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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,006
    "More recalls than any other manufacturer" -- any evidence for that statement?
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    2010 - Toyota recalled 7.1M vehicles - almost twice GM who was in second place with 4M. -issued-the-most-recalls.html
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,187
    But those bad truck frames were made by a US supplier and shown to not meet Toyota specifications.

    True, Toyota has ultimate responsiblity, but this is why it's smart to buy the one's made in Japan, not the one's made in the USA. Another example is the US made gas pedal assemblies were the ones that may have caused some SUA incidents (but not accidents; that's driver error, put it in neutral or turn off the car!).

    Lexus is number one on JD Powers and is widely accepted as the most reliable car brand in all of history for decades now. Their IS 350 is 100% made in Japan with 100% Japanese parts and assembly; that's impressive. All Lexus' are apparently made in Japan except for a few RX's.

    Doesn't surprise me why they are always number 1 now. Makes sense. I've never seen 100% Japanese on a car until the 2014 IS 350.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,006
    You also have to look at what the recalls are for. One was for a power window switch. One recently was for an air bag design flaw that Toyota actually fixed vehicles going back over 10 years, long out of warranty. My Pontiac Vibe was involved in that one and its 9 years old. To me that's a company standing by their products and making things right. Neither of these recalls involved any actual injuries, just a potential identified problem.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    The 2013 Sonata hybrid’s acceleration and fuel-economy improvements are quantifiable and worth mentioning, but the car’s better-integrated drivability makes a significant difference.

    We already liked the smooth electric drive-off feel and the fact that the Sonata hybrid forgoes the usual wheezy CVT for a more-pleasing six-speed step-gear automatic, but Hyundai really hit the books to work out the kinks and smooth transitions between electric and gas-engine hybrid modes.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    edited August 2013
    As I said he bought it used, and was one of those people who ABSOLUTELY BELIEVES that 130,000 miles on a Camry is nothing, and the car will run 250-300,000 miles with no problem, with little maintenance. He can't understand why the belts are squealing and the front end is shaking and the rotors are warped, because it's a TOYOTA. Toyota has this reputation all over the world too. It sells a lot of cars with that blind belief.

    That is why I wrote about the Camry reliability in the first place. They have won the hearts and minds of many, even though their product needs just as many repairs as it's peers on average.

    Personally Kirby, I have never needed anything other than regular maintenance on every car I have ever owned while still making payments, except for my 1987 Chevy Z24. I have had cars break down less than 30 days from my final payment. Many times.

    Things that make you go Hmmmm. LOL.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    edited August 2013
    Damn, that bites! Why don't you swap cars every time you stop along the route? I have been really looking forward to my first long road trip with the Optima, especially to see how she does with MPG/FE, and I can't imagine having to let my wife drive it! If I needed to pick up furniture, I would have to drive our giant old 2003 Ford F-150 quad cab, with a 5.4 liter V8, and at best it gets 17 mpg. It usually just sits until someone in the family needs to move or or whatever. It's handy. My wife usually just drives my elderly mothers 2010 Kia Forte' EX.

    The Bosch Advantage beam-style wiper blades I installed are killer, especially in conjunction with the Rain-X. Today was the first morning that I got to use them, and I was blown away. I am buying them for my wife and my mother as soon as we get back from Myrtle Beach.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,308
    >But those bad truck frames were made by a US supplier...

    Of course they were. :grin

    >and shown to not meet Toyota specifications.

    Of course they didn't. :grin

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    Back in 2002 I was car shopping and had a chance to drive a 2003 Camry with leather. What I remember was an almost creamy smooth engine and transmission. Quiet and solid. It was a 4 cylinder and I was very impressed. I think MSRP was mid 20's. I needed a bigger car and ended up with a 2002 Chrysler Concorde Limited which had a huge trunk and nice interior. Trouble free for 80k miles. Back to the 03 Camry. I rented a new 2013 in February and it was totally different from the 03. VERY firm ride and very noticeable engine noise. Maybe my memory on the 03 is faulty -- anyone have a comment ?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    I don't think recalls are necessarily bad either - just pointing out that even mighty Toyota who some people think are perfect can have a bad year with recalls.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,006
    This just shows how subjective things like "ride" and "handling" are! We drove the '13 Camry Hybrid prior to buying an Accord. Our impressions were of an extremely soft and wallowy ride -- my general experience with the Camry prior to this too. To us the hybrid did not have noticeable engine noise. One thought though -- Maybe the tires had something to do with your rental experience?
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,721
    My MIL has an '05 Camry XLE V6 with 195k miles on it. The only non routine maintenance repair has been a front wheel bearing. She commutes into downtown Chicago every day so it's not like these are leisurely highway miles.

    The car is still incredibly smooth and quiet. Not my type of car and I don't particularly like how it drives. The steering is simply way to light and numb for my tastes, but it's her first non-domestic and the first car she's ever had go much past 100k miles w/o falling apart. Her previous '95 Saturn SL2 pretty much fell apart by 100k enduring the same commute.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Yesterday I dropped by a Shell card lock and retail stn cuz I heard they had no ethanol in their 87. The retail part was closed but got chatting with a guy fueling his Chev Isuzu V8 diesel. He has a trucking business. Fairly informed type guy, we were discussing dye in diesel fuel etc (cuz the taxation rate is so different) and the penalties etc. Got around to talking about his Isuzu engine. This was his 3rd Chev, after having too many electrical glitches with the Dodge. Said the Cummins was much thirstier too. When I mentioned that I had a neighbour who had a Chev dually with the Isuzu which started to have quite a number of expensive repairs on the engine at only a little over 110000 miles, he said.."I never take my truck back to the dealer for anything unless I absolutely have to, like a recall or some wty that is prohibitively expensive to cover myself."
    Then said..
    "Because...they can do things when they've got it".
    He said that ever since he quit taking his machinery back to the dealer, he has had much better luck with them no matter what the issue.

    As soon as I heard that, I thought well that's a coincidence cuz I had recently read your post a couple days ago, and another of imadazol's somewhere else talking about dealer sabotaging. I have a feeling this is MUCH more common than one would think.

    I'd say that if you find yourself at their mercy some day, bite your tongue until you muster your most diplomatic effort when you realize they are trying to screw you over.
    And if some time you just can't hold back..and you do really need to unload on them, make sure it is after you have your keys and the car is out of the shop. And never, ever, EVER under any circumstances, EVER go back..

    I wouldn't go back to the Fairfax dealer either...that will be asking for trouble....they're probably on their way out eventually.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I had an 88 Camry 4x4, 4 cyl stick. I couldn't believe how tight that car felt still at 175000 miles. Still had original struts even at that mileage. And that is significant because I live in an area where our roads get frost heave damage and broken pavement. Sort of the opposite of the flat and smooth FL roads.

    But FF a decade+ and with a quite a number of Toyotas both owned by myself and family/friends over numerous years, and I can safely say there is a noticeable degradation in the quality of the parts they use now. OTOH, prices have come down a lot even in the last decade. So the profit has to come from somewhere..and what better place than components that are out of sight, out of least for awhile...and things like struts are perfect item hits cuz they usually last the wty period, but not much longer in many cars out there..and not just Toyota..
    As consumers, we're not suppose to notice and as long as our Bluetooth stuff and iPods (I don't own either) pair up well and the Nav doesn't freeze up, we seem to forgive an awful lot. Everyone has different priorities and the masses are just superficial enough that companies like Kia and Hyundai have figured out that, hey..if we add a bunch of electronic goodies (that cost them very very little considering the wow-factor they deliver after the fact) we can make consumers sit up and take notice that we may be new to the country, but we're here to be competitive. But vehicle content quality varies among many brands, both NA and Asian, and among individual models/divisions within that brand. It seems to go in cycles as they try to determine the balance between maximizing profit, but meeting quality and consumer expectations. For a while they will have better than needed component quality, until they can massage that down a little, to prop the profit up, and then if that scale reveals they went a little to tight on their bids for quality parts, then they attempt to rebalance that scale.
    And I don't expect that strategy to go away anytime soon.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,006
    Paranoia runs deep
    Into your life it will creep . . .
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    So does burying one's head in the sand, taking shovel in hand.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 6,385
    The 100% Japanese thing assuring reliability is a myth IMO. Certainly my one-and-only Toyota, a MR2 purchased new, was 100% Japanese and anything but a paragon of quality. The list of issues with that car was endless, and quite shocking to someone who had heard the siren song of bulletproof Toyota quality. Now that was over 20 years ago, but I doubt things have changed for the better, nor do I believe that U.S. sourcing or assembly automatically makes things worse. It is the systems and controls that management installs in its design and manufacturing process that determines most of the quality in a vehicle.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,006
    And my neighbors MR2 lasted forever. Individual experiences are powerful but anecdotal. That's why surveys of reliability, like CR, are based upon millions of cars over time. Toyota and Honda reliability are real, both in Japan and the USA. And improving reliability of some traditionally American cars is real too.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    And improving reliability of some traditionally American cars is real too.

    Yes it is..but I wonder if it isn't due to greater and greater Asian content?

    I remember when John Deere changed their smaller hp farm tractors from Asian design to NA design. I stood in front of a row of new non current and brand new generation ones with a friend who knew a lot about tractors. He said look over these ones and compare after doing a walk around for awhile and tell what you think. So after about 20 minutes I told him that the most obvious difference was that the new generation NA ones had three leaking axles on two different tractors and that none of the Asian designed ones were seeping at all. And these were all brand new tractors!

    As has been said, there is no reason why we should not only be as good, but BETTER than other world-wide efforts when we design and build something. But for some rea$on? we don't. I hope I live long enough to finally see the NA build, be the turn-to 'whatever' but especially vehicles, no matter what a consumer is looking for.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    ---I had an 88 Camry 4x4, 4 cyl stick. I couldn't believe how tight that car felt still at 175000 miles.---

    A Camry 4x4? Sounds bada$$. ;)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    It was!...It even had a centre differential lock switch on the dash. Unfortunately though, Toyota did not idiot-proof the design and I'm sure people's ignorant use of such a choice, [leaving it in lock and turning tight into a Walmart parking spot on a hot pavement surface and wondering why they have to give it so much gas cuz it is a level parking spot...duh:( ] contributed to the demise of such a great car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    That is excellent. Reminds me of the Civic wagons that had "Real-Time 4WD".

    The crossovers of their time.
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    edited August 2013
    I see the build configurator is finally up on Honda's website for the 2014 Accord... and disappointed I am. I was really hoping that Honda would make the manual tranny EX available in something other than 2 shades of gray in 2014 - nope. And you can still forget about getting SiriusXM unless you're willing to surrender driver involvement (read: CVT) and plop down on cow hides. Seriously Honda? Your options packaging stinks. Are you taking pages out of Mazda's book?

    After all the torture I've went through with my current Ford product [with never-ending trips to the service dept.], I'm actually thinking of replacing it with a '14 Fusion...

    I guess we'll see what Mazda does with its diesel first - please, please Mazda: make the diesel available stateside with a stick shift, satellite radio and sunroof. My checkbook is ready.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The Fusion SE is by far a better car at this point. And they offer it with manual, though you'll have to search a long time or order it and wait.

    Honda and Toyota are unfortunately falling into Mercedes-Itis, where they are charging extra for their image alone. And in the $20K or so segment, that's a tough pill to swallow. Especially when their cars are such a giant piece of Tupperware. Great engines, but you might as well be inside a GM rental car.

    IMO, the extra few hundred dollars for a Fusion over a Camry or Accord is a no-brainer.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,316
    Consider yourself lucky that Honda even offers the Accord with a manual transmission at all. I understand it is frustrating that they only offer it in grey or black. What's the big deal? It's on the same assembly line for Pete's sake. If you have to have a stick shift Accord and you absolutely DESPISE the black or grey, then bring it to a body shop & have it painted any color you want. I'm not trying to be rude or sarcastic, but that's the way of the American Auto Industry. Build what you can sell. The take rate on stick shifts as a whole is what, between 5 - 7%?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 539
    I really dug the blue, was kinda bummed about the two colors. Mazda will put a stick up to Touring trim in any color. But I liked the Accord better in everything but exterior looks, so I got a grey one. I finally saw a blue Sport (CVT) on the lot when I went back to get my license plates, and I must say, it wasn't as good in person as I had expected. The sport wheels with their grey painted accents really work best with my grey exterior, IMO. I'm satisfied after all.
  • ral2167ral2167 ohioPosts: 723
    Not offering XM satellite was a deal breaker for me as far as considering an accord manual tranny in a 4 cylinder. Plus the goofy blind spot monitor system Honda uses.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    I've been running my Fusion on RUG, but I've been reading how much better DI Turbo cars run using premium gas.
    Really happy with my mileage, but always willing to look at a better alternative.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,875
    My brother-in-law runs his xm in his 2012 Civic through his smart phone.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,875
    edited August 2013
    But Honda's manuals are among the very best in the whole auto biz. Test drive one and see. Mazda's are probably equal.

    Imho you should not let color or lack of xm hold you back if you want one of the best manual trans in a midsize. It gets to 60 a full second faster than a manual Fusion. Clear choice in my book.

    The Mazda6 is also a great choice for a manual.
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