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Acura RL

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Comments

  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >I have to admit though, from what I saw of the new GS, it would be my pick of the two<

    Hey Lexusman:

    Tell us more about the new GS! Exterior, interior, engine, etc. New stuff?

    When it will it reach the market?

    Thanks in advance.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, the GS is all new for '05. A lot of the details are still guess work though, as Lexus, like Acura, closely guards its secrets. Supposedly the next GS is supposed to be the first vehicle in a "new design direction" for Lexus that finally stops liberal copying from M-B. Lexus is supposed to majorly up the sport quotient too. The 4.3L V8 engine is a carry over from the last year, as to whether hp or torque have been bosted at all is unknown.

    I would definitely expect a sport suspension option, standard 17 or 18" wheels and the like on the V8 car. Lexus has long been critqued over the current GS being too bland, and I'm sure they will answer that with the new car. It will also be the first Lexus sedan to offer AWD, though like the M35, it will only be offered on the GS300, with the V8 being RWD. The GS300 is a new 3.0L V6, and the venerable inline is finally being retired. Power for this new six is something like 242hp. The big news (well big rumor) is that a year or two down the line, a GS350GT will be offered, with the "GT" meant to be like a GS"AMG". This rumored car will have a 280-300hp V6 combined with a 150-200hp electric, with total power in the range of 450-500hp. There is also supposed to be an LS500GT, with a hybrid V8 and possibly even more power.

    image
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    Very interesting! Nice photo.

    OK, when it will it reach the market? Any prices floated?

    Thanks again.

    Legendman
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The interior also got a huge update, with electro-luminescent gagues like the rest of the Lexus lineup, and gorgeous stretches of walnut, which I really like as I've always found the current GS to be a little lacking in that department. Prices are totally unknown, but my guess is around what the current cars are selling for. Lexus will definitely keep their tags below the German sixes and eights, so that can at least give you an idea. I'm also not entirely sure when its going to hit, either the end of the year as an '05 along side the RL, or perhaps early in '05 as an '06 with a model year skip.

    image
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Hmmm..Excuse my subjective rant here, but judging from these and other pictures I've seen of the 05/06 GS 430, I'm left uninspired. It lacks originality, especially the interior and the rear quarter panel. I'll give credit to the butt, b-pillar configuration and door handles, which look nice but the front end, and excuse the lack of a better description, simply, sucks!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I absolutely love the front end. It keeps the twin light theme of the outgoing car, but makes it look a lot more fresh and sleek, similar to the E430 - E500 transition. How does the interior lack originality? Its a quantum leap foward over the current car's rather stark (for a Lexus) layout. Also, when I was there, of all the new Japanese midsize sport sedans, the GS, M, and RL, the GS got the biggest crowd by FAR.

    image
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    I test drove an MDX today, and I was especially impressed with the engine. It is amazingly smooth, quiet, and powerful. If the RL V6 is similar, but with 300HP, it will be more than satisfactory. Should give sub-6 second 0-60.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >When RL and M come out, E probably will be the benchmark, not 5.<

    According to a recent Consumer Reports (CR), the quality and reliability of the Mercedes E class was "worse than average". The flagship S class was "much worse than average", so bad that despite CR giving it high marks as the top luxury vehicle for ride, handling and interior comfort, they could not recommend it due to its unreliability.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    CR wont recommend any car that doesnt pass their reliability survey, even if it drives like a formula one racer. I think what mariner meant is that the E will be the benchmark for the Japanese to beat in driving dynamics in the automags that dont focus on reliability.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Exterior is OK for me. I don't love it, I don't hate it. Feel the same way about the RL, but I like the RL looks a little more. Guess I'm partial to the wedge.

    I love the GS interior. Only criticism is, the wood walnut steering wheel looks beautiful, but I'd just prefer thicker leather. Sweaty palms slip on a veneer wood steering wheel.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Goto: http://www.acura-legend.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48198

    For some superb views of the new 05' RL - I could swear the grill on these shots looks substantially larger and more robust - this is a "must see"
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Looks like what I saw at the show. Dont get me wrong, its an attractive car...I just found myself "drawn" to the GS430 and the M45 a bit more. That may change as the RL gears up for production though.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    2005 Future Vehicle Forecast

    Unofficial guide to the automotive future

    By Jeff Bartlett
    Motor Trend

    2005 Acura RL : All new for 2005.

    Standout features will be a 300-hp V-6 and a Super-Handling all-wheel-drive (SH-AWD) system. At its heart is an intelligent rear axle with a planetary gearset that takes the driveshaft speed and increases it by five percent. Then a pair of electromagnetic clutches apportions torque on demand to the rear wheels.

    With the increased input speed, the clutches can route extra torque to the outside rear wheel, which naturally spins faster than the front wheels in a turn. All of this is said to enhance cornering dynamics, and provide rear-drive dynamics with all-wheel-drive sure-footedness.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Legendman,
    I see you subscribe to Google's "News Alert" feature as well...It is, quite frankly, a kick-[non-permissible content removed] feature - I'm sure, soon to be emulated by other search engines.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >Legendman, I see you subscribe to Google's "News Alert" feature as well...It is, quite frankly, a kick-[non-permissible content removed] feature<

    I do, and it is!
  • cericceric Member Posts: 1,092
    As of today, numbers of messages on Edmund.com on these three models to come

    M45/M30 - 137
    GS300/430 - 227
    RL - 965

    Do you think this represents the popularity of the vehicles or else?
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    people seem to be talking mainly about the SH-AWD system rather than the car itself.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, if you think about it, theres more to get excited about with the Acura. The GS and M are largely evolutionary changes. The RL is a radical departure from the current car though, and naturally, that is going to get people talking.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    Just watched a neat Quicktime video on the new RL. I saw it at the MotorTrend NYC Auto Show Website below:

    http://motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_04_newyorkautoshow/

    You'll have to look for the link to the videos. Scroll down and look for a vertically oriented rectangular box on the lower right side - marked "FEATURED VEHICLES", and select the 2005 Acura RL link. You can view in Quicktime or Windows Player. High speed is best -- if you have the broadband. (Note: you'll have to watch a Michelin ad for truck tires before the Acura movie starts)

    What was so neat was that you could see the car driving down a number of roads, taking tight corners, and accelerating. We are afforded many views not seen in the static press pics.

    I have to agree with some of the guys here that the car does look better than I orginally thought.
    Mind you, I still have my nits, but the more I look at it, I see that the car definitely has some class and style. Indeed, it appears to be a "luxury performance sedan" as the video exhorts.

    It's about time! Go Acura!
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    I think there was a point in history when long narrow cars were all the rage. now in 2004 era, while oil prices go up and we get fatter, sqat cars are all the rage.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Honda USA is one of my firm's clients and when we have meetings with them -- none of which contain secret information (darn it) the "buzz" over the past year has gone from "hand wringing" and fussing about the "old" product [the need to refresh] to "chest pounding" -- and a real sense of enthusiasm as if they are saying "you ain't seen nothin' yet!"

    New things are, apparently, in the works and although I do not have any hard information, it appears that this new 2005 RL is just the beginning of some even bigger things as Honda/Acura apparenly came to the conclusion that they needed to play catch up and that rather than just play catch up that they would have to put their engineers and stylists in a place to pull ahead of the competition.

    Apparenly, many of us on this board are noticing -- three car families have and/or are about to really excite me (a died in the wool, nearly blind Audi loyalist): the Acrua RL & SH-AWD TL, the Audi A3 and A6 and the Chrysler 300C AWD. I would probably give an honorable mention to the Cadillac STS, but my GM "personal" advisor has e-mailed me the prices -- and, once again, I only hope the glove box has a stack of small bills in it -- several thousands of dollars worth -- "this" high.

    2005 the year of the car indeed!

    Of course, the diesel "product" in the wings for 2006 and beyond is also quite interesting especially considering the current reasons (blaim) for our price of gasoline seem to have little to do with supply and much to do with our [in the US] ability to refine (the last new refinery built here was over 20 years ago, if you can believe the talking heads, yet in the same time frame we have closed many many refineries). So the era of high priced gasoline has perhaps been born -- the era of clean diesel is in the birth canal to carry the analogy forward, and hybrid and clean diesel cars may be the next big thing, next year (or so).

    Maybe for once, my lease timing is to my advantage, product wise!

    Anyway, go Acura indeed.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Just ran across two superb articles on the dilemma facing Honda. After reading them, I've concluded that the new products from Honda's Acura division is the company's bid to re-establish themselves as performance and sales leaders in their respective categories. The TL and TSX are very successful luxury entry level products - The 05' RL, very possibly, will be their "make it or break it" product. Stakes are extremely high - Honda cannot afford to fail! You know, since they've publicly stated that nothing in it's class (E,5, and A6 series) can compete with their new flagship, I, and many others, expect nothing short of phenomenal performance/value from the new RL. Something tells me Honda/Acura will deliver!

    http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2004/nf20040517_89- - - - 08.htm
    http://www.forbes.com/columnists/2004/04/20/cz_jf_0420flint.html
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Look out, here comes Chrysler." Sorry, but as a Lexus buyer, and knowing a lot of diehard Mercedes and BMW buyers, I know that none of them would consider walking into a Chrysler dealership and forking over $40 grand. Chrysler itself seems to be confused as to whether its a volume seller or a luxury player, I've heard conflicting reports from its own management that first they were going to go upmarket with M-B parts, and then that they changed their minds and wanted to focus on the volume segment.

    Mark, it is interesting that Cadillac has such confidence in its products versus the imports (Germany especially) that it is willing to price them directly against the Germans. An SRX V8 can pass $50,000 without much trouble, and it looks like the STS is going to be the same way.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    I really hope that the 3.5L employed in the RL is a DOHC engine. This can then be shared with the NSX. I have not seen anything that seems to indicate either SOHC (a la TL/MDX/Odyssey) or DOHC.

    Later...AH
  • cericceric Member Posts: 1,092
    Hunter001,
    come to think of it, you're right. They never mentioned it is or it is not! People are guessing it would be an long-stroke version of 3.2L on TLs, which is SOHC. A DOHC version may find its way into the next NSX rating at 350hp at higher red line.

    However, since they don't mention it, people naturally assume the worse, SOHC.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >"Look out, here comes Chrysler." Sorry, but as a Lexus buyer, and knowing a lot of diehard Mercedes and BMW buyers, I know that none of them would consider walking into a Chrysler dealership and forking over $40 grand.<

    I concur 100%. I would never pay 40 large for any GM, Chrysler or Ford car. Period. Heck, I wouldn't own a Chrysler or a GM even if you gave it to me free. (I'd sell it, but sure as hell wouldn't drive it)

    I am old enough to remember when the Cadillac was the king of the road. It's what most Americans aspired to own some day. A car that said "I have arrived".

    But then came the gas crisis of the early 1970s, and lo and behold, Americans slowly discovered the fact that cars were also made outside of the United States.

    My first exposure to a Japanese car was a (circa) 1981 Toyota Corolla that I helped my girlfriend buy. I dutifully put an empty notepad in the car, along with a pen, in order to write down all the things that would inevitably be mechanically wrong with this new car -- in order to have the dealer address them at our first servicing. This was after all, what American car owners routinely did in the 1960s and 70s. There was ALWAYS something wrong with a new American car; usually several things. But a remarkable thing happened with that little Toyota. Nothing. Nothing happened. Nothing went wrong. Ever. Ten years later I had long since moved on to a new girlfriend, but that little car was still running strong. Bullet proof, that's what I called it.

    Well, that changed my mind about Japanese cars. And while I went on to own and then quickly dispose of a Saab 9000 Turbo (a mechanical nightmare), all my cars since then have been Japanese, and they likely will be that way for the duration.

    My 1991 Legend LS - still going strong.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    I'm not convinced that DOHC is so great for the V format. All those extra cams take up a lot of space and don't necessarily increase power by that much. Honda's SOHC v6 matches up with any other company's DOHC offerings. Any differences between Honda's SOHC v6 and other comapany's DOHC v6 or i6 are pretty minimal.

    Also, wouldn't it be tough to package a DOHC v6 in a FWD car that also has an AWD drivetrain?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don&#146;t see a point in using a DOHC layout for everything that SOHC does. It would make sense if the redline were to be pushed beyond 7000 rpm, as it would in NSX. For RL, that would be unnecessary. SOHC layout allows Honda to keep the engine package more compact and lighter (don&#146;t be surprised to see if RL ends up having the best power to weight ratio for the engine).

    The only instance I have seen a mention of Honda 3.5 liter V6 DOHC &#147;I-VTEC&#148; was in the 2001 Honda Dual Note (Acura DNX) prototype. That engine was rated at 300 HP, 260 lb-ft (possibly the same rating as RL&#146;s 3.5 V6). The Dual Note got additional 100 HP from electric motors.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Try easily passing $60K for the STS AWD with the performace package group. Getting to $58K is like falling off a log.

    And, yep, I agree, a $40K Chryco car is going to be interesting in the marketplace -- but even the speed channel's gushing review said the car felt like "45K" and could initially compete with an Audi A8 or a BMW 7 series (speaking of performance with the Hemi). I Tivo'd the test drive of the 300C and have played it twice to make certain I actually heard what I just typed.

    Now, then, have you RECENTLY actually walked into a city 5 star dealer? Wow -- 1976! Even the sales reps are like Herb Tarlick (WRKC in Cincinnati's white belt, plaid suited salesman).

    Acura sales folks are "how many in your party, may I seat you -- would you care for some tea or coffee while you wait for your product specialist to join you?" -- and this, based on my years buying Audis is High-Zoot German car customer treatment (Audi & Porshce sales reps in my experience are "as if" they are MBA's just there to advise you on the purchase and they even seem to really know their products).

    Not so at your local 5 Star Pentagon dealer -- where, these days, do they find white belts, anyway?

    So, yep, dealing with the dealers, so to speak, will be a big drawback -- but $40K LIST fully loaded is, thus far, a bargain for what the thing appears to be.

    Acura's RL will, conversely, have to be a super product -- and there is evidence that it will -- but at least they seem to have the dealership experience down pat.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If the 300C is stealing sales from the A8 and 745, then I'll, well I wont even qualify that, its just not going to happen. The brand cachet for one, the dealer experience which mark touched on for another. When my wife and I went shopping for her RX, we also went to Acura, BMW, Mercedes, and.. Chrysler. She just wanted to see what the AWD T&C was like. We walked in, and there was maybe 3 people there. We had to go find a guy inside his cardboard cubicle and $30 walmart desk who didnt even bother to stand up to introduce himself or shake our hands. We asked about driving an AWD T&C, and he just said, sorry, there arent any around. We inquired about the price, and when he said $37K, I literally had to try and hold back the laughter. We just turned around and left. There's no way I'm paying $37K for a minivan that will be worth $15,500 a year later.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    I somehow like the idea of a Honda DOHC engine. It offers a lot more tuning possibilities than a corresponding SOHC engine.

    As far as packaging is concerned, the Nissan G35 has an AWD drivetrain with a 3.5L DOHC engine. The same goes for a bunch of AWD Audis and even Subarus.

    Also, since the RL is sold at a higher pricepoint (when compared to the TL/Odyssey/MDX trio), Honda can spend more money in employing lighter/stronger metals to keep the weight of the engine in check, even with the additional componentry of a DOHC format.

    Barring any info that contradicts this, I have a feeling that this engine could be a DOHC V6 engine. Of course I could very easily be proved wrong, once the vehicle hits the car mags' "first drive" circuits. Wait and see !

    Later...AH
  • cericceric Member Posts: 1,092
    Rumors have been flying around on the net about
    "You will be in for surprises...",
    "You haven't seen nothing yet...".
    I hope the following would come true in September:
    - DOHC 3.5L putting out 350+hp (A-spec?)
    Now that would make a wolf under sheep skin.
    - Hybrid - combined 30mpg, more hps.
    - Manual shift (A-spec?)
    At least make them options for enthusiasts.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Based on rumors, Honda has already gone the way of weight reduction, so there seems to be no point in adding some weight and trying to subtract it for no gains.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    Ceric:

    I am hoping that Acura will soon be offering a hybrid powerplant or other fuel saving device. It would also be nice if the engine could effectively operate on lower octane, such as 89 instead of the more expensive 91 octane, but of course that's a pipe dream.

    With the price of gas what it is now, and what it will be in the future, all that horsepower -- 300 HP -- is moot if you can't afford to fill your tank.

    Premium unleaded here in the Los Angeles area $2.59 - $2.69 a gallon.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Assuming that RL could get 19 mpg or so (city), and a typical driver drives about 1000 mile/month, use of 87/88 grade versus 91/93 grade would barely add $10/month to the cost (assuming $2.50 for 87/88-grade and $2.70 for 91/93 grade. That shouldn't be an issue to those who spend $$$ to get a $45K car.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    The last two lines, "That's the kind of excellence Honda is known for. The problem is, there are a lot of excellent cars on the road these days." are really the kicker here.

    ksso
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    hasn't the world moved on to 91, 93 & 95?
    anyway, i'd really love to see a few suprises on the RL, because as that businessweek article said, acura has its act together, but everybody else also seems to have their act together.

    ksso
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >Assuming that RL could get 19 mpg or so (city), and a typical driver drives about 1000 mile/month, use of 87/88 grade versus 91/93 grade would barely add $10/month to the cost (assuming $2.50 for 87/88-grade and $2.70 for 91/93 grade<

    Your argument is interesting but it only addressed the incremental difference between higher and lower octane fuels. You didn't take into account the overall high cost of gas, as compared to prior levels.

    My larger point was that the high cost of fuel is already influencing purchasing decisions at car dealerships. SUV sales are stalling, and demand for hybrid engine cars far exceeds what the dealers have to sell.

    There is a car buying transformation in the incipient stages that portends an entirely different market for fuel efficient engines in the coming five years. I predict that when selling our new 2005 Acura RLs it will not be as easy in such a fuel price conscious marketplace. Moreover, high fuel costs could eventually affect people's discretional driving decisions.

    A few years ago they phased out 92 octane here in California. 91 is as high as it gets here. Where can one buy 93 octane gasoline today?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The lowest octane for Premium Gasoline I have seen in YEARS (here in the eastern Mid-west) is 92. If I wanted to buy 92 or 91 octane, it would be difficult to find, probaby 3 out of 4 stations only carry 93 octane and the 1 remaining would be 92. Two stations, Marathon and Sunoco -- here in SW Ohio even offer 94 octane (but it costs 2 arms and 1 leg).

    I assume this is a regional thing -- which, so "they claim" is part of the problem with gas supplies, since a refinery can't make "premium" it has to be Chicago premium or Carson City premium or California city name here premium.

    The fuel requirements regionally, unless they can be added "locally" are probably going to be with us for a time, so it is my best guess that current gas prices will not be much affected by increasing the supply of unrefined oil -- this is a refinery issue in large measure, NOT a crude supply issue (at least not yet).

    If we magically found oil in Indiana of any significant quantity, it apparently would have little impact on price.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    legendman,
    I took an arbitrary $2.70/gallon for premium gasoline. It is much lower in Dallas area (around $2.10/gallon or so), and in that case, the "premium" for premium grade will be less than $10/month.

    ksoman,
    In Dallas area, 87-89-93 is the norm. My car requires 87 (86 or above) so I don't see why the "regular grade" would be outdated.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    and technology of refining has gone so so far ahead... then again, its a question of demand and supply.

    where can you find anything above 91? mostly along the eastern seaboard. Sunoco/Amoco often market the 94 and like ultra or something.

    i am pro higher octane use even if people vehemently tell me otherwise. Irrespective of what your car manufacturer tells you, remember, that's the minimum they are specifying. As a son of a person who worked in petroleum for 34 straight years, i will always buy 91 or more if i can afford it. lately, i've been selling my clothes to buy ;)

    ksso
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    87-89-93 is what we have here in PA. (Sunoco does sell 94, but only my dads Austin Healy 3000 actually NEEDS 94). As for the "minimum octane" thing, here's the actual truth. Cars that dont require it, will get absolutely no benefit from premium gas. You're literally just flushing money down the drain. Modern cars that supposedly require it are able to run fine on plain gas, they have sophisticated enough engine management computers and knock sensors to deal with 87 gasoline. The worst that will happen is you lose maybe 10hp. Thats said, I do use premium in my LS and XKR :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    There is no point in using higher octane, but waste of money, if the engine isn&#146;t design to use it. Higher compression engines require higher octane to prevent knocking. In fact, C&D had dynoed several engines with regular and premium gasoline. Some cars showed slightly higher output with premium, while some others (including 1998-2002 Accord I-4) showed a drop in power with premium.

    RL is likely going to have a high compression engine (10.5:1 or greater), and will require at least 91-octane. Here in Dallas, most pumps don&#146;t have 91, but 93 (the regular and mid-grade being 87 and 89 respectively).
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    If the RL, for example, requires 91 or higher octane, it is not likely that the engine won't "run" on lower octane; but, with less than premium, the engine management system will prevent, or die trying, engine damage from pre-ignition. Of course the way this often is accomplished is with the simple time tested good ol boy method -- crank the distributor cap backwards to retard the spark.

    OOOOps, wrong decade -- now the engine management computer advances the spark to the onset of ping and in amazing real time should keep the engine a full boil regardless of the octane that is used -- with the following issues:

    1. If the car is designed to run on 91 or higher and one uses, say, 89, the power of the engine will be reduced (that retarded spark thing, in effect)

    2. If the driver wants "x" amount of torque or thrust out of the engine, the driver will compensate for the retarded spark by depressing the go pedal further -- accomplishing two things, more or less supplying the power called upon and increasing the use of fuel (decreasing the milage)

    3. Now, if the engine is said to be suited for 91 octane -- OR HIGHER -- often you will see in the fine print, that the torque of the engine is somewhat lower with 91 octane than with 93 or 94 (German cars sometimes list the torque or accelerative times based on the octane, e.g.) -- and the reason for this is that with 93 octane in the 91 octane engine, the spark is advanced, which increases the power.

    Finally, the compression ratio is or at least USUALLY is a dead giveaway as to the need and/or efficacy of using premium gas. But, let me note this -- the new 3.2L Audi engine has a compression ratio that exceeds 12:1 and the thing is said to run happily on regular -- this engine, however is of a design called Fuel Stratified Injection (sometimes just called direct injection).

    Now, don't get me started down the path of "why" -- I am a Systems Engineer, not an Internal Combustion Engineer -- but the stuff I have read says that cheaper gas works just fine in an FSI engine (but that the gas must be "super clean.")

    The 2005 RL, as far as I know will have a relatively high compression ratio and will not have FSI fuel injection -- so, chances are it will REQUIRE premium and for purposes of US sales, will probably be set to a 91+ requirement so that it can "do its thing" in all 50 states and Canada (and probably Mexico, too).
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >If the car is designed to run on 91 or higher and one uses, say, 89, the power of the engine will be reduced (that retarded spark thing, in effect<

    > If the driver wants "x" amount of torque or thrust out of the engine, the driver will compensate for the retarded spark by depressing the go pedal further -- accomplishing two things, more or less supplying the power called upon and increasing the use of fuel (decreasing the mileage)<

    Some very good posts gentlemen. Very informative as well.

    Mark, I must confess that over the last year I have put in 89 octane to see what would happen -- the dealer said it was OK to do. So far the engine hasn't fallen out, but then again, I have only done it a handful of times in the many years I have owned it.

    But I take your point and I think it correct. My Honda/Acura independent garage here, which uses employees that are all certified Honda/Acura mechanics said, as you did, that my running 89 was a false economy, because the car would use more gas in order to compensate for the lower octane it was fed. Premium fuel -- so be it.

    Nevertheless, I must say that when renting a car, or driving my sister's car, it sure is nice to pay that lower price for 87 octane.

    I think that the 91 octane we have here in California was borne of two factors: (1) we had to formulate out MTBE (however it is spelled) because it was deemed hazardous to the environment, and (2) we have very stringent air quality standards, which apparently requires a more complex refining process.

    Then there is the business of too few refineries. I heard on Neil Cavuto/Fox News today that more than 25 years have passed since a new refinery was built in the United States. Anyone know if that is true? Well, it wouldn'st surprise me. The big oil companies have had us over a barrel for years.

    Barrel - get it? Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    My sister-in-law wants a new RL. This is the car she wants-- no arguments. I'm shopping for her. What's the best price I can expect for a soon-to-be-extinct '04? I'm thinking at least $3,500 (the current incentive) below invoice-- or $37,645. I've seen a few posts in other forums that mentioned $10K off MSRP. Thoughts?

    (I know this is 'future models' discussion, but it was the only RL forum with recent posts. And I'm sure some of you RL enthusiasts will know the answer to this).
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >My sister-in-law wants a new (2004) RL. This is the car she wants-- no arguments. I'm shopping for her. What's the best price I can expect for a soon-to-be-extinct '04? I'm thinking at least $3,500 (the current incentive) below invoice-- or $37,645. I've seen a few posts in other forums that mentioned $10K off MSRP. Thoughts?<

    I would say that you could offer them just about anything remotely reasonable. In the last two years I have considered purchasing an '03 and and '04 RL. The salesmen, and their bosses, made it quite clear that they would take any reasonable offer. It was a given that they would be heavily discounting the car from the invoice, not the sticker price. The dealers all know this, and once they know that you know, you'll be in a much better place in order to bargain.

    As Consumer Reports says, bargain UP from the dealer cost, not DOWN from the MSRP, or sticker price. Remember that MSRP stands for Suggested Retail Price. That is, it's merely a suggestion. It is not the price of the vehicle unless you agree to pay it.

    I have found Consumer Report's $12 car pricing service to be pretty good at getting to the true cost to the dealer. That and Edmund's.com, which sometimes shows current rebates and special offers.

    I would also be looking for low cost financing from Acura, in order to get rid of the '04 RLs sitting on the lot.

    One thing that has worked for me is to just pick up the phone and start negotiating with dealers other than the one you most prefer to buy from -- say, for example, one near your home or work. After 2 or 3 calls, starting with an obscenely low low-ball offer on your part, you should be able to ascertain what the car will be sold for by most dealers. Your opening offer should be so low that they will either laugh or choke. Start with $8K to $10K off the dealer price and see what happens. After they compose themselves, you come back with "OK, that's what I am willing to pay today -- what will your manager accept?" When they come back with the higher number, tell them that their number is too high, and then offer them a few hundred more than your original offer. If you stick to your guns, and don't blink, you might be shocked to see what the sales price will ultimately be. Don't be afraid to walk out of dealer if they are not coming around to your price.

    I'm sure you know that shopping in the last week of the month increases your leverage as the dealer seeks to get their sales numbers up in order to meet month end sales goals -- and those goals include total units sold, not just profits made. Every day that car sits on their lot it is costing them interest, hence their desire to sell the car this month, rather than next.

    When you do buy the car, please come back and let us know what you finally paid.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I understand your position, but I would still try and get her to make more considerations before making the final decision. Buying a car with blinders on is not a good idea. There's a reason for the super deflated prices, the current RL is just plain NOT COMPETITIVE. If she hasnt even bothered to consider an ES330, a TL, or maybe an S60\80, she's doing herself a disservice. If she absolutely must have the current RL for whatever reason, why new? Deflated sales and prices of new vehicles means used car residual takes a beating, which means, why not pick up a CPO Acura?
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    I disagree. If you like the RL, don't mind the stodgy styling, and don't need the latest technology, the 2004 RL will be an excellent car at an almost unbeatable price. It will be priced similar to the new TL, but will be quieter and have a couple of features not available on the TL.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    As mark stated in point # 3 and otherwise as you guys indirectly implied, it is not flushing money down the toilet. my dad was not a systems engineer and he knew his petroleum engineering really well ;) i trust his knowledge and the fact that i actually had to take a few mechanics and thermodynamics classes in my engineering school... the fact is you guys are talking about the half glass empty situation, i'm saying yes, but the half glass is full. higher octane gasoline lowers the knock, which essentially means, there are less skewed explosions and less random force vectors the engine piston has to deal with and that translates to better long term engine health and smoother piston motion plus better mileage and/or better horses/torque.

    worst case i'm wrong and i'm spending couple of bucks extra on my tank of gas and flushing it into a toilet, but it gives me peace of mind and some sanity and saves me 200 bucks later from not having to go to the shrink ;)

    and just to make this relevant to the RL, i will fill it up with 93 if I see a 93 gas station, that is if i like the RL and buy it after the first model year and the first few bugs have been taken care of.

    ksso
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