SOA Warranty Problems & Questions
I have a 2006 Outback with 18,500 miles. The first 7,800 were driven by a Subaru employee (factory car). A week and a half ago in anticipation of an 800 mile round trip I checked all the car's fluids. All were fine with the exception of front differential. I added 1.3 quarts of mfg. specified gear oil.
Arrived at destination with front end noise. Took the car to the nearest Subaru dealer who confirmed noise but said it would take them a week to fix it. Called the selling dealer who said DO NOT DRIVE call Subaru 800 number.
After discussion back and forth, SOA told me to get a quote to flat bed the car home 388 miles at 3.00/mi. Said they would pay if warantable repair.
Called the local dealer to say that I would leave the car with them and would retrieve after repair. Was told that they could not fix it in a timely manner so I should take SOA up on their offer to pay for transportation.
Transported the car to the selling dealer (even though there were four other Subaru dealers in the area where the car was located.) Without ever looking at the car he said that it would be $1,500. And they had no idea why SOA would authorize that expensive a tow.
Selling dealer called to say that the car had bad bearings in differential they were on order and car would be done the next day. Servise manager called back to say that the first call was a mistake. The co. rep had determined that the gear oil was wrong and they would not cover repair.
More than a week later the car sits at the dealership and I'm not feeling a lot of love from Subaru or the selling dealer.
Any thoughts?
Arrived at destination with front end noise. Took the car to the nearest Subaru dealer who confirmed noise but said it would take them a week to fix it. Called the selling dealer who said DO NOT DRIVE call Subaru 800 number.
After discussion back and forth, SOA told me to get a quote to flat bed the car home 388 miles at 3.00/mi. Said they would pay if warantable repair.
Called the local dealer to say that I would leave the car with them and would retrieve after repair. Was told that they could not fix it in a timely manner so I should take SOA up on their offer to pay for transportation.
Transported the car to the selling dealer (even though there were four other Subaru dealers in the area where the car was located.) Without ever looking at the car he said that it would be $1,500. And they had no idea why SOA would authorize that expensive a tow.
Selling dealer called to say that the car had bad bearings in differential they were on order and car would be done the next day. Servise manager called back to say that the first call was a mistake. The co. rep had determined that the gear oil was wrong and they would not cover repair.
More than a week later the car sits at the dealership and I'm not feeling a lot of love from Subaru or the selling dealer.
Any thoughts?
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Comments
I have an older OBW, so things might have changed depending on what tranny you have (4 or 5 spd auto, 5 spd manual). Making an assumption that you have the 4 spd auto, a full fill of the front differential after a complete drain is around 1.25 qts, IIRC, of 80w-90 gear oil. This is the little dipstick back along the firewall.
If you put 1.3 qts in, then either it was completely empty to begin with, or it is now grossly overfilled. Also (assuming same front diffy as I have), did you use the correct gear oil?
What did the dealer that confirmed the noise say it was?
Why did the selling dealer say it would cost $1500, when the drivetrain is covered by a 5yr/60k warranty?
Did you get a rejection from the area rep with an explanation in writing, clearly stating their findings and reason for rejection?
Steve
-mike
Prior to that I had had no noise or trouble with the car. There was no leakage before or after from the diff.
I took the car to the closest available dealer in the other city and was told it would take them at least a week.
Dealer to first inspect it said it was warranty and based on that assessment I finally agreed to have it transported.
If in fact the diff was empty, why was it empty? There was not and is not now any indication of any leakage.
I own a my04 OBW too and my son owns an older Legacy. I've had no problem with the 04 but it came from another dealer.
I hate to be cynical but I'm wondering if the factory rep looked at the $900. transportation charge on top of the $1,500. repair and decided that it was too much.
Additionally others have suggested that the $1,500 is retail and SOA wouldn't reimburse the dealer that much or as quickly as he can get my check. From the very beginning when I called him from 400 miles away I had a sense by the way he talked that he was predisposed not to find a warrantable problem.
I cannot tell you how much I am hoping that I am off base and that we can work out a solution because I am now concerned about warranty coverage on both OBW's and don't want to face a similar dilemma in the future.
Have not received an official rejection letter from the Co. it was verbal from the service manager. If cannot resolve it I will ask for a lot of documents including a copy of the 152 point check.
As for the tow home, I'm still not sure why they would agree to it, as the contracts clearly state that it is to be fixed at the closest dealer.
Also if your diffy was low, and it was under warranty, why didn't you bring it to your local dealer when you noticed the problem? That is an indication that there was a consumption or leak associated with the front diffy.
-mike
Took the car to the dealer at 8:30 a.m. the next morning. They again checked all of the fluids and drove the car. I cannot say if they opened the differential. They didn't say and I wasn't in the shop to observe but told me it would take a week to fix. I can't imagine that they could diagnose a problem that would take a week to fix without some kind of detailed investigation. Their invoice indicated that they had confirmed the noise, confirmed that there was no problem with fluids and it was a warranty claim. They also said that they believed that I "might" (a qualified might)be able to drive it home and then have the selling dealer fix it.
I reported earlier the selling dealer's response. DO NOT DRIVE IT because we won't warranty it.
I don't believe I'm being unreasonable but it's quite evident to me that there were a number of mistakes made,maybe the selling dealer was going to replace the fluid under the "152 point pre-sale prep" and forgot to refill. Maybe Subaru never put it in in the first place, perhaps the first dealer should have agreed to keep the car and repair it. Perhaps I should have insisted. Perhaps I should have taken it to the selling dealer rather than adding fluid myself.
I think there needs to be some inherent reasonableness in this whole situation. If the first dealer had said it will take a week, we'll give you a loaner it's inconvenient but we'll do the best we can. So be it. Or if Subaru had said we'll pay for transportation because we want your car back with the selling dealer warranty or not. Again, so be it. But this is strange.
-mike
How did you know th fluid was "clean" unless they did a drain and fill, I belive the diffys have a magnetic plug that will collect any metal shavings so the fluid will likely look "clear" even if you sheared off a piece of the diffy.
-mike
I don't know what a dealer does to come to that analysis.
And I did try to leave the car with them. There response was that they didn't want to turn away business but they didn't think they could fix it in a reasonable time and I should take Subaru up on their offer to reimburse towing.
Now that we have asked questions, and you have provided reasonable sounding answers, you need to collect all this data into one complete flow and get it to SOA for their review. I assume as you have been talking to someone at SOA (1-800-subaru3), and that you have a case number. Get an email address or fax number, and send in your full description (situation, dates, places, names, etc.). Request a review and official response as to reason for denial.
Steve
-juice
As a matter of fact SOA was on the phone with the first dealer at least twice before the dealer decided that they didn't want to repair it.
Let them know you're part of the Edmunds.com Subaru Crew community, and that we are all tracking your case closely. Hopefully that'll motivate them.
-juice
So that I don't mislead anyone I DO have some faults. At least according to my wife.
1.I'm patient to a fault.
2.I trust people
3.I believe what people tell me even if there is evidence to suggest I shouldn't.
Just a thought.
Mike K
If I remember the sequence right:
1) Quick Change place reported that diffs should be serviced, but did not actually report them as low.
2) Customer drove home (how far?), did some research, found the front to be low, and filled it up (full amt, as though it was empty).
3) Possible damage from dry running very evident after long trip.
All this makes sense as to the initial cause. Fault probably lies with Quick Change shop. Certainly difficult to prove, unfortunately, but logical. How does it play into the response from selling dealer / district rep? As they probably do not knowing all of the above, what explains their actions?
Steve
I had my '07 at the local dealer for warranty work last week. They called late in the afternoon to "ask" if they could keep it overnight. I told them fine, as long as they provided me with alternate transportation. They did (free of charge), but it was an '05 Hyundai Accent with POS slicks on it. Real chore to drive that tin can around after coming out of that Outback. :P
I am unsure if I was "entitled" to a loaner, but I asked and they gave me something. It was sure a lot better than walking for a day.
-mike
I would be very suspicious of the oil change place if your stop there was very recent prior to your checking the differential oil. It would take next to no time for the differential to seize up without oil, so it could not have been that low for very long. I have to wonder why SOA came to the conclusion that "the wrong oil was in the differential" if you filled it with 80w-90. That seems absurd. I also wonder if the quicky change place actually drained the engine oil. Makes me wonder if perhaps they realized they messed up and drained the wrong unit, but did not want to eat the cost of the fluid change, so instead of refilling it they tried to up-sell you on the differential change. When you did not go for it, they just shrugged it off. Haha, I would not put it past one of those places. :sick:
If the damage was not caused by a drain situation, then it is definitely warranty work. I do not see how improper oil could even come into play unless it was changed out by the first dealership without your knowledge and they refilled it with the wrong lubricant.
SOA finally called to confirm what the selling dealer had reported.......no warranty. What is troubling and should raise a RED FLAG for all of us is that I attempted to leave the car at the first dealer and in very polite terms they said no, they didn't want to repair it. Even though I agreed to let them keep it for a couple of weeks if they needed additional time. Again the response was "we hate to turn away business but..... take Subaru up on their offer to transport it."
I can assure you all that I would never have spent $900. to transport the car if I had any inkling that Subaru would respond in the way that they have. Being disappointed in their service and response to my problem hardly describes my feelings at the moment.
The problem is what do we do as consumers, as Subaru owners if the nearest dealer that we are required, under the warranty to find and transport our car to, refuses to make the repair. What should our expectation be of Subaru to provide assistance under the warranty. I was told that once the dealer said they wouldn't repair it I was on my own and that the decision to tow was exclusively mine. So what do we do, look for the best two out of three answers?
They also said that they would not give me a written denial. That is the responsibility of the selling dealer according to them. That, even though the selling dealer had begun the repair process before the arrival of the factory rep.
To date I haven't received an estimate of the cost of the repair beyond the selling dealer looking at my snow covered car in his parking lot and saying it will be $1,500. I haven't received anything but two verbal denials without specifics. I have learned that the warranty may well be more of a selling tool than a promise of assistance on Subaru's part.
Finally, if in fact the oil change place "messed up" I wonder if the crank case is grossly overfilled with oil and if so can the dealer drain and measure to help me to approach the store with evidence to help me pursue it with them.
Once again, any thoughts?
Someone here had Jiffy Lube drain his trans oil and then proceed to overfill the engine oil, potentially damaging both systems. :mad:
-juice
I had transmission work done by AAMCO on an old Ford and they repaired it under warranty 4x, eventually the last place that had my car in Philly did some damage to it (burned cig hole in the seat, several scratches and dents, and a ticket in a place I had never been, and never finished fixing it properly) I contacted them and eventually after 2 or 3 months they wound up totallying my Ford Escort and their insurance company paid me out like $3k for the car. It wasn't easy but in some states if you take them to small claims court, a company is required to pony up a lawyer which will usually cost them more money than just paying out the claim.
-mike
On the topic of quick lube places, I hate it when they show you the mfg calls for service ever 15K miles...that is usually off the severe service schedule. I think it is deceptive that they use that as a selling point without being clear that the 'normal' schedule would call for 50K miles and the severe schedule would call for 15K miles. Seems the older I get the less tolerance I have for BS like this :-)
This is not to say that SOA and the two dealer's actions are beyond reproach. I assume that you told the whole sequence to the dealer you encountered on the road, and that may be why they didn't want to touch the car. Or, they simply figured it out for themselves, based on experience. They didn't want to be involved in something that was going to get ugly fast. But if they suspected it was due to neglegence, especially if they told SOA and knew that the expense of a tow plus the toasted diff might end up being your bill, they should have been honest with you. You might have been able to make choices that would have minimized the loss.
Steve
One of you I believe mentioned how both plugs are in close proximity. The tech obviously wasn't being attentive.
It would seem that the VOIC home office might send out a service bulletin to its stores advising them to be careful. Maybe they have.
Meeting with VOIC tomorrow morning to present copies of bills.
I will let you know how it goes. Thanks to all for your knowledge and advice. It seems that maybe we Pastors ought to be cross trained in automobile maintenance.
While he offered a couple of possible explanations including the front diff. dipstick worked loose and the gear oil was pumped out, it's apparent that he doesn't believe that himself. It would seem that VIOC would sent out a technical bulletin cautioning their techs that the two plugs are in close proximity and to be SURE of what they drain.
Thanks to all who offered insightful advice and counsel. I'm thinking maybe we Pastors don't need to be cross trained in auto mechanics after all. We just need to turn to you folks.
I hope it works out for you. It sounds like, at this point, there is some measure of hope for an appropriate resolution!
If the engine is overfilled by 3 quarts, it is quite likely that all the seals/gaskets are shot on it as well. You will likely see leaks in the camshaft seals and the valve cover gaskets, if not other locations, begin to noticeably develop within the next 3,000 miles (assuming the differential is replaced).
Diff is being replaced as we speak.
-mike
I'm thinking there should be a thread somewhere for people to share their misfortunes with unscrupulous or inept service companies, especially national companies. It might help to get satisfaction if they (VIOC)knew that there was a repository of horror stories that folks could point to for a pattern of behavior.
There are several places where I have found anecdotes about issues like mine but they require a lot of work and time to find. I even found a place where a Valvoline employee was on a site like this advising someone about how to make sure they were reimbursed by Valvoline after they blew out a transmission. He said that VIOC is scared to death of bad publicity. his line not mine.
I don't believe in taking advantage of people. But at the same time not everyone can afford the time that I've taken to come to the correct conclusion to this problem. I think perhaps most folks would give up, pay the bill and move on. I know quite often people in my flock are living right on the edge anyway, and this kind of thing can be devastating.
But would you really want THEM to touch your car again??? :P
Indeed. That is why it is so important to weigh the costs. Time is valuable, no doubt, but if the cost of a person's time is less than the personal financial impact the problem poses, it is worth every minute to root out the source and seek proper resolution. In this case, if VIOC was the source of the problem, it is certainly just that neither Subaru nor you foot the bill.
I wonder about the missing quart. Probably churned into foam by the crank (splash oiling, anyone?), and sucked thru the PCV into the intake. Your cat won't like that longterm either. Perhaps you should approach Subaru with the question about the status of your new car warranty. Prepare yourself for future problems. Wonder if VOIC wants to buy the car so that you can move on?
Well, at least it is all coming together for you. Hopefully you also feel better about Subaru as a company, although I think they could have been more helpful and more open with you about what the knew.
I'd say that you could probably spin all this into one heck of a sermon about men, machines, and community support!
Steve
-juice
Great point, Steve. I have a feeling this one is going to haunt the car for a long time to come. Bogey, if you do find yourself keeping the car, make sure that everything is documented.
I also feel like SOA, or at least representatives of it, do know much more than is being let on. They need to share that information with you so you know what to expect (and what to watch!) in the miles and years to come.
Visited with mgr. of VIOC this morning and informed him that I expected reimbursement by next Friday (that ought be interesting). Gave him a list of all the folks who would be receiving packages of information about the events of the past two weeks. Included the AG consumer protection unit, small claims court, DMV division that issues repair shop licenses, BBB, and if that wasn't enough the local news channel.
I am a man full of loving kindness.........but don't mess with my Outback!! Also informed him that I was holding VIOC responsible for engine work that SOA denies under warranty as the result of the overfill.
The car comes back home Monday. I'll keep you informed.
I would have your dealer give you something on how bad it is to run your engine when over filled . Then "TELL" the oil change place that they will pay for any damage.
Mike K
I have apologized to dealer for my frustration and a call to SOA is next. I'm still a bit disappointed in the $900. tow bill but perhaps SOA will look at it in their after action report under lesson's learned.
As for me if I ever have a circumstance like this again it's a rental car with a hitch and a U-Haul flat bed.
I believe that this conclusion in large measure was because of the help of all of you.
Thanks Steve, Mike, Mike K and Juice and anyone else who offered valued opinions.
Pastor Steve
Call your insurance and see if you can add tow coverage to your policy. It's a lot cheaper than AAA.
-juice
Uhaul truck + trailer has been more than one track-driver's way of getting his wrecked car home. Heck I know a few hondah guys who have put their civics in the back of a uhaul box-truck to bring it home after crashing it!
-mike
And it works all around. I posted a logic interlock problem I am having with my Honda Odyssey over on a dedicated Odyssey site, and got some suggestions. I relayed it to my dealer, who called me back an hour later after he had talked to the electrical tech to ask for more details. Said it made good sense, and they would check into it. So we keep the chain going!
Steve
When we stopped for burgers and gas, I could smell the car. When we went to back out of the burger joint, the car jerked violently. I knew the transmission was shot. It would go forward so we searched quickly for mechanic. We found one. He pulled the differential dipstick and said "It's burnt up". I asked "Does it need fluid?" He said "No, it's got plenty of fluid." He said I might be able to limp it sliowly further (bad idea).
It died a little later. We had it flatbed towed to the closest approximate dealer (it was a near threeway tie). We were still covered by the powertrain warranty.
SOA indicated they would help. The Subaru dealer (in Savannah, GA) took a look and said the front diff was burnt up. They rented us a car to continue our trip the next day. Eventually on Friday, we spoke with the dealer. The car repair wouldn't be covered by the warranty.
Why? Because, according to the mechanic when he drained the differential, only a cup or two of fluid came out. He also didn't see any apparent evidence of leaks.
Based on those observations, my warranty claim was denied *by SOA regional rep Ed Lucksic.
The mechanic didn't measure the volume that came out, nor did he retain it. Just eyeballed it in the 30 seconds it takes to drain it.
The mechanic makes that statement, and, sight-unseen, Subaru denies my claim stating "Given that you had the oil changed recently, we believe your mechanic drained the wrong fluid."
They *believe* that's what happened. Can they demonstrate that?
So I spoke with a couple of mechanics (mine in Cary, NC), including the Subaru one, and the Service manager, Mark Naman. I asked our mechanic if he may have pulled the diff plug accidentally. He said that may happen, but if someone did, there wouldn't be *any* oil left in there.
I posed the question to the Subaru mechanic in the precense of M. Naman - If you pulled the diff plug, how long would it take for it to drain? He said "less than a minute". I continued, "If you pulled the plug accidentally, could you quickly screw it back into prevent it from draining all the way?" He said "No way. By the time you realized it was the wrong drain, it would all be out." So I asked, "Then how can we assign the loss of fluid to my mechanic pulling the wrong plug?" That was met with silence. Mark Naman, the Savannah service manager tells me he relayed that to SOA (Ed Lucksic the regional rep, and Kevin Shumaker, a superviser in NJ). I spoke with Kevin a bunch, and he said "That makes sense, but still denied". We have requested everything in writing.
When speaking to Kevin and Ed, Ed accused me of "grasping at straws at what might have happened" and that I should "just pay to get the car fixed, or get it off the lot." I asked to speak with Kevin's supervisor, Renee Fricke. She wasn't overly available, but eventually called back stating "It is not possible the oil got out any other way than my mechanic draining it."
So when I left Savannah a week ago, I was given the estimate of $3022. Today, I received a call that it was now going to cost $4700, with the explanation that when the diff burned up, it caused the transmission to overheat and that now has to be replaced as well. Gears are torn up, etc.
Now, Naman keeps telling me my mechanic has insurance that will cover this (not unlike VOIC/bogey5's situ), but will it? Why wouldn't they deny his claim?
Does the warranty work like this: I have to prove it was a mfg failure? Does SOA have to show it was some other cause from neglect, or abuse,etc. The NC Lemon Laws clearly state that under express warranty, that the mfg has the affirmative defense (not sure what that means) if it is shown that the nonconformity is from neglect abuse etc.
Doesn't "shown" indicate some level of proof other than mere supposition?
My guess is that the mechanic doing the oil change pulled that plug instead of the oil plug, realized it and put it back in. Figured it was the Automatic trans fluid and the small amount that came out wouldn't be noticed since ATs have 7-10quarts in them.
I'd let the mechanic that did the oil change be responsible for it as that is the only logical reason for the failure.
-mike
Second question - why would the later mechanic have said the differential fluid was full if, indeed, it was not? The only basis that person had to judge was the dipstick, so if the dipstick was within the "safe" zone, how could it have ended up nearly empty in the interim without a significant leak having developed?
I think I would find out exactly what failed in the differential. It sounds to me like it was a bearing - hence the whining sound.
The diff only holds 5 cups. 20-40% is a lot to still be left behind after draining. And any diff oil coating the interior should still be coating the interior unless someone flushes the diff. - which hasn't happened. In addition, the mechanic didn't measure the amount that came out AT ALL> He guessed - I don't think that's enough to invalidate a warranty. If he measured the amount and said only a cup, I might be more sympathetic, but it flowed out. If it took 10 seconds, it's one cup, 30 seconds it is three cups. Should I be responsible for $5k worth of damage off a "guesstimate" by a guy who was barely paying attention?
I think the burden of proof for Subaru is a bit more than that.
I will remember this with my car, and if anything major turns up I will insist on being present for "inspections." Hopefully, though, this incompetence is not as widespread as it would seem from reading the entirely of the thread here! :P