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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Me either and I own one. Gets me real nervous when people tailgate. Who am I kidding...that never happens in NJ...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Get a trailer hitch, then leave your receiver in place.

    Scares the tailgaters off some times. :-)

    -juice
  • ken_from_njken_from_nj Member Posts: 105
    my 93 mazda mx6 (fairly low nose) happened to introduce itself to the trailer hitch of an explorer or something like it suv. poked a nice clean square hole in the bumber. made for interesting conversation (and that WAS in NJ as well - i think the problem is just too many cars on the road here)
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    You can put an extension on as well, or a step, to make it useful.

    Does a nice job on radiators, too!

    I saw a posting with a guy who was going to make an attachment with 3 long points on it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good suggestions. I have a bike rack and use that occasionally.

    It sticks out pretty far back. If a Previa rear-ended me, I bet the rack would hit the windshield first!

    You're probably thinking of paisan. He put an extension on his Trooper. First a thin one, later a beefy one. It's sort of T-shaped and sticks out beyond the spare tire, to protect the entire rear end.

    -juice
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    I was thinking of someone on JeepsUnlimited. They were going to put 3 pointed prongs about a foot long each pointing straight back. The guy just got rear ended by some goofball gal.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I can just see the lawsuit filed by the guy walking around the Jeep to get to his car in a dim parking lot and tripping over those extensions.

    And you thought the 50's fins were bad....

    Steve, Host
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    a Tribute LX - no ABS. I think Tribute has 3 trim levels, right? ES is tops - mandatory leather, and probably ABS too. But the majority of Tributes are sold without it.

    Escape has only XLS and XLT? So I guess itis more common for Escapes in the real world to have ABS.

    Still no-one chiming in for the Santa Fe. I will bet dollars to donuts that ABS is not standard. That gives forester the edge on this one. (and all Subies for that matter)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    That applies only if you want ABS, right? If you DON'T want ABS, it is a minus, right?

    ??
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that was an "edgy" comment!! :-)

    Question: (THIS IS STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL) If you had 2 competing vehicles, and it was a toss-up between them, same price, you just couldn't decide, but one had ABS and one didn't, which would you pick?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    WITHOUT ABS (UNLESS there was an ABS defeat switch or fuse available)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    ABS all the way. I would not purchase a car without it.

    FWIW, Subies do have a fuse you can pull to disable ABS, anonymous02.

    -juice
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    In that case, I'd get the "Subie" (if all else, including price, is the same).
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Rumor has it that it's not a good idea to play with fuses on newer vehicles, especially while under warranty... ?
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    It's standard on the 2002+ LX and optional on the GLS and Base models. My 2001 LX has it as an option. One nice thing is that the ABS package includes traction control, even on AWD models. But I think you're right, Subaru has the edge here. Do they even sell a model without ABS?

    -Jason
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    rumors are rumors.

    maybe another good reason to buy used?
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    "I won't buy another new car without ABS" list. All it takes is locking up your brakes badly one time to really mess yourself up. I did it once, and fortunately all I messed was my pants ;-) Not really, but you get the point.

    -Jason
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    thanks for chiming in on the SF! We had not heard until you spoke up.

    And no, Subaru does not sell a model without standard ABS.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    I was reading a review, and I'm pretty sure it was at Car Place ( http://www.thecarplace.com ) where the reviewer, Bob Bowden, spoke of a fellow receiving serious back injury because of a trailer hitch.


    If I recall correctly, he was rear ended and the other vehicle slammed into his hitch, and not the bumpre. This caused the hitch and the frame to take the full brunt of the force, instead of the bumper. FWIW


    - Lou

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Here's the link to the back injury/hitch article.


    Btw, is the XC you coach on dirt or snow?


    Steve, Host

  • xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    Steve,

    Thanks, you're good!

    Here's the section applying to the hitch -

    "The man had been driving a Jeep Cherokee, towing a work trailer with his paints and ladders, when he stopped at a traffic light and was struck from behind by a car driven by an uninsured motorist. The trailer was hit and it transferred the impact forces through its frame, to the trailer hitch on the sport ute. That hitch was not attached to the rear body of the Cherokee, of course, but to the frame of the sport ute.

    The Cherokee -- like all vehicles today -- was designed to deform in an accident. But .. it was the body that would deform. And the body wasn't even damaged.

    Top experts in the nation testified about how that trailer hitch did its dirty work. It absorbed none of the blow, and transferred the force into and through the frame, which buckled upward directly under the front seat area. It was as if the driver had been hit in the back by the end of a 2X4. Even at low speed, at a fast jog rate, being struck this way could -- and in this case did -- shift spinal alignment.

    The man will never have a day without back pain again.

    Had the Cherokee not had a trailer hitch, our plaintiff likely would not have been injured, the experts said. The rear bumper would have absorbed the low-speed impact. A trailer hitch, a national safety expert testified, is an invitation to passenger injury in any rearend wreck. In his words, the trailer hitch "ruined all the computer work on crush zones." "

    It's a college team, NCAA D3, and I'm always lookin for good runners. If you've driven to some meets, you know they make you park out in the mud and dirt. I'm hoping to christen a new subie at Holmdel Park's Meet of Champions when I go recruiting there. No time for a test drive this weekend, though.

    - Lou
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just curious - I'm an ex-skate skier (recreational only!). Fresh snow tends to have much better traction in the parking lots than fresh mud. :-)

    (I'm good, but google.com is better).



    Steve, Host
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Interesting article. But I'll bet that since it was a "work" accident a good portion of those "back injuries" are trumped up to try to collect more from workman's compensation. Not to mention that the Cherokee is a Uni-body vehicle there is not frame on it! Was he wearing his seat belt? A lot of factors we don't see in a small snapshot about the case.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You can always put in a blown fuse for the ABS if you really dislike it. I for one used to hate it til it saved my butt. Now the only time I disable it is if I'm running on sand or dirt. For offroading at least on my Isuzus, anything under 10mph and the ABS will not engage, so I don't have to worry about disengaging it.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No - Subaru does not sell any cars without ABS. Haven't for a couple of years now.

    Don't forget, without ABS you'll flat spot your tires in no time. Noone can modulate their brakes perfectly, maybe we'd like to think so, but nope. Once you lock them even slightly, flat spots start developing, from that point on it'll lock up more easily, and it keeps getting worse.

    The Cherokee does have a frame, it just doesn't stretch the full length of the vehicle. My Forester has a frame, too, in fact my trailer hitch bolts to the frame rails. The "unibody" part just means that the body panels act as part of the structure.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    rather than a frame per-say. The frame rails are welded to the body. On a "frame" vehicle the entire weight and all components are attached to the frame itself.

    -mike
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "Had the Cherokee not had a trailer hitch, our plaintiff likely would not have been ..."

    Able to tow?
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "...those "back injuries" are trumped up to try to collect more from workman's compensation. Not to mention that the Cherokee is a Uni-body vehicle there is not frame on it! Was he wearing his seat belt? A lot of factors we don't see in a small snapshot about the case."

    All good and important points!

    "...Now the only time I disable it is if I'm running on sand or dirt...."

    That is what I was thinking...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Also when on sand or dirt it's only disabled if I'm gonna be "rallying" since when offroading generally you are going below 10mph and my vehicles turn off ABS below 10mph anyway.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LOL, anonymous02.

    Some Subie owners have pulled the fuse with no ill effects, except not having ABS, of course.

    -juice
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    In response to this guy's back injuries, are we going to see federally mandated crumple zones built into all trailer hitches? I can see it now... come to think of it, I'll bet that even without the reciever the hitch on my Santa Fe sticks out farther than the bumper.

    -Jason
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "... even without the reciever the hitch on my Santa Fe sticks out farther than the bumper."

    You mean "... even without the hitch the reciever on my Santa Fe sticks out farther than the bumper."?

    Yeah, that!

    ;-)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Jaserb, you did see in the story that the author suggested telescoping trailer hitches, a la steering columns?

    Shouldn't add more than, say, $400 to the cost of the rig.

    Steve, Host
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    A $40 hitch just turned into a $400 nightmare?

    !!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I thought someone would enjoy that, LOL.

    Steve, Host
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No way a telescopic one will be as strong at least not w/o significant R&D and materials.

    I'll keep my rear metal bumper thank you very much :)

    -mike
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    Hey, maybe they can use "bendy-straw" accordion-type technology for this! And when you need to make a tight turn backing up, just bend the little accordion part on your hitch into the correct shape and away you go! Yeah, that'd be a great idea!


    Oh, and who's buying $40 hitches? Are they made of tin foil? Even the cheap-o universal type I've seen at WalMart are around $100 or so. The custom Draw-Tite hitch I put on the Santa Fe was around $130 for a Class III, plus wiring harness / ball / ballmount / shipping / etc. It looks pretty slick - only the receiver shows. Here's a pic:

    http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=E&Product_Code=41543&Category_Code=H


    I'm still working on getting something to attach to it (SeaDoo jet boat), though...


    -Jason

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    $99 @ JC Whitney for a Class IV up to 7500lbs IIRC for my Trooper. Wiring harness was $25.

    -mike
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I pulled the $40 number out of the air; didn't intend to mislead anyone.

    Don't know about the class of SUVs here, but don't most of the "big" SUVs, (like the Trailblazer for example) come standard with receiver hitches now anyway?. So spend the $40 on the ball and clip pins and the little fake prop hitch cover.

    Steve, Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You sure that's a Class III?

    Looks like a 1 1/4" receiver, is it actually 2"?

    I got the OE Subaru hitch from Darlene, no charge because I had built her web site. So that was a pretty good price. :-)

    -juice
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    It's actually pretty beefy, it tucks right down inside the bumper so you see almost nothing. I've mostly used mine for renting yard equipment (trench diggers, post hole diggers, etc) and for extra cargo space - I have a hitch mounted cargo carrier.

    I don't think any of the cute-utes have a standard hitch, and I've heard some not so good things about the Hyundai accessory. Come to think of it, I think the Escape's optional hitch is a wimpy 1 1/4 Class 2. Probably adequate but it sure looks like it belongs on an Accord with a little U-haul trailer behind it.

    -Jason
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "Oh, and who's buying $40 hitches? Are they made of tin foil?"

    The universal ones which mount to the bumper run around there, I think.

    I picked up an entire bumper AND built in receiver for around $200, shipped, I think. Tomken, I believe. The only reason I did that instead of the other hitch was for off road clearance considerations.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    What's the towing capacity on the Hyundai? If it's not beyond a class 2 then that's probably why hyundai doesn't sell a hitch that is Class 3 or beyond.

    -mike
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Come to think of it, I think the Escape's optional hitch is a wimpy 1 1/4 Class 2. Probably adequate but it sure looks like it belongs on an Accord with a little U-haul trailer behind it."

    Yes it is. It too is an option, but I don't think I've ever seen an Escape, and I've seen a lot of them, without one. It's part of a package ($140 I believe) that includes the hitch, a wiring harness, and an oil cooler. I think I've read that the Class II hitch is what holds the Escape's towing capacity to 3500 lbs. A beefier hitch could up that number. Probably a good "avoid another law suit" move by Ford to limit it in that manner. I could be wrong though.

    jaserb,
    Any good web sites to check prices on SeaDoo's or other competing models?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Is rated by the manufacturer in the owners manual, it doesn't have to do with the class hitch. For example most mid-sized SUVs are rated at 5K towing, yet most of their hitches can hold 7500-10,000lbs.

    -mike
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I went back to the manual. 2000 lbs without the tow package, and 3500 lbs with it. I guess the oil cooler really does do something.
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    That's with trailer brakes, of course. The negative comments I heard about the Hyundai hitch were about poor quality, not capacity. Add that to the fact that I could get a quality aftermarket hitch that bolted right in for way less than the dealer was charging and it was a no-brainer.

    Re: Sea-Doo jet boats - there's a local dealer that puts their closeouts on eBay with no reserve. VERY tempting. I especially like the Challenger 1800 and Utopia. Plenty of space and nearly as agile as a PWC. And their quite a bit lighter than a conventional I/O of the same size, so a Santa Fe or Escape would have no problem towing even a 20 footer. Yamaha is supposed to build nice ones, too. Most likely I'll go with a 3-4 year old Sea Rayder with the 175 HP motor. I'd avoid the models with twin 2-stroke PWC motors.

    -Jason
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 2" receivers look small until I see a 1 1/4", which look tiny.

    Subaru has an oil cooler standard on automatics. The 5 speeds don't get them. What funny is that the auto maxes out at 2000 lbs, while the 5 speed goes up to 2400. The opposite of what you'd expect.

    Aftermarket shops sell the oil cooler separately, if you have a 5 speed and really want one.

    Boats, IMO, are like pools. It's best if a friend owns them.

    -juice
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Boats, IMO, are like pools. It's best if a friend owns them."

    That's why I want some form of personal water craft. They're easier to hide, and with three rivers, you can sneak in a ride any time, any where.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Most MT Trannies don't have em cause there is no pump in them to move the fluid through the cooler. Not sure how expensive a cooler with pump would be.

    -mike
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