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Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?



  • Interesting, your assumption is that Toyota which are close to becoming one of the biggest auto manufactures in North America with sales based on customer satisfaction, quality and higher resale will not be able to produce a full size pick up?

    No, Toyota definately produced the bloated Tundra, which is truly full-sized. Just don't put any significant weight on the tailgate when you load the bed.

    Second you state that the Toyota pickups of the past are not up to the task when it comes to work? Why then has the Tacoma still such a hot selling truck with one of the highest resale values in history.

    I was referring to full size pickups that the previous Tundras were trying to be. If you truly want to compare the Tacoma to full sizes, like say an F-150, then, the F-150 has up to:

    3000 lb payload and 11,000 lb towing capacity,

    whereas the Tacoma has:

    1350 lb payload and 3500 lb towing

    which means the F-150 has up to three times the capability of the Tacoma. I'm sure the Tacoma is a fine truck, but if it's everything you say it is, why did Toyota feel the need to build the craptastic bloated Tundra?

    I drove a 2006 Tundra 4x4 and I sold it privately in one day. It did lots of work, pulled my 26 foot travel trailer, my 20 foot boat, Numerous times in the mud and I did not have one issue with it.

    This may seem incredibly unbelievable to you, but people do all that and more everyday with other brands of trucks, day in and day out, without issues. You may be right, though, the 2006 Tundra may indeed be a better truck than the 2007, and Toyota may indeed be "moving backwards."
  • The Tundra is a great vehicle. ALL Toyota has to do now is RAISE their cash incentives and they'll blow GM right out of the water.

    Toyota already had to resort to the highest incentives of any manufacturer to move these things off the lot. When Toyota came up with "the truck that's changing it all," they probably didn't think that meant resorting to huge incentives to achieve sales that will likely still miss sales targets.
  • Groovski
    I wouldn't exactly say their sales are tanking but they are not as robust as Toyota had hoped, no doubt.

    You're right, they did design the truck for the weekend warriors. I drive a lot, and see quite a few Tundras here in LA. Not quite as many as new Silverados, but a lot. I would bet dollars to donuts that Toyota's Tundra sales in large metro areas are WAAAAY higher than in more traditional "working truck" regions of the country. And, I RARELY EVER SEE one loaded up heavy, in other words working. Hey, a LOT of work goes on in big cities, and lots of trucks are in hard use here. But not Tundras, interestingly. I am seeing 20:1 Big 3 trucks (new, not total) to Tundra in the work truck category. You see lots of Tundras on the road, but they are all empty, and usually with 1 commuter. Fords, Gms, Dodges have several guys inside and a bunch of gear/tools in the back, and maybe towing a utility trailer, obviously going to work. I suppose you can also say the Tundra is hard at work - taking the accountant to his office.

    Yeah, that tailgate thing was a shocker. Until then I thought it was maybe just teething pains, but now it is just cheesy. The tailgate is not welded, it is held together with putty. Good gawd, look at the photos!

    And another thing. When comparing problems of various models, it is important to keep something basic in mind re: sales figures. Assuming equal rates of problems of 2 vehicles, Vehicle A that sells three times more units than Vehicle B would be statistically expected to show 3 times more "hits" on a web site dedicated to discussing such issues. I've read posts here that say that Tundra must be superior, because the owners post fewer overall problems. Well, yeah, because there are three times fewer Tundra owners than GM or Ford!

  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    alot of posters are paid by manufactures or are just flat out unimployed since they seem to have plenty of time to post there dribble. why would anyone care if someone else bought a gm,chevy,dodge,nisson,or toyota unless they had a vested interest in the outcome? get a clew people they are trying to manipulate you and i think the are succeeding.(ITS CALLED MARKETING) make your own choices by your own experiences and enjoy your choice.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Cause we don't want anyone making the same mistake as you did.

    I would think that would be obvious by now. :confuse:
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    sure, no mistake made. and you will come back with a useless jab that means nothing and it goes on and on so what.
  • b2900b2900 Posts: 20
    I have not brought up the past problems with any of the big three trucks that would be fruitless, I know better then to throw stones in a glass house, however you simply seem to be a broken record on Tundra's issues that Toyota's are quickly addressing, after all it is a new model thus you will have new problems. I am a 53 year old self employed former big three owner. My past experience with these vehicles has resulted in me purchasing the Toyota products as an alternative. For me these are the facts, dealing with the sales rep with no admin fees to the fantastic resale on my trade that I never had with the big three to the service department with no horror stories rather total satisfaction makes me a happy Toyota owner. I rest my case, I would like nothing better than to see the Big Three learn from Toyota accomplishments. I refuse to bash the BigThree and the past problems they have and had. Personally my reaction was to purchase Toyota based on past experience.
  • mule4mule4 Posts: 36
    Your right it will never stop the toyota bashers will always be the way they are.They must have in their tiny minds they are the savior on man kind.I think they know they made a mistake buying chev. & gmc.So it makes them feel better to talk about tundra. I looked on the chev/gm forum.There was a poster with a 2007 truck having fuel problems truck was running rough.instead of helping him some posters started saying they did'nt have problems another compared him to a troll.they are in total dienal that their trucks have trouble too.The best way is not to reply to them they are in a world of their own.I want ever buy another chev. / gm.
  • Now folks is tellin that them hi-lux ones is fit for work? Fact is that them tundra ones just won't work that farm without bustin up quick. Most folks think that workin them trucks is drivin them ones to work! Well, we haul with them trucks, we haul with them ones day after day and year after year. We need full size trucks with haul, not trucks winner no magazine awards for bustin tailgates off! What part of this is folks not gettin? Is any folk out there really workin them tundra ones now? Bet they break quickest if them ones are. Facts is facts on this one now. Good luck with this one now!
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    In the 7 years that I've posted here, there has been only one individual that came close to being called a troll for complaining about his GMC. I posted solutions to his problems and never heard back from him again. If you know of more incidents where GM owners have been called a troll for posting their problems could you provide a link? GM owners are not in the habit of living in denial.

    Want to know the quickest way to be called a troll? Post a Tundra recall in the Tundra forum.
  • mule4mule4 Posts: 36
    Look on 2007/2008 silv./ serri active fuel mangement was your post # 5 10/19/2007. Chev/ gmc forum. You made the statement.I'll not reply to you again It is a matter of time before you start having problems But you want admit it.You & your family have a good x-mas
    happy new year & MAY GOD BLESS
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054

    My comment was directed to lionclaws. He was insinuating that the person posting was a troll. I merely defined what a troll was. Nothing more nothing less. The fact that the original poster posted once with a blanket comment on the GM AFM doesn't identify him as a troll. Merely a discontented owner venting his opinion. The fact that he never returned doesn't mean anything either. I have posted tons of replies to questions never to hear from the original poster again and not knowing if I had helped them or not.

    I've had my Titan close to 3 years. No issues. Probably dump it in two and get another truck. Who knows the Tundra maybe perfected by then and even offer a diesel. Good luck with yours!!

    Mele Kalikimaka!!

    P.S. Since you're not replying to me and maybe curious as to what it means try google and click under Bing Crosby...
  • That Dave40 had that knowin on these trucks now... What happened to that Dave40? What does that Dave40 have to tell on these new tundra ones? Good luck on this one now!
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    One day Toyota may unseat the domestic full-size trucks in popularity. Toyota is a great company with great design and engineering talent. They have a well-deserved reputation for quality. But the '07/'08 isn't quite up to the task.

    First off there's a lot of Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pick-up truck loyalists out there. It'll take a lot to make 'em switch. Then there's me. I've owned Japanese all my life including 2 Toyotas. When picking my first pick-up I chose a GMC Sierra SLT 4x4 over a Tundra Limited 4x4.

    Test driving both, there's no significant difference between the GMC 5.3 and the Toyota 5.7. The Tunrda's 6-speed automatic has a tad less noticeable shift surge if you stomp the gas but it isn't that noticeable. Maybe a stopwatch can tell the difference but off the test track and in the real world both are first class rides.

    The deal breaker is Tundra's sub-par interior. On an absolute scale, maybe it rises to almost average but in the price range the Limited sits in - most on the lot were well into the $40k range - its way out of it's league. 6-way driver and 4-way passenger seats don't begin to compare with Sierra's 10-way driver and passenger seats. Tundra features lots of hard plastic and some rather cheap looking knobs. This is the stuff GM used to be criticized for. The Sierra SLT's interior, by contrast, matches that of a near-luxury car. Tundra offers a few clever storage areas like pop-open eye glass holders on the ceiling but a lot of their little cubby holes are impractical.

    When you're looking at a vehicle over $35k you expect some extras. The Sierra's command console offers a lot of information like oil viscosity. Sierra also offers OnStar with GPS tracking, engine diagnostics, etc. Forget Tundra. One oddity. A standard feature is to have temperature and a compass display in the rear view mirror. Sierra does this. Tundra displays the compass there but oddly hides the temperature in a hard to read, dimly lit dash display. Don't buy one without running boards because they stand taller than most trucks/SUVs and are a pain in the rear (pun intended) to climb into without one.

    It's rumored Toyota delayed their Tundra to match the interior in the Sierra/Silverado. They didn't delay enough because this is a rare case of Toyota's interior being far inferior to the competition.

    Quality is the hallmark of Toyota. The Tundra has been recalled twice. For fun Google "Toyota 5.7 breaking camshafts".

    Compare stickers. In most configurations you'll find Tundras thousands more than a domestic truck. The sticker on my Sierra SLT was under $37,500. The cheapest extended cab 4x4 Tundra I could find on the lot was over $39k. Note, I'm comparing an '08 Sierra to an '07 Tundra. The salesman didn't bother showing me the '08s because they weren't in my price range (considering incentives). And the cheaper Tundra lacked options like parking assist the Sierra had. The Tundra is no bargain.

    I'm sure Toyota will eventually recover. It's not a bad truck by any means. But it's a poor value and requires some upgrades.
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    check out post 368,does the shoe fit.
  • b2900
    That is interesting. My experience was exactly the opposite of yours. I am a former Toyota owner. Had a 85 4x4 pickup and a 92 4x4 pickup. The 85 was great, 92 very mediocre. Had several HORRIBLE repair experiences at the local Toyota dealer with the 92. Looked at all offerings, incl. the new Tundra, and bought the Silverado.

    The last Chevy I owned was a 82 Z28 Camaro and it was just OK. Nothing to scream about in quality or performance. So, my decision was based on quality decline of Toyota, as well as a fresh look at Chevy. I also looked at the Ford and Dodge. Both looked pretty damned good overall. Toyota has bit off a chunk, and it will be interesting to see how they repsond to the less than stellar start. In the olden days, Toyota would have had them for lunch by now but the Big 3 have learned that they have to compete or die. They have circled the wagons around their p/ups and have held the line nicely. But that isn't enuf for their long term survival. They now have to reclaim a big chunk of the small and midsize family cars. I see evidence of that in the new Impala. Isn't competition wonderful for the consumer!

    And for the record, I would absolutely consider another Toyota vehicle in the future. In fact, depending, I may take a look at the FJ in the next year or 2. It is overall a great auto company.

    I think we can probably agree, based on our individual experiences, that overall Silverado has improved, and the Tundra has declined in quality. The relative amount of quality improvement and decline is the issue at hand. Would you agree with that?

  • b2900b2900 Posts: 20
    Dear Offroader. Well written I totally agree with you with regards to competition and raising the bar when it comes to quality regardless of who the Auto Company is. Personally for me, respect is earned and I reiterate that I loss faith and respect in the Big Three from major repairs at my cost and lack of compassion on behalf of the company that built the vehicle in questioned. However that is not to say that I have shut the door on North American vehicles’. The Silverado is an awesome truck and I sure with major improvements, and it has a fantastic rugged style. One can't but think what will they do to improve any of these trucks as they do each year?
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    "check out post 368,does the shoe fit."

    I'm paid by GM to post favorable reviews? That's a hoot.

    Get off your butt, visit the showrooms, and check out the interiors of the Sierra SLT and the Tundra Limited. If you think the Tundra's is superior to the Sierra's best get your eyes examined. Test drive them. If you can find significant differences in ride please feel free to post them here.

    One thing I think I forgot to mention is Sierra's 5-star crash rating and 4-star rollover rating. Tundra is 4-star crash and 3-star rollover. It's on the stickers so there's nothing to spin.

    The disparity of sticker prices has been pointed out in reviews so it's public knowledge. But since MSPR/invoice doesn't really mean that much in an era where it's out in the open (dealers/manufacturers have found ways to hide the profit) that isn't a big deal until you haggle.

    I pick up Monday a fairly well loaded '08 Sierra SLT 4x4 for just under $30k (not counting tags, title, and taxes). I do have an advantage of having about $3k in GM card incentives on top of everything else. The cheapest '07 Tundra Limited 4x4 I could find was stripped except for the TRD suspension and they wanted almost $34k for it and wouldn't budge despite the salesman boasting he sold one the day before and "didn't make a penny profit." He didn't bother showing me an '08 (they were stored somewhere behind the dealership) because they wanted a lot more for them.

    One professional review I read stated the sticker on the Tundra base model and high-end Limited was so much higher than the competition they weren't even trying. The mid-price Tundra was close to the GM's. The Tundra 4x4 has a lower quality rating than the Sierra 4x4. I'd go on to state the sub-par interior and mediocre crash tests indicate Toyota's a bit complacent.

    The Tundra's running on Toyota's sterling reputation and on an impressive power train which edges out Sierras and Silverados in track tests. But, other than bragging rights, do I care if a Tundra can do 0-60 a few ticks quicker? I'm buying the entire package.

    Once again, Toyota is a great company. They're determined to become king of the hill in pickups like everything else. They may get it right the next whack they take at the problem but the '07/'08 Tundra ain't it. I agree with another poster who said the competition benefits the consumer. Without Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all putting out high-quality pick-ups I'd hate to guess what sort of ho-hum pick-up GM would be producing.
  • b2900b2900 Posts: 20
    You said it yourself, not I, It is a fact GM keeps discounting their vehicles and trucks literally to the point they are losing money,simply because of poor sales. In turn explains the direct result of the poor resale there loyal owners have when trading these trucks in, Sknabt that’s the package you just purchased. Toyota to the best of my knowledge have never shown annual losses any year since they have been in business. Common knowledge is the higher resale value that a majority of Toyota owners enjoy.I give you a video and ask you to watch all of it, then feel free to write me a book on the proof of seeing the performance of your GMC towing ability and braking. I am sure many reviewing this blog will see that I do not need a eye exam however you may need a reality check.
  • That tundra factory is trickin folks with that video! Them big3 ones is runnin 6 cylinders why them forien ones is runnin them v8 engines! Them big3 ones with the 6 cylinders is keepin up with the forien ones too! Don't be tricked, if you want one for workin and haulin, get them big3 ones... the ones that last! If your lookin to work that hiway, or chasin after that truck fad... get that tundra. But don't work that tundra hard, or it will bust quick. Facts is facts! Good luck on this one now!
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    That's great, b2900, post me a video of a Tundra crossing the line .51 seconds faster than the next faster competition. Did you buy a Tundra to stop light race with other pickups? If that's what's important to you then buy the Tundra and have a ball.

    People who care about safety would pick the Sierra/Silverado over the Tundra. Personally, my 2nd set of wheels is a Honda S2000 so obviously safety isn't a big concern.

    My Sierra won't be a work truck nor a hauler. I haven't compared the stats down the line in load and hauling for both vehicles. If one has an edge then that may sway some folks.

    I'm looking for more versatility than my beater trade-in SUV. I also need comfortable, highly adjustable seating. That's where the Tundra starts dropping the ball. And while cheap knobs and cheap plastics don't have any practical effect functionally, who wants to pay top dollar for a vehicle with a sub-par interior? Heck, it's why people have been fleeing domestic brands for years.

    You sound like my Toyota salesman. Pay more up front because the GM depreciates faster. Yet, he had me comparing an '07 Tundra to an '08 Sierra. I was already eating an extra year's worth with the Tundra because the '08s cost too darn much. But, to be frank, that's only a persuasive argument for folks who frequently trade in. I keep a vehicle 10 or more years after they're all used up. The Isuzu Trooper I'm trading in is limping so bad I'm nervous it won't make it to the dealer when I trade it in.

    Obviously, there's no 1 shoe fits all answer to car buying. For example, the GMC dealers in my city are far better than the Toyota dealers. But I'm sure others have the exact opposite experience.

    But I don't see a single solitary area where a GMC Sierra SLT isn't going toe-to-toe with a Tundra Limited. One would assume Toyota's legendary quality would make the choice easy but they've dropped the ball on this one. In a 4x4 configuration, Consumer Reports rates the Toyota lower than the GMs. I didn't compare the work truck interiors but the top-of-the-line interior of the Sierra far surpasses the lackluster Tundra Limited's. A final disadvantage is the Tundra wants the buyer to pay a premium price in most configurations.

    I see a lot of the new Tundras on the road. Their sales are up better than 50%. So super-sizing the Tundra is a marketing success but I feel Tundra is an example of Toyota riding their reputation. I wonder how many Tundra buyers even looked at/researched a GM, Ford, or Dodge? I bet many just assumed they're crap and paid whatever Toyota asked for.
  • mule4mule4 Posts: 36
    I bought a 2007 tunder off road 4- wheel drive sr5 loaded less leather.$34500 cash. I am pleased with it. Only had torc conveter problem I got burnt on 1 new chev truck & 1 new cadillac & will never buy another.The only thing that was good about Gm.was i made enough buying & selling their co. stock when they were negotiating their contract to pay half of the cost of the tundra.Now their stock is no good.
  • b2900b2900 Posts: 20
    Nope I did not purchase my Tundra as a result of the attached videos from the YouTube video, Frankly I never seen them till after my purchase. Sknabt I use to own North American made vehicles and frankly that’s why I now own Toyota. I refuse to knock the Big Three I wish only to share my personal experience.
    What is important to me is safety, 4 star Toyota to a 5 star G.M. should be considered without question However most accidents are a direct result of not being able to stop fast enough. The difference between the G.M. and the Tundra could be the difference between life and death Be either truck empty or loaded.
    Sknabt sincerely I am not here to kick stones. I have stated that before. I do trade my trucks every three years so resale is very crucial to me my budget and the money I do not have to put out. You have your preference and I mine. Personally I am glad this full size Tundra came out. I feel it looks tuff. It is ready for work. It has Toyota ingenuity along with Toyota quality. If my Tundra presents any major problems my feeling towards Toyota would be no different than my feelings toward the Big Three. Until then Toyota has earned my respect since 1997.
  • Heard that driveshaft is bustin on them tundra ones, but what about them pumpkins? Any folk work that tunda in them fields yet? Once that factory beefs that driveshaft, is them pumpkins next part to bust? Good luck on this one now!
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    b2900, I certainly can understand people buying Japanese based upon reputation, particularly Honda and Toyota. In fact, reliability is pretty huge with me because I own for the long-term. Most cars are reliable for the first couple of years. It's year 5 and out that exposes the real dogs.

    However, someone like you who buys a Toyota then trades it in every 3 years shouldn't worry about quality. Sure, some people get lemons but it's the rare vehicle that isn't going to be pretty trouble free for 3 years. Plus, all carry warranties that long.

    That said, the Toyota only makes sense in a RWD configuration, at least the '07 I was looking at. The 4x4 Tundra is "worse than average" according to Consumer Reports. Maybe Toyota's 2 recalls fixed the problems. We won't know for a while.

    I can understand resale being important but only if the vehicles you are comparing cost roughly the same. My experience is an '08 Tundra Limited is thousands more than a comparable '08 GMC Sierra SLT (the Silverado is cheaper still). It becomes a time value of money calculation. Pay more now with money you could use or earn interest on or get more depreciated dollars (inflation) in the future. I didn't look at long-term trade-in values but I have a feeling most of the assumed Toyota payoff advantage is illusionary.

    I realize there's a lot of folks out there who will only buy Ford, Dodge, or Chevy trucks. I'm not brand loyal but I can understand it. Toyota's reputation is creating Toyota fans, too. I'll be the first to admit there's no prestige in owning a GMC. People assume they're crap. GM has trashed its reputation. People tell me I'm crazy all the time.

    While not brand loyal, the $3k GM credit makes me look there first. Frankly, I was amazed how good a job GM did with the Sierra (and the Silverado). The SLT interior blew me away. I was pretty much sold when people - the ones who said I was crazy - convinced me to look at the Tundra. I had researched the Tundra so knew of the quality problems but, because it was a 'legendary' Toyota, kept assuming it would be better built. Looking at one on the lot and test driving one convinced me otherwise.

    Admittedly, I didn't look at a Ford or Dodge. The GM credit was too big of an incentive. I did seriously look at the smaller Nissan Frontier (major disappointment in all areas) when I was flirting with smaller trucks. I'd be lying if, after owning Japanese going back to the early '80s, I wasn't nervous about owning a domestic brand. But for once I don't see an advantage in paying a huge premium for a Japanese brand, specifically Toyota.

    All full-size trucks are so good, IMHO, there's no reason to pay a huge premium for one over another. Take away the $3k credit, maybe I seriously ponder Nissan Titan or Ford F-150. Toyota, IMHO, is a poor value given the competition.
  • b2900b2900 Posts: 20
    Point taken and well composed. Sknabt a few post back you mentioned my Toyota sales rep. I have had the same one since 1997. A comment he made to me, when questioned the price of the Toyota I was considering (not $500.00 ) off list back in 1997 was "The first Toyota is the only expensive one" So far he has been totally correct
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    FIRST, Motor Trend only considers NEW OR REDESIGNED vehicles for the vehicle of the year awards. Accordingly, the Tundra was about the only full sized truck that qualified.

    There are a few build facts that you just cannot escape when comparing the Toyota to the Ford F-150 for instance.

    The F-150 uses a fully boxed frame from bumper to bumper with hydro forming under the engine and cab.

    Tundra uses "tripletec" this is hydro formed and boxed under the engine only, boxxed under the cab and open c-channel under the bed.

    Ford F-150 frame is much strong.

    Tundra uses cross beams in the frame that are riveted to the side rails.

    Ford F-150 uses cross beams that pass through the side rail and the are riveted on BOTH SIDES of the side rail.

    As a result the Ford F-150 frame is MUCH MUCH stronger.

    Ford has more trucks on the road than anyone else with over 250,000 miles on them.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    "FIRST, Motor Trend only considers NEW OR REDESIGNED vehicles for the vehicle of the year awards. Accordingly, the Tundra was about the only full sized truck that qualified. "

    While it is true that a new or redesigned vehicle is a requirement, the Tundra was redesigned for the model year 2007 and NOT 2008. So the question remains why was the Tundra the MT Truck of the Year for 2008 when it was introduced in 2007 as a 2007 model? :sick:
  • b2900b2900 Posts: 20
    I remember the Ford Taurus being the biggest selling car then came the Camry. This blog is exactly about Tundra doing the same in the future. I am sure you may be correct that Ford has a superior frame but I am confident that Tundra will perform just well. Ford’s record speaks for itself they have far more issues with quality then they care to admit. Having the distinct honor of highest recalled car in history the Ford Focus. With regards to Ford tucks having the highest number of truck with high miles on the road likely is correct as well but rest assured that is being challenged one Tundra at a time.Ford boast quality is job #1 Toyota simply build quality, its their way, not their job.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Wasn't in production yet. The Motor Trend "___ of the year" testing is done in the fall, and the stipulation is, the vehicle must be in retail production when the testing is done... otherwise it qualifies for the following year's competition.

    kcram - Pickups Host
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