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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    The Chrysler I am referring to was not from the 1980s.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    I don't consider any current Dodge products as competitive mid-size sedans, and neither does the automotive community.

    What I was getting at is that Toyota now enjoys a loyal group of customers that feel Toyota's have a reliability edge over all other manufacturers, and that is simply not true.

    The current Camry holds no reliability advantage over the Accord and the rest of the serious contenders at this point. In the past, sure, I will concede that Honda's and Toyota's were far better cars. That is why they are still top contenders, but Toyota's recent resting on their laurels is showing.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    I don't buy that. As a matter of fact many car's come with K&N drop-ins as standard equipment, and not just expensive sports cars.

    My 94 SHO had one stock, for example.

    My roommate at the time was a Jiffy Lube store manager, and he went to clean my injectors and told me the intake looked like brand new after 44 k of my driving, plus the 50 k the previous owner had on it.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491 nce-fair-1C9977186

    That is a price cut of $71,000 off Google's system!

    I really do think self drive will be out by 2025, if only in certain areas with less risk and where tunnel vision can develop in human beings, like the arrow straight roads of the South West.

    For folks who think the technology will not trickle down enough so the average consumer can afford it in 12 years? Well, 12 years ago traction control, stability control, Bluetooth, rear view camera's, voice activation, throttle by wire, and GPS were all not available to the average consumer. Now every mid size sedan has all of those things.

    The self -drive technology is already legal in Nevada, and I don't think that legislation was passed so that we could wait another 50 years.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    We've been here before so no point in rehashing. Yours and my mileage varies. So does other people's..
    But in your own words, "Not very many people are as meticulous with their cars as I am."

    I wish I could find the pics I took of the 'clean' side of the air box on my vfr after checking it just a 1000 miles after installing a K&N after having drank the kool-aid.

    There was a surprising amount of dirt stuck to air box intake trac, that the OEM filter had not allowed to happen in 7000 miles. And no, it was not due to an install or filter lip flaw and seal.

    That was it for me, and I've never looked back. I think people become swayed by very influential advertising that became necessary due to slacking sales from poor feedback that has escalated since internet has been in more wide-spread use. But regardless, it really is not complicated...anything that lets more air in, lets more dirt in. I'm not sure why some find this so hard to grasp.

    Some system designs will work better than others. Maybe your SHO was one of those. And just because your mechanic said things looked clean, do we really know that they were? Does he 'sell' K&N's? Does he 'rebuild' engines that wear? Do these practices perhaps help support his business?

    I am curious which new cars "come" with a drop-in K&N? They wouldn't happen to be models that are reputed to be ones that have an extra intimate relationship with their dealer maintenance and service dept would they?
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    The TRD air filter was an option offered to me when I bought my venza. I've been told it is made by K&N.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Here is a quick link that came up when I checked what you said. I can only assume that had you gone with that filter and had you not adhered to proven service maintenance schedules, they would use that to not honor a potential wty claim. To be honest I am surprised any dealer would offer an air filter that filters fewer particles than the OEM mass produced filter. Of course there are a lot of differing dealer practices out there. Some are amazing and some are blatant crooks that shouldn't be in business and some are in between.

    YMMV - it is almost a certainty that if a piece of helpful info is shared on a car forum, there will be yeas and nays and each side of the fence will attempt to defend their position. Sometimes you get false info..sometimes you get correct info. It is up to the reader to take in all findings and judge for themselves who is correct. Sometimes the right answer sits atop that fence. And if all else fails, common sense should prevail. ad-idea.html

    "main thing, stay away from oiled filters.........they can kill the MAF sensor, properly oiled or not.

    back in the day I had them kill 2 celica MAFs and 2 maxima MAFs"

    and the next guy didn't agree

    and the next guy argued that..

    and so on and so on.. :sick:
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    I'm with you on it. I took my K&N out last evening. I guess the only reason TRD filters are available as an option from the manufacturer is to make that extra couple of bucks from the consumer who wants a TRD (most likely K&N manufactured) filter. I take good care of my stuff and if I'd have known about the problems caused by oiled filters I'd never have put one in and certainly wouldn't have been giving them away as presents for years.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I hear ya..

    I think what is built in to many us, especially us in being us here on a car forum, is that we are naturally enthusiasts to one degree or another. Otherwise we probably wouldn't be here..or certainly not the ones who return often, which again is most of us here.
    And as enthusiasts our basic character when it comes to vehicles, is our incessant desire to tinker, or make better...make it more ours if you will. And as men, we have all the goods to make us want to be better, faster, stronger than the next guy..and so it goes..

    No offense to any women here though, who may like to tune too :)
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    BTW- Thank you.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Hey, you're quite welcome :thumb up:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,320
    >I recently started researching just what makes the Toyota Camry (and Corolla) so reliable. I found Toyota mechanics that said it is mainly the owner, and his willingness to perform scheduled maintenance.

    That, indeed, has been what formed the reputation back two decades ago. Lots of folks bought and were scared to take their cars anywhere but the dealership for service. They followed every little suggestion and the good maintenance made the reliability reputation. And sometimes things were replaced under warranty or recall without the owners' realizing it. So the owners didn't realize there had been a problem item--helps the reputation.

    Folks buying US-based brands had less commitment to the dealer and less committment to the service schedule. That leaves things not replaced, not serviced, and not noticed at the mechanic (dealership) before they later became problems.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,023
    I don't think so. I pay the same amount of attention to any car I get. Fact is, I've had much better results buying Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda than GM or Chrysler. So those are the brands I buy. I'm sure that's the experience of most people in the US car market. They buy what has worked well for them and don't repeat what hasn't.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,320
    >I don't think so.

    I don't think you're right. I have a different opinion.

    >I'm sure that's the experience of most people in the US car market.

    That's also your opionion to which you are welcome just as I'm welcome to have my opinion based on things that I have observed through the decades.

    >They buy what has worked well for them and don't repeat what hasn't.

    There are different types of buyers. Some study what's there and decide what they choose to buy. Others buy based on historical and word-of-mouth reliability opinions as to what a current car purchase will do in the future.

    I've stood next to the service mnager (not writer, manager) as he told what was wrong with cars brought in far too late at the GM dealership, and then when something has deteriorated to a large repair folks are disappointed and blame the car rather than the lack of earlier, regular servicing which is their fault.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Sounds like a bunch of excuses from this service manager. I never bring any of my cars back to a dealership for anything not under warranty or a recall, whether it was a Chevy or a Honda. I do all the maintenance and repairs myself, and that's why I can say the Honda vehicles are just made better, with better materials, and more intelligence. Often, you will have to fix things on a Chevy multiple times, simply because it was designed poorly, or made of inferior materials. That's just the way it is.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    We must use different service managers. My service manager said the reasons the imports were popular included: American cars were poorly designed, poorly built, and it was the hope of the company to at least meet the "minimum standards" on some of the cars they were sending to the dealership; he said the UAW acted like an extortion ring by forcing the company to make decisions that no sensible management team would ever make and if they didn't comply the union would simply go on strike or damage factory equipment; he suggested that the heavy use of drugs and alcohol by the overpaid and incompetent union workers on the job often led to poor workmanship and that quite often the vehicles were deliberately sabotaged at the factory; he said the vehicles would often have poor fitting and poorly aligned / misfit parts and that quite often the vehicles would have rust on them while sitting on the showroom floors. He suggested that the Japanese did well because instead of hoping that "some" of their cars would meet minimum standards, they took the approach of asking if they could do anything better to improve their product. He thought the increased build quality, enhanced reliability and better fuel economy in the Japanese cars led the American public to be willing to pay more for the imports than they would pay for American cars. He, of course, has been in the business longer than I have been alive and is acknowledged as an expert in his field by those who know him.
  • gene84gene84 Posts: 9
    The fact is some years back I remember reading that Toyota spends more on R&D than GM & Ford combined. I think that Honda spends money on R&D also. Toyotas & Hondas are just made better because of the "up-front" work they do. Over the past 60 years, I've owned both Toyotas, Hondas, Chevys, Dodge/Chryslers & Fords and that has been my experience.
  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 4,708

    Fat, sloppy ,lazy Americans lol... But very true . the unions have a strong hold on how things are done in Detroit probably for the worst.

    The American car companies are building better cars today..... thank god... but there not there yet... until American cars can compete with the [non-permissible content removed] there not getting my hard earned money. We are the number 1 country in this world.. We invent and Create here . Other countries steal our good work. There is no reason why our American cars should not be world class leading.

    2016 BMW X-5 35i, 2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2012 MB ML350

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,320
    edited August 2013
    >But very true . the unions have a strong hold on how things are done in Detroit probably for the worst.

    Yup. And those unions are still in control after the silly reformat in bankruptcy the government gave GM. Shoulda put the unions in zero and let them try to renegotiate. The high cost of the unions helped slow the US-based companies down. Add to that GM's management's lack of effort and competency at times through the last 40 years, and you have someone who shot themselves in the foot. They did put out some cars that were not as good as they should have been.

    But as the original poster, CSKI, to whom I was replying had said, the foreign companies were much more successful at getting the owners and the car back into the dealership and keeping them up-to-date on recalls and fixes as well as regular maintenance. (>"I recently started researching just what makes the Toyota Camry (and Corolla) so reliable. I found Toyota mechanics that said it is mainly the owner, and his willingness to perform scheduled maintenance.")

    I recall listening to a radio talk host several years ago discussing the success of the foreign mass brands with 3 principles or general managers from dealerships in a major city near here. The dealership experience was a big factor in the success of the car sale and then a successive sale to that individual. The US brands in the Midwest here tended to be older because the stores had existed longer than from 1980s and the attitudes tended to be older. Now the GM stores are being refurbished or built new at almost every store around this area. And they are taking on a uniform appearance in terms of color and general style. I was recently inside a new Buick store in Fairfield that looked more like an upscale shopping mall. Even the car prep and service area was light colored floor with white walls. Don't know if the floor was tile or not like the sales area.

    >There is no reason why our American cars should not be world class leading.

    Exactly right.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    Although I totally disagree with your premise about care at the dealerships (I was alive, healthy and well-informed at that time and I had a brother who worked for Chevrolet for many years that would concur with my disagreeing with them... in fact, he'd say they were laughable statements), but I certainly agree that there is no reason why our American cars should not be world class leading. Our American cars, whether they are built in Mexico, Canada or Dearbornistan certainly have a significant advantage in that they (not ford) were saved from their utter failure by the US taxpayer. Over 40 percent of Chrysler is owned by the UAW (United Auto Workers) and GM will never repay the total amount of money they got from the government. (btw - GM's execs were no doubt accurate when they said "the future of GM is in China".) With that kind of advantage over the competition there really should be no reason we don't make the best of the best. Competition is tough and if you can't compete you're out of the game... unless the government bails you out.
  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 349
    I hope American car companies get the big picture one day. Had a GM tahoe 10 years ago, great engine otherwise poor quality. When Mercedes Benz and Chyrsler had joint venture about 5 years ago, Mercedes Benz quality was terrible. There is an old movie with MIchael Keaton and MImi Rogers about american auto workers out of work, with a Japanese auto company taking over the factory. A must see that explains everthing.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 257
    edited August 2013
    I am not anti-American car, but I would never again consider buying one built at a UAW plant. I may be a slow learner, but after 5 losers in a row I finally put my wallet before my patriotism. To put it another way - after Hell freezes over for the second time, I would consider "looking at" a UAW-built car.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    Not to be a PC nanny...but I believe the term [non-permissible content removed] is now considered an offensive/ethnic slur.

    But otherwise, I do agree with your statements...never having owned an American vehicle (American company vehicle that is...) I plan to put a few on my list next time I'm in the market.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,211
    I wasn't referring to a Chrysler/Dodge from the 80's either.

    Chrysler's and Dodge's are still a sea of black dots in the April 2013 issue of CR. Okay, so the sea of black is also a sea of asterisks because so many models are discontinued every few years.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,211
    When Mercedes Benz and Chrysler had joint venture about 5 years ago, Mercedes Benz quality was terrible. ______________________

    I remember the same exact thing. It was like Chrysler infected Benz with the poor quality bug. I predicted it too.

    It turns out some perceive that I can get greater and better retribution and revenge against Chrysler not by boycotting Mercedes for their former association, but by buying a new Mercedes now.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    I have read that too Wayne. The same thing happens on the repair end. I am very close friends with a life-long certified GM mechanic, and if you into a dealership for service and start a scene, the mechanics do things like add "bonus" weights to your wheels, screw with your fluids, and other such gratuitous sabotage.
    I am extra friendly to the service department guys, and I try to build relationships with them and keep my mouth shut when I want to be Mr-know-it-all, which as you all know is hard for me!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,334
    While I've read tons of press & have seen lots of ads on TV for the 2014 Mazda 6, I haven't seen too many around. This morning I moved over to let a 2014 Mazda 6 Grand Touring pass me. The Bi-Xenon Lights really give the car a finished, aggressive look. It was sharp looking for sure.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 4,708
    Sorry to say but Chrysler/Dodge will never see another penny from me in this life time. Along with alot of american brands.

    2016 BMW X-5 35i, 2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2012 MB ML350

  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 349
    I believe US car makers should follow the lead that foreign car makers do in their factories. There are a lot of american plants producing European cars. The examples include BMW SUV plant in South Carolina and MB SUV plant in Alabama. I believe it is non union, and the workers do well. Quality control is better.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    Perception often lags behind the truth. This is for 2010 model year vehicles. The difference between Lincoln in 2nd place and Chrysler in 27th place is 4 additional problems out of 1000 vehicles (11 problems versus 15 problems in those 10000 vehicles). Lots of Ford and GM models in the top 3 in each class as well. Like I said - it's not 1980 any more.
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