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Comments
It looks to me like you want the RL to be something that it is not. Move on.
Ceric - Sorry, it was Prattster who mentioned the 20" wheels.
"I'd imagine that RL to LS430 would be more like Accord to Camry." - Robertsmx
Actually, I think it's more like TSX vs Avalon.
Couldn't disagree.
CR picked 330 last year. What kind of enthusiast mags? C&D had posted better 700ft skidpad for 325 than M3, if you ask me makes no sense.
What about vehicle weight. With AWD must be somewhere in the vicinity of 3,800 pounds. And what will that do to mileage?
The CR vs. C&D argument is also to be expected. The enthusiast mags only care about one thing, track results. They dont care what the inside looks like, or the available features, or reliability, or any kind of value. The fact that the '04 LS actually WON a C&D comparo was almost unbelievable. I've driven the G35 and its a great car, but I just couldnt live with all that plastic staring me in the face. The cup holder looks like it would break after about a week.
The Lexus LS has won comparos at Car and Driver before. It is not unusual for the LS to win with them.
M
Can't argue that the CTS Achilles' Heels ("Unigue" Exterior Styling, downright strange interior styling) outweigh the TL's chronic flaw (Torque Steer). The TL's interior alone will sell many units!
I still think the STS looks like the DTS!
DrFill
In addition to my LS400 and Avalon, I also own a 2003 Honda Odyssey, by the way.
So how come you're not "acuraguy" instead of "lexusguy"?
I always thought that people buy Acura just because it's cheaper than Lexus.
But somehow I now realize that the reason people buy Acura is because they like the way the Acura vehicle feels. Nobody is wrong, just personal preferences. Gotta respect people for their own individualism.
I did personally THINK the 04 RL had the BEST looking front Dash of any sedans out there. The NAV screen was a little dim, but not too bad. But I wish they'd kept that great looking front dash of the 04 RL.
One interesting fact I read was that the 05 RL has genuine real woodtrim instead of the usual synthetic woodtrim. No big deal, but interesting.
but after looking at the pics posted on acura's website, i think the design grew on me a bit more.
maybe i got it wrong, but some of the pictures make me wonder:
1. the rear tail lights are a mix of LED & non-LED?
2. the brakes that you see through the wheel design appear large, how much smaller can the wheels get?
3. the big fat joystick nose in the console, is Acura going to provide us with their version of BMW's iDrive? (for the record, I love iDrive and think people are just nuts not to appreciate the fact that they have little control left over their own lives and technology, good and bad now completely drives our lives)... an Acura version might be gooood considering even the earliest of Acura's Nav systems were legions ahead others in their usability functionality.
4. Will it make me reconsider my 530i buy coming up this year end? likely.... I'm fairly dissapointed by the quality of a fairly new bmw in the family right now. it is the best car to drive, but finally, when you take the car out of the garage and it creaks and its got only 12K miles and less than one year life.. ya know that's not good.... and despite the controversial new shapes, i honestly like about 90% of the bangalized new bmw's... but again, back to acura, i think, the design is a tad too conservative, but its growing on me... lets see what I see tomorrow in person
Key point: Note that above the taillight there appears to be a flattened section of sheetmetal, forming a little ridge above the taillight and also on the trailing edge of the trunk. I like it. In all the other pics, the sheetmetal blends smoothly into the taillights (no ridge).
Do you think it's posible Acura still has some styling changes they are considering? There are pics that are blanked out on the site, which must provide clues about other features. This one might have slipped through.
The STS' interior looks low rent? Compared to what? Also, its important to remember that unlike Acura, Cadillac has a common design theme amongst its vehicles, that could be one reason the STS looks like the SRX. Acura and Lexus do something different with each model.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0404/09/autos-115975.htm
http://gallery.dealerrater.com/gallery/shows.asp?galleryId=5&- - - manu=Acura&Submit1=Search
I think this will be one of those cars that has to be seen in person to get a real feel for if you like it or not. I just wish I could find pics of a light interior color -- I don't like black interiors at all.
"but the CTS is RWD which will always give it an advantage in the magazines, plus its more distinctive looking and I think Cadillac's brand image is one step above Acura, and infiniti for that matter."
Not always an advantage. Car & Driver didn't test the CTS because it was priced above the TL. Also, Cadillac's brand image isn't ahead of Infiniti. Have you looked lately? You're overexaggerating once again.
"How could anyone who admires Acura's styling call the new STS a bore?"
People have different tastes, duh!
"The STS' interior looks low rent? Compared to what? Also, its important to remember that unlike Acura, Cadillac has a common design theme amongst its vehicles, that could be one reason the STS looks like the SRX. Acura and Lexus do something different with each model."
The STS' interior isn't low rent, just uninspired. And who cars that Acura and Lexus do something different with each model? They still sell don't they!?! Again, there goes your biased opinion against imports.
Let's just keep it that way and try not to take things personally.
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http://autoshow.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/101518/page011- - .html?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..leftnav.12.*#
Please fix that Edmunds!
Rctennis - I think the current design trend started with the MDX quite a while back. For whatever reasons, they skipped the RSX (possibly because it's sold in so many other markets). Then the look returned with the TSX and TL.
I appreciate the fact that they toned it down a little bit for the RL, but were able to keep many of the same lines and shapes. It's not a perfect car. But at least it doesn't scream, "Hey, look at me! I'm supposed to be sporty. Yoo hoo, over here!" Instead, it's an athlete wearing a business suit.
RL looks much better than it is on the pictures, there are a lot of lines you can't see on the pictures. Car look elegant and at the same time sporty. When I saw first pictures I thought it was just ok but nothing special, now I think the car looks great.
On the other hand 2006 M45 did not look as good, but still very nice looking car, interior though was not impressive( once again).
Also liked new A6, very elegant looking car, I also think it looks better than pictures.
New GS was bland, nothing special. Lexus rep. said they will make AWD for V6.
I my opinion E class is the best looking car in and out, I'm not big fan of MB.
And last BMW 5, I did not like it. Saw many on the street before, exterior is not impressive, kind of ugly for me, but nothing compare to interior of the car. You think G35 has cheap interior, think again, I think 5 beats all in ugly and cheap interiors. I was very desapointed because thinking of buying on when my leas is over.
He also said that SH-AWD is standard. I am just wondering if the new RL would offer manual like TL does? Anyone?
The new Infiniti M35-AWD (based at $41K+) can be priced up to $51K fully loaded. M45 is based at $54K. At Infiniti.com site you can test-build one.
However, we know that that those prices are marketing gimmick for surveying. It is not final. Every time you check in, it may be different.
I don't know about Acura selling a car for 50K. They should have priced at 45K noyt at 50K.
They wouldn't let us see the interior, but the pictures on the Acura website give a pretty good idea of what it will look like.
The Acura representative said the SH-AWD will be standard and she has been assured the price will be under $50k.
The bottom line - I drove to my dealer upon my return from NYC and put a deposit on the 2005 RL. Subject to a test drive, of course, but I fully anticipate driving one by October.
In any case, it might just be that Honda isn't big enough to develop a V8 and a new rwd platform. Refusing to go for big displacement and rwd has led them to do pretty amazing things in the past, and maybe they're happier without the customers who think they need a V8.
1487, I called the STS a bore because it is one. I got up close to one today at the NYAS, it looks like the new Chrysler 300 sedan. Boxy, and boring. Hertz renta-car here we come! The TL may be FWD, but Edmunds was able to shoot through a 600ft slalom course at 68mph!! I'd like to see a supposedly superior RWD CTS even try that. The TL will also stomp the amazing RWD CTS on acceleration, torque steer or not. The STS interior looks low-rent compared to every other product besides Cadillac. Even Lincoln, as much as I dislike them, have better interior designs in their new cars than the STS. I even sat in the $75K XLR, and the interior in that was a piece of cheese too. I smell $5000 incentives, and crap residual. I dont recall Cadillac's brand image ever being better than Acura's. Cadillac might sell more cars, but you just have to look at the used listings to see which ones are considered "desirable." Infinti 2 years ago maybe, but once the FX45 hit, it was all over.
Andy71, why are there so many like you, asking the EXACT same question over and over? NO V8!?!?! WHAT!!??! Take a look at some sales figures before you start screaming for blood. The RL is not intended to fight the LS430. Acura KNOWS they cannot win that. Its poised to go up against the GS430, and the Infiniti M45. The V6 GS300 outsells the V8 GS430 at least 5\1. Most people dont get the V8. Also, have you seen the actual power output for Honda's new 3.5L? 300hp. A quick history lesson. The 540i made 282hp. The E430 made 275. They were both V8s. Wise up.
I actually got to see the RL up close and personal today, and to be honest, I was a bit underwhelmed. I like the front of the car a lot, its got a nice classy but agressive look to it, but the back just didnt do it for me. It just reminds me way to much of an old 2.3CL. The new GS and M45 I absolutely loved, simply gorgeous. If Acura can fix that back end a little with the final car, I'll definitely consider, otherwise, pass.
When people like Andy talk about V8, it is about torque, not hp. In BMW's defense, the old V8 generates 282hp/310ft-lb, the newer version generates 290hp/324ft-lb. Compared that to the new RL's 300hp/260ft-lb(estimated). A flat torque curve gets you going between 1500-6000rpm anytime (85+% of peak torque). A high hp low torque vehicle needs a stick shift to control rpm precisely and instantaneously. Hopefully, the new RL's F1-style shift is great enough because there would be no manual transmission, at least in the beginning.
That said, I really like the new RL for its great design in many aspects and reliability as well. I have been burnt by my Bimmer many times (more than 15 problems in 6 years). I am fed up. MB and Audi are even worse in that.
Finally, no offense, but I think the M45 has a major ugly back-end. Especially the white patches near tail lights (are those backup lights?). The front is OK. Each person has one's own taste. I really like the G35 coupe, though. Almost bought one.
The CTS may not suit your taste, but the car is selling very well and I would imagine it is close to the TL in terms of sales, and that is with a higher price. The TL doesn't really have any glaring faults except for torque steer, but that doesnt mean the CTS isn't a good buy. It's distinctive, fast, roomy and cheaper than the German competition.
If you think Acura's brand image is as high as Cadillac, or any of the Germans you need to think again. First of all, Acura has never really competed in the $40K+ range in any way. Look at how many vehicles Cadillac sells than cost over $40K and than compare than to Acura. Even cadillac's cheapest model cost more than Acuras two most popular car models and don't dare say all of Caddy's sales are due to incentives. That is crap anyway you cut it. Acura's are luxury vehicles, but in terms of price and feature content they are not on the same level as Cadillac. Essentially you cant get most things available on Acuras on an Accords that cost less money.
Infiniti? are you serious? They have two successful products, the rest of their lineup is lacking. The new truck looks ridiculous as well. On top of that the interior of the best seller, the G35, is worse than the CTS.
rctennis,
The STS' interior is uninspired? compared to what? I don't think its any less inspired than a Lexus or Acura interior. Those two marues make nice interiors, but no one has ever called them groundbreaking or inspiring. Those are terms usually reserved for Audi.
The RL is a nice car, and it looks much better than its predecessor, but dont think that people are going to abandon the V8 powered competition jsut to gain 2mpg in fuel economy. The RL will be bargain when compared to the 5 and E, but no so much so when compared to the larger STS and equally sized, but V8 powered GS430 which will be competitively priced.
As far as Acura's cars using the same design theme there is nothing wrong with it the Germans having been doing it for years. I don't see nothing wrong with Caddy doing it either.
Finally, to compare the present RL with any competetion is ridiculous. Honda was busy with other things. The Current STS has been in the same since 1998 and the current RL has been in its present form since 1996. Lets see when the new versions of those cars come out.
Cadillac obviously sells lots of cars, but let's face it, outside the US, it is a non-player. The STS bombed in Europe. Don't even get me started on the Cimarron, ElDorado, Catera, and Escalade. But, having said that, nice to see that Cadillac is back and one of the very few bright spots for GM. But I dislike the origami-styling of the CTS. I think the blocky Chrysler 300 is also very ugly. But to each their own.
The RL will do very well, since it will offer comparable luxury, performance, state-of-art AWD, safety, and high quality for $10K to $20K less than other "luxury" brands. It will be a successful "tweener" car. It will come loaded, with few options. Acura has chosen not to play directly against the V8 luxocruisers like the LS430. But it knows that it can conquer buyers who are currently driving Audi's, Saabs, BMW, Mercedes, Volvos, domestics, mid-line Lexi and Infiniti cars. It will also draw some Honda-philes who are ready to step up from a TL, TSX, or even top-end Honda/Toyota brand. Plenty of SUV-owners fed up with their $40K barges that get 10MPG.
The RL will kick [non-permissible content removed] in 2005, though its numbers will continue to be relatively modest. But that's all Honda needs to do. It's still a tiny player in the luxury field, but highly profitable and still setting sales records.
No way the RL will offer a manual transmission. I wish, but it won't happen.
Now--cstiles, you are correct about RL playing to a certain niche. I'm a Saab 9-5er at present, and ready for something higher tech in the $35-45K range--therefore, TL or RL. Each has its advantages and each looks to be THE price-performer in its category.
I can't fathom paying $10-20K more for a car--even a really nice one--though I could afford it. Fuel economy is important to me, so I actually prefer V6 over V8. RL is at the upper end of my self-imposed price range. With all the goodies that come standard on the new Acuras, I don't think I'd be missing much by eliminating some of the others mentioned here.
Believe it or not, I mean that as a compliment. I think Acura took the over-the-top Beemer's rear and really refined it into something very tasteful.
Bob
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Just for the record I love Cadillac's V8:)
I'm not surprised Acura did not come up with V8, why would they? About 85% of vehicles available in both V6 and V8 actually being sold with V6. So why would Acura bother spending money on something very few people buy, if they can spend it on revolutionary AWD and nice quality interior. Oh yes, RL was not build to compete with full size luxury vehicles like LS, S, A8 and 745 ( no reason to mention Q45), but with mid size such A6, GS, E, 5 and new M. Non of the mentioned above mid size vehicles sells well with V8(M45 being the best example). Acura has one of the most powerful with 300HP and Torque equal 282 not 260 as somebody mentioned, pretty good engine in my book. I hope they will make RL with 6MT.
Are you saying the new RL engine would generate 282ft-lb of torque?
This I got to see! Where is your source, may I ask?
Current BMW M3's 3.25L makes 262ft-lb with 11.5:1 compression ratio. By projection (assuming this engine reaches the same refinement as the M3 engine), 262X1.077 = 282ft-lb!!!
TL's 3.2 only make 238ft-lb with 11:1 ratio.
Remind you that M3 had 200+ engine blowup for 2001-2002 years models. Let us hope Honda can do better to avoid that.
300hp/282ft-lb!!! that is in the territory of most 4L V8!!!
If Cadillac doesnt need all those incentives to move products.. then why are there so many incentives? Does GM like giving away free money? Lexus and Acura sell their cars at, or even sometimes above msrp.
"Even cadillac's cheapest model cost more than Acuras two most popular car models. Acura's are luxury vehicles, but in terms of price and feature content they are not on the same level as Cadillac." Ok those two statements dont even make sense. If the TL easily beats the CTS on feature content (which it does) and according to you costs less than the CTS, how are they not on the same level? Seems to me like they are on a level above.
If you think Cadillac's interiors are as inspired as Lexus, obviously you've never driven an SC430. I'm glad your happy with your cash back rebates, recalls, bad quality and depreciation, but dont try to convince us that Cadillac is better than Lexus and Acura. Wrong forum.
Final note: VQ35 only has 10.3:1 compression ratio. So, I guess it is possible. But, Honda has to work with SOHC (as speculated), not DOHC.
"I understand you trying to protect all American automakers, but what you say is nonsense. Price does not make car luxury, if Cadillac vehicles cost more than Acura it doe's not make it more luxury. Cadillac would love to lover the price but they can't during to high cost of production. If you ask me brand can not be considered luxury with interior quality no better than Hyundai
Just for the record I love Cadillac's V8:)"
What does make a luxury car a luxury car then??? Since when has Cadillac's quality been no better than Hyundai? These exaggerations are preposterous Don't people consider a BMW 3 without leather, CD player, sunroof, fog lamps, climate control, etc a luxury car? Despite the fact the numerous "non luxury" cars offer way more for less, they aren't considered luxury cars. You people kill me with these biases towards Cadillac. You read a couple magazine articles and start going overboard. Last time I checked everyone's quality but Lexus, Infiniti and Acura was a lot less than you would expect for the price. Yet only Cadillac gets singled out.