Jeep Liberty Diesel Oil Questions

imthomas

Hi to all,

I have a ’06 Jeep Diesel – 20,000 miles and for the most part like the vehicle. The ONE big issue is the engine oil:
• Currently change it every 6200 miles
• Use Mobil 1 (0-40W synthetic)
• Wix filter
• At best ½ quart of oil used between service

My question/concerns:
• As a long term diesel vehicle owner (30 + years) I’m amazed at how dirty (ink black with soot) the oil in the little Mercedes gets – within 5 minutes of running with fresh oil the oil is black. In comparison my Dodge Cummins with 200+K miles – or a John Deere Tractor with 8600 hours produces much cleaner oil – even after 2000 miles on the oil.

Nonetheless, is this:
• Dirty (looking) oil a concern
• What is the preferred oil choice – we live in eastern WA with some extreme temps. 0-100 degree range.
• 90% of the driving is my wife’s 100 mile interstate daily commute

I like & use Rotella (15-40W) in my other vehicles & would like to switch to something else in the Jeep.

Any input will be appreciated, Mike (imthomas@nwi.net)

siberia

Hi Mike,

I started out using Mobil 1 0w40 oil then switched to Mobil 1 5w40 until it was not readily available. I also use Wix oil and air filters. I developed a ticky lifter using Mobil 1 and switched to Rotella T 5w40 synthetic and the ticky lifter went away and has not returned - maybe nothing to do with the oil - just coincidence. Oil changes are at 6k miles and the level on the dipstick drops maybe 1/16 inch in 6k miles (35k miles on engine).

Black oil is normal on EGR valve engines and none of us worry about it. It's almost a shame to dump new high quality oil in one of these engines considering what it does to the oil. The issue is that the soot in the oil must be low enough concentration to remain in suspension in the oil. If you wanted to run your oil 12k miles or more you might want to have the oil tested to be safe. This is not an issue at 6k miles.

nescosmo

Siberia...Mike situation is like mine; I have a Dodge Sprinter with a 2.7 five cylinder engine and the oil stay clean for must of the time that stay there; I change my oil in the Sprinter at 10K and you see the dipstick clean but the engine have 9 1/2 gallons in it. The CRD have 6+ and is a 2.8. The Sprinter have an EGR valve. Are some of the engine combustion chamber use the oil different when cooling the cylinder than others?. please clear my dumfound.

Nescosmo....

siberia

Hi Nescosmo,

Are some of the engine combustion chamber use the oil different when cooling the cylinder than others?

There have been advancements through time to obtain more complete burning and higher efficiency in diesel engines. The EGR valve seems like a step backwards to me.

please clear my dumfound.

I cannot. The only thing I can offer is that Rotella T diesel reads on the container that it contains "Advanced Soot Control" meaning that the maker expects soot in the oil and soot leads to black oil. It would seem to me that in an engine where the rings are sealing very well there would not be much blow-by and not much soot in the oil. Does the CRD have excessive blow-by relative to the Sprinter? Once again, I cannot answer that question relative to the Sprinter.

You do make an interesting point.

siberia

Nescosmo, just an after thought:

I looked on the Sprinter forum and there is some talk about black oil - but not much. My recollection when reading about the Sprinter is that it has a smaller turbo that spins up faster to reduce turbo lag, so the Sprinter may not run as high a boost as the CRD producing less blow-by. The engine might be made a little better with better control on the systems. I work in a downtown area where I see Sprinters almost on a daily basis and I have never seen so much as a wisp of smoke exit the exhaust on one. Some of them are being run pretty hard, too.

caribou1

"Advanced Soot Control"
In the EU, this denomination relates to engines that use the particulate filter on the exhaust system. This is also a prolonged duty lubricant, usually good for 20,000 miles or more.
I checked the specs of the Sprinter (in Luxembourg), and it's supposed to run 30,000 miles between oil changes when used intensively in a fleet. In such a case the engine has very little time to cool down and humidity doesn't have a chance to get into the block.

nescosmo

Siberia....No blow-by hoses are clean as the first day i bought it. I use Rotella 15w-40 dino have 17k with no engine problem. tranny just developed an oil leak, -very small-, will take to dealer next week. I have a freighliner (check spelling)in town I think that they will be better than dodge dealers. What do you think.

siberia

What do you think.
Sorry, Nescosmo I have no opinion on which dealer.

No blow-by hoses are clean as the first day i bought it
Do you have a different crankcase ventilation system on you sprinter than the CRD? Those crankcase fumes have to be going somewhere.:confuse: Maybe there is something different with the CCV design?

I checked the CAC hoses on the CRD today and they are starting to dry up at 35k miles. At 6k miles the hoses were all snotted up. Now there is a very thin almost dry layer of oil and the oil seeping at the clamped connection on the input side is almost clear, not black.

The oil on the dipstick is better too. When I rub it between my fingers it feels slicker and wipes off my fingers with a rag. At 6k miles I had to uses a cleaner to get the oil off my fingers.

nescosmo

Siberia... If i run out of warranty on the CRD and have to replaced the CAC hoses, what type of hoses should i use.
Can i use those metal tubing that they use on the bathroom exhaust fans or just buy the hoses at the dealer.

siberia

Nescosmo, I have only ran full boost a couple of times and that was to obtain the measurement on a scan tool just to see what it was. I don't blow its nose by wide open throttle so I expect my hoses to last a very long time. The CAC hoses do not show any signs of deterioration at 35k miles. I will probably look around to see what is available when it happens. Some nice stainless steel or polished aluminum tubes with flex couplings would be nice but also very expensive.

imthomas

April 18th - As a follow up:

Based on what I read here as well as Shell/Rottella's suggestions I did switch to the Rottella 5w30 and the oil seems cleaner - but we only have 3000 miles on this service.

A new question: Are there any suggestions on miles between servicing with the new oil - given the same driving conditions?

Thanks Mike

synlubes

i run the amsoil series 3000 5-30 have twenty nine thousand miles love it ten thousand miles between changes

siberia

Don't you mean Rotella T 5W40? If your oil is cleaner, maybe your engine is putting less soot in the oil or maybe the oil is not doing as good a job holding the soot in suspension as what you replaced.

I use Rotella T 5W40 and I am happy with the price and availability. My oil gets black as coal after a few hundred miles from change.

Putting superior Amsoil in the CRD engine is like watching two beautiful women mud wrestle. When looking at the long list of non-oil problems with the CRD, I don't think it deserves oil that good.

caribou1

Siberia,
The 'long list' of symptoms points towards two causes:
- Synchronization of the Emission control system
- Higher torque for slower driving habits

Do you prefer to change your oil more often while others watch mud wrestling? Now I get a better understanding of where our reputation comes from

synlubes

just had my fuel filter changed fifty nine dollars still cant get the fuel filter anywhere else had thirty thousand miles on it i think i will go to forty like you

siberia

I prefer to do the wrestling.

craigs1969

$59 parts and labor or is that just the filter cost?

nescosmo

Siberia... Lubrication specialist is selling a kit with a filter (1R0750) at 3 micron but with no water separator, the filter should be cheaper that the one that we use and better. the kit with filter is $60.00 I think I going to buy one. What do you think.

Nescosmo.

siberia

When you say no water separator do you mean that there is no place for the electrical sensor? I am not familiar with the product you mention. Also, I have yet to find any water in my drained fuel. Is there a drain on the filter you mention?

nescosmo

Siberia... Yes there is no water drain so the electrical have to stay aside. the kit is cat #175-2949 it come with an adapter for the filter that you install (for a different thread) and then you install the filter. the filter is made by caterpillar. I was looking yesterday for a filter for our system and i found a filter cross reference made by Wix and the # is 33647 for about $26.00 but no mention of the micron rating. If i find that the micron is 10 or less i will buy it and forget about the conversion.

Nescosmo...

caribou1

Nescosmo,
You have to consider 2 microns for the fuel filter rating. The moving components of the injectors and pump are machined with a very tight tolerance. If larger solid particles reach the high pressure side of the pump, you may face expensive issues.

siberia

Can we assume then that the WIX 33647 that is specified for the CRD fits the requirement of 2 microns? I did not have any luck tracking down a WIX a year ago. It was a special order item that was not available. According to the WIX web site it should be available now.

link title

caribou1

I looked at WIX web site and found nothing concerning filtration size:

http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mfr,WIX,Fuel%252FAir,6200,Fuel+Filter

Then "Part Number Search" tab


Part Number: 33647
Principal Application: Jeep Liberty w/ 2.8L Common Rail Diesel (05-06) All Applications
Style: Spin-On Fuel/Water Separator Filter
Service: Fuel
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 7.322
Outer Diameter Top: 3.444
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 16X1.5 MM

Gasket Diameters:
O.D. 2.770
I.D. 2.440
Thk. 0.240


Personally speaking I would not use this cartridge because two main functions will be removed:
- The water in fuel sensing
- The pre-heating of the fuel for winter use.

Don't you have a Parker Racor equivalent? Mine is the R20S. It's the clone of the Mopar filter, and Parker once wrote they were doing good business with Chrysler Marine Diesel :shades:

synlubes

i think the 33647 wix filter is the right filter it hasn't ben released because it was sold to crysler under contract now available i think

caribou1

I found this code concerning the Grand Cherokee. It could be similar to the Liberty CRD.

P0178:
-Water in Fuel Light—Water In Fuel Sensor Voltage Too Low

Cause:
- Loss of water-in-fuel circuit or sensor.

nescosmo

Caribout1.... If you look at the filter the filter is a clone of the mopar filter. The one that don't have the water fuel sensing orifes is the cat175-2949 that lubrication specialist are selling as the replacement for the mopar filter. I am with you for the sensor, but the source said that you do not need that sensor because as soon as the water get in to the paper filter it will destroy it. Can we replaced the housing assembly with the racor 645 housing assembly and filter. I will look at the R20s on the web.

Nescosmo

nescosmo

Caribou1.... I look at the R20s and it does not look like the mopar at all also the racor645 that i mention i think is too big for the jeep; I was talking about the racor 445 housing assembly. I think it could work with the S filter.

Nescosmo...

nescosmo

Caribou1.... I just read in the KJ Service Manual on page 14-52 of the CD it said:- The fuel filter has a 3 micron element and tightens clock-wise to the housing.(fig.9)- so if the service manual is correct then we should not worry about it.

Nescosmo

siberia

Personally speaking I would not use this cartridge because two main functions will be removed:
- The water in fuel sensing
- The preheating of the fuel for winter use.

The water in fuel sensor came with the CRD originally and screws into the bottom of the replacement filter in lieu of the drain plug that comes with the replacement, so the sensor is not lost. The sensor is just 2 electrodes in the plastic that measure the conductivity of the water if high enough.

The preheating element is not in the filter itself. The original filter I disassembled was simply a canister with a filter element. The canister extends well below the filter to provide room for water. Is the heater in the housing that holds the filter?

I would prefer to use a Racor with a clear bowl. I contacted Racor about a year ago and they said that they thought the R20S(if memory serves) would work but could not say absolutely so I did not order one.

caribou1

-There are two connectors on the clear bowl.
-Both heater and water sensors are located inside the plastic bowl.
-The R20S filter cartridge has a 'chamber' for allowing a volume of fuel to remain around the heating element.

European 4x4 clubs promote Parker-Racor filters when preparing for African rallies. When you're not certain of what will be poured into your tank, you add another filtration element to the one I received with the truck. My fuel filter element has 20,000 miles and doesn't show any sign of fatigue.
The plastic bowl is really neat to detect the presence of water: I apply a flashlight underneath the bowl, next to the connectors. :shades:
When illuminated, the colour of the plastic bowl full of fuel is like tea (or american coffee )

siberia

Bou, I am having trouble making the connection between what you have and what we have. I have no heating element that extends into the filter. The top of the filter looks a lot like an oil filter with no chamber. Are you saying that one of the plugs from the filter housing can be moved to a connector on the Racor filter? I only have one electrical connection on the filter itself and that is the water sensor. Right now I am just looking for a quality inexpensive replacement for the factory fuel filter that is easy to find. The Jeep dealers around here are not real big on keeping the stock filters in stock so a WIX from a local parts jobber seems like the way to go. I am not closed minded to something better it's just that sometimes a complicated life takes the easy path.

caribou1

Siberia,
Some time ago I posted these pictures:
http://richard.fortin.free.fr/KJ_diesel/Corps_filtre.jpg
http://richard.fortin.free.fr/KJ_diesel/Purge.jpg
You will see the two connectors on the bowl.
The fuel heater is a 3/4 turn ring element that is fixed inside the bowl.
The filter cartridge has an empty volume (recess) built in just above the heater element.

siberia

Right! That's what I thought you meant. The US CRD has 3 plugs (1 on the filter, 2 on the housing) and the primer that I'm sure you have seen in pictures also. With the Racor pictured I end up with and extra plug (or am I missing one?), no primer and have to possibly modify the wiring. The thing that I like about the Racor is the clear bowl that allows contaminants other that water to be seen. Thanks for reposting the pictures, I have 12k miles to think about it.

caribou1

The dirty looking white knob located on top of the filter mount/housing is a priming pump. It works like a bicycle pump and has an o-ring under the knob to seal it off when screwed in. Then you have access to the check valve under the white plastic screw/cap located in front of the priming pump. You can replace or clean it if your fuel returns to the tank.
The Parker filter housing is accessible and repairable. Yours is quicker to prime, every 40,000 miles
When you buy the marine version, the mount/housing is painted beige. DC saved a penny by not painting it.

siberia

Thank you for going the extra kilometer on you explanation. The US CRD fuel filter heater is sandwiched between the filter and the filter head. This is the only image that I could find of it and the unit is fried. You can see where the other connector goes - fuel temperature sensor to operate heater relay?

http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000330cp2.jpg

Please take a look at the catalogue below specifically page 9.

http://www.usdieselparts.com/pdf/pdf/Section01.pdf

Is that your unit, model 230R, using R20S 2 micron cartridge and “Heater and See-thru Bowl”? Racor tells me that they think the R20S will fit on the US CRD filter head. If that is the case I can get by just buying the R20S cartridge and a non-heater see-thru bowl and install my existing water sensor. I am going to order the parts and find out.

caribou1

230R_P_12 is what I have. It's flawless.
If you retrofit this on your truck, spend the extra dollar on the purchase of two stainless steel elbow fittings ("Swagelock" or equivalent) for the fuel hoses.
You were lucky not to set fire with the fried connector :sick:

siberia

Well, someone was lucky. I borrowed the pic from another site. I hope that does not become a common failure.

nescosmo

Siberia.... Let me know how you comeback with this adaptation and if you do; what about the bleeding port, you know that air is a comun issue on the CRD.

gbostic

The oil appears to be coming from the oil seperator on the bottom end relief gadget on the top of the valve cover. The hoses from the oil seperator to the intake to turbo, the intake hose from the union where the hose from oil seperator t's in, the turbo and all hoses and the intercooler all the way to throttle body are oil soaked. For sure some of the oil if not all of it is coming from the valve cover relief unit. Is there any way to determine if any of this oil is coming from the turbo shaft seals? Should oil be bypassing the oil seperator on the valve cover? Any help appreciated.

George

nordicmatt

I believe it is becoming a common failure. My vehicle has been in the shop for the last two weeks. During a routine fuel/water separator filter change, the tech noted that a fuel leak through the sensor plug (into the housing). Currently there is a back order of 888 of these units with no firm release date. I for one cannot wait that long. I have been reading the forum with interest, particularly if there is an option available. I am not a mechanic, but I take care of my CRD and get the service done. Just don't know if it could be as simple as an O-ring. Any help would be appreciated, including what parts I would need to get. I would assume the pic of the fried connector occurred in a wet (fuel rich) environment. If air/oxygen was not available, the failure would have difficulty propagating into a fire. Thanks.

gbostic

We have been using biodiesel. The fuel temp sensor in the intake that controls the glow plug timing had failed. All four of the glow plugs also. The vehicle starts and runs instantly for about 15 sec. and then shuts down. Is there an override shutdown signal coming from the fuel/water seperator that might be shutting down the engine. Engine runs, sounds and feels good for the 15 sec.

Thanks,

George

jmorganflowers

I just bought a 2005 Liberty and plan on using B99 Biodiesel in South Florida.
I have had great success with my 2001 Freightliner FL70 3126 Cat.

The secret to success with Biodiesel is slow intergration and filter changing.
5%, 10%, 20%, 99%
This process took me 3 months to do.

Is there anything I should know with the Jeeps operation on B99?

jmorganflowers

George,

Can I get the name of the dealership and service manager you brought it to.
I want to know what went wrong and why.
I'm going to run B99 and want to know if I can override these problems.

Regards,
Joel

jmorganflowers

Dear Gang,

Let me tell you what happened with the BioDiesel in my 2005 Liberty.
I went to the store and out of the blue lost 90% of the engines power.
However, when I put it in neutral I got 3-4000 rpm.

This is a sign that the BioDiesel is cleaning out the system.
At this point my buddy who has been a diesel mechanic for 30 years said to shut it down before the glow plugs melt.

I changed the filter. It ran fine again.
Remember....carry an extra filter and one pint of BioDiesel (in a non-plastic container) in the Jeep.

If anyone has questions, please feel free to contact me.

After a Cat3126 in my FL70 and the Jeep CRD I think I get it by now.

slowzuki2003

Hi! I was wondering if you have figured out the problem? We have recently bought a 2005 Jeep CRD and are having this issue. Please let me know. Thanks!!!

caribou1

Hi slowzuki2003,
Some oil additives seem to migrate through the hose material. There is nothing to worry about besides getting your hands dirty.

tcluff

I have a 2005 Jeep liberty diesel and it is burning oil. At idle I get a large amount of smoke from the exhaust This is engine oil smoke and not diesel smoke. I have replaced the Pressure relief valve that is connected to the intake (preturbo) and that did not remedy the oil smoke from the exhaust. My concern is: could it be the turbo seals or is it more likely to be piston ring failure? I have no power loss and it seems to be running fine but the other cars at the stoplight get smoked out when I'm waiting for the light to change. It is really embarrassing to be driving such a nice vehicle and to have it smoke like the engine is going to blow up. Please help!!!!!!!

tcluff

I have this same problem and I replaced the pressure relief valve and clean all of my intake hoses. My problem is that my jeep smoke at idle at stoplights and stopsigns. I am wondering if anyone has had this problem as well and if I should be concerned about turbo shaft seals or if it's a more pronounced problem like piston ring failure.

winter2

My comments are directed at those who complain about the poor quality of the Jeep.

Let us face it, the issue is not so much the engine as in the care or lack there of, not following the reasonable guidelines set out by Chrysler, the use of inappropriate lubricants, and on some occasions poor dealer/service quality.

Let us face it, America is really not ready for good quality European diesels. Americans are not willing to invest the few extra minutes it takes to keep these engines running properly. Let us also consider that most American diesel fuel is swill and it is a wonder that these engines run as well as they do. I add goodly amounts of cetane improver and other additives to each tank of fuel resulting in less smoke, easier starting and better overall performance.

I have spoken to several MB diesel mechanics who have told me that when the MB diesels arrive from Europe they run beautifully but after a few tankfuls of American diesel, they do not run as well. Whatever component failure they do see, especially turbos is usually a result of poor care by the owner. That makes me wonder. At my dealer, the tech is really very good. They have several other customers with CRDs who do not care for them as they should be cared. I have, with the dealer having asked me to do so, spoken with at least one of these people in an effort to help them. I have pointed people to this and other forums and had them look especially at the advice given by Caribou1.

I know we are all busy, but investing a little time into caring for this very good engine has big dividends.