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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • vservser Posts: 48
    As I continue my quest for a new ride, I was able to take out an optima SX turbo w tech and premium today. I tried to pay attention to the main issues that I've read abt. Those issues are the road noise and rougher ride. I drove in on the Parkway and some local roads for a few hours. On the highway at 70-80 mph I did hear some wind noise, but nothing major. The steering wheel held steady at high speeds. There wasnt much drifting. There was limited if any turbo lag. If driven properly, the car gives you a lot of power on demand. On the side roads I did feel most of the bumps. I also felt very connected to the road. In some senses it was good and bad. As a reminder my other car that I'm interested in is the Avalon. I was able to drive the Avalon recently too. While the Av still felt the bumps it was a touch more forgiving. On the optima I did notice that the pedal was much more firm. Almost seemed like I had to work a little to stay on the gas pedal. The Av's gas pedal was softer and "Springier". Another difference was that the optima barely fit me. In other words if I leaned all the way towards the left side, the handle up top was close to my head. The optima could be defined as a cockpit. The Av was much more spacious. The optima's stereo was good. The Av was very good. The optima's seats were also very contoured whereas the Av's were decent but a little wider and a touch less supportive. Both infotainments were similar so that's a wash. As i type I think about whether I want to feel classier or sportier in my car. My life is a little of both. I drive a few hours a week for work and spend time working from home. I'm also a weekend warrior and enjoy playing a few sports. Even though the cars aren't in the same class, they're both semi finalists. IMHO if I can get the optima for 8k less it might be my choice. If the gap is only 5-6 k, I think the track record and residual value of the Av will be worth it.
  • Accord is a fine car, but lane departure warning and collision warning are not exclusive to the Accord in the mid-size segment, nor is true blind spot monitioring, cross traffic alert, active headlights or pre-collision braking available
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,906
    edited November 2013
    I didn't know that. Which other midsize cars have lane departure warning and forward collision warning?

    I think the Accord is the only one with the passenger side camera. My wife loves it. I could easily live without it, but I admit I like it and use it sometimes.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Don't confuse forward collision warning (which I think the Accord has on some trim levels...pretty sure I saw that on the window sticker of a Cdn 4 cyl EXL the other day..altho might have said 'braking' but don't think so at its price point) with forward collision braking. I wasn't aware any of the mainstream mid-sizers had that.

    All this stuff is such a potential HUGE money maker for the mfgrs. Ever since ABS tech incorporated traction control (the ability for an ABS hydraulic pump to be proactive in applying a brake independently of any operator input) it's all just a slight change of connections on what is probably the same damn IC board. If it costs them more than mere pennies to offer the FC braking aspect instead of just the FC warning, I'll eat my toast this morning burnt..All the tech needed is already there. It's no different than entry level cars charging $400 and up for cruise control, since drive-by-wire came along..ppfffttttt..Yet all this extra stuff has so much significance to some purchasers they actually decide on a car because of the toys, more than the driving dynamics of a particular car. The Koreans were the very first to figure this out and exploit our naivety and superficialness.

    That said, some of this tech has real world value worth more than the costs to offer it to the consumers, which I don't dispute for a second...but it's the mfgrs that are laughing all the way to the bank..
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    edited November 2013
    Here is the link. The 2013 ES 350 scored POOR in the small front overlap test.


    Why is everybody fighting this time?

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    ex'll "apologize a thousand times"

    Sure is gonna make for a busy board for the next little while, haha

    I noticed that vser I think it was liked the sound system in the SX. Not sure about the US but probably the same..our turbo has the Infinity Premium Audio, so no wonder it sounded good. I wonder if the Av also had an upscale unit? He said it sounded best, but the SX was good too.

    I am starting to focus more on my wants with my next vehicle. It has to have GREAT sound, be super quiet on the highway, and not jar my fillings loose on our frost heaved roads, but still has to have decent feedback from the wheel. Seat heaters, but NO sunroof, great supportive seats and head restraints that don't jam my head forward (that one is proving to be quite difficult), no run flat rubber, and a corrosion wty longer than 3 years...3 years Chrysler?? Seriously? only 3 years??? Afraid of something??

    I'd like a heated park area for the wipers but probably going to have to be flexible on that one. And the seatbelt can't rub my neck...or even come close..(also not so easy to find but easier than those dang anti-whiplash HRs :(
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    These "driver assistance" safety systems are just part of what is going to be auto-drive; or autonomous cars. The systems are going to be ready FAR before the roads and legislation are going to be....but in a much shorter time than folks realize there will be auto-drive sections or lanes in our nations highways. Personally I find these driver assistance "features" ridiculous. If you can't stay awake, or in your lane then you do not belong on the road until you can. I would be interested in auto-drive though where I could take a nap and then wake up refreshed enough to drive again. In other words I don't want half the system...I want the whole thing.

    The new Mercedes S class already has it. For 16 second intervals the car will drive all by its lonesome. After that an icon flashes (with a picture of a steering wheel and two red disembodied hands around it) to make sure you are still awake, or the car will pull to the shoulder and stop.

    The unintended benefit? Now it will be even easier to text while driving!


    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Ya, I just watched a clip on that S class this w/e..pretty cool but I gotta be me so insert :eye roll: here, haha

    I wonder how it deals with a deer jumping out on a really slick, icy/slushy road? The whole system will wanna fry itself from too much processing overload.. Perhaps when it first senses a wet surface.. a seat vibrator with a message that says, "Put the damn phone away". "Idiot". lol
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 258
    Thanks for that link cski. I think it's sad that the 2013 lexus - newly redesigned - failed the partial offset crash test. IDK if Toyota places a small emphasis on this test for some reason or if they just failed in their engineering. But that test may or may not mean something to different people. To me it is a deal killer! I spoke with my son earlier today. He bought a new lexus GS350 in August and I asked him how he felt about it failing the partial offset test. He told me the subject came up when he was buying the car and the dealership told him the camry failed, but the lexus is a "different animal" and passed with flying colors. Imagine that! But he also told me it didn't make a difference to him one way or the other and he bought the car because he liked it and wanted it.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    Try adjusting the seat again. I am 6'2" and 280, and I have plenty of room. Our interiors are identical in every way that matters, with the exception of the sunroof. I don't have one. A loaded SX does, but I can't imagine it would cut into headroom that much while leaning to the left.

    I am very very comfortable in mine. I get tired and my back starts to hurt after about 350 miles, but then again I am heavy so I think that is mostly my fault.

    On the highway stability, I can attest to that. once in the lane she does not drift. Easy ride on the interstate. The exhaust doesn't drone and the wind noise is very low at 75-80 mph, which is the acceptable speed through VA, NC, and SC on I-95. Mid range passing power is excellent.

    One of the things I most like on the Optima is that it rarely sounds like a 4 cyl. Hyundai-Kia did an extraordinary job in tuning the motor and trans, and they work very smoothly together. As long as I stay off ECO mode, it always has the right gear ready when I need it. I only use the paddles to downshift at lights or to back off my speed at bit to save my brake pads.

    It is a very satisfying car to drive, cheap to own, and everyone loves the way it looks.

    I think you might want to drive the Honda Accord V6 Touring though before you make a decision. If I was thinking about buying closer to $32,000...I would at least test it. It does have a 6 speed automatic and 278 HP.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I think it's important to consider that with any of these vehicles an impact variation of mere inches one way or the other could render different results. Same with what you are hitting. Even a tractor trailer rig hit at the same offset as the rounded off concrete or steel in the lab, would be more forgiving as the bumper would fold quickly into the front tire of the truck, also a much less formidable object to hit compared to a fixed object designed to not give at all.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    Damn shame. The 2013 ES 350 is a fine looking automobile. Lexus did a good job on it. The 2012 was much plainer looking.

    So, any finalists? Narrowing it down? I think you have covered on all of the major points, and there comes a time when you gotta go for it.

    How are you on trying the Accord V6 Touring? It's gotta 6 speed auto! Poor mans BMW. I wish it had the 18" wheels, but if you wait until Dec. 30th to buy, the salesman may take them off a Sport and bolt them on yours for one more sale!!! LOL.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,930
    Who is fighting? I'm just trying point out the facts.
    link to IIHS for ES350
    If you want to use for your info, feel free.
    I prefer to go to the source. :surprise:
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 258
    I wouldn't touch an accord, but that's just me. Bad experience with multiple transmissions and a front motor mount (never had either of these replaced in anything else I have driven in my 40 years as a driver). Honda has a long history of transmission problems and IDK what the issue was for consumer reports to not recommend the 6 cyl accord. Someone here who may have been privy to the info stated it was the radio/infotainment system, but IDK. If I had to guess I would guess it was the oil burning 6 cyl (class action suit filed against them on this issue up thru 2012 - class action obviously wouldn't include future cars like the 2013, but it's the same engine with direct inject) or the 6 speed transmission which they've had more than their share of problems with (if you google it).

    I'm in no hurry to buy, but I think I'm going to wait for the new Hyundai genesis - after the crash test ratings - or my wife even mentioned an infiniti Q50. I have issues with the infiniti, however. I really don't care that much about the cost of the car, but there are a couple of issues for me on the infiniti (I know, I know, difficult/picky customer). They come with leatherette (which I prefer to call it what it is - vinyl) and leather doesn't seem to be an option. And my second issue is premium unleaded. One could say if you can afford the car you can afford the gas and I agree. But it's not that I can't afford it, but it's the idea of it. Come on! It's a 6 cylinder! If 8 cyl engines with over 400 h.p. can run on 87 octane why can't a 6 cylinder? From a practical standpoint, if I'm paying an additional 20 percent per gallon of gas - to calculate my EPA mileage I would reduce it by 20 percent (as if I were using 87 octane) and "per dollar" vs. per gallon, I then see the EPA as 16 and 23/24. That's not acceptable to me. And I just looked and although the Q50 crash tests weren't available, the G37 results were... and they are less than impressive. I think I'll just wait for something that fits all my "wants" and if it doesn't show up I'll just forego buying something for the sake of having a new car.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    edited November 2013
    Touche' , but I didn't have to. It literally took me less than 30 seconds to find a respected national automotive publication stating the 2013 Lexus ES 350 failed the offset frontal impact test.

    If is reporting erroneous information, then I bet Lexus is very, very unhappy about it. What you found said "moderate offset crash". Not sure what the difference is. I know my Optima passed and so I bought it.

    I still want those 1000 apologies! :) A deals a deal! LOL.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    Wow man, you put a LOT of thought into cars. More than me. I forgot you were the Honda guy with 3 transmissions in under 100k. Yeah. Not good.

    Ohhhhhh, OK. Frankly from the way your posts sounded I thought you would be buying very soon. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    edited November 2013
    The G37 is a really old design, so if I were you I wouldn't read anything into the Q50's crash worthiness based on the G37.

    One car you haven't mentioned that might meet your requirements is the S60. Has the highest IIHS crash test rating, the legendary Volvo seats, fun to drive, runs on regular unleaded, starts in the low-$30s. On the smallish side compared to other cars you're looking at, but maybe worth a drive.

    The other car you might want to reconsider is the Legacy. I know you said you live in FL so "I don't need AWD", but I live in MN where Subarus are popular, and I don't "need" AWD for 99% of the driving I do either. It's that 1% in snow or even heavy rain (and it DOES rain in FL, right?) where AWD helps, plus it helps overall handling even in good weather. And it's got a lot of what you're looking for in a car, such as top safety ratings and highly reliable.
  • vservser Posts: 48
    The interior of the accord just bugs me. I might be able to get a v6 w Nav and tech for 30.

    The Av stereo is 11 speaker 785 watts. That's only in the limited tho. Both stereos are wayyyyy better than the accord. Id be happy w either stereo. I'm 5 9 so I hear ya. I fit, just barely tho. Maybe I'm comparing it to the Av's interior.

    Would you buy another kia given the opp?
  • Lane departure warning is available on the Altima, Fusion and Mazda6. Forward collision warning available on the Fusion and Mazda6. "City Braking" available on the Mazda6 which will apply brakes if you are going under 20 mph and it detects an impending collision. These are the one's I'm aware about.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 6,571
    I think your summation nails it. If you can get the Kia for a significant difference vs. the Avalon, it probably makes sense. The Kia HP rating is likely overstated but it likely compares to other makes with a rated 220-240 HP. If you keep it a long time you might run into some issues that the Avalon would not have, and you are trading off some refinement and comfort for the sportiness. But an $8000 difference probably makes that trade worthwhile.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,930
    You should be the one (of several) apologizing for posting misinformation.
    Not only that, you don't even understand the topic.
    Hopefully, some day you will learn to drink from the fountain of truth, not from the trough of I read it on the internet so it must be true. HA HA.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Fountain of truth? I suspect that instead, cski, like a good number of the rest of us, are so use to blatant bias on this forum, that not everything is written in stone...until it is..

    At least he has a sense of humour...and encourages it in others even if often the attempt is futile.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    edited November 2013

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Do it soon...about Feb?, cuz I'll need to thaw out around about then and I'll drive down and buy yours as a well cared-for and loved used car. I know it lacks the heated seats I'm looking for but life is full of compromises..:)
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 25,733
    my son was looking at cars on the internet yesterday (he just graduated college, and if he can ever land a permanent job will be looking for a new one) and for some reason was looking at the Mazda, and showed it to me saying that it looked really good.

    2018 Hyundai Elantra Sport (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,504
    edited November 2013
    I saw a 2012 SX turbo loaded to the gills, for $24,000 with 12,000 miles on it on You should go for it gimmee!! I bet you could snag it for $22 thousand! - 288&tracktype=usedcc&aff=national#0

    I mean, what more could you ask for in a low mileage car that looks like this and has just 25 short of 300 hp? ...and it still gets 34 mpg highway? and has 100,000 mile warranty?

    I think it is safe to say that I will definitely be buying another Optima at this point, but you never know the future for sure. There are a vast number of cars that I can picture myself owning. I want a rear drive car again too at some point.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    Funny how you should mention the s60. It’s actually the reason I got the Mazda6.
    When my Camry lease ended last October, my intention was to get the new Accord but I was waiting for the price to come down. Meanwhile, my wife was driving an Accord that she had to take away from her mother. Her car had always been an AWD SUV and since I wan’ts making progress getting the 2013 Accord, she asked to flip-flop and I took my mother-in-law’s car and my wife got an AWD s60.
    After driving the Volvo, I now needed two “must haves” on my next car, blind spot monitoring and active headlights and the Mazda6 was the only one in my price range
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    >>and has 100,000 mile warranty

    Funny thing about the warranty, I'm not certain it sways many people. I was speaking to one of our finance VP's who keeps his vehicles, for what seems, forever. He's currently driving a 99 Accord...

    Anyway...around here KIA is advertising 20 year, 200,000 warranty. I told him about this and how the "new" KIA's are very competitive...he still says he'd go for another Honda. He can't get past the KIA badge and believe the Honda would be better long term.

    I'll probably persuade him to drive one whenever he's looking for a replacement (probably in the next couple years).
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,030
    Warranties don't translate to better products. It just means the factory has to add enough to the cost of the vehicle to cover any warranty repairs. You can typically buy the same lengthy coverage on other brands, and some people would rather have zero or one out of warranty problem as opposed to having 3 or 4 problems covered by the longer warranty.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    I don't think the 100k warranty transfers to the second owner.
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