Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Luxury cruiser people should stay with Lexus and drive on the outer lanes. Leave inner lanes for sporty sedans. Just kidding.
You couldn't tell at the auto show just how big it was inside. Still looked good enough for me to deposit $500, although if it is this small it would be a disappointment. The exterior dimensions put it about equal to an A6 and slightly larger than the E class and 5 series.
I have found that Infiniti.com includes relatively specific pricing estimates of the new M45 trim levels and option packages. You can configure your ideal M45 along with options and get a rather detailed preliminary pricing report. Adding options comparable to the 2005 RL seem to push the M45 AWD above $50k.
From the spec, the interior of RL should be larger than older 5-series. It has about 98 cubic ft inside. RL has more than 100 I believe. Besides, RL's wheelbase is longer than 5-series (108" compared with 110"). I just wish the new RL can be as close to 50/50 weight balanced as my 540iA (52/48). Adding AWD, RL would be awesome in any driving conditions. Personally, I care more about driving dynamics than raw horse power.
No, you are right.
But I do find myself in my LS400 on the left lane going 70mph in a 60mph zone everyday. However, I do realize that 10mph above limit doesn't necessarily qualify for "speeding".
But you are right about sticking to Lexus for pure luxury cruiser.
However, as lexusguy will probably agree with, the new LS430 goes from 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, which is probably A LOT faster than any Acura, except the NSX!
And I think any such comments about how the RL is still a luxury cruiser is a total joke by my standards. The RL is way too loud and harsh-riding compared to the LS430. I mean it's pretty good compared to a $15K Accord, but it's nothing compared to a Lexus in terms of pure luxury cushy cruising.
It is true that the RS6, to name but one, is "nose heavy" -- but this is NOT necessarily the reason to claim that a car is FWD biased. After spending my weekend test driving AWD cars, you can bet that the BMW and Mercedes dealers (when they see us drive up in an Audi) point out that a "true" AWD car will always be torque biased to the rear.
Both of these fine German brands offer that their cars are 38% FWD and 62% RWD and that for Audi AWD was an afterthought. Huh?!? I am certain the "father of quattro" would have a word or two about this declaration.
Generally, the reason (so they claim) for their AWD "superiority" is that they were RWD first and AWD built upon this.
I wonder if the Acura RL will claim AWD and leave it at that or if it will attempt to "prove" that it is NOT a poser by touting an RWD bias even if it is 45% 55%?
The RS6 is an awesome car -- the fact that it is nose heavy, IMHO, more than its FWD/RWD bias contributes to its tendancy to understeer. In an ideal world, I would conclude, the ideal would be 50 - 50 weight bias and perhaps a slight RWD bias, or, as is used in the Audi, a 50 50 drive bias with a Torsen "brain." The electronics the BMW and Merc guys explained, to make the AWD system work seem fine, but also seem to be a not needed complication, especially when one understands how Torsen works. The BMW guy was quick to add "yea but, yea but, Torsen is noisy and not seamless in operation."
The electronics required to shift power on the BMW are probably hunky dunky -- but in no way is the above claim accurate from behind the wheel of a Torsen equipped car.
What system is the Acura using and, what is its F/R weight bias and its F/R power split?
I don't think comparing a $65K LS430 with supposedly $45K vehicle like RL is even proper. I won't even start here. I have ridden in more than 5 Lexus LS from 1995 to 2004. A boat is a boat. Even for an extremely quiet one, or a fast one. Nothing wrong with it. I haven't tried the Ultra package. No comment there. 0-60 is not everything about sporty sedans. It is more about driving dynamics (road holding, weight balancing, unsprung weight, suspension configuration, overhang, turning circle, etc) to me, I care less about straight line performance as long as it is reasonable quick.
As Chris Bangle said (not that I like his designs), "Driving is not about getting from A to B. It is about getting from A to B while having fun doing it." "Fun" does not mean "quick".
Shifting weight from front to rear does not guarantee a shift from understeer to oversteer (most rear heavy cars like NSX, Porsches do not oversteer easily, in fact they understeer until pushed). This is where suspension setup can play a role.
In its compact platform (RSX), Acura uses “reactive link” double wishbone set up, and while it is not as advanced as the 5-link (Watt link) double wishbone set up in the midsize offerings (RL should have it), the purpose is to provide a passive steer. Even my 1998 Accord has it, and despite the car being nose heavy (60-40 split), the car can be made to turn the rear around under throttle while cornering. OTOH, I have tried the same on some RWD cars (Mustang) with near 50-50 split, but they tend to understeer more (with a tendency to snap oversteer, not good).
And how does it matter an AWD is based on a FWD or RWD platform? As long as it works, and works well, who cares! Audi Quattro (and Subaru AWD) may have been designed for implementation in cars that were front drivers, but that does not take away anything from how they actually perform.
By making AWD standard in the RL, Acura has managed to appeal to audience that would be wary of RWD, those that prefer AWD, and those that would have otherwise dismissed it as a front driver. And that’s good! But as I mentioned earlier, Acura went a step further and implemented the system better than anybody anticipated (at least on paper for now).
"By making AWD standard in the RL, Acura has managed to appeal to audience that would be wary of RWD, those that prefer AWD, and those that would have otherwise dismissed it as a front driver. And that’s good! But as I mentioned earlier, Acura went a step further and implemented the system better than anybody anticipated (at least on paper for now)."
By the same token, I now find the Chrysler 300C and the Cadillac STS and the upcoming BMW 5 series also coming in AWD, now are worthy of my shopping list.
The Acura's implementation, as noted -- on paper -- would appear to be a technological leader, too.
By comparing weight distribution, I assume the suspension setup are equally capable no matter they are d-wishbone or multi-link. Granted, weight distribution alone won't cut it. You must agree that given the same suspension setup, I would take 50/50 for neutral steering and sharp turn-in/out. I didn't ignore suspension, just assume they are equal during comparison. Just to clarify.
On a side note, NSX has been well-known on race tracks for being an over-steerer due to its heavy tail of course. Suspension can only compensate so much within its limit. Beyond that pure physics takes over.
Yes Andrew the LS430 is S500 quick, and in the past its sole mission has been a cloud to seperate you from the world and get you where you are going and FAST. However, the '04 car with the 18" wheels and the sport suspension is.. gasp.. FUN to drive.
NSX generally understeers, and it might take turning off the traction control to induce oversteer on power. IMO, though, mid engine/RWD layout is the best bet for responsive steering and fun ride. Optimum for braking (weight shifts front), acceleration (weight shifts to the rear) and of course, low polar moment with the single most heavy item... the engine/transmission right in the middle of the chassis.
To keep this on topic, don't we wish RL was the production version of Acura DNX (Honda Dual Note)? (Dual Note was mid engined sedan, but with AWD using electric motors)
I have test driven the GS300. I guess the RL should be compared to that, although I think the GS is still a lot quieter and more cushioned on the steering wheel.
I don't know. It just cracks me up when those Acura sales people tell me that the the LS 430 is the primary competitor of the RL and how the RL is a luxury cruiser like the LS.
Yeah, I'm not into performance driving. I guess Acura not being a huge company can only afford to please a certain crowd. Lexus/Toyota is a much bigger company so they try to please a wider variety.
It is so exciting.
No, no, no. SH-AWD has the potential to be a huge factor in how well the car performs.
What I was writing about was the lack of a non-AWD model. If Acura produced a FWD version without SH-AWD, then the PR might read, "A great car, but only if you buy it with with SH-AWD." By making it AWD-only, they eliminate any qualifications. The same PR reads, "A great car. Period."
Honda has a gizmo ahead of the rear differential (more or less part of the diffy), which they call an acceleration device. This is what allows the front axle to be driven at a different speed than the rear axle. It also adjusts the power output from a default 70/30 bias to 30/70 based on yaw sensors, steering input, tire slippage, and throttle position.
Another part of the differential (between the rear half-shafts) takes care of directing torque away from the inside wheel and pushing the outside wheel faster. They commplish this using wet multi-plate clutch packs and electromagnetic couplings to pull those clutches together. These eletromagnetic couplings are one of the items that Honda claims is a "world's first" for AWD design.
Proper suspension tuning can help alleviate that problem. Honda's Prelude and Integra Type R both held some serious g's when they needed to. Of course, those were both light-weight cars. The RL is not.
That said, I'm expecting that the SH-AWD in the RL will come pretty close to eliminating the problem with other FWD-biased AWD designs. With the bulk of the power going to the outside rear wheel, this car will push its way around the corners in a way that no other sedan can. On paper, it looks like it'll one-up the Audi design. And it's not like Audi's are all that bad to begin with.
Does any other AWD system currently in market capable of doing the same? How does the split work in different AWD systems (Audi, Subaru, Nissan etc.)
Robertsmx - No other production system is capable of routing torque from side to side "in the same manner".
Vehicle stability systems can force an open differential to send more torque to an outside wheel by braking the inside one, but not like SH-AWD. Think about it. In order for a system like ESP or VSA to send 100% of the rear wheels torque to the outside, it would have to brake the inside wheel at 100%. Might as well throw an anchor out one side.
You said, "NSX generally understeers, and it might take turning off the traction control to induce oversteer on power. IMO, though, mid engine/RWD layout is the best bet for responsive steering and fun ride."
In general, I agree with what you said about NSX. It is the massive oversteer once you go beyond the limit that is scary on the race track. This goes with mid/rear-engine layout. Again, suspension/tires can only reduce oversteer by so much. Let me just quote what Ayrton Senna's opinion on NSX as conclusion...
"He (Ayrton) liked the car's handling but criticised its chassis for lacking steering feel as you wouldn't know the NSX's limits unless you really pushed it which would usually result in massive oversteer due to its mid-engine layout."
Since this is not a NSX board, we should stop this topic. I have been a NSX-fanatic since 1991. Then, I became a BMW-fanatic 6 years ago. Now, I am more interested in new RL mainly due to its SH-AWD. It will be my next ride, if the test-drive goes as expected. BMW and Acura are both great powertrain companies. The transition should be smooth. Not to mention the better reliability that comes with Acura.
the wife has a 2001 v70 t5.
i have shopped the e320awd and the bmw545..the xc90 and the v70r and this car wins.
Every auto mfg has different market and segments or niche that they try to address. Comparing the Toyota concept against Honda's is completely different despite thinking that one company is larger than the other and therefore limits the marketing ability?? are you kidding me?
the difference is quite apparent when you drive the Accord and the Camry. One car is a sport ride and the other car is a soft ride, both cars are relatively speaking close in total sales.
It was comfortable ,had great acceleration,handling etc. I was really dissapointed with the old RL(cheap lexus wannabe)
If the new Rl is anything like the old legends, I will definitely get one.I really hope it lives up to the hype.
"The author of the article says he has been tracking the development of the RL/Legend since a development prototype was tested at the Nürburgring last year. According to the article, an RL/Legend test mule with a prototype SH-AWD system was tested at the 'Ring against a Skyline GT-R. The article states that the RL's lap times consistently bested the GT-R. The author makes the statement that the SH-AWD's performance dynamics are so innovative that he's convinced current systems from Nissan's GT-R, Subaru's Imprezza (WRX), and Mitsubishi's Lancer - leaders in AWD technology, are a step behind. He goes further and suggests that SH-AWD's performance handling dynamics are so ground-breaking that it threatens to surpass BMW's M5 class (hmmm - we shall see). "
Best Motoring had a video of five cars (M3, M5, Accord Euro-R, Legacy, and another car I don’t remember) running a few laps on a track. M5 finished fourth behind the Accord, while the M3 won it. M5 weighs in at 4000 lb (compare to 3000 lb. Accord, 3400 lb. M3). I wonder what it would weigh with the V10.
Besides 300 HP, and the highly praised AWD system in the RL, I really like the rumor that the new version weighs only 3750 lb. with the AWD (the current RL is about 100 lb. heavier, with “only” 225 HP and FWD). That would put a weight to power ratio of 12.5. By comparison, the weight to power ratio of
S2000: 11.8
NSX: 10.9
TL: 13.1
RSX Type-S: 13.8
BTW, based on the article in Best Motoring, the 3.5 liter V6 is rated at: 300 HP @ 6200 rpm, 260 lb.-ft @ 5000 rpm. This combination should propel this luxury sedan with its automatic transmission from 0 to 60 in 6.2 seconds. And if Acura throws in manual transmission (unlikely), 5.5s or better may be possible!
The new RL with 300hp and 3750lb should get there in less than 5.8sec or better. That is my hope, anyway. I would be disappointed if it only does 0-60 in 6.2sec. That is close to G35 number with 260hp.
0-60 in 6.2s for a luxury sedan would be quite good, probably on par with likes of Mercedes E430 and Lexus LS430. And thats shaving off almost 2 seconds from the current RL.
C&D tested the new 325 HP BMW 545i (with 6 speed manual) and obtained a 0-60 run of 5.5s. Automatic should be be at least half a second or more slower than the manual, and that would make it comparable to the RL too.
The new RL with 300hp and 3750lb should get there in less than 5.8sec or better. That is my hope, anyway. I would be disappointed if it only does 0-60 in 6.2sec. That is close to G35 number with 260hp.