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Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?



  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, not so hot after all.

    I believe the hot crossovers sold around 120-150k per year or so. Maybe 70% of that pace in today's market.

    In that regard the Venza is all but invisible.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    8800? That's it? Wow, from the numbers I see here in MA, you'd think it was doing better than that. For every new HL, i see a new Venza. Must be different elsewhere...
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,040
    I sort of look at it as a jacked-up Camry station wagon. But, isn't that essentially what the Highlander is? And the RAV-4 really isn't a tiny little cute-ute anymore, so it just seems to me all these models are beginning to gravitate to a mean.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    In person they're not nearly as tall or as high up as a RAV4 or Highlander.

    It's basically a big Camry wagon, with a luxurious twist. The interior is much nicer than the RAV4, IMO.

    That's why I think it could steal a few RX sales.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Woops !!!

    That was numbers from TOYOTA CANADA on the 8,800 a year.


    4,745 in May, with the 2009 total at 15,942 so far

    My bad..........:)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587

    And we all fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

    Still, 32k per year, at this rate, is still very much an also ran.

    Heck, the old Forester sold at about 48k/year and it was considered an also ran. The new one is doing a lot better, as is the RAV4. And the funny thing is those aren't even the crossover leaders - the CR-V is.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    But isn't the Venza in short supply at the moment? Also, 4 cylinders are just hitting the lots as I recall. They may be in really short supply in areas like the midwest. I'm sure it's just a niche model for Toyota, but still they seem to be pretty popular around here.

    I also stand by my original point. I think the Venza is a breakout model for Toyota, style-wise. It's got some prescence to it and the interior is pretty classy IMO, not as cost cut feeling as cars like the Camry. Yeah, I guess it is sorta Ford Edge ripoff or maybe Murano ripoff, but there are some pretty neat curves on it that make it look less vanilla than other Toyota cars.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I've seen more than a few also, but there is a Toyota dealer about 2 miles from my home.

    Toyota usually plays it safe so I agree, the Venza does push the envelope for them a bit.

    I have a Sienna and I've looked at the Venza and RAV4. The RAV4's interior feels cheaper than my Sienna, but the Venza seems nicer. Of course it costs a bunch more, way more than a Sienna with the same equipment.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,294
    If Toyota really wanted to push the envelope, they'd bring back the Supra.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, they're working on an affordable sport car based on a Subaru platform, one that will have AWD and a target price starting under $20k.

    More like a modern, RWD Celica, than a Supra, but I'm looking forward to it.

    Hopefully the designers that did the Venza will work on that project. Rumors say a convertible may come, too, though that was before the crisis hit. We'll see.

    Subaru will hopefully offer an AWD version.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Latest artist renditions (R&T this month) look nice, and 200 hp/140 lb-ft from the Subaru JDM 2.0 sounds good too. But I bet Toyota drops it, you watch. Hopefully Subaru will bring it to fruition.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Posts: 52,572
    "Toyota's operating income from financing new vehicles - as well as gains the financing unit made via loan spreads and used-vehicle residual values - was nearly double the profit it made from actually selling new vehicles."

    Toyota Makes More Financing Vehicles Than Selling Them (AutoObserver)
  • 2011 Toyota Prius is EPA fuel economy leader for one more year

    The United States Environmental Protection Agency and Department of Energy have released the latest Fuel Economy Guide, listing the most fuel-efficient vehicles available in the States. Once again, the Toyota Prius tops this chart, besting the competition with its EPA ratings of 51/48 miles per gallon city/highway.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,109
    It gets good mileage. But it is still Ugly. Kind of like riding a Moped. OK as long as your friends don't see you.... :blush:
  • berriberri Posts: 7,724
    A lot of Prius drivers seem to smugly enjoy poking around on Interstates and backing up traffic...arrogant green weenies.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Criticize all you want, fact is making the Prius look distinctive is one of the main reasons it totally POWNED the Civic hybrid.

    Sure, it looks like a aeroblob, but buyers like that about it.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    Getting back to the main topic topic, I think Toyota has little choice but to go on the offensive, as other brands have caught up on quality, reliability and fuel economy, or are at least reducing Toyota's advantage. These are the primary attributes that made Toyota #1 in the world. It's been about average to less-than-average in the styling and fun-to-drive categories, respectively.

    Stay the same, and you eventually fall behind. Toyota needs to adopt new attributes to gain or even maintain worldwide market share in the future. It's CEO has been talking recently about designing Toyotas to be more fun-to-drive. Good move, in my opinion, although that's probably more important to many participants in Edmunds forums than it is to the average motorist.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Stay the same, and you eventually fall behind

    So true...

    Hyundai caught everyone asleep at the wheel. Most brands reserve direct injection for their luxury brands and high-end models, and here they show up with 200hp and 35mpg in their base mid-size sedan.

    It was a wake-up call to the whole segment.

    Toyota has no choice but to respond. Their bread-and-butter Camry puts out a formerly competitive 169-179hp/32-33mpg. Today, that's 2nd fiddle.

    Trouble is, Toyota and Honda have been leap-frogging each other by taking baby steps, and here comes Hyundai out of nowhere and blows them both away.

    You can bet they are busy planning product responses now.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    So true.

    It'll be really interesting to see what Toyota and Honda do with their next generation Camry and Accord. And what about the next generation Malibu, Fusion and Fiat-inspired Chrysler/Dodge, just to name a few more models that will have to scramble to compete with the Sonata?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    One thing I've always felt is that having a luxury brand slotted above your mainstream brand is a handicap to the lesser brand.

    For example, when Ford had Volvo and Jaguar, a Lincoln always had to be a little less than a Jag. Lincoln often got a less powerful engine, fewer niceties, etc. So Lincoln became "Jaguar Light".

    Cadillac didn't have that handicap, it could be all it wanted to be. Cadillac whopped Lincoln, badly. Ford is now trying to reinvent Lincoln, since it sold Jaguar and Volvo.

    Same applies to Toyota. If Lexus has to be nicer, that limits how good a Toyota can be. Same for Honda with Acura on top. And Infiniti over Nissan. None of the lesser brands can match their big brother else they will cannibalize them.

    Hyundai does not have that handicap. They ARE the premium brand above Kia. So Hyundai can go all out. DI for all, even at shockingly low price points.

    The other mainstream brands got caught sleeping at the wheel.

    Even now, their response must be calculated. The Accord cannot step on the toes of the TL. The Camry cannot cannibalize the ES. They can only do so much.

    It'll be interesting to see how things develop.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    You make a valid point, but then you say that Hyundai is above Kia, which seems to dilute your message. I'm really not clear on Kia's positioning in the marketplace. What does the Kia brand stand for, and how does it differ from Hyundai?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    What I've heard is that Hyundai will try to be the more upscale brand, while Kia strives for sportiness. I'm not sure I believe the latter, but the former is arguably true (Genesis, Equus).

    Interestingly, Kia made the 200hp engine standard on the Optima, while the base Soanta gets 198hp. Not a big difference, but it shows that they are not letting Hyundai limit what Kia can be.

    On the surface it would seem Hyundai is "above" Kia, but not really, they are striving for different a character for each brand.

    VW did the same thing - Audi went Sporty, VW tried to go upscale. The Phaeton and A8 coexist even today in Europe (and it will likely come back to the USA).

    I'm not sure it has worked that well, so let's see if Hyundai can manage.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    The U.S. market VW/Audi positioning strategy makes sense, and is working, but the Hyundai/Kia strategy is still unclear to me. There's not enough differentiation between Hyundai and Kia, in my opinion.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    VW sort of backed out of that strategy, though.

    Look at the cheapened Jetta, for instance. They're going after volume now.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    Going after volume is consistent with the VW brand's objectives. While Europeans are willing to pay more for independent rear suspensions and quality plastics in the interior, Americans value size and relatively low price. VW didn't cheapen the European Jetta, just the American one.

    Now, it would be surprising if they cheapen Audi, since that's VW's upscale brand, and Americans shopping in that category are willing to pay more for luxury and quality components.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,918
    Isn't VW/Audi's goal to be the No.1 car company in the world based on sales? After watching GM and Toyota fall from grace, why would anyone want this title. it seems something has to suffer to attain this goal.

    The auto market in the US is already tight. I'm not sure a "cheapened" Jetta is the right idea.
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