appears to be value here. Fine. Lest many of us who were around when Hyundai introduced their vehicles to the U.S. forget, this is not "our" Hyundai. I'm sure, like me, many in my age group blindly think the line is garbage and that buying a Hyundai means becoming the butt of jokes, not being envied for driving the latest and greatest luxo-sport sedan. It's not that way any longer. Hyundai is trying to sell this car to us, but more importantly to the younger generation who will recognize them as a "player" in this segment in 10-15 years.

    Now me? I leased a black/black BMW M6 coupe 3 weeks ago and I can't describe the feeling I have when I start that 10 cylinder, 500 horse engine, sit in the driver's seat or even glance back at the car while walking up my driveway.

    I know I'm not talking about vehicles in the same class, but Hyundai cannot duplicate/deliver that feeling. That's luxury. That's the difference.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,626
    TM and you are my heroes! 135i and and M6...I forgot about the Genesis after your post! My color, too! :D

    Regards,
    OW
  • Hello : the ls 460 for 2009 was supposed to be ALL 4 WHEEL DRIVE MODELS .
    CHANGE : the first 2 months of production are all 4 wheel drive , then after 2 months , just in time for winter , the factory is going back to 2 wheel drive .
    there will be a choice of 2 or 4 wheel drive after the initial production of the first 2 months . My guess is , the extra cost , and loss of fuel economy of 4 wheel drive , caused them to Change their thinking . Originally , the dealers forced the factory to schedule only 4 wheel drive . 3 cheers for the dealers .
    right now ... today a customer can get a deal on a LS 460 , as the factory has "put on " some handsome "trunk money" ( cash discounts to the dealers)
    mitchell rowe
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Historically, the Lexus LS has not surpassed the S-Class in similar fashion and terms, yet it was consistently comped and considered a tremendous value

    I thought the LS kicked MB's and other luxury brands' butts in quality, reliability and price with their cars when first introduced, still do but not to a large extent :surprise: . I can't see the Genesis doing all that to Lexus. Without a separate branding, I think Hyundai can not bring their customer service to the level provided by Lexus, because that costs money which I believe Lexus has priced it into their product.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    ajamo, 100% agreed.

    "Ditto. I luv the US luxo believers who dis the Genesis as a cheap example of a desireable alternative that would never earn their $36K!!
    How narrow minded!"

    OW, I guess you're talking about me :P

    No I still say I wont dish out 36k for a Hyundai, particularly since an Acura or Infiniti can be had for the same price.
    My take:
    When it comes to luxury, the current TL still beats the Genesis. When it comes to performance, the G35 totally kills Gen.
    When it comes to resale, the Genesis will almost definitely fall.

    That said, I admit the Gen seriously represent value for the money. I disagree that it deserves to be compared with the likes of lexus GS, or even ES. Hyundai still got a long way to go. My guess is the Genesis will be cross shopped by people looking for comfy roomy sedan at good price, making Chrysler 300, Nissan Maxima, Avalon, and Buicks their possible competition.
    No I havent driven the Gen myself, but I sat in it and the comfort and quality is still far below even Acura's, but arguably equal, or even better than Infiniti G's. And its big inside, bigger than TL and Gs.
    Hyundai still has much to learn to achieve world standard luxury. Even the (formerly) mighty Cadillac fell, and havent been able to bounce back so far. Take Toyota and Honda as example, they both reached the top in...err... about 30 years? They crawled from th bottom, Hyundai needs to do the same, dont be hasty. The time may come someday. Until that day comes though, sorry, Hyundai.
    PS: this advice goes to Cadillac as well.

    I'm not being narrow minded, just being realistic. Unlike gen, I had doubts about the 1st gen LS400's chance for success, but had no doubts about its quality (my dad actually owned one), as the car had proven its worth in the form of Toyota Crown royal.

    Whew, I'm out of Haterade, anybody got some more?... :P
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    I guess the AWD should refreshes the LS line up. Are they giving discount on the RWD models only?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "Ditto. I luv the US luxo believers who dis the Genesis as a cheap example of a desireable alternative that would never earn their $36K!!
    How narrow minded!"


    Narrow minded if you diss Hyundai? Since when did Hyundai get on the buying list of posters in this forum? When I was looking to replace my LX and LS, was my shopping list wide and expansive to cover ALL cars? Of course not. I already filtered out and "narrowed" my choices and options down to a small list. If you call that "narrow-minded" so be it :confuse:

    As many have posited on this topic, Hyundai needs a lot of things to go right for the Genesis to be a market success - being cheap is only one of it. If Hyundai is aiming for the Gen-Y crowd who have little understanding about heritage and brands ahead of Hyundai, and would rather flock to Hyundai bcos of the Genesis, more power to their marketing group's vision.... Me I don't see a Hyundai competing at the BMW, Lexus, Audi, MB level... Not even close... Maybe 10 years from now.. maybe... But eating the lunch of Chrysler's 300M, or Nissan's Maxima, Toyota's Avalon or others in the near-luxury mid-30K range is absolutely a potential success factor for Hyundai. If their goal is set at Lexus, I assure you they have a lot of miles to cover to be in associative terms with Lexus... many here have already alluded to many of the missing ingredients in Hyundai's lunch plans for the lux-sport space.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,626
    Read: US Luxo Believers. I agree the Gen is far from MB, BMW, Lexus and Audi competition. The differences is what paying the extra money is all about.

    But the US presumed luxo's like Caddy, Linky and CRYsler are sitting ducks for this car. Prime Picken's! Texas Toast! ;)

    I guess this is a non-US-domestic board 'cause I don't see many domestic luxury owners from the "Can GM make Cadillac the Standard of the World Again?" board over here!

    Regards,
    OW
  • Hello Mr. gs430 : .... misunderstood ....somewhat ....
    the 2008's have trunk money right now .
    the 2009 LS460 will be all wheel drive in the first 2 months of production only .
    after the first 2 months , the LS460 will be a standard 2 wheel rear drive as before .
    THAT IS THEIR CHANGE OF PLANS AND STRATEGY .
    the jury is out , as to whether they will keep building 4 wheel drive after the first 2 months . not all of the usa needs 4 wheel drive , there is extra weight , and less mpg .
    mitchell rowe
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