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Comments
The RL will have 8% less horsepower, but over 27% less torque than the 545i. Not to mention that BMW uses bigger horses to measure with - as evidenced by the BMW 330i with 225 hp beating almost everything from Japan up to and including 270 hp 3.5 liter challengers.
The RL has essentially the same power to weight ratios as the new TL. I would expect reasonable performance, but not class leading acceleration.
P.S. Lexusguy, I agree that the 184 hp 525i seems a bit underpowered, but its still respectable with a manual transmission. However, ther is nothing, repeat nothing, that I have driven from Lexus that comes within three rungs of a 525i sport on the handling ladder. At last count, I've driven the GS430, SC430, GS300, LS430 and former SC400. You could put 500 hp in a GS500 and I'd take the 525i on a winding country road anyday. "Fun to drive" is not all about stop light dragging in my book. I don't own a BMW, I just think they deserve credit where it's due. And Lexus quality is class leading; it's just that they are incredibly boring to drive.
I will quote weight to power ratio (again).
Acura TL: 13.1 lb/HP (Low 6 seconds with automatic transmission)
Acura RL: 12.5 lb/HP (Low 6 seconds with automatic transmission – logical guess?)
This assumes the rumored, 3750 lb. curb weight for the RL. And TL is already class leading in terms of acceleration, and compares well with the other class leader, G35. Offerings from Audi, BMW, Lexus and Mercedes are slower at the moment.
I would expect RL to be as quick (with better launch characteristics, thanks to AWD) as TL, as long as it doesn’t weigh 3950 lb. or more. TL's best time to 60 is 6.2s with automatic transmission.
Not to mention that BMW uses bigger horses to measure with - as evidenced by the BMW 330i with 225 hp beating almost everything from Japan up to and including 270 hp 3.5 liter challengers.
Let us look at some comparable numbers. Acura TL is about the same size (and weighs as much) as BMW 530i. Both, about 3500 lb. BMW 530i has 225 HP, and with 6-speed manual, Edmunds obtained a 0-60 run in 7.2s. Bigger horses? May be, but they appear tired. That said, with 15.6 lb for each horse, I would have expected a high 6-second run for the 530i (C&D got it done in 6.7s which sounds about right, so I would say, normal horses). And that’s about 0.8s slower than the same for Acura TL with 6-speed manual putting down 270 HP from its 3.2 liter V6.
No one is saying RL can beat 545 in 0-60 here. At least not that I have read. Lap times are more than hard acceleration. Cornering plays a big part in doing it. Sure, I know M5 (even old one) can do better than all, but for $70K-$80 and more... That is in a different class entirely, cost-wise.
Yes the 330i is quick. Its also much smaller than the 270hp TL, or the 260hp G35. Like robert said, those cars are 5 series size, not 3 series. If the IS300 5-speed had a bit more horses (which it will get very soon)it could beat the 330i. Speaking of which I assume you have not driven the IS, as it is just as fun to drive, if not more so, than a 5 series, and when I say that I mean the old 540, as I cant stand the new car.
G35
Base model 3,336 lbs
Leather model 3,369 lbs
Leather 6MT model 3,398 lbs
BMW 330i (manual/auto)
3285 (3362) lbs
TL
Automatic: 3575 lb (without Navigation System)
Manual: 3482 lb (without Navigation System)
M
M
There was also some discussion about the RL on the track not even being a real RL. Rather it was an Inspire with the RL's drivetrain and a heavy disguise. If that's true, who knows if it carried the same weight penalty or rubber as the production RL.
Rumors about handling are very positive, but perhaps too positive. In addition to the comparison with the GT-R, there was rumor floating around that the RL would pull 1.0 g on the skidpad. Yeah, well... We'll see about that. Skepticism aside, I think we can safely assume it will be competitive with the others on a twisty road.
IMHO, the new RL will be competition as a tweener. It'll be priced in comparison with the six cylinder vehicles of the class. It's edge in horsepower may make it an alternative to some of the 8s. Assuming that the handling and luxury content are on par with the class, this RL could do for Acura what the Legend did so many years ago.
Thoughts???
If you are going to get a Audi, get S4 or RS6, both have much better handling than M3 and M5, and you will be happy for a long time as long as the cars do not break down, then it is a "expensive repair nightmare."
I think the '05 A6 looks actually WORSE inside than the new 5 series, which it has clearly liberally borrowed from in terms of layout and design, and I dont think their MMI is all that much better than iDrive. The new A6 also gets its lumpy looking steering wheel directly from the A8, which is clearly not designed for agressive driving with its fat center and tiny spokes and rim.
As if that werent enough already, there are no indications that Audi has improved quality at all in the last few years, there actually seems to be more problems cropping up for the new A4 than the old one. They seem to have taken care of the hundreds of thousands of cars with ignition coil failures, but the fact that they simply ignored an entire shipment of faulty rusted and warped brake rotors and put them on A6s anyway doesnt not inspire much confindence in me to buy an Audi.
Finally, I expect the A6 with its hefty mechnanical AWD system to outweigh the RL by several hundred pounds, and when you factor in Audi's much weaker V6 (DFI or not), I think the RL will take the A6 to school when it comes to handling. Unlike BMW's, Audi cars do not perform better than their HP numbers would suggest. The A4 with the 220hp 3.0L feels like it barely has even that, as the engine strains to make 7.5 second 0-60 runs.
The S4 is a great driver, but its a tiny car, closer in size to the TSX than the RL. The RS6 is also a great driver, but good luck getting one under $80,000, and there wont even be one for the '05 model year. If I was going to drop that kind of cash on a sport sedan, it would be an E55. At least the E will retain its value.
Ultimately, I think the new A6 will find itself seriously outclassed by the Acura.
The RL will offer refined, but not bold styling. Features will include the essentials, but probably not every option under the sun. I expect that fit and finish may be about the same (Acura has recently stepped up to the plate with their interiors).
Performance will depend on how hard you like to drive your cars. Right now, I'd give the edge to the RL, but that remains to be proven. Both cars will probably have first year bugs, but, over the long haul, I expect the RL will stand up better.
And as for feature content or "gizmos" its Acura hands down. SH-AWD, voice activated, touch screen navigation, a specially designed, 5.1 channel audio system with DVD-Audio capability, BlueTooth connectivity, the list goes on and on, and the Audi offers none of it. And what it does offer will all be on multi-thousand dollar "premium" packages, where as the Acura will come with it all.
Bill
I appreciate BMW's driving dynamics, but am very fed up by its poor reliability (don't get me started) and arrogant service. When I look for a Japanese substitute, I need not look further than Acura and Infiniti. The new M35/45 has a look that I don't appreciate, but others do. My heart is set on RL. Too bad, the new M will show up later than RL. I don't think I could hold on for that long (6 months?) for an apple-2-apple comparison before I decide.
There were a lot of nay-sayers of new TL before it comes out. Where are they now? A TL with Navi is so hard to find these days. And, did you ever sit in one lately? It will blow you off. German cars are so far behind in interior department, they don't even care anymore.
When Japanese makers eventually catch up with German driving dynamics and aggressive/beautiful styling (and they will), what are the German marketing people going to do? "German engineering"? My BMW cannot even get the radiator work pass 50K. Sorry, I promise you not to start. My bad..
To be fair, I loved my 540iA for 6 years. It gave me headaches and pleasures from times to times. The car I am looking for is one with BMW driving dynamics and Lexus reliability. I am betting on the new Acura RL.
UVAcarman
Truly,
Steve
Lexusguy, Toyata make good engines than others, but not as good as those from Honda and BMW. IC Engines are not the forte of Toyota.
Ward's 10 best engines of 2004:
1. D/C 5.7 liter HEMI V-8 (335-345hp/370-390ft/lbs of torque)
2. GMs 4.2 liter Inline DOHC 24 valve 6 275hp
3. BMW 3.2 liter M3 inline 6 333hp
4. Honda 3.0 liter 240hp
5. Nissan 3.5 liter DOHC V-6 (240-287hp)
6. Mazda 1.3 liter Rotary engine. (197-238hp)
7. Subaru's 2.5 liter flat 4 with 300hp from the WRX Sti.
8. Audi's 4.2 liter DOHC V-8 (310-330hp)
9. Cumming Diesel in the Dodge RAM heavy duty.
10. Toyota 1.5 liter 4 (Prius)
I rest my case.
Oh, and check that list in three years when the GS350GT is pushing 470hp with a hybrid 4.0L.
By how much HP they claim vs engine size?
By how much Torque they claim vs engine size?
How fast they go from 0-60 vs engine size?
Fuel efficiency?
Loudness of the engine?
Or by how statistically reliable they are?
If reliable is the key, than Lexus has to be number one.
According JD Powers, the LS430 is the most reliable car in the world. However, I don't think they looked at luxury vehicles that cost $300K.
So how can people claim that one engine is better than another when it is not as reliable?
Andrewtran, you brought too many factors into the discussion. Lexus reliability does not equal engine reliability.
It is funny that I feels like I am a troll on a Lexus board.
Any Mercedes-Benz Diesel I6. They go this distance quite often, as do some recent Mercedes-Benz gasoline V8s. One Million miles on a Mercedes-Benz diesel engine is not unheard of.
_________
Guys there are a lot of things that determine a superior engine and it all depends on who you're talking to. Some people look at hp/per liter. Other look at overall output. Some people look for the smoothness. How well does the engine rev? It goes on and on.
There are certain companies that stand out for their engine building prowess depending on what type of engine is being built.
Lexus (4.3L V8), BMW (4.4L V8) are great engines for their luxury and sportier luxury GT cars. All of these engines are regularly praised and the BMW V8 is considered the best luxury car V8 going in most circles, but they are could be considered gutless compared to say Mercedes' 5.4L SC V8 or Ferrari/Maserati's 3.6L V8. It all depends on what you're looking for. Let us not forget the just retired M5's 4.9L V8. A sheer engineering masterpiece.
In the realm of six-cylinders, Honda and BMW are usually seen as leaders. The V6 is Honda's forte and the I6 is BMW's. The 3.2L I6 in the M3 is close to being qualified to be a racing car engine. Honda's NSX, TL V6s (separate designs) are almost just as good in different configurations, impressive considering the V6 in the NSX is something like 15 years old! The new RL's V6 should be a real gem. Mercedes-Benz even has a new 3.5L 268hp V6 that brings a few new tricks to the table. Arguably the Nissan VQ V6 is just as good as the BMW and Honda 6s, but isn't as smooth or refined, but in a car like the G35 Coupe or 350Z this sort of "character" is part of the appeal.
Other than Toyota's V8 in the Lexus, they really aren't known for their engine prowess like BMW or Honda are. This doesn't mean they don't build a good engine, but that isn't where they shine as brightly. BTW, and I6 is used in semis and all type of heavy duty applications, the Supra's I6 isn't the only I6 that can be modified to produce more power. An I6 is inherently strong in its basic construction. The Supra is the only sports car of that time that had an I6 and yes the tuning possibilities are endless, but not unique to the Supra by any means.
There are some upcoming engines that should really be front-page news. The new V10 in the 2006 M5 is going to be monster. This engine, according to everything so far, is based right off the William-BMW F1 car engine design. You can't ask for more than that. I know this group doesn't think much of pushrod V8s, but the 2006 Corvette Z06 is going to have a truly state-of-the-are pushrod V8 and except for its ohv layout it at least promises to be just as sophisticated as any engine mentioned here. Mercedes has some new direct-injection DOHC V8s in the works for 2006 and in AMG trim they are supposed to develop more power than today's supercharged engines, without supercharging or turbocharging. These hybrid engines from Toyota should be interesting too, if they make the power some people have mentioned here.
BMW is working on a cam-less V8 for introduction later in the decade! Saab had an idea (that was shut down by GM) for a variable compression engine. Honda also has something in development along these lines.
M
Hardly. Boring the 5.7 out to 6.0L doesnt make it the most amazing engine ever, and the concept of a "state of the art pushrod" is laughable. If it was, Cadillac wouldnt be using DOHC Northstars. I know what that engine is like, its gruff, unrefined, and likes to dance between 1200 and 1700rpm while idling. Hardly any kind of model for refinement. The 4.3 in my LS stays around 800 at idle, and makes not a sound.
We dont get M-B diesel I6s here in the states. The V8 in my S420 pretty much fell apart at 160K, where as my LS400 was humming along just fine with 165K, when I traded it.
I was expecting that about the pushrod V8 from Chevy, but they are planning more than just increasing the displacement. They're going to apply all the tricks from these DOHC V8s. Not easy to do. Trust me I'm not saying that this V8 is going to re-write the rules or anything and it isn't playing in the luxury car field. Sports car engines are supposed to be more gruff.
You do realize that Toyota has new pushrod V8 for several racing applications right?
Lets not be so hasty to disreguard.
M
M
whereas honda makes just I4s and v6s and BMW makes just I6s and one v8, toyota has v8s, I6, v6, v4, i4.
it's pretty tough to be good at all of those engines types when your competitors are specialzing in and getting real good at just a few types of engines.
i don't know if any toyota engine can be called best in class (although the 4.3 v8 in the GS and LS430 is real nice, very close to BMW's 4.5 v8), but they're up there and there's not a lemon in the bunch.
Now to keep this discussion on topic, RL is (probably) going to have one of the best, most compact and lightest V6 engine for the power it will develop.
ksso
Keep in mind, Honda doesnt just make cars. They also make motorcycle engines, jetski engines, ATV engines, etc. Honda is VERY good at what they do.
Actually, I think it will be interesting to see when, if ever, Lexus and Infiniti (possibly Acura) will be viewed in the same light as the three German luxury brands.
-- Mark
personally, i've never been able to develop a taste for nissan's or infiniti's so i'll act like they don't exist just kidding
ksso