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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    This is a discussion about cars but ad348 seems to want to make it some sort of contest by offering unsubstantiated hyperbolic claims about Korean car makers and my presence here.
    f he wants to believe I’m anything other than a regular consumer, so be it.
    However, he has a demonstrated bias toward Hyundai-Kia as evidenced below

    ab posted:
    “Hyundai USA has co-opted much of the automotive media so reviews are rarely accurate.”
    Pure conspiracy theorist nonsense which was totally disproved by the aggregation of reviews found in US News & World Reports link I posted.

    Another one:
    “They are a company with poor corporate character and questionable ethics, at least as far as their US operation is concerned. They are a precursor to the Walmartization of automobiles and Chinese sourcing by offering products that *appear* to offer many desirable features for a low, low price. But there is no free lunch and you get what you pay for - a cheaply-built, under-engineered vehicle.”
    More conspiracy theorist fantasy. Hyundai-Kia is regularly cranking out well designed and executed vehicles and continues to sell a ton of them in the states, Australia, Europe, and Asia.

    Same old same old:
    “They seem to be a bit weak in the corporate character dept. Same with the persistent rumors that they pay people to post glowing comments in online message boards like this.”
    Redundant. Can’t you do better than reposting?

    “Reviews of the Sonata Hybrid consistently complain about the brakes, the handling, and delays in the power delivery. Not a situation I would want in a brand-new vehicle”
    Just not accurate as I have proven with several links to actual reviews, the ’used car verdict’ from Consumer Reports, and an Edmunds overview of the 2011 HSH.

    “Add to that the reputation of Hyundai USA making exaggerated claims as to economy and their consistent lack of customer & warranty support.”
    Hey, hold your breath until other companies start voluntarily sending out Visa cards to compensate for exaggerated MPG claims. The only truly exaggerated claims here are ab348’s.

    FYI, owners of Ford's 2013 Fusion Hybrid and C-Max Hybrid cars are suing the Detroit auto company because their vehicles are falling far below the advertised 47 mpg. In fact, they've fallen as short as 17 to 21 percent below that figure.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    Sarcastic? Hardly. I was replying to the post as it was written. How was I to know the OP didn't know anything about the cars he was complaining about?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,025
    It would be super-duper if we could stick to talking about cars and not what we think about other members and their preferences, biases, allegiances, and what have you.

    If this continues, I'm going to get quite irritable and start deleting posts with no notice, and members who can't comply will have their posting privileges in this discussion revoked.


    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    When the current version of the Hyundai Sonata was introduced it was a game changer.
    Very hyeoksinjjeok.
    Since its introduction, many automakers have taken design cues from it.
    Currently the Ford Fusion is in that class leading design position and as their non-hybrid powertrains evolve it'll do even more damage to the other mid-sized sedan sales.

    Mazda continues to rival Ford and Hyundai-Kia in styling and creature features.
    A few years back their new SUVs did not get very good mileage but that is totally fixed now. I really enjoyed my RX 7 and 626 coupe back in the 80s.
    Winding the RX up to its 7,000 redline was real fun!

    Someone asked what I would change about my car; about the only issues I have with my 2013 HSH Ltd is the lack of a power passenger seat, and no seat cooling or blind spot alert options currently available. The Ltd trim has most everything else one needs and Hyundai's Blue Link package is second to none in my opinion.

    BTW, totally agree on the Taurus v. Fusion but keep in mind that Ford’s 360 V6, AWD Taurus makes a nifty all-weather cop car and the trusty Crown Vic is-no-more.
    A local deputy I'm friends with loves his, and the crash bar gives it a real Mad Max look.
    Not quite as good of a pursuit vehicle as the V8 Dodge but close enough according to him.
    However, I don't expect the Fusion to get that powertrain but it would certainly make a nifty SHO.
    Sonatas are used as police vehicles in Korea.
    South Korea; I saw a bunch of them.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    They are keeping it over night. Got a Dodge Journey loaner.
    Talk about something that needs a back up camera.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • vservser Posts: 48
    My search is ongoing. Last night, I test drove the accord touring and fusion again. And after reading all of the comments regarding the sound in the accord, I totally see and hear it. There is no comparison to the fusions infotainment setup. And fwiw I'm in a camry SE car rental, an that setup is even much better. Also just not a fan of that three level screen in the accord. My sensible side says accord, but I think I really dislike the infotainment. Each car has some really good qualities. I'm wondering what the newAvalon feels like. Any try that yet?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    Have not tried the Avalon, but if you are interested in that (larger) class of car you should also look at its competitors such as the all-new Impala and Cadenza, and maybe the Azera, 300, and Taurus also.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    Along with the new Impala -- check out the Buick LaCrosse which has a similar platform, 4 year warranty and is heavily discounted. The Impala is the new boy on the block and dealers aren't dealing yet.
  • vservser Posts: 48
    The Avalon is only a little but bigger. If not for this trip that I'm on I wouldn't have considered Toyota. But this 4 cyl SE is super smooth. And the center system is pretty functional. The exterior of the Camry is blah though. I think the Avalon is only a few inches longer. Maybe I'll peek at the impala. I'm trying not to get into the $40s though.
  • An Impala 2LT (3.6L V6, not the 4-cylinder) starts around $31k. Pretty good value.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    From the pages of all the magazine's, I read from cover to cover, I have a mental picture of the finalists I would be test driving, if I was shopping for a new ride today. Since you are thinking of going up one class to large sedans I am including only top trim levels.

    They are:

    2014 Optima SX - great car. Turbo 2.0 274 HP and 270 lb ft. It has been freshened for 2014 and is a real looker, esp in red imo. Nice infotainment and it has an infinity audio system. $27500 warr 5-60 base 10/100 powertrain (avoid SX-L bells and whistles that will cost ya. Ever USE an electric parking brake?? I never use the manual one. red brake calipers? What am I 16? )

    Honda Accord EX-L V6. mid size sedan money, sports sedan performance, Honda resale value, and I think every bit a classy looker. Love the floating fog lights and the rims AND the classy double-wall dual exhausts. Nice car. Plus, real 6 speed and not a rubber band CVT, no matter how refined. I like to downshift when I come up to lights and to know what gear I am in. Old school.

    VW Passat 3.6 - Pass on 5 cyl and go for the Audi tuned 3.6. Classy, roomy, quiet and quick, German fit and finish and reliable up to 100k. It has a 3/36 warr but 5/60 powertrain.

    My last choice: Fusion Titanium 2.0 It's a gorgeous car. Love the faired-in exhaust and the infotainment is sweet. Powerful engine, German engineered. Only prob here is it is expensive with the 2.0 240 hp engine, and I like the Optima warranty better.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • vservser Posts: 48
    Great feedback. Thx. I liked the passant but it lacked a center arm rest an some tech. Kia is sweet looking but extremely conc about spending 30 grand on a Kia. The accord v6 drive nice but their center info system is ugly. I did like a lot about the fusion look wise but ppl said too many issues w it. Should I be concerned w a 4 cyl turbo?
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    edited September 2013
    Not with a 100k powertrain warranty.

    You can go with the 200 horse 2.4 that I have, and still know you have 15-30 more horsepower than any other base engine in it's class, and it is INCREDIBLY smooth and smooth shifting. I think of it this way - pretend there were two of my engines attached at the crank. It would put out 400 hp and displace only 4.8 liters. That is a high performing engine. My Jeep had a 4.7 V8, and only had 235. The cars we drive today are truly masters of engineering.

    I have three young kids and there isn't anywhere around here (no back roads at all) so there is nowhere to go turbo-ing off to....but I really love the SX looks, especially with the new front and rear fascia and wheels, and not a week will go by when someone doesn't ask about it at the gas station.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    Very hyeoksinjjeok. Is that Icelandic?

    Honestly Ford owned Aston Martin as part of it's PAG (Premier Auto Group) and lost a bundle of dough and sold it at a 3 million dollar loss, so they stole the grill our of the deal ...but did a good job of incorporating it into a sedan. The Avalon not so much. Looks like a salmon.

    BTW: Now your writing about cars! Welcome. Really. You talked about cars...not just a car, or your car. :)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 6,387
    MyFordTouch would dismiss the Fusion for me. It is just too problematic. Ford is notorious for being tight-fisted with warranty claims, and between MFT and the Turbo engine that would worry me.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    edited September 2013
    I agree that reviews of MFT have not been favorable in the car mags. I like the more traditional layout of my infotainment head unit and separate A/C controls, both with real knobs and such.

    I think the systems that are used in Audi's and BMW's are better. They have a master knob and buttons around it....mouse controller in other words instead of pushing wrong buttons on the touch screen and spending more time and attention on the screens than on the road.

    Also, I frequently have my kids in the car, and have their own A/C (dual zone) and tuning knob so they can select songs from my USB thumb drive or other source like Pandora without me having to do anything.

    I understand Ford is having teething problems with the Fusion, and I am convinced they are mostly minor, but I have to say that there have been no TSB's on my car...or any problems at all. It drives just as nice as the day I bought it. Who wants to spend ANY time running back and forth to the dealer on a new car? Isn't the whole point of buying new so you will have many years of trouble free service?

    It was on my list because the car is actually mostly German engineered and tuned. A small, reasonably priced and mfr backed service contract to extend the warranty to 100k bumper to bumper would quell any other reliability fears. If you love the Fusion and don't want a bland "Alticamry" the Ford is a good choice.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • vservser Posts: 48
    Tell you what, the accords system seems to be no better. The stereo sounds like a one speaker system. And why all of those screens and levels. Seems like three different ideas. Both systems have issues.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    edited September 2013
    I just looked over the audio specs on the Honda site on all the different models.

    LX and Sport audio - 160 watt and 4 speakers

    EX audio - 160 watts and 6 speakers (you get tweeters in the A-pillars).

    EX-L and up - 360 watt system w/ sub-woofer.

    On paper it looks good, even on the LX.

    Which one have you driven , and was it only bad on the FM radio or did you pop in a cleaner source like a thumb drive?

    I am gonna have to go over to Honda and check it out for myself....thumb drive in hand so I can use my own tunes to judge.

    ***On a side note I still don't understand why you don't get the 18' rims on the upper Accord's all backwards on the Accord from all the other mfrs. Higher trim = snazzy wheels. I shouldn't complain though. $23500 is $700 less than the sticker on my Optima, but I have push button start, dual zone A/C, smart entry, leather, wood trim and 6 speakers + Satellite radio so I am happy with what I have if I really think about it. Plus 11 more horsepower.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • suydamsuydam Posts: 3,006
    I have the 2013 EX-L Accord with the upgraded stereo. You do have to turn the bass up but it sounds fine. The problem is the presets are not right. Once you fiddle with them you will have a good sound. Is it as good as say, the Bose on the Altima? No. But it is certainly not a cheap system. I don't listen to regular FM but Sirius XM and music from my ipod sound great. It also depends on what music you listen to. If you only listen to heavy metal you may not like it. Springsteen sounds fine.

    As to the screen and interface I really like it. It is extremely easy to use. There are 2 screens, not 3. The top screen can be scrolled from the steering wheel to show the music you are listening to or the fuel economy on your trip. It's essentially a display screen. If you have nav it is displayed there (I don't). It is put up high so the driver can see it.

    The middle screen is a touch screen that also has knobs for the touch-screen averse. That's where the controls are. It's put in the middle so it's easy to reach from the driver's side to change source, from ipod to XM, for example.

    I know a lot of people complain about the display but for me it is one of the features I like best in the car. I loved the Bose in the Altima but in order to get a touch screen you have to get nav, which I didn't want and is another $1000. The Honda gives you the choice. I also liked the way the Honda drove much better. But each person has different likes, so really the best is to try the different vehicles for yourself. There are a lot of complaints about the Ford Mytouch but some people on these boards really like it.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    I haven't seen Ford's warranty response to be any worse than other makes. They're pretty tight with the dealers/mechanics on labor times but not on denying warranty claims. There are some dealers who make it harder to submit a warranty claim but that's not something Ford can do anything about - just take it to another more reasonable dealer.

    I have 2 Fords with MFT - my daughter's 2012 Focus and my 2013 Fusion. Outside of the initial problems with bugs and slow response which seem to now be fixed there is nothing wrong with MFT if you take just a few minutes to figure out the options and screens.

    I have the right hand small display setup with climate control temp so I can adjust that from the steering wheel button. I can use the same display to switch to Navigation to get next turn and speed limit info. That same display also gives you phone and radio control but I don't use those.

    Left hand display is for tach, fuel gauge and fuel economy.

    On the main MFT screen is phone status (upper left), current entertainment selection (Sirius or radio presets or USB/bluetooth info including song and artist) (lower left), climate control settings (temp and seat heaters) (lower right) and Navigation (current street or next turn)(upper right).

    If you want to change phone settings you touch the upper left quadrant. If you want the nav map or to change settings you touch the upper right. Climate control - lower right. Entertainment - lower left.

    From there the interfaces for each section are pretty much just like any other vehicle and they're always just one touch away.

    If I want to make a phone call I use a voice command (call home).

    To receive a phone call or have a text read I use the steering wheel button (one press).

    To change radio volume, station or current song I use the steering wheel buttons. To change source, I either use voice command (USB) or go to the Entertainment screen and select the source I want. There is also a hard button below MFT to cycle through the sources.

    To set a destination I go to Navigation, Menu, Destination or use voice commands.

    To change climate control temp I use the steering wheel button.

    Why is that so difficult? It's certainly no harder than learning a new phone interface for the first time.
  • vservser Posts: 48
    I drove the touring. There was a tsb on the electronics but you really have to hear the stereo to understand that it's far from a premium system. I heard its an alpine too.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    edited September 2013
    Honestly for me being an IT guy I embrace computers and screens. I am sure the system makes perfect sense and is easy to get used to. The car mags reported some negative things with terms like "infuriating".

    In the small sedan review on the Focus with MFT; C&D said it was the car's Achilles heel. In their summary they suggested that potential buyers delete it on the option sheet. They didn't just suggest either. They said it outright.

    So after seeing Motor Trend also complain about it I have to give their claims some validity. I am trying to be fair to Ford, and I absolutely would buy it over Camry, Altima, Malibu hands down. Even the Passat would be a close call to choose one over the other.

    In all fairness I have only sat in the drivers seat once, and I am absolutely sure the system becomes familiar and intuitive to use. I like the clean center console design and the quality materials...also the airiness of the cabin.

    I am saying though that on my car at least, a radio is a radio and the A/C controls are A/C controls. It is easy to use.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • vservser Posts: 48
    I'm in tech too and very aware that sw is buggy. Hopefully bug fixes will address them so we don't have to use infotainment systems as differentiators.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Should one really have to be an IT person or spend "time" learning a system to do things that in the past was a straightforward quick turn of a knob or a one button push? I used to travel and rent cars a lot and I didn't have time to learn how to use the system and didn't have to in in 99% of rental cars. It would have actually been dangerous for me to be driving in a strange city trying to figure out how to use the controls. Consumer Reports also slammed the system and they buy their cars and keep them for a good long time. They test them and their employees drive them. Shouldn't that be enough time to learn a system and start liking it if it was anywhere as user friendly as you make it out to be?

    I understand they have worked some of the malfunction bugs out(how long did that take?) but the fact remains that the system is overly redundant, has very small icons to "fatfinger" and, from what I read, still has lockup issues at times which require a reboot. I just don't need that while I'm trying to drive in congested traffic. I see where Ford is going to reverse course a little and offer the knobs/buttons instead of the MFT in uplevel F150s in the near future. That would be great to see in their other offerings IMO. I might be driving an Edge today if it had not been for the godawful MFT interface.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    I think the *theory* is sound just the implementation in this case, MFT, may have been flawed.

    My exposure to MFT only encompasses a test drive and I found it interesting/helpful (neat)...

    Consumer Reports has a glowing review of the Tesla and the interface so they're not opposed to it.

    I don't see many berating Microsoft for their hand in it. I use a number of MS products...but when this was initially announced I cringed a bit thinking of a BSOD while driving down the road.

    Maybe the interface for the common folks (i.e. non Tesla owners) will improve when Apple or Google expands to this market :)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    MFT could use some ergonomic improvements but it's not nearly as bad as most people say it is. My daughter figured it out in 5 minutes. Mine is very stable with no freezes or reboots ever in 8 months.

    I suspect that some folks think its a capacitive touch screen like a smartphone but its resistive requiring an actual press to register it. It's cheaper more durable and can be used with gloves.

    Early bugs and lags gave it a bad rep (deserved at the time but since corrected).

    It does offer too many ways to do some things but you don't have to use them.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    Got my Fusion back today. They ended up replacing the fuel tank(TSB).
    I dropped the car off, got shuttled to work, then shuttled to the car rental since they had to keep it for a couple of days. When the car was done, I dropped off the rental and got shuttled to the dealer to pick it up.
    I brought the car in empty and it had a quarter tank in it when I picked it up.
    It had been driven less than a mile.
    We are on our 3rd vehicle with MFT(11 Explorer, 13 Escape, 13 Fusion) and really have had no problems.
    One of the upgrades changed all the screens, so that was actually kind of cool.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    edited September 2013
    I have the same sentiment in regard to stereo and climate system controls. At this point, I think MFT is a "workable" system (not crashing and freezing on a daily or weekly basis), but why I don't want it is b/c I prefer to go by feel when adjusting basic settings.

    I think most of the "benefit" of these flat screen systems is one of aesthetics. And, yes, I agree that flat screens appear more futuristic than knobs. But even at a relatively young 38 years old, this isn't a huge selling point for me. And, lest anyone draw any quick conclusions, I'm hardly a Luddite (I work in the financial sector and have market info streaming in front of me on multiple monitors at my desk all day long).

    When I drive, it's often in traffic and having to look away from the freeway for more than a second could be the difference between a close call and actual metal on metal contact.

    To MFT or not to MFT comes down to the way YOU drive. I have friends that hook up their iPhones and never adjust the stereo again during an entire trip; I, on the other hand, often flip from political talk radio (AM) to traffic, talk radio/sports (SiriusXM) to music (SiriusXM/Line-In/CD) several times on even relatively short trips. Not to mention, living in Minnesota, it seems like I'm always fiddling with the fan speed and temp settings. As such, visually navigating even a single screen menu for the basics (volume, presets, fan speed, etc.) is not cool.

    If you primarily adjust your controls in your garage or office parking lot (or if you drive in relatively open areas), MFT could be desirable - it packs a lot of features in a visually stimulating format. If you're a chronic adjuster, however, skipping the touch screen may be a wise choice.

    At least Ford gives you both alternatives.
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 539
    The consensus in the Accord forum seems to be that FM radio in the base system sounds pretty lame, but Bluetooth, USB, CD sound pretty good. I rarely listen to FM now - mostly podcasts, some AM radio (sports, not political theater), and the Pandora interface is really well done (no ads even as a non-paying-subscriber, how do they do that?).
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,491
    Did you say they changed all the screens? Does that mean that you and kirby get to sit down and spend some more romantic one-on-one time learning to use it all over again? :)

    Sorry, I couldn't help myself, and I am sure it was just the main screen view. The new versions of my infotainment system have a revamped main screen as well.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

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