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Comments

  • brian125brian125 New York Posts: 5,212
    You posted a Study from 1999 that speed doesn't kill . My link is updated to 2017. Numbers don't lie unless they are fudged like you insinuated.

    2016 BMW X-5 35i, 2012 MB ML350

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875
    brian125 said:

    You posted a Study from 1999 that speed doesn't kill . My link is updated to 2017. Numbers don't lie unless they are fudged like you insinuated.

    OK, which numbers? And are they reflective of "per million miles traveled? (usually shown as PMM).
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875
    edited April 2018
    brian125 said:

    You posted a Study from 1999 that speed doesn't kill . My link is updated to 2017. Numbers don't lie unless they are fudged like you insinuated.

    The study linked via your link that you posted is just a summary abstract list of unsubstantiated conclusions.

    https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2017-DCA15SS002-BMG-Abstract.pdf

    It's clear their main goal is automated enforcement which is obviously about $$$$$.

    Their first finding:

    Speed increases the likelihood of serious and fatal crash involvement, although the exact
    relationship is complex due to many factors


    Now that's laughable. It is so complex because the data and numbers don't support their assertions, assumptions, and conclusions. In this context, complex = non-existent.

    The MO seems to be when the studies don't support your political positions, either fudge the numbers or call it "complex."

    My favorite line of all:

    The relationship between speed and crash involvement is complex, and it is affected by
    factors such as road type, driver age, alcohol impairment, and roadway characteristics like
    curvature, grade, width, and adjacent land use. In contrast, the relationship between speed and
    injury severity is consistent and direct.


    So if your 90 years old, blind, drunk, and speeding on a narrow 1-lane road with kids running around, okay maybe just then speed kills. :smile:
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 4,056
    In other words, speed is a factor in accidents, and it’s one (like not drinking and driving) the driver can control.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,126
    edited April 2018
    Alissa Walker is definitely one of those hysterical Green Weenie/Safety Geeks who think that the book 1984 had a happy ending...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited April 2018
    If you raised the speed limit to 125, I bet you could prove that speed kills. :p

    I seem to recall a poll taken of experienced race drivers, and they asked them something like this: "At what speed, on a public road, would you stop daydreaming, having a smoke or driving with one hand and seriously start to focus on the road?"

    The averaged-out answer was, I believe, 93 mph.
  • berriberri Posts: 9,955
    Let's be honest about it all. Much too often it is really about the ticket m-o-n-e-y.
  • john4545john4545 Posts: 136

    If you raised the speed limit to 125, I bet you could prove that speed kills. :p

    I seem to recall a poll taken of experienced race drivers, and they asked them something like this: "At what speed, on a public road, would you stop daydreaming, having a smoke or driving with one hand and seriously start to focus on the road?"

    The averaged-out answer was, I believe, 93 mph.

    @Mr_Shiftright

    I agree with you.. My 77 Grand prix with the long hood was a tank. I bounced off cars, tree's ,poles, etc at low speeds back in the day. If I had crashed at 90 / 100 mph I probably would not be here today. Todays car is made out of tissue paper..... a high speed crash in todays times are more likely to result in death than years ago.

  • john4545john4545 Posts: 136
    berri said:

    Let's be honest about it all. Much too often it is really about the ticket m-o-n-e-y.

    Excellent point . Same applies with Religion keeps people in check . If people did not fear the heaven & hell scenario... God only knows what folks may do?

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,398
    andres3 said:

    You do realize your own link finds the cause of the increase in crashes to be, and I quote:

    "Crashes attributable to unsafe lane changes increased 66 percent on 70-mph interstates and highways."

    Unsafe lane changes are the cause of your accidents in Ohio, not speed. You can make an unsafe lane change at any speed, whether it be 5 MPH, 55 MPH, or 155 MPH. I would say most unsafe lane changes are due to incompetence, obliviousness, distraction, non-situationally aware, and failure to look and use ones own eyeballs.

    I'll assume you're taking that position on ignoring the speeder component just to make an argument. The greater the frictional speed difference in the traffic, the more lane changes occur. Those lane changes are due to the speed difference.

    When the speed limits were 65, e.g., the the higher end of the Bell curve might average 70 mph. But when the speed limits went to 70, the higher end moved to 82 or so. The difference between those and the trucks and the drivers in the right two lanes of a 3-lane freeway just became greater from 82/63 vs 70/63.

    The left lane dominator egos among the speeders in the left lane feel the one lane should be kept open, almost unused, except for their high speed pleasure. They tailgate. They flash their headlights at anyone daring to use "their" reserved lane even if going 80. The "other," "little people" drivers, in the mind of the left lane dominator should stay out of their way using only the right two lanes--requiring more lane changes for those drivers to move around slower traffic such as trucks in the right two lanes.

    I watched this process of attitude of the left laners on my recent drive to Pigeon Forge. There are two kinds of left laners, the dominators and the users. The dominators never move out of their left lane, even if there is a middle lane open. Yet they are the ones to yell that some highways or some states have a slower traffic keep right rule suggested.

    The users are folks who want to get somewhere and speed, but they move safely over making those lane changes they expect all the "little people" to make in their use of the right two lanes out of a 3 lane road, and boogie on ahead. Often they outpace the dominator who's busy trying to play ego war with someone daring to go under 90 in the left lane.

    The best use of the highways built by tax money paid by most citizens is for all lanes to be used. Traffic flows best--not just for the 1%ers who feel the left lane swamp is theirs alone for use.

    The lane changes caused by the excessive speeds of a few are the causes of the increased accidents.


    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    I can’t decide if anti-speeders have some agenda or if they’re simply incapable of logical thinking. And I’m talking about 5-10 over the limit not 20. That’s reckless driving.

    One reason I see for speed limits to be set too low in GA is that only the state patrol can write tickets for less than 10 mph over the limit. So if they set the limit appropriately to let’s say 55 the locals can’t write tickets until 65. If you make it 45 then the local can write tickets at 56. I’d much rather see a 55 mph limit with a 5 mph grace.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think some math or statistical genius could probably figure out the optimal speed limit--the point at which advantages start to fall off.

    My prediction would be that if speeds got too high, we'd see more single-car accidents, the result of some drivers not being able to handle the dynamics of high-speed maneuvers.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    You might see more accidents because people don’t know how to drive and keep a safe following distance at higher speeds. But that’s just bad driving.

    On interstates the only high speed maneuver necessary would be to avoid something that falls into the road. Even stopped traffic wouldn’t be an issue with proper driving.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    You often see people hitting the rail when exiting at too high a speed.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,322
    edited April 2018
    Another one bites the dust. Ford announces that the Fusion is dead as of this generation....

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/04/ford-crossover-company-report-says-ford-swap-cars-cuvs/

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,622
    hopefully they keep at least 1 smaller/midsize sedan. Make the Focus a little bigger, and split the difference?

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,322
    stickguy said:

    hopefully they keep at least 1 smaller/midsize sedan. Make the Focus a little bigger, and split the difference?

    According to the announcement, all sedans will be dead at Ford by 2020. The Focus, Taurus, and Fiesta are also being killed.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 8,543
    Wow... that’s pretty stunning.  I guess they have to focus on what sells 

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,322
    Another story on it from Car and Driver....

    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/abandon-car-ford-dropping-all-passenger-car-models-except-mustang

    "Abandon Car! Ford Dropping All Passenger-Car Models Except Mustang
    The crossovers have officially won.
    APRIL 25, 2018 AT 7:45 PM BY CLIFFORD ATIYEH
    In an unprecedented move that may reshape the entire auto industry, Ford will stop building all sedans and hatchbacks and shift production to crossovers and trucks. It is, by far, the company’s most dramatic production change in its 115-year history since Henry Ford adopted the assembly line.

    In its first-quarter statement on Wednesday, the company said it will sell only two car models for the U.S. market within the “next few years” and that it will “not invest in next generations of traditional Ford sedans for North America.”
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,622
    I think it is a stupid idea. But they don't ask my opinion.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,322
    edited April 2018
    This guy says that auto stop/start is just designed to "game" CAFE....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 10,404
    stickguy said:

    I think it is a stupid idea. But they don't ask my opinion.

    I agree. I think Ford is doing some stupid things of late.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,126

    You often see people hitting the rail when exiting at too high a speed.

    I've tried to sucker a few idjits into keeping up with me on a tight on or off ramp. I once had an old Trans Am get waaay out of shape; it was a two lane ramp and raining- I passed him on the inside. He just had to impress his flaky girl friend and he floored it. The back end stepped out a lot- but not enough to tag the guardrail... :(

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • berriberri Posts: 9,955
    I guess if a new president and congress come in down the road and go back to stricter mileage, or gas goes sky high they can revert to overseas operations to modify and reintroduce cars again. They really let their models go stale and seem to have also done a bit to themselves following Nissan over cost cutting on them.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875
    suydam said:

    In other words, speed is a factor in accidents, and it’s one (like not drinking and driving) the driver can control.

    Except it isn't, because most accidents don't occur at high speeds, so if it is a factor, perhaps if it shows anything, it shows going slow is more dangerous.

    IF it was a factor, there would be an uncomplicated correlation they could state without muddying the waters with drunkeness and other factors.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875
    edited April 2018

    You often see people hitting the rail when exiting at too high a speed.

    Yes, but I found it interesting "at least in the movies" they run simulations with other pilots when something bad happens (the Sully landing) to see if the same bad results happen to other operators. So if I or Lewis Hamilton can handle that same turn in the same Lexus at the speed they crashed at, was it the speed, or the driver error that was the problem?

    I vote driver error, and/or going too fast for conditions (too fast for the driver's skill level = driver error, or too fast for a turn/ramp; provided Hamilton crashed too), and I have a hard time considering going too fast for conditions the same as speeding.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875

    If you raised the speed limit to 125, I bet you could prove that speed kills. :p

    I seem to recall a poll taken of experienced race drivers, and they asked them something like this: "At what speed, on a public road, would you stop daydreaming, having a smoke or driving with one hand and seriously start to focus on the road?"

    The averaged-out answer was, I believe, 93 mph.

    Yes, but I bet that was 25 years ago, road cars have advanced, and, it assumes a public road with other traffic. Ask them the same question with little to no traffic in consideration, and it'll be 123 (in a German vehicle).
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875

    andres3 said:

    You do realize your own link finds the cause of the increase in crashes to be, and I quote:

    "Crashes attributable to unsafe lane changes increased 66 percent on 70-mph interstates and highways."

    Unsafe lane changes are the cause of your accidents in Ohio, not speed. You can make an unsafe lane change at any speed, whether it be 5 MPH, 55 MPH, or 155 MPH. I would say most unsafe lane changes are due to incompetence, obliviousness, distraction, non-situationally aware, and failure to look and use ones own eyeballs.

    I'll assume you're taking that position on ignoring the speeder component just to make an argument. The greater the frictional speed difference in the traffic, the more lane changes occur. Those lane changes are due to the speed difference.

    When the speed limits were 65, e.g., the the higher end of the Bell curve might average 70 mph. But when the speed limits went to 70, the higher end moved to 82 or so. The difference between those and the trucks and the drivers in the right two lanes of a 3-lane freeway just became greater from 82/63 vs 70/63.

    The left lane dominator egos among the speeders in the left lane feel the one lane should be kept open, almost unused, except for their high speed pleasure. They tailgate. They flash their headlights at anyone daring to use "their" reserved lane even if going 80. The "other," "little people" drivers, in the mind of the left lane dominator should stay out of their way using only the right two lanes--requiring more lane changes for those drivers to move around slower traffic such as trucks in the right two lanes.

    I watched this process of attitude of the left laners on my recent drive to Pigeon Forge. There are two kinds of left laners, the dominators and the users. The dominators never move out of their left lane, even if there is a middle lane open. Yet they are the ones to yell that some highways or some states have a slower traffic keep right rule suggested.

    The users are folks who want to get somewhere and speed, but they move safely over making those lane changes they expect all the "little people" to make in their use of the right two lanes out of a 3 lane road, and boogie on ahead. Often they outpace the dominator who's busy trying to play ego war with someone daring to go under 90 in the left lane.

    The best use of the highways built by tax money paid by most citizens is for all lanes to be used. Traffic flows best--not just for the 1%ers who feel the left lane swamp is theirs alone for use.

    The lane changes caused by the excessive speeds of a few are the causes of the increased accidents.


    I'm not ignoring the speeder component, it's just your article doesn't support that component. If anyone is ignoring anything, it is you ignoring the numbers. Unsafe lane changes occur from anyone at any speed. It is not caused by speeders.

    More often than not, I'm sure it is caused by a slow poke changing lanes at the exact wrong time someone going faster (and has the right of way in their own lane by the way). Therefore, it's not the speeder changing lanes and causing the accident, it is the slowpoke that changes lanes, usually to get in the passing lane with no intent of passing anyone at all. A pointless lane change, but a very dangerous one. Other lane changes might be caused by left lane campers/impeders, that fail to yield the passing lane, and then you get passing cars changing lanes to the right. This adds another lane where an unsafe lane change by the slower vehicle could result in a wreck.

    Sometimes left lane impeders accelerate when people try to pass on the right. This might cause an inattentive speeder (although they are both speeders now), to not realize the left lane camper is racing, change lanes back to the left, and collide.

    Without more data, all we know is that unsafe lane changes are being made, and it's causing 66% of the increased accidents (not a few, I'd say).
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875
    stickguy said:

    hopefully they keep at least 1 smaller/midsize sedan. Make the Focus a little bigger, and split the difference?

    ISN'T THAT WHAT ACURA DID? combining the TL and TSX to make the TLX. I don't think they are setting the world on fire with that strategy. I'm not sure who is buying the RLX.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,875

    I think some math or statistical genius could probably figure out the optimal speed limit--the point at which advantages start to fall off.

    My prediction would be that if speeds got too high, we'd see more single-car accidents, the result of some drivers not being able to handle the dynamics of high-speed maneuvers.

    I'm all for someone trying to disprove the 85th percentile being the optimum. In CA, I vote for 90th percentile limits, and you can have 80th percentile limits in other States. Maybe need a control group to stick with 85th percentile.

    Oh wait, were not doing that on our Interstates, already, oh well! The 85th percentile only seems to be adopted on non-highways.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
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