Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Anyone who waited a year for something as average as an MDX must be a Honda fanatic. There were plenty of other oddly styled luxury utes available at the time, namely the RX300. The MDX is hardly something I'd call an aspirational vehicle. Spare me.
who says the 05 RL is competing against V8 luxury cars anyway. in terms of price and performance the 05 RL seems to be right there with high end V6 luxury cars from BMW and MB.
i just don't understand the logic that if a car has a v8 it's automatically at a higher echelon then a car like the 05 RL. would the olds aurora be considered a superior car to the 05 RL? probably so to the GM faithful.
there are many people out there who would prefer to have a BMW/MB V6 luxury car over ANY cadillac. maybe the 05 RL will be in that vain. just a matter of personal preferences.
There ARE alternatives to 8 cylinders. For one, forced induction. I seriously doubt Honda would actually do that, they seem to be as aversed to resorting to turbo or supercharging as BMW is, but if they did decide to turbo the 3.5L, the German uber sedans with their $80K price tags could find themselves in uncomfortable company with a far eastern. The other is hybrid power, which is a definite possibility. Take a look at the RX"400"h. Lexus used the same 400 label for their old 4.0L V8. The new RX is not V8 powered, but with a combined six and electric, it can make 270hp and 35mpg. That sounds like something Honda would be willing to try. Remember the DualNote concept?
At the time of its introduction, there were not a ton of alternatives to the MDX. There was no FX45, or SRX, or Toureg, or XC90. The X5 was around, but it was $15,000 more than the MDX. The ML320 is a ladder frame, and not in the same catergory, which basically leaves the RX300, which only has 5 seats, and basically zero off road capability. At $35K and change coming fully equiped out of the box, the MDX was a smash hit.
During an interview with RL product planner, Will Walton, when asked about whether Acura is working on a model above RL, he said (to the effect).."I am not at the liberty to discuss that, but our engineers are working on a number of things. This is an exciting time for Acura ...."
My guess is that the answer is YES, and the power train would be a combination of 3.5L V6, SH-AWD, IMAs and VCM.
Thanks
ksso
I think the RL is no longer competing with the LS430, although the Acura sales people in OKC are wishing it.
I believe the RL is now competing with the Lexus GS.
So basically, Acura no longer has a true luxury flagship sedan to compete with the other two Japanese companies--Lexus (LS430) and Infiniti (Q45).
But actually, the RL never really competed very well with Lexus and Infiniti since Acura never had a V8 engine.
I wouldn't mind a V6 as long as it was quiet, smooth, and luxurious like the LS430.
Oh, well.
I thought everyone here would rather take a Lexus or Acura over a Caddy or whatever American brand name vehicle on the market.
If I spend $50K on a vehicle, I want it to be the best and most reliable for my hard earned money, regardless of make and where is it built.
UNFORTUNATELY, Japanese makes are just better and more reliable.
So when I buy my $50K vehicle, I make sure it says 100% Japanese parts and assembly.
I heard that people in Japan care about the products they make and want the whole world to know that Japanese makes are the best now and forever.
I know that a lot of people in America just care about how much money they make this year, and maybe next year.
Well... Yes and no. I agree that the S2K and 350Z are designed with very different philosophies. However the two cars are comparable in terms of market shopping. There have been plenty of magazine comparisons with the two.
As for the other weight comparisons, I'd compare the Max with the TL, not the G35. Nissan still comes out on top, but not by as wide a margin as you've suggested. With the Pilot vs Murano, you've got two very different vehicles. It's like the S2K vs 350Z comparison. In this case, the Pilot is the one based on the bigger design (with 3 rows of seats and 90 cu.ft. of cargo).
The Accord/Altima comparison makes sense and, in general, I agree that the Nissans probably do have an edge in weight. But it's not as great as your earlier post suggested.
"RL will make extensive use of aluminum! As though M can't make use of same!" - Mariner
Again, the extensive use of aluminum is not something that is typical of Honda. Your theory is that the "typical" Honda weighs more than the "typical" Nissan. My point is that this RL is not "typical".
Which brings me to a question. Is there any reason to believe that the new M cars make extensive use of aluminum or other weight saving materials? Or is that just a "what if" sort of thing?
I think when the smoke clears, the RL will still fall between the V6 and V8 models in this class. Yet, with a price in the high 40K range, it will be closer to the V6s in price.
Depends on who you ask. Some will say extra torque for launching quickly with little to no effort.
Some will say that V8 engines are smoother and more refined.
Others will point to simple bragging rights.
Frankly, I doubt Acura will ever sink so low as to offer a big block V8. As others have suggested before, it's more likely they'll go hybrid for increased smoothness, better mileage, better emissions, and the more hi-tech image.
It didn’t have to. And I wish Acura didn’t even think along the lines that they appeared to with the launch of RL replacing the Legend. That said, I can bet nobody wants to compete “well” with Infiniti despite of it having one of the most powerful V8 engines. Last month, even the 8 year old, only 225 HP V6 powered RL handily outsold Q45 and M45 (combined). And at this point, RL is not considered a sales success with the current generation. This is a classic example of V8 NOT NEEDED theory.
That said, with as much power as RL is going to have, smart buyers will think twice before spending thousands more just to get a V8, and most don’t do it anyway (a reason, GS430 sales are nominal, compared to GS300, the six cylinder GS carrying the chunk of sales. Same for BMW 5-series, and E-Class).
I think it's a classic example of V8 NOT THE ONLY CRITERION.
The Q and M failed for other reasons. There's more to a car than just the engine.
I knew it was coming, but I sure didn’t expect that your one-sentence mention of the ’05 Acura RL prototype (Bright Lights, Big City in the April 12 issue) would immediately renew your criticism of the company’s decision to shun a V-8 engine. They have stayed loyal to a vision of designing and building vehicles that incorporate leading-edge technology and ultra-reliable quality. It appears that the engineers who gave this prototype life were more interested in bringing to market a revolutionary AWD coupled to a 300-hp engine than simply adding a couple more holes in an engine block to feed some folks’ egos.
Other than a bunch of crazies who think they can and professional drivers who can, no one drives a 300-hp (or more) car anywhere near the auto’s designed upper limits. The “need” for a V-8 is all about the addictions of ego and status. I applaud Acura for resisting auto magazine pundits’ cries over the past few years to “super size it!” Those in charge at Acura are either too arrogant and/or stupid to listen, or too intelligent. I think it may be the latter.
After you finish with the ‘05 RL on the track and skidpad, I’ll anticipate again being assaulted by your “a flagship has got to have a V-8” mantra. However, when you feel that urge to melt some tires, you can leave the real world and play with something from the AutoWeek garage with 400, 500, or maybe 600-hp in the form of a V-8, V-10, V-12, or maybe a twin-turbocharged flat-6.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
the new rl does quite nicely in freshening and stabilizing an appearance. it will not knock your socks off but it will last. 8 years from now people will still compliment the looks of the rl much as they do today with my '96. acura has remade this car precisely in the areas I would have looked to change:
-5 sp manumatic
-awd - using the mdx experience and extending to a design aimed for the sedan
- more powerful yet efficient engine
- keeping one of the best interiors intact
- improving handling characteristics without losing the comfort and quiet ride
- technology/electronics updates
if I were in the market for a new car today I would definitely look at both the new tl and rl for the same reasons I chose the rl over the 5 and e series on the last round. total cost of ownership. the long term budgetary requirements of maintenance, insurance and all the other variables of buying, keeping then selling a car directed me to the acura. it would likely bring me back again. my hardest decision would now be between the acura's, not their competitors.
my '96 is not flawless yet even today I still love driving it and no one minds riding in it either. also, my '96 has the ultimate luxury car feature -- it's paid for. that's a luxury I enjoy the most.
Lexusguy, I wouldn't go as far as bashing "bank vault feeling" due to poor reliability. They are two different things entirely. My BMW '98 540iA still feel like bank vault when closing any doors after 6 years. No vibration or rattling while driving. The paint is still shining like new. However, I had a entirely new cooling system ... now that is a long story to tell here.
Many buyers veer away from German cars because of rising Euro, in addition to so-so reliability. I would say the former plays a bigger role.
Lexus typically change much higher on maintenance by replacing tear and wear more frequently on customers' expense. Reliability and free loaner do not come free/cheap. A good indicator of reliability is extended warranty! A 4-year warranty on my 540 costs $2450. On LS400, it costs about $1600. Lexus is better on reliability, but it is not bullet proof.
I think once everyone realizes that Acura won't be offering a V8 everything will be fine. I used to harp about the lack of a V8 too, but when you really thing about "Honda" you'll come to realize why they aren't going to do a V8. There isn't a strong enough business case and Honda is too small to spend money on an rwd platform and V8 for a single car. No need for a V8 if you're going to do primarily a fwd-based awd car, 300hp is enough.
M
If we truly were a V8 nation, the Camaro wouldn't have been killed by the plethora of 2L four-cylinder import compacts.
I see the RL as being pretty darn Honda to me: carving out a niche. The company has done a good job in recent years. First there was a raw high performance roadster, then they had a 2-passenger 70mpg hybrid coupe. They also threw in a boxy roomy cheap 4WD Element, and now there's a 300hp AWD sport sedan. Kudos to them. Let Lexus continue chasing Mercedes until the sun sets. Honda is better served by carving out its own niche, and if the Lexus and Mercedes' of the world are uninterested in competing in those niches, well, more buyers for Acura.
I think this car's biggest competition will come from the exceptionally roomy G35x sedan.
I agree with you to the point about G35x. My co-worker has a regular G35. We go out for lunch often in his car. The car is not roomy as you said. It is narrow like most cars designed for Japan and Europe.(width 69" versus 72.6" for RL). Good leg room due to 112" wheelbase.
I think RL's competition from Infiniti is mainly the new M35-AWD. Similarly priced and sized. AWD, and both 3.5L. Comparable in many aspects.
M
A VTEC V8 would certainly be interesting, though Im not so sure it would be all that much different from Toyota's VVTi or BMW's Double Vanos V8s. VTEC was the original, but the other guys have figured it out.
I will likely look at them first when I need to replace the tires on my '00 RL.
I rest my case!!! lol
I think no one doubts Honda's capability in engines unless one is ignorant. In 1995, Mugen-Honda already developed outstanding V8, V10 for Formula-1 racing. Shockingly high rpm and hp. It is just a pity that Honda decided not to commercialize V8 for production. Instead, they chose to refine their V6 to a even higher level. I have no problem with that. I'm not fixated to V8.
Lexusguy,
Statistics show that Lexus have better reliability by a good margin, but not bullet proof. I would rather refocus on the discussion of new RL.
Whoever said the 05's RL interior is comparable to the G35's is wrong. THe G35's interior is cheap. I don't the 05 RL's interior is cheap.
As far as Japanese Built vehicles uhh... this is not 1985 anymore(I think when people look at vehicles now they are judging on facts that are 20 years old.) Most of all the Japanese Cars are built in America nowdays or have been since the late 80's.
Yes, a good number of Japanese nameplates are built in the USA, and a good number of American nameplates are made in Mexico, and China.
I see a point in development of Jet engines, a point in development of ASIMO (humanoid robot), a point in development of electric motors and a point in development of fuel cell powered drive train. These things either help diversify business, or help create a better future.
Honda would have no trouble investing in development of V8 engines, but what would be the point? To put this in perspective, Honda manufactures a flat-6 engine, but only used in couple of motorcycles. Obviously, the company isn’t shy of venturing into something new (although the first Honda Flat-6 appeared in 1975, I believe).
Doing something just for bragging is just plain dumb IMO. Honda’s priority in the late 90s was to create a light truck lineup, so the company did focus more in that direction, and rightfully so, given the market division between light trucks and cars. Now that things have stabilized quite a bit, the focus can be on something else.
I see no need for V8. We can always want RL to have V8, but the ingredients the car really needed seem to have been addressed. It should make an intelligent buyer think twice before tossing extra dollars for the sake of “V8 bragging rights”.
However, I suspect higher reliability ratings would have kept it at the top of the family sized desireability factor for comparison shoppers. As it is, what has been the anchor on the passat sales performance is the issue of maintenance. As I would much rather drive a passat than an accord, I would rather own the accord, v8/v6 notwithstanding.
The Passat has all kinds of problems. The 2.8 engine is not good enough, the Japanese and even GM and Chrysler have much better six cylinders available. The W8 was a nice idea in theory, but 275hp was the best they could do? The 350Z beats that with a six, and the G35 sedan could easily make 280hp+ if Nissan wanted it to. All motion 4WD was another nice idea, but saddled to the underpowered W8 and you have a $40,000+ slug, with bad gas mileage, and VW makes the worst NAV systems in the entire industry. Im not even sure if the Passat offers one at all, considering how old it is. The Japanse are starting to learn how to copy Passat driving feel. The Accord, with some real tires as opposed to the very mediocre all seasons it comes with, drives very nicely. The Mazda 6 is another car thats a hoot to toss around, and both will show their taillights to a Passat 2.8 with ease.
next year VW will correct this problem with the new passat. new jetta next year too, way too long for that car.
We'll see about this new Passat. If VW decides to use their current 3.0L, its still going to be not enough, that engine is barely capable enough to keep the A4 3.0 midpack, which is a smaller and lighter car than the Passat, and I dont think the 3.2 DFI will make it, they have to do something to seperate the Passat from an A6. Of course the Phaeton and A8 compete with each other, so maybe the Passat will become the VW A6.
According to him...
Production begins Sept-Oct.
Dealer training in Oct.
Delivery end of Oct to early Nov.
Most likely there is NO option at all.
Everything is standard. Some dealer-install options remain.
Just FYI.
A similarly featured (pretty much fully loaded) AWD M35 will probably be about $50,000 as well. But I'm thinking that the majority of the people don't opt for the AWD, Navi and some of the "tech" items, which means that the MSRP of the most popularly configured model would be about $44,000.
This is all conjecture of course.
Early November, then about 4 months later, the GS and the M come out. Gonna be a battle.