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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    CR says you have to take your eyes off too long - you have to take your eyes off even for knobs, just not very long.

    Pretty sure CR understands MFT.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Sadly it's still terrible to drive compared to its competition, or even its regularly. I wish they had fixed that. I was listening to the Autoblog podcast yesterday on my way home (episode #340 for those who are interested) and one of the cars they had for testing this week was a 2013 Sonata Hybrid Limited. They noted the improved economy, and horrendous driving experience, stating that the standard Sonata "while not the best car in the world, is a nice, competent vehicle" but that the hybrid was still woefully unrefined compared to Camry and Fusion Hybrid models.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    One guy specifically mentioned that he couldn't remember much since it had been a year since he drove it and the 2013 came out way after that.
    And another reviewer admits he has a major bias towards this car.
    Must be something to do with the highly subjective "fun to drive" nonsense that car & Driver relies on. Its a hybrid not a sports car but compared to a Prius it is like one.

    But somebody did write this in an earlier review about the 2011 version:
    While we were less than impressed with the Sonata Hybrid's fuel thrift, we were pleased with its overall driving dynamics.
    At 3,578 pounds, the Sonata Hybrid is still light on its feet, with a structurally rigid chassis that doesn't flex at the slightest change of direction.
    Power delivery is smooth and predictable, with an estimated 0-60 mph time of about nine seconds.

    link title">link title

    And check out what Wayne Gerdes thinks about these second gen hybrids for the real scoop.
  • jplatt2jplatt2 Posts: 24
    This is from two of your earlier posts:

    "I haven't even sat in a Tesla(just seen pictures) so I can't comment on it too much"


    "There is nothing Tesla could have done with their touch screen to change that. Classic double standard."


    "Obviously, you never used it".


    "If you're going to bash something at least spend a little time understanding it first."

    So you can judge the Tesla but other's can't judge MFT. That's what the rest of us call a double standard.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    Your acting like an accident happens to every Accord ever made with kids in the back seat. That is an extremely rare event and to base ones decision solely on something that'll never likely happen is foolish in my opinion.

    Also, side impacts are rare compared to rear enders.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,906
    Camry 34,780
    Accord 31,507
    Altima 29,534
    Fusion 20,522
    Sonata 18,903
    Optima 13,752
    Malibu 12,473
    Passat 10,051
    200 8,122
    Avenger 6,131
    Mazda6 3,447
    Legacy 3,142
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,930
    Mazda better get that number by a factor of at least 10, or they are in trouble unless they re partner again.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,030
    I was only referring to it being a touch screen and having to look at it to use it just like MFT. It wasn't about the design or functionality.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,116
    Some touch screens are very easy to use and don't require you to take your eyes off the road, especially if they are angled towards the driver, like the Nissan Altima and Honda Accord. Also if they are large and intuitive to use. Not all touch screens are equal.

    But it isn't a reason to disregard a car entirely. CR hated the BMW nav and radio interface (as did many) but they still liked BMW. It's just one factor. Same with Fusion. Same with Tesla. If you like the Fusion MFT, great. Others have really disliked it. Neither opinion says anything about CR. I may disagree with some reviewers' comments about a particular vehicle, but that doesn't mean everything they say is meaningless.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • jplatt2jplatt2 Posts: 24
    Your acting like an accident happens to every Accord ever made with kids in the back seat. That is an extremely rare event and to base ones decision solely on something that'll never likely happen is foolish in my opinion.

    Also, side impacts are rare compared to rear enders.

    So re-use the formerly top ranked crib for your child that has the drop side that is now outlawed because, after all, deaths from drop-side cribs are rare. And when someone's child is injured or killed when a driver runs a red light, their parents can take some solace that their car still has a large trunk. Guess I have a higher regard for children.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,930
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,030
    I give up anyway. Everything I type gets twisted around.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    edited August 2013
    Why??? They made a really decent profit this last quarter as sales for the CX-5 and Mazda6 have doing very well. The new Mazda3 which is their bread and butter will hit dealaerships next month and that should be a huge success if all the reviews are correct and I have no reason to doubt them. Mazda is a much smaller company than the others so it doesn't take nearly as many sales to pay the overhead. Granted, they do need to sell more but saying they need to sell 10 times as many is #1 not going to happen even with a partner and #2 a little ridiculous. It's profits, not sales, that pays the light bills. GM had tons of sales and look where that got them.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    edited August 2013
    Thanks for that. From your writing I really got a sense of being in the Sonata Hybrid, looking over the displays and trying to get the best mpg possible.
    It sounds like the car would encourage making changes in my driving style.

    I am still trying to extract maximum performance from mine a lot of the time. It is a hard habit to break.

    I bought my car on 12/28/2011, and at that time the reviews of the Optima Hybrid and it's sister Sonata Hybrid were not as refined as other systems in operation, but that is the ONLY thing they found wrong. So, I passed on the Hybrid and went with the $5500 cheaper Optima EX.

    Here is the C/D June 2011 review of the Sonata Hybrid:

    "The integration of the hybrid system is far less impressive. Regardless of throttle input, the car rolls away from stops in EV mode. At about 10 or 15 mph, the gas engine starts with a jolt, and the rate of acceleration changes abruptly. Under full throttle, engine startup often causes a tire chirp. When cruising with the engine off at higher speeds, acceleration happens in four distinct steps: 1. Max out electric motor. 2. Start gas engine. 3. Strain gas engine in higher gear. 4. Downshift and get moving. If this is what happens when you make your electric motor work harder, we understand why everyone else on the market takes it easier on them". -C/D

    I hope that this has been worked out on subsequent 2012 - 2013 models. They are beautiful, mega hi-tech cars, for a quite reasonable price.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    edited August 2013
    Good post. It's just what people need to know when they are researching a new car and they come across information like this. Plus the fact that it is true. Even the 13 LX models look pretty nice. I am glad Honda finally got the picture and added things like alloys, rear view camera, and 160 watt Bluetooth / USB / AUX infotainment across all model lines.

    I personally feel that between the Accord, Mazda 6, and Fusion; few will get buyers remorse.

    Out of the rest, I would say *Passat, Optima/Sonata/Camry/Malibu are all equally good and will not let anyone down in operation, reliability, and value.

    There are a couple more mid sizer's out there, but I feel that the ones I named are the relevant competitors.

    *Passat having better handling and driving dynamics, as well as fit and finish than the last four. Again. It's IMO; and based on a composition of relevant articles, reviews, and owner statements.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Hyundai outsells Honda in Japan.

    The front end of a Sonata Hybrid actually looks more like a Mako shark.
    Several Mazda's also sport this look as do some Aston-Martins.
    So do several Audis.
    And the Nissan GT-R has a very similar grill.

    You want to see a really UG-Lee front end then check the first Subaru Tribeca.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Hyundais outsell Hondas in Japan.
    Probably due to the styling Honda designers currently seem to prefer.

    Japanese are some of the most style conscious consumers on the planet so its easy to see why they snatch up the snazzy Korean products.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    there may be some others out there but that Tribeca is the only car to have a signficant external redesign after only one year that I can recall
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    I was in Japan over 30 years ago and noted that the Japanese did not have a high regard for Koreans so I found it curious that they are now selling more Hyundais than Hondas in Japan.
    Just did a search and according to the Economic Times, Hyundai stopped selling passenger cars in Japan in 2009 and only sells commercial vehicles now.
    What is the source of your informatiion?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    edited August 2013
    "Despite having growing sales worldwide, Hyundai struggled in Japan, having sold only 15,000 passenger cars from 2001 to 2009.[64] Following an announcement on November 2009, Hyundai pulled their passenger car division out of the Japanese market and focused on their commercial vehicle division instead.[64] The company said that it is possible for them to come back to Japan fully if market conditions continue to improve."

    Above is from wikipedia.

    I think Honda sells more Fits in Japan in one month then Hyundai sold passenger cars in Japan in 8 years. I understand people being enamored with their car but, ridiculous.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,930
    The Japanese companies got a profit bump from the dollar/yen exchange rate.
    3500 Mazda 6's a month is not going to cut it.
    There is are reasons they took on a partner before and there are reasons many import brands build cars in North America.
    Madza needing to partner in order to survive is not an original thought by me.
    If the exchange rate goes the other way, they could be in trouble.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    You're right, 3,500 won't cut it long term.
    Mazda has decided to build their brand via start-of-the-art technology/design (skyactiv platform), and quality (plant in Japan). This takes lots of bucks, leaving little for marketing. After building this foundation, money allocated to marketing will increase with the expectations that market share will increase. I think they are taking the wisest approach but only time will tell.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    They are opening a plant in Mexico(or have, not sure) and will be pumping Mazda3s out of there soon mainly because of the exchange rate you mention. I've read some of the same things you probably have. The right partner would be good. They absolutely have to sell more cars but your saying they have to sell 10 times as many Mazda6 is a little far out. There are also reasons why they don't have that partner anymore and it wasn't all Ford's idea. We agree on the concept....sell more cars. Just disagree on the scope. The Mazda3 is really their top moneymaker and the 6 has never been a huge seller. Right now they are basically selling the new Mazda6 about as fast as they can ship them over. They are scarce on dealer lots.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,906
    I think Mazda is doing very well.

    All of their new products are getting rave reviews.

    The Mazda6 has even beaten the Honda Accord, the previous class-leader, in some comparison tests.

    Mazda doesn't need to sell a lot. They just need to sell a good number and make a decent profit.

    Mazda's engineering is on fire. Skyactiv is real.

    I think Mazda is on a trajectory to steadily grow in the US for the next 3 years, even if they don't find a parter.

    And I say all this as a Honda fan.
  • Does anyone know how remove the door sills on a 2013 Optima? Thanks. rr70
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The steering is still the same. That is to say, it's numb but pleasant enough. It's the powertrain that's herky-jerky.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The problem with the Optima and Sonata Hybrid models is that they use a conventional 6-speed automatic. While this transmission is fine in regular powertrains, it's not conducive for joining the electric and gasoline pieces together. CVTs marry the two together much more smoothly than a conventional torque-converter automatic.

    They aren't bad cars, but the inherent flaw remains in place in the 2013 refresh of the hybrids - transmission design.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    My brother-in-law has a 2009 4-cylinder Mazda 6, and based on that, I can tell you Mazda has a long way to go.

    They aren't in the same quality tier or level as Honda or Toyota.

    He's had dashbard/trim finish issues since early in the car's life.

    It came with wheel covers instead of alloys.

    It had no power going up hills in the hot desert this summer.

    It handled all right; I'll give it that, but the engine was gutless.

    Based on my observations (of his admittedly base level Mazda 6), I am not interested in what they are doing yet. It'll take time to earn that trust back. It seems they have improved without the weight of incompetent Ford on their shoulders. Using gas guzzling underpowered Ford motors was the worst thing Mazda ever did. Hated the old 3.0 V6 in a rental/loaner I had many years ago.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    When Hyundai's first Sonata Hybrid appeared in 2011 to boldly compete with the well-established Camry and Fusion hybrids it was roundly criticized for its lack of powertrain refinement, poor braking feel and mediocre fuel economy, much to Hyundai's dismay. But much to their credit, Hyundai focused on those problems for the 2013 Sonata Hybrid.
    The result is a top-notch, fully competitive hybrid sedan.

    The Sonata Hybrid has a conventional six-speed automatic in lieu of the CVT-type arrangement used by most other hybrids. It's been tweaked to make up- and down-shifts smooth and barely perceptible. Better yet, the Sonata Hybrid's six-speed eliminates the buzzy drone and disconnected feeling that's typical of CVTs, especially under hard acceleration. - i-hybrid-problem-article-1.1413841
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    The 2013 Sonata Hybrid features serious under-the-hood upgrades and modifications that make it more than just a rival to the Toyota hybrids, but a rival for the lead in its segment.

    Other hybrids use a quirky CVT to meld the electric and gas motors together, but Hyundai insists on using a more traditional six-speed automatic. In the past, the transmission seemed easily confused, resulting in harsh shifts at inopportune times.

    The new Sonata Hybrid has a sense of refinement which is on par with Toyota’s Camry Hybrid. The transition from electric-to-gas, then back to electric is smooth, and hardly noticeable on the road.
    There’s very little shift-shock as the clutch engages the gas motor
    while the car is moving.

    A key feature that the Sonata has over its Japanese rival comes with how it drives. The ride is communicative without being too stiff and uncomfortable. Additionally, there is far more steering feel here than what’s offered on the Camry, which is floaty and vague.

    By improving its powertrain, the Sonata Hybrid hits all its marks when it comes to a mid-sized, hybrid family sedan. It’s fuel friendly and affordable, while maintaining the standard Sonata’s solid driving dynamics and unique style.

    Picking the best mid-sized hybrid sedan is no longer a choice between the best fuel economy (Camry Hybrid) and good looks (Fusion Hybrid). Hyundai’s updated Sonata Hybrid blends it all together for a photo-finish. - - 2593.html
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