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What Are Your Thoughts on the Return of the Taurus/Sable?



  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    How many of those 500s sales were retail instead of fleet?
  • Wayne
    We acquired a new Limited AWD about a month ago. My first impression based on a test drive was the same as your wife -where did all of the horse power go. Then we drove another with over 2000 miles on the car and it was a totally different experience. It isn't a hot rod - don't get me wrong. But there are horses alive under the hood.

    Our own Taurus started out the same way - sluggish. We made a round trip between Colorado Springs and Denver three weeks ago and the poor car struggled to keep up with traffic going up Monument Hill. The 6 speed was downshifting all the way to 3rd and maybe even 2nd. Last week end we did the same trip again. The car had another 300 miles on it and it easily kept up with traffic without having to resort to grabbing lots of gears in the hunt for torque.

    Taurus in my mind has always been an unpretentious honest car. It doesn't pretend to be something it isn't. It is a comfortable, roomie, four door transportation device. And because it offers AWD, it really satisfied our requirements.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "Want something nice for wife's 50th birthday and will keep hunting. It won't be a Taurus, but we may take a look at the new Malibu. "

    New Malibu looks great.

    If u want to stay in the Ford family, here's a thought - find an '06 Lincoln LS. They're maybe the best car Ford has ever made, or will ever make. Used one probably cheaper than a new 500/taurus whatever. Has a Jaguar V8 and rides and handles like a Bimmer. Also, 5 star crash rating all round.

    Just MHO.
  • A car that will give you great responsiveness with fast throttle tip-in as well as steering turn-in is the Infinity G35. We drove the G35X AWD and it was the most instantaneous vehicle I have ever driven - brakes, throttle, and steering. Even more so than our daughters Honda S2000.
  • jmn1jmn1 Posts: 26
    You're comparing a Taurus to a SPORT LUXURY sedan and to a ROADSTER. Of course it'll be slower. I sat in a Malibu at a press event and the door handle came out!
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I don't think that was the only disconnect...
  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    The manual for the new Taurus also states it has an adaptive transmission that takes a while to learn the habits of it's driver. That could easily explain poor early shifting and the feeling of low horsepower.

    It's not a Mustang, but it's got good snap.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    If u want to stay in the Ford family, here's a thought - find an '06 Lincoln LS. They're maybe the best car Ford has ever made, or will ever make.

    Yes, and isn't that a kick in the butt! That is the reason I am still driving an LS. I want to stay in the Ford family and they have had nothing that fit my needs like the LS. I have been waiting for 2 years for the introduction of the MKS and for what? I will be going from a sophisticated RWD chassis with one of the smoothest V8s on the planet to a Taurus based, V6, FWD or AWD semi-appliance.

    To be fair, however, the Taurus does blow away the LS in interior room and trunk space. The new Taurus is just as quiet and rides well, too. I would prefer a Taurus to Lincoln's own MKZ.

    Watch for GM's push on the Malibu. They will show Ford how the Taurus should have been promoted.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Of course the Malibu has another advantage beside the superior marketing program: it is a very attractive design.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Yes, the Malibu is a beautiful design and vastly superior to the last generation. I agree that the Taurus will not attract buyers with its looks. That is more reason why Ford needs to shake things up a bit by promoting it's virtues other than looks. A Blandmobile sure isn't going to sell itself.

    Someone on another site suggested Ford place a Taurus in every mall in America so people could see it. That would at least show that there is a new Taurus but I doubt if its looks would sell it. I would like to see every owner of a 2000 - 2005 Taurus or Sable offered dinner for two at their favorite restaurant just for taking a test drive in a new one.
  • jmn1jmn1 Posts: 26
    I think the new Taurus is an excellent design, but, it is not perfect. I like it more than the first impressions of the new Malibu. (I thought the Malibu was MID-sized).
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    The Malibu is mid-sized. The Taurus used to be mid-sized, and from some angles still looks mid-sized...even though it is full-sized. The Malibu has a sleeker, more expensive look than the Taurus. From some views, it is reminiscient of the VW Phaeton. Regardless, it is not fat-looking (with the plain-to ungainly proportions) of the 500/Taurus. But the Taurus does offer more room by being more bulbous. Had Ford used some of its design talent better, they could have produced a roomy shape without dialing in so much awkwardness of stance. Look at the prevous generation of the Toyota Avalon. Roomy as a Buick, but no one would call it a pretty car. The current iteration, while even more roomy, is less awkward looking.

    Designers can make cars both roomy and proportionally attractive. They just did not achieve that with the 500/Taurus. It will be interesting to see the interior volunes on the Lincoln MKS. It is completely based on the Taurus, but it doesn't look anywhere near as dumpy.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    I guess, in a Toyota Camry kind of way.



    My problem with the Malibu is that Chevy just seems to be trying to build a better Camary. But what they don't seem to address is why anyone who wants a Camary wouldn't just buy a Camary. Well I guess the Malibu is cheaper.

  • juxtojuxto Posts: 16
    I've been following this post and finally have to put in my two cents. I think GM copying the Camry may actually be an excellent idea. Ford should probably do something similar. Ford has lost BILLIONS over the past ten years. (GM has, too, but I‘ll limit this to Ford.) They spent the last 20 years moving factories out of the US, claiming they can’t make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last 20 years (or more) building more than a dozen plants in the US - paying American wages. Ford (and GM) has/have lost BILLIONS and Toyota has made BILLIONS (as has Honda in the USA). Perhaps it isn’t the labor costs, but leadership. While reducing labor costs I would bet few, if any, corporate execs lost their jobs. Typically, they get very large annual bonuses. Bonuses for LOSING money!! Hmmmm. One would think the executives making large salaries and bonuses would have had the sense to ask: What is Toyota (or Honda) doing that we are not? Why are the consumers buying their cars and not ours? and similar such questions. But instead, they kept producing crap and watching their market shares diminish. Finally, GM got the point. Copy Toyota! Congratulations GM. If we have no leadership at GM (or Ford) then perhaps we can copy someone who has leadership and is successful. I am in my 50s and wanted to buy an American car made in America. I test drove a Taurus, but shortened my test drive as I thought the car lacked power - if it has 260 hp and 240 lbs of torque some of that must be stored in the trunk. And for those wondering whatever became of the East German women’s Olympic weightlifting team - I would guess they now work for Ford in the design department and are responsible for the appearance of the Taurus. Wake up or lose it all Ford.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "And for those wondering whatever became of the East German women’s Olympic weightlifting team - I would guess they now work for Ford in the design department and are responsible for the appearance of the Taurus. Wake up or lose it all Ford."

    3.9, 4.1, 2.7, 4.0, 3.2 and the Russian judge says 6.0 !!

    Whoa, tough crowd.

    Personally, I dont see any relationship between the Camry and the Malibu. The view pictured here is only slightly simlar. The rear view and the interiors are dramatically different. The grilles part company too in a head on view. I'm hoping the Malibu is a good vehicle, just for domestic sake. GM needs all big hits.

    Oh! One more thing, Ford engines seem to be 'tight' when new. I know my LS seemed more sluggish when I test drove it than it became after several thousand miles.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    This post is very in accurate.

    First, Toyota, Honda, etc. are not paying American wages. In fact anyone familar with the Auto industry knows that Ford and GM pay over $20 more per hour for labor than Toyota and Honda do in their American factorys.

    2nd, Toyota and Honda do not have the legacy costs that GM and Ford have. Both companies have to pay millions per year in retire health benefits.

    3rd. The Japanese government artificially keeps the Yen trading low against the $. This makes it cheaper for Japanses companies to ship components here and for American to buy Japanese built cars. Given the Japan companies a $4,000 to $12,000 advantage per vehicle! y.aspx?guid=%7BEEF38E52-5095-4EF7-A534-A2B8907F7366%7D

    Ford is NOT moving production over seas. Ford has not opened a foreign factory in AGES. The only US sold FLMs not built here are Edge/MKX, and Panther Sedans (Crwn Vic, GMQ, TC) which are built in Canada and Fusion/Milan/MKZ which are built in Mexico.

    Ford is closing factories and this is a result of loss of Market Share AND being more effecient at the remaining factories.

  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Actually, according to Consumer Reports, Toyota should start copying Ford.

    The Ford Fusion is the MOST RELIABLE mid-size sedan in this country and the Toyota Camry V6 is one of the lease reliable.

    The Ford F-150 (V6) is the most reliable fullsize pick-up and the Tundra is one of the least.

    Don't give up on Ford or underestimate their ability to "out toyota" Toyota. They did it before with the original Taurus. The Fusion is a HUGE hit and so is the EDGE and NEW ESCAPE!

    I work at a large Ford Dealer in NJ we are not on a main highway but are part of a dealer group with a good reputation. (Try to find a Toyota dealer with a good rep)

    At my dealer, we are turning Edges in less than 20 days!!! and the same with the new Escape!!!

    That is so amazing that it is almost impossible to believe.

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    It is good that you are so enthusiastic about the products you sell. They are good products. However, "huge hit" could be perceived as an overstatement.

    The Fusion is far from the top mid-size seller. The F150 is losing market share. The "New Escape" is clearly the old Escape with running improvements, and some different lines in the sheetmetal. Unlike when Toyota for example updates the RAV4 (each generation starts with new architecture), the "new" Escape has all ther same underpinnings, mount points, much the same glass, etc. I commend Ford for actually doing more for a change than the usual new grill/new rear styling and interior modifications, but they still don't get what Honda and Toyota have known for a long time about how to sustain heavy sales of a product.

    Ford could use a huge hit like the original Taurus, the Mustang, or the original Explorer or like the F150. But somehow the Fusion had to really struggle to outsell the old Malibu, which was clearly an inferior car. Getting away from tons of fleet sales is a good thing, but then you begin to see where Ford really stands in the market.

    A lot of it is that the suits at Ford don't get why their market share keeps shrinking. If they did, they would not have pinned hopes for salvaging the 500 by putting in a better engine and different grill and changing the name. It's not a car that most people would ever walk across the street to give a second look. Ditto the 08 Focus. Yes, it looks better than whst came before, but it looks too much still like the design issued in 1999 with some lipstick and filigree. Plus, they eliminated the hatchback just as hatchbacks are beginning to catch on again.

    BTW, both Canada and Mexico are not the US, and the wage scales there are different. Ford and the UAW created this mess together, what with $78/hour packages and job banks.

    The Edge is a good start, but where are the new iterations and new models for other niches? Toyota may be stalling momentarily in its relentless march, but Hyundai has Ford adn Toyota's backs. VW and Audi both are reinventing themselves and have too many new models coming to even keep track of.

    Ford just has to get it together to be fast and first, or it will never be a major player again. What have they been doing? Well, trying to unload Jaguar and Land Rover for one thing. It remains to be seen whether that works out for them. It must be clear to some of the suits that they really don't know how to re-make a marque into a winner. After all, they invested untold billions in Jaguar, improved the quality, the products and their reliability. Sales as we all know have tanked. They can't sustain Jaguar with the XK8, and the Edge isn't going to save Ford's passenger car business.

    I don't know the answers, but it is clear that Ford does not either. What are they even DOING with old things like the Ranger, the Crown Victoria, the Explorer, the Sport Trac? Where's the innovation in the latest Expedition? Where is their city car? Yes, I know, all coming, all coming. It's very telling that the suits thought that the US needed its own dull designs and that the stellar European Fords would not work here. What's so damnable is that people got paid really big bucks to screw up so badly. Let's see, 2004, the Year of the Car...sheesh.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 258
    What is the Ford approach? My wife and I are retired teachers and I think they are copying the education model. We had a teacher in Orlando write an editorial a few years ago saying she couldn't teach the kids to read because she didn't have enough computers (never the fault of us teachers). When the kids can't read and right or find their own state or country on a map - u raise taxes and build new schools and tell people "it's for the kids". Unfortuntately for Ford, they are not a government entity and if they are inept or lose money for any reason they can't raise taxes to subsidize Ford "for the automotive buyers". It's a competetive world and building the same thing that failed year after year will not result in success this year.
  • If USA continues move toward socialism at the current rate I will not be surprised if Ford asks tax payers to foot its bills very soon. There are a lot of examples that it already happening, like recent “Dream Act” to colledge educate childrens of illegal immigrants at our expense, bail out failed home owner or socialized health care which pretty soon will become a reality because everybody (except of taxpayers) wants it.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 258
    Although we really wanted a taurus and the backup car was the fusion we opted to buy neither of these. I had never been in a hyundai, but drove a sonata over the weekend. I found it to be a better car than the taurus or fusion and on par with our accord. We would have bought an accord, but after having transmission problems and learning that this has been an issue for honda for years we opted not to do that. Really wanted to buy a car made by union workers, but will buy a sonata.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Good for you. There is a reason Hyundai is growing so fast. Supporting American manufacturers simply because they are American (or union) got us into this mess in the first place. I'd like to see American cars at the top of the heap, but they won't get there with slogans and false patriotism. Build the best and buyers will follow.
  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    You know somehow I don't think you'll find a similar thought process in Japan, Germany, or Korea.....

    I agree with some of your thoughts, but most recent quality rating have the American stuff on par with their competitors.

    And by the way I do own a Ford and a Honda, so I own both.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    With a few exceptions, like Americans, citizens of other countries are patriotic and root for the home team. Even the old East German Trabant had a certain following that was not simply a result of being coerced.

    There are American vehicles on a par with anything else in terms of quality, and that's good. But that quality came as a result of some people realizing that they could get a better product elsewhere, and so they did.

    Now, American manufacturers are fighting to get their reputations back. There is good quality out there...and there are still models with serious quality problems. It goes beyond quality of course. Features, engine choices, mileage, resale are a few of the other things people look at.

    The Taurus offers one engine. Competitors provide a choice of two or three. Why didn't they continue to offer the 3.0 liter and the gearing setup for those who want better mileage? Why doesn't the Fusion offer a sport suspension or a version with the 3.5 liter (which is becoming standard for the class anyway)?

    You can get a decent and reliable ride with the Fusion. However, some people won't buy the Fusion, because unlike its competition, it does not offer traction control. Ford also skimped on sound deadening for the Fusion. The prop rod issue has been beaten to death. The point is that you can have stellar quality, but if you don't offer the features of the competition, you lose sales anyway.

    I have owned more American iron than any other kind, but after 27 vehicles, I have also owned stuff from Honda, Subaru, Toyota, Mazda, Isuzu, VW, and Audi. Everything I have owned since the late 80's has been completely reliable, except for one really awful Oldsmobile, and minor irritations with a Mazda.

    I would love for example to buy a new Ranger. I owned three of them and every one gave me great service, one to 177,000 miles when I sold it to a neighbor who continued to use it for years. Unfortunately, Ford doesn't make a new Ranger. They are selling an old one for new offering the same stuff my 98 had.
  • jmn1jmn1 Posts: 26
    The Ranger, in my opinion, is good. I think Ford should make a crew cab, but don't try to tell me the stuff about the Explorer Sport Trac.

    Here is a link to what I am picturing:

    I also think that they should ditch the two-door Supercab, because, I don't see why anyone would want it. In my opinion, Ford should make a Crew Cab and a Crew Cab extended (like the Dodge Ram Mega Cab) for more cab room, but have the Super Cab for guys who don't want to spend so much on their truck.

    As for the Taurus, I think it looks cool as it is very comfortable and spacious. Comparing specs between the Five Hundred and Freestar minivan, the Five Hundred had 129 cubic feet of cargo space, and the Freestar, 130.5. But, for 08, the Taurus contends with four other new players: the NEW 08 Honda Accord, the NEW O8 Subuaru Outback/Legacy (Outback= off-road station wagon, Legacy= all-wheel drive sport sedan) , the Toyota Camry, and the new Chevy Malibu. I have yet to sit in a Malibu. I don't overly care for Subaru, I had a 92 Silverado that blew chunks, so I will never buy a Chevy (not necessarily a GM) again, the Camry was nice, but I have brand loyalty to Ford.

    And what about the Taurus X, people?
  • izaclown1izaclown1 Posts: 118
    "The Ranger, in my opinion, is good. I think Ford should make a crew cab, but don't try to tell me the stuff about the Explorer Sport Trac."

    I looked at the Expo vs. F150. No comparison! F150 lot less money bigger engine and bigger towing capability. But, I digress...
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Toyota does the min. necessary to produce a profitable vehicle.

    The 08 Corolla will be largely a reskin and the Civic will still have better powertrain and dynamics.

    The Rav4? You obviously haven't opened up the back of a Rav lately if you belive that this is a "best effort" The spare tire is STILL mounted to the hatch and the hatch still swings out to the passenger side. That might be great in right drive Japan but in the US it opens to the curb/sidewalk and creates a barrier. Plus the weight of the tire is annoying. That is so 1990.

    (imagine paralle parking and you can't open the back hatch cause it will swing into the car behind yours.)

  • jmn1jmn1 Posts: 26
    OK, if I HAD to have a swing-out, I would make it so it opened toward the street, making a barrier for kids and stuff to not go in the street. I would also have a release (similar to the 2000-2004 Isuzu Trooper to get it to shut, but for opening it 180 degrees.

    I still think that the Taurus is a good family sedan, but, I'm not seeing your point.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    It does open toward the street in Japan and other Right hand drive countries. Toyota apparently doesn't think enough of US consumers to put a minor change in for cars headed to the US.

    My point is that people seem to assume that Toyota is some kind of charity out to make the "best" cars in the world. In reality, Toyota does not make the "best" in class in any segment it compets in.

    Toyota makes the auto equivalent of Vanilla ice cream.

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Which is the most popular ice cream. Can't fault Toyota for having a formula that sells. It's not easy to come up with good vanilla. I think Ford tried that route with the 500/Taurua, but instead they totally missed the mark.
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