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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    Camry 29,144
    Accord 25,162
    Altima 21,785
    Fusion 21,740
    Sonata 19,872
    Malibu 15,746
    Optima 11,492
    200 8,348
    Passat 7,258
    Avenger 5,406
    Mazda6 3,100
    Legacy 3,090
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    Camry: 348,134
    Accord: 307,264
    Altima: 271,303
    Fusion: 248,033
    Sonata: 172,574
    Malibu: 170,696
    Optima: 135,548
    200: 111,207
    Passat: 91,522
    Avenger: 85,005
    Mazda6: 35,632
    Legacy: 36,441
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 10,180
    Several have commented that when they open the door of the 6 it's all over. I am not so sure.

    There are several interiors right now that all seem like variations on the same theme. The Fusion, the Sonata, and to some extent the Altima all have some similar themes. Accord and Camry are unique, some may think in a good way. Optima is also unique, but not necessarily in a good way. The Mazda strikes me as a more traditional or conservative design, but not necessarily a bad one. I saw one with the light-colored leather and quite liked it overall. The main thing for me that works against it is that the styling leaves the rear compartment feeling claustrophobic, with small window openings. But points to Mazda for offering a brighter trim choice than the ubiquitous and depressing all-black, and not copying the current dash design cliche.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,933
    I don't see what the angst over the Mazda6's interior is either. The dash design reminds me of some rather pricey European cars. Maybe the materials quality isn't on par with those cars, but the Mazda6 starts in the low $20s, not the $40s.

    But I also don't see any similarity whatsoever between the interior design of the Sonata and that of the Altima. Fusion, maybe, but executed quite differently.

    Camry is definitely unique... but NOT in a good way, IMO. I'm not crazy about the Accord's dash either, but at least it's better than the Camry's. I like the design of the Optima's dash. It's a bit retro, but nicely executed.

    The Mazda6 isn't the only current mid-sized car with small rear windows. The Sonata in particular is guilty of that, but I think a light (tan) interior alleviates the claustrophobia. The Fusion's are pretty small too. Doesn't seem to be hurting sales too much, as previous posts attest.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,155
    I find it amazing that Toyota continues to sell so many Camrys. Look at the numbers. YTD, it takes Toyota about 5 weeks to sell as many Legacys as Subaru does all year.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    Mazda doesn't have to production volume to sell as many 6's as Kia sells optima's, maybe that can change a bit when the new factory comes on line for the 3. I am pretty sure they are happier with the 3100 cars this year than they were with the 1900 or so they sold last year this time. Would they like to sell more, probably, but they are building them for the whole world at the same plant so they are production limited at the moment at least.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,555
    Camry sales are pretty much flat from last year.
    The competitors are up, so that means it's losing market share.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    All I said was that you found this issue in each of three testers! If all three exhibited this issue (which, yes, I have heard of previously) I stand by my initial reaction which struck me as an exaggeration. Consider what the odds are that you found three in what I interpret to be a relatively short period of time. If this issue was widespread enough to support your findings, I would think that Nissan would have been all over this to a much greater degree. Certainly any dealership that allows three testers in such a short period of time to allow an issue as serious as this to reveal itself, is negligent at the very least.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited November 2013
    Same here. I have my issues with Mazda on some levels, but I respect their out-of-the-box thinking with engine design. I'm staying tuned to see longevity reports on the SkyActive tech, as one example.

    I like that they aren't associated with Ford any more. Ford was an anchor.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 259
    After experiencing the airbag light and lugging (stuttering) in the Altima I went to the Altima forums. Those were two of the major gripes people had about their altimas and there was no shortage of those complaints. Interestingly enough, Nissan had a recall on the airbag light indicating no airbag for the passenger, but many of the people experienced the very same problem after the recall repair. Two of the altimas that I drove had build dates that were after the date set for the recall - when the "fix" was applied at the factory. I think they have a problem on their hands that they haven't fixed and I'm not remotely interested in driving a car with no airbag for the passenger. The lugging (stuttering) is a complaint for the 4 and 6 cyl altimas - just as it is for the cvt on the accord forums. I'm a cash buyer and it takes me a while to save $25-$35k so I'm picky. I acknowledge that. But if I'm going to spend that much money I feel I can be picky. Perhaps I will move up a class of cars to the genesis sedan or something comparable. Wife and I were talking about this this evening and I mentioned the Avalon. We are in our mid 50s and my wife said she wasn't remotely interested in an Avalon because it's an old person's car. How old, I asked. Someone in their 70s was her response. Having lived in Florida for a long time I think her statement has a lot of credibility. We're not in a hurry, but when we find what we want we'll know it and we'll buy it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I've struggled with women's reasoning the better part of my (similar to yours) years. If the Avalon had the content that ticked enough boxes on my list and I could afford its premium, I wouldn't consider for a moment that maybe the car appealed to a more mature demographic. That aspect is so low on my list it's a non issue...but that's me.

    I hope you both find something you'll be happy with and I respect the hard earned cash aspect in your pursuit.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    backy, the smiley car was meant to indicate a joke. It was not my intention to offend you. I'm sorry.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    edited November 2013
    Now that Ford's Flat Rock plant is making Fusions at full tilt, all 4 of the top manufacturers have the capacity to build at least 400,000 units of their midsize cars a year, which translates to about 33,000 a month. Toyota can actually build up to 475,000 Camrys a year, which is almost 40k a month. Since no one sold 33,000 last month, we can assume that inventories are rising, and that during the last two months there's going to be a big blowout and some huge numbers.

    It seems certain Camry will keep the lead, and I'm guessing total sales will be about 410,000 for the calendar year.

    I think the Accord will close the gap somewhat, and by year end sales will almost get to 400,000.

    My guess is that Altima and Fusion will end up somewhere around 350,000.

    And next year will be even more competitive....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • vservser Posts: 48
    I'm interested in the Avalon, and I'm in my 40s. It's a very solid car. I guess I'm old spirited.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    edited November 2013
    The Avalon is based on the Camry, which was rated "Poor" in the IIHS small overlap crash test. heir-designs.html

    "Toyota has a long way to go with crash test performance in the new "small overlap" crash tests from the IIHS. Their cars are doing well in the moderate overlap test, but in the small overlap, their cars are doing terrible. Honda has good performers in this test, as well as Subaru. The bad part is that some of Toyota's latest designs are performing poorly... the new Camry and new RAV4 are included... I am not sure how well the Avalon would perform.

    Read more: heir-designs.html#ixzz2jUeaIVdF
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292 ihs-crash-tests.html

    Honda Shines, Toyota Falls in Latest IIHS Crash Tests

    The 2013 Toyota Camry sedan and Prius v hybrid (above, right) failed a new crash test by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety that simulates a frontal impact overlapping a small portion of the car — say, piling into a tree from your left headlight. IIHS announced today its test of 18 model-year 2013 family cars. It's the largest yet for the so-called "small overlap" frontal test that many luxury brands failed in August 2012.

    At the other end, the Honda Accord sedan and nearly-defunct Suzuki Kizashi (above, left) earned IIHS' top score, Good; 11 other cars — including the Accord coupe — earned Acceptable ratings. The IIHS rates cars Good, Acceptable, Marginal or Poor. Of the 18 cars tested, the Toyotas scored Poor, but the Hyundai Sonata, Chevrolet Malibu and Volkswagen Jetta sedan scored Marginal.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,555
    Your information about the Avalon is out of date. That type of stuff happens a lot on this forum.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    Toyotas have performed poorly on the IIHS test. That's not out of date. Although the Avalon hasn't been tested, it would not be likely to do well either.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    But as you suggest, explorerx4, the current Avalon is based not on the Camry but on the Lexus ES, which also failed the IIHS test and got a Poor rating. So we're both right, in a sense....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,550
    You're wife is right on the previous Avalon being driven by mostly older Americans. It is because of the cushy ride it was known for plus the Toyota reputation for reliability. Toyota's Buick Le Sabre.

    This is an entirely different Avalon, with a taut ride and beautiful lines I think anyone would be happy to own it.
    Unfortunately $35k will not get you an Avalon that will have many of the niceties that a loaded mid-size would offer, but I would definitly choose an Avalon over an Altima. I think Nissan is kind of like Hyundai quality wise.

    Also, a car like the Optima will offer a sportier ride and great gobs of torque from the turbo motor. Your wife will not always be with you. It is YOUR money, so buy the one you will want to keep turning and looking at when you walk away in a parking lot.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    edited November 2013
    wayne21: As you know, most people around here tend to pitch for their own cars, and I'm no exception. There are lots of good choices--Optima, Mazda6, Fusion, as well as the car that I own, the 2013 Accord.

    You say you've written off the CVT Accord because of the stuttering or lugging. There were some early models with this problem. Apparently it was a software issue, and has been fixed. I own a 2013 Accord EXL 4 cylinder Navi with the CVT, and I don't have those issues that have been talked about. The benefit of the CVT is that it helps give the Accord excellent hwy mpg. I've gotten 36-40 mpg on highway trips, driving 65 mph + with the AC on.

    Other benefits of the Accord include: highest rating available on the IIHS small-offset crash test, unmatched by any other midsize car; the best visibility of any midsize car; near or at the top in acceleration; class exclusive features like lane departure warning, collision warning, etc.; the only standard back-up camera in the class.

    And, if the CVT bugs you, you could just skip it and go for the ultimate Accord, which is called the Touring. This model has the V-6 and a regular auto which about equals the BMW in acceleration, plus adaptive cruise control, etc.

    I know you've probably made your mind to write off the Accord, but my 2 cents is to give it a test drive with your wife. It's less of an "old persons" car than the Avalon. Of course the same is true about all of the other midsize cars.

    Anyway, there are lots of great choices, and you probably can't go wrong.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,555
    edited November 2013
    I understand that some people are more risk averse than others.
    You do realize some people drive vehicles with 2 wheels and no doors, right?
    It's not a big deal to everyone.
    Personally, crash testing is not high on my list when buying a vehicle.
    One of the reasons I moved from a small to a mid size car is because I feel it is less risky, although I still have my smaller than mid size 22 years old convertible.
    BTW, the link was to the crash test of a 2012 Lexus ES.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 259
    benjaminh - I would greatly appreciate it if you could type out the link to the 2012 Lexus ES test results. I know that some have stated the crash test doesn't mean much to them, but it does to me and the Lexus ES is something that my wife and I were going to consider and we wanted to know the partial offset crash test results. Thank you.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    IHS shows the Lexus does GOOD in all areas including the partial offset collision.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,555
    Lamest post here in a long time.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 259
    edited November 2013
    Thank you for the reply jayrider. However, all that shows up for me is a black "x" with facebook connect and I don't do facebook. So I googled it only to find that the Lexus ES350 actually failed the partial offset crash test. The article also made a few points on the test (#2 being most important to me):

    •This was the first time that the IIHS has used this new crash test, and 72% of the vehicles involved failed to pass.
    •It’s being reported that nearly a quarter of all serious and fatal automotive injuries are caused by this type of crash.
    •Every vehicle that was tested meets all federal safety standards and has done well in other crash tests.

    To explorerx4 - lamest post in a long time? Thank you for the feedback.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,555
    Provide a link to the test of the 2013 Lexus ES, or Avalon, failing the partial offset test, and I will apologize a thousand times.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    The 2013 (new) ES350-Avalon has not yet been tested in the "small overlap front"

    The old 2012 ES350 did fail the small overlap did the "new" (2013) camry
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 259
    edited November 2013 - - nts-in-protecting-people-in-frontal-crashes

    I googled 2012 lexus partial offset crash test. I was unaware ANY lexus had been tested - only knew of the camry - thus my question. Not looking to exchange apologies, merely looking for information on partial offset results. I had no interest in a lexus and really wasn't aware of a change from 2012 to 2013 so that lack of knowledge on my part probably caused confusion.

    I think the older one gets the more important safety becomes (maybe we want to be sure we prolong life or something - idk). As for me, I think I'm going to wait for the partial offset tests on anything that I am considering. I couldn't find anything on the Hyundai genesis sedan either, but all in good time. And as my wife and I have always agreed - it will take a 2 vote for anything we buy.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,292
    wayne21: I agree that these are important issues. Since the Avalon hasn't been tested on the small offset, we can only guess, but since most other Toyotas and Lexus vehicles tested have failed, it doesn't look good right now. Toyota is going to upgrade the structures of these cars and they'll do better in a year or so, but for now they are inferior to the competition. It's mostly Toyota that seems to get the "Poor" result. For instance, the Optima got an "Acceptable" rating, which is two notches above.

    For about a decade, Honda has been developing its Advanced Compatibility Engineering (ACE), which uses a special structure with high grade steel. This seems to be why they seem to be about the only company to earn the "Good" rating from the IIHS on the small overlap crash test. Here's a little more info:

    "The 2013 Accord unit-body uses 55.8-percent high-tensile steel, more than in any previous Accord. In addition, 17.2-percent of the steel is now grade 780, 980 and 1,500 – extremely high grades that have never before been used in any Accord.....Collision safety engineering includes the updated Advanced Compatibility Engineering™ (ACE™) body structure, which improves occupant protection and crash compatibility in frontal collisions...."

    Now I'm sounding like the Hyundai guy! Sorry about that...

    I really think there are a lot of cars that are about equal to the Honda Accord in most areas, including the Fusion, Optima, and Mazda6. And in some areas those cars are better. Most people like the styling of those cars better, and the most magazines like the handling of the Mazda6 better than the Accord. The Hyundai Sonata is a very good car too. The Hyundai Genesis is their luxury car. Very sharp. You might look at that one too.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
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