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Half-ton Pickups - The full field



  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    But I can't spin like you. Olay! :P

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Where did you get those screwy figures from? They are not in GM's press release. Now the problem for GM is those figures I posted ( Yes Dr they do include the Avalanche ) also include all the GMT800's ( Classic ) sold since the beginning of the year.

    This means that the GMT800's last year really kicked the hell out of the brand spanking new GMT900's. What is it about the new models that the buyers don't like?

    To get the sales of the 'New' Tundra you'd have to deduct Jan 07 sales and at least half of Feb 07 sales to get an accurate estimate. There were a few isolated 'Old' models left in March.

    This is even more important, in the mid-priced retail buyer segment which is the only small niche Toyota is really competing they may be way ahead of both the Ram and the Sierra and near the two biggies. Choosing the ground on which you want to do battle is often the first step to victory.

    It's also the most lucrative segment so that's the one to win.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    ...are posted here, every month: Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer??

    The Avalanche is an SUV and shares very little with the Silverado besides the 4 doors and windshield... it's a Suburban with its rear roof removed.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • The Avalanche is just as much Pick-up as it is SUV, it has a BOX!!! And again, if the Av and Sierra buyers did not have these vehicles to choose from, which truck would they have bought? That is why it is more fair/accurate to include these buyers than to not include them. If Toyota offered more than just ONE option in LD trucks, they would most certainly have less Tundra sales as well. Think about it!!!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    GM classifies and reports it as a 'full sized pickup' so just to keep consistent with the published stats I go with the Silvy and Av together.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    So I do as well.

    Nobody cares what somebody would've, could've, should've bought. There is a reason why they bought one model over another, or over another marque.

  • An article in the FoxNews business section says Sept. 2007 Toyota truck sales are down 5.7% from Sept. 2006, and Toyota car sales are down 3.5% from Sept. 2006, which was their best month ever. Ford pickups are down a whopping 21% from last Sept.

    Any sales comparison of the new Tundra vs. the old Tundra is like saying we sold more raisins this year than we sold cherries last year. Next year's Tundra sales figures will be much more meaningful.

    However, I think those figures indicate that sales overall of gas guzzling trucks is down. The economy is slowing (witness Fed Chariman Bernanke's recent loosening of the money supply), and gas prices have risen from last year.

    Well Duh.

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    'Trucks', for reporting purposes, include both pickups ( +19% ), the Sienna ( -29% ) and all the SUVs ( -10% ). In total they were down ~5%.

    Link:Sept 07 and YTD sales

    It's the SUVs that are taking it in the neck at every vehicle maker. As gas stays at about $3 a gallon and most SUVs cost $30000 - $50000 this segment of 'trucks' is going to drag down the stats of every vehicle maker. This segment may never come back...
    ..a lot of them are being replaced by crossovers
    ..if gas goes to $5 a gallon only the filthy rich or those that absolutely need an 8-pass V8 will own them.

    Sequoia .... -29% YTD
    4Runner .... -17%
    Expedition . +18%
    Explorer ... -24%
    Durango .... -30%
    TB / Envoy . -26%
    Tah/Yuk .... -10%

    Pickup trucks OTOH are pretty stable except for Ford's planned contraction.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Pickup trucks OTOH are pretty stable except for Ford's planned contraction.

    Maybe I missed something, but did Ford plan to lose market share, and then mount a large ad campaign as a defense of their truck's status as #1? I'm confused. :confuse:

  • I have a 2001 F-250 with the V10. Noticed a clicking on the passenger side of the engine. Found 5 broken (Rusted) manifold studs on that side. Found 4 on drivers side. Only have 50,000 miles on vehicle. Talked with a number of other F- series owners from 1998-2003, with both the 5.4 and V-10. All looked and found same problem. Dealer is pricing the repair at about 500.00 per side, if everything goes well. 1000.00 total. Extreme could be as high as 3000.00, if cab has to be removed. How many other F-series out there have the same problem? So far 100% of the owners I have talked with have the same problem
  • Friends don't let friends buy Ford! Might want to move up to a real truck, like the new Tundra.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Actually yes they did plan to lose market share, Doc. One of the statements made last year when they took their $13 Billion reorganization hit was that maintaining market share at the expense of profitability was dumb.

    They closed what was one of their best assembly plants for the F150 ( Norfolk ) which took over a hundred thousand vehicles out of production. The remaining plants were expected to increase production somewhat and thereby become more efficient. It's probably worked just like they planned. But the F150 is old and outside of the interiors it's at the bottom of the pack in most categaries. For the time being though the F-Series is still the top brand.
  • bristol2bristol2 Posts: 736
    When you get laid off, hope you can afford gas for your tundra

    I don't have a dog in this hunt, however the Tundra has brought more than 3000 jobs to San Antonio, boosted rail freight, added schools etc etc.
    It's not as straight forward as 'buy Japanese v. buy American' which I'm guessing was your point.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Debate the trucks, not the people commenting on them.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • I deleted my reply. Sorry bout that
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    way of the ranger. From class leading to the bottom of the heap with the last major redesign in 1998. Sometimes you just can't figure out what they are thinking.
  • bristol2bristol2 Posts: 736
    Ford is kind of a wild card right now.

    I will say that it looks like they did okay with the 'Taurus/ 500' switch so hopefully they will get it right with the F-150.

    With so much riding on the F-150 (Expy is dependant also)they better get it right or the N.America market is going to be lost.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    And their 5.4 won't be replaced for another 3 years. :lemon:

    Toyota turns up the heat for 2008:

    You can get a 4WD DC with the 5.7 for less than $28k! :shades:

  • hey kcram, any word on when the next gen ford ranger is coming out? I've heard rumors that their Australian division has already re-engineered their version of the ranger that could make its way here. why is it taking so long to redesign this truck. its like a 20 year old chassis.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    way of the ranger. From class leading to the bottom of the heap with the last major redesign in 1998. Sometimes you just can't figure out what they are thinking.

    Here's some additional background about the Ranger. There is now a Free Trade Agreement ( FTA ) with Thailand sitting waiting to be signed by both countries. So what.

    Well Thailand is the 2nd largest producer of trucks in the world after the US. They make most of the trucks for Asia. The manufacturers are Toyota, Nissan, Ford !!! et al. The redesigned Ford Ranger diesel has been out in Asia for at least 2 yrs now. It's every bit as up-to-date as the Toyota HiLux diesel ( Tacoma ) which is considered the best truck in the world for most of the world. Nissan's diesel is also world class.

    Why aren't these three world class diesels here already and why is Ford letting the Ranger and the St Paul plant wither away? Well when the FTA with Thailand is finally approved all those world class diesels will be free of the 25% 'chicken tax' and will be allowed to come here. There is no need to keep a UAW-controlled plant in existance if they can import more profitable up-to-date diesels.

    One article from link
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    I think Ford is content to leave the Ranger where it is, as it's now the only true "compact" truck - the Tacoma, Frontier, and Colorado/Canyon have all grown to the Dakota "midsize" class.

    But since this is the half-ton discussion, I'd suggest drumming up some interest in the What would the ideal redesigned Ranger be like? discussion :)

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    From earlier this year?

    I thought the Chevy 5.3 would be much more efficient than that. Pretty decisive test! :surprise:

  • What would Toyota fans do without that CR crutch to lean on? Fall right on their face? I know you will refuse to believe that CR is biased and/or has no idea how to conduct a test, so I won't even go there. But let me bring up the towing test that pitted the top of the line 5.7 Tundra with 4.30 gears against the middle-pack 5.3 Silvy with 3.73's. You call that apples to apples? Was it biased or just plain ignorant? You tell me. Why were they afraid to use the Vmax 6.0 with 4.10's? hmmm?
  • gotoyotagotoyota Posts: 280
    Afraid? I think not, but go ahead and keep dreaming if that makes you feel better. The Tundra would have slaughtered the 6.0 Chevy in terms of driveline performance under towing conditions, due to its stronger, broader powerband and more efficient use of gearing. The 6.0 may not have been available at the time of testing. But surely the Tundra's "inferior" frame would have bent in half as it tried in vain to keep up with the mighty Chevy 6.0, so at least you have that to lean on. :surprise:
  • The 6.0 Chevy was available before the first Tundra came off the line. So, then why didn't CR use it?

    Slaughtered huh? Even after the Tranny failed? Or like you mentioned, the frame buckled? Surely you do know there is more to towing capacity than just HP/Torque, right? Why else do you think the Crewcab Vmax with 4.10's has a higher towing cap than the 5.7 Crewmax? Even with 14 less HP. Why is that?
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    I know you are not fond of toyota. But could you tell me if you like anything about the 07 SR5 crewmax 4WD tundra? This is not a dig at you I am just curious. h20 btw this is for anythingbutoy
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    to tow a SD....a little sag in the bed...just a little but seriously noticeable

    Tundra bed sag

    Could it be that new frame?
  • I get a big laugh every time you guys talk about your domestic trucks and how great they are,i have been building houses now for 13 years,i have seen them all,drove them all,so please, tell that crap to someone else,back in 2002 we got a brand new F250 4door 8ft bed ,we put a READIND cap on it for all the tools,about 2 months down the road the bed started to spread at the tailgate ,not too long after the bed started to sag ,before it actualy got fixed ,it sagged about 4 inches,this truck was such crap ,they had to add two extra leaf springs in the rear on each side,from that time until now that thing spatted 8 sparkplugs,WOW GREAT TRUCKS :sick: later that same year we got a 2002 silverado HD2500,after dealing with the FORD we didnot hesitate to also beaf up the silverado springs before it hit the job site,try driving that chevy on loose gravle, :sick: that thing is very weak,try merging on to the highway ,you better make sure there is nothing at all coming,you need atleast 20 seconds to getup to 50 mph,we have now traded 1 siera and one f150 for 2 tundra 4.7 crew cab and 1 5.7 crew max,the only complain so far from the guys ,15 mpg average,hard to get useto blind spot,to all who are yappind about great domestic trucks, tell that crap to people online,who knows no better,i for one knows the tundras cannot be any worste,i know you are going to say i am comparing older trucks to the tundra,but are you going to admit they are just starting to build decent trucks? :P atleast i thaught they was,check consumeraffairs to see a brand new f150 burning to the ground :lemon: , .......October 5, 2007
    A new risk of fire in Ford SUVs has prompted a recall from the Ford Motor Corp. Ford is recalling about 1,500 2008 Explorer, Explorer Sport Track and Mercury Mountaineer SUVs equipped with the 4.6 liter engine and 6R transmission.

    A bolt securing the oil cooler line fittings at the transmission may not have been tightened sufficiently at the Ford assembly plant.

    If the bolt loosens, the transmission cooler lines can leak fluid on to the vehicle's the catalytic converter posing the fire risk
  • To All,

    With freedom comes responsibility. I think anyone who posts should disclose whether they have any finacial interest in either advocating for or against the vehicle they are discussing. A lot of people read these posts and they help to inform the buying public, which is a fantastic public service which Edmunds is to be commended for.

    Here's my pledge regarding all the posts I've made, especially regarding the Tundra and the Silverado:
    "I swear I have no financial interest in either General Motors or Toyota. I have never sold, nor do I sell now, any vehicles on a commercial basis. I am not currently employed by a car maker or one of their suppliers, nor have I ever been."

    Full disclosure: I have sold a few vehicles, but they have all been my personal cars, and I sold them used to other private parties. I own a few shares of Ford stock, which I inherited. I keep it for sentimental reasons only - Lord knows it has been a lousy investment. I am just a consumer, and I am loyal to no brand. I have owned GMs, Toyotas, Fords, VWs, Mazdas, Isuzus, Nissans, and others. I have no ax to grind with any car maker.

    If you are a salesman (my condolences) or are involved in any financial way with the vehicles you discuss, you have a duty to disclose it. It does not invalidate your opinion, but it does put it into proper perspective. Those who stand to profit or lose due to auto sales should "man up" and admit it.

    drfill and others - are you man enough to take The Pledge? If not, I am going to rag you on every post you make that expresses a strong advocacy one way or another. Your refusal to take The Pledge will say volumes about you, and others will form their opinions based on that. Fair enuf?

    All you have to do to take The Pledge is post "I take The Pledge". You don't have to repeat the whole thing. Simple, and fast. Then we can move on.

    Oh, and one more thing. There will be no discussing what the definition of "is", is, or any foolishness like that. You either take it and mean it, or you don't, and accept the consequences of your personal decision.

This discussion has been closed.