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Acura RL

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Comments

  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    jjacura - please tell me what problems you experienced with your SH-AWD. Thanks.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Steve, We have "Frozen Tundra" and an occasional blizzard to contend with here in Wi. which can make driving, anything other than a snowmobile, hazardous to your health. But our winter has just started and in this part of the state we have not had much snow. When it comes I'll have the opportunity to see how these OE Michelins perform on the new RL and I'll report on it.

     

    On another matter we have to read carefully the postings of the man from CINCINNATI in this 2005 RL forum... ;-) There is no way the lady with the law degree is going to let him off the hook from buying another Audi! Unless... Unless...perhaps if Acura could overnight produce a prototype 2006 "TL" with an "AWD" system and get her a test drive soon. Then Mark could give Acura some more consideration but until then there really doesn't appear to be anyway this couple will break ties with Audi. Any suggestions?
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "jjacura - please tell me what problems you experienced with your SH-AWD. Thanks."

     

    [lvdh] None at all...hope you didn't misinterpret a previous post? I referred to a question that came up back in October about a perceived problem somebody ELSE had with a Locked SH AWD...and the problem was solved by Acura.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    Well - I suppose you could buy 27 Acuras - and then see how the dealer treats you. . .?

    Just as a test.

    - Ray

    Kidding . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . . and she started us down this path of looking outside our comfort zone!

     

    Sheesh.

     

    I must say, that the TL, exactly as it was with just plain ol AWD, not even SH-AWD, would or should wake the market up (look out Audi and BMW A4 and 3 series, that is).

     

    I had lunch today with a fellow co worker, he drove his X5 (only his second BMW) -- he says it is hard to exit the womb-like embrace of a wonderful dealership experience. And, from his perspective Acura, Audi, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, and a couple other -- "get it!"

     

    Fast forward to 27 more of anything, and even at this rate, I'll be an octogenarian.

     

    I don't know if I can wait that long.

     

    No matter what I actually end up doing, I can only suggest that there are many perks that can accrue to "loyal, repeat customers" -- if you, reading this, are in your first Acura and you are younger than I by a at least a decade, perhaps it will be worth your while to form a long long term relationship with Acura (unless they totally underperform, of course).

     

    A great car with a poor dealership experience is still a poor car, but a less than stellar car can be quite acceptable (or so I can imagine) with an outstanding dealer experience (and company treatment for that matter).

     

    When I read about some of the stuff people have to put up with from the vendor, then are treated royally by the dealer, I do not question their sanity for remaining with the vendor (within limits of course).

     

    Reading some of the posts here and elsewhere, one can almost come to the conclusion that all vendors and dealers can learn from Lexus -- they are just THAT good.

     

    I dunno, my Audi dealer certainly treats us "like we're somebody."

     

    That may not make ALL the difference, but it sure goes a long way.

     

    Reading the last couple of posts is a bit frustrating (car in the shop, etc.) but here is where the dealer can really shine (as can Acura). For it is difficult to judge how you will be treated when nothing goes wrong -- but, if you are treated well when something does go bump, you are likely to remember the treatment and the resolution rather than the incident that precipitated it.

     

    Some folks on this forum (not just Acura) seem to want to dis almost anything European or American or sometimes just German in general. They may be right -- perhaps the Japanese makers will rule the world soon (Toyota predicts it will pass up GM in 2005 -- and THAT's a statistical FACT!). Perhaps.

     

    Remarkable improvements, however, happen every day as do shocking downhill slides -- we'll just have to wait and see.

     

    Thanks to all you cyber-psychologist's here on edmunds, as I muddle through this process.

     

    I will comment on my test drive regardless of my final decision. And, it has come to my attention that I may not go for the superior product, opting instead for the superior overall experience.

     

    Worst snow in many years falling as I type this here in River City (aka Cincinnapolis).

     

    Merry Christmas.
  • steveaccordsteveaccord Member Posts: 108
    All right,

     

    I possibly know the situation you are in! At least I presume that is somewhat related to what happens to me in another field, that of computing. For various reasons I started my dealings with hardware platforms from Digital/Unix and had my "windows" at version 1 through 3 (probably the worst ever minted by the Redmonds guys) because I actually had DOS when involved with the AT boxes (the early enclosures for PCs) to run Lotus 123 and other early software. Then I was given the opportunity to use a Macintosh and everything changed. I liked it so much that I even stayed on when things started to look not so good, and as you have hinted benefited of great enjoyment once they stepped up back on the saddle! After 25 years of computing I still deal with some of each flavor but when I buy with my moneys is invariably an Apple computer! (So much in fact, that in our household of 2 adult and a 4 yo we have 4 computers, 3 laptops and one desktop!)

     

    I guess like for your Audi buying experience, you come to learn wath to expect and looking out there you do not see anything that really justifies 'switching' to another brand/product (for me and my computer preferences the killer is how productive you can be, light years ahead of any Wintel offering). I suspect we are both strongly subjectives at times but still it works and makes us happy. So unless you really find something that makes it worth to leave the Audi shores don't do it. Having your ego stroked now and then is not necessarily a bad thing, and it works for you, In addition, as you suggested, is not absurd to think that the next breakthrough may just come form Audi, so why rush to abandon it. :-)

    Truly,

     

    Steve
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    Well we are getting our first real snow fall right now and I just drove home in it. The RL handled fine. I didn't push it to see what its limits were because I do not know the car yet nor am I experienced enough with snow driving. What I can say is that with normal cautious winter driving the car had no problems at all with its OEM tires.

     

    I have noted one thing about the RL...I think I can tell sometimes when I think the car is shifting most of the power to the rear wheels. There seems to be this very brief "pause" like the car is changing gears or like the feeling of a traction conrol coming in for a second to cut the power but I know it isn't. This hasn't happened all the time...only like 2 or 3 times, one being tonight on the snow going up hill, the other two on dry pavement around corners when I was givng her a bit of gas. Maybe somehow the system is getting confused:)

     

    Anyone else experience this? For 99% of the time the work of the AWD torque shifting has been imperceptible including this evening (obviously aside from going up that hill) on the snow when going around bends or taking off from stop signs/lights.
  • readyformyrlreadyformyrl Member Posts: 70
    If anyone can comment on exactly what you see with NavTraffic, I have definitely seen some flow information sporadically display on highways in the New York area. I live in CT, so I don't get a total opportunity to understand all of the features. I've seen incident information and clicked on it, to determine the accident location, but does any of this information automatically pop based upon potential congestion with the route selected or can you only determine flow information by looking at it on the map guide. It seems like some routes are covered and others aren't, this past weekend I noticed that the same flow information indicated congestion with red lines from Saturday morning to Sunday afternoon on our ride home.......there was heavy congestion on the GW Bridge and no information whatsoever was displayed. If anyone can shed some light on this topic I would greatly appreciate it.
  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    The problems w/ my Acura - the SH-AWD and the VSA - are far worse than Acura intially thought. Acura diagnosed multiple defective parts, including a defective VSA module (located under the dash), that require replacement and the vehicle cannot be driven until those parts are replaced. Acura's computer diagnosis procedure occurs in steps and stops when the first series of defects are identified. Acura told me that it does not even know if replacing these specific parts will solve the problem because other problems may subsequently be identified by its computer when the next series of diagnostic steps are examined. Now here's the kicker - one of the replacement parts is not available until January 14, 2005 and the other Acura does not know when the part will be available as a ship date (from Japan) has not been determined. In the meantime Acura has rented me a $20,000 Pontiac w/ 37,000 miles. I guess Acura considers this "great customer service". The case manager at Acura Client Services assigned to my "case" essentially has been non-responsive and has not been of any assistance whatsoever. I have asked the dealer from which the vehicle was purchsed (Napleton Acura in Elmhurst, IL) to replace the vehicle with a new RL. Napleton refused. I have spoken directly to the office of the President and CEO of American Honda Motor Corporation as well as the Executive Vice President of Automotive Operations, (310) 783-2000, and have been promised that higher management will respond. Looks like American Honda Motor Corporation, Inc. would rather do things the hard way rather than the easy way which means this matter will be resolved through litigation pursuant to the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, Lemons Laws, and Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Practices Act.
  • larry6larry6 Member Posts: 26
    Posting your experience here -- may provide the most leverage for resolving this problem to your satisfaction. The rest of us (including prospective buyers) are awaiting Acura's response -- but most importantly -- their ultimate solution to your rl's problem. Please keep us informed.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    This is very serious, my heart goes out to you because there but for the grace of God go I. (or any new car owner today!) We look forward to you keeping us posted.
  • nextlife1nextlife1 Member Posts: 12
    I have had the same intermittent problem with my NavTraffic that others have written about. After showing my service manager many of the emails on this forum he agreed to replace the XM box. I will pick it up on Friday and hope it works consistently now. That said, I am convinced that this technology is far from perfected even when it is working. I live in the San Francisco Bay area and commute daily across the Bay Bridge. I have noticed several things consistently wrong about the traffic information. For example every day I come home on eastbound Highway 24 in the East Bay which this time of year is virtually always backed up to the Caldecott tunnel. And everyday the traffic system only shows traffic information for westbound and shows it red (backed up) even though the westbound direction is always moving at the limit. My point is that everyday the system consistently shows the eastbound traffic conditions as westbound on the system and there is no information on the eastbound direction given at all. I cannot believe that this is due to specific problems with my XM box but suspect it is a flaw in the system. I would appreciate it if anyone else in the Bay area could confirm that their system shows the same thing.

     

    In addition, I frequently find that the system displays congestion where there is none and no congestion where it clearly exists. Some times it gets it right, but many time it seems totally wrong. Do others have the same experience? Unless changing my XM box totally resolves this it seems to me that this technology is just not there yet. Otherwise love the car.
  • nextlife1nextlife1 Member Posts: 12
    Can one record MP3s on a DVD (as a DVD-ROM like for CDs) and have them play in the RL? Or will this only work with CDs as I imagine is the case?

     

    Thanks.
  • formulaformula Member Posts: 17
    I am also in the bay area but haven't driven in congested areas much with the car to be able to judge it's accuracy. I can tell you that the technology is new, and the problems with accuracy or intermittent display is most likely not a problem with the car. The system collects information from a variety of sources and then transmits the data to the car at regular intervals to the car as data that is broadcast with the XM signal. At times I have seen the road construction and accident information but no traffic flow information. Road construction info comes from Caltrans, accidents from CHP and other media sources, and the flow information from sensors in the road. So, the intermittent data is most likely related to the source since some of the data sources are being displayed.

    I am sure that as this technology becomes more widely used, the reliability and accuracy will improve. Right now, it is still one of my favorite features in the car and I look forward to the service improving over time.
  • safeldersafelder Member Posts: 60
    I don't know...can somebody give this a shot and see if it works? It really depends on whether the stereo is capable of reading data DVDs as well as DVD-As (it's clearly capable of reading both data and audio CDs).

     

    Does anybody know how to make a DVD-A (using the Audio_TS folder and .vob files)?
  • safeldersafelder Member Posts: 60
    Sorry to hear it. Best of luck resolving the issue, even if it means Lemon Law (BTW, have you used those words with the dealer yet--if not, you might let them slip and see what happens).
  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    The following represents the Technical Service Bulletin issued on the 2005 Acura RL

     

    Component: Power Train: Driveline: Differential Unit

    Service Bulletin No.: 10282004

    NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Assoc.) No.: 10010558

    Date of Bulletin: 10/28/04

     

    This defect was investgated by NHTSA
  • mantagmantag Member Posts: 47
    It has been awhile, but I am back. Anyway, when are dealers going to get it that it is "cheaper" to fix a problem before a product is released to the public. $1 to fix problem before release. $5 to fix afterwards with great customer service and $10 if all else fails.

    That being said, I have owned honda's/acura(nsx/legend coupe)nissan and caddy. enjoyable for the most part with acura- although acura tends to be "snooty" at times(depends on dealership). Caddy sts - wonderful service/car.

    nissan-love the pathfinder, but the dealership take it or leave it.
  • fraincfrainc Member Posts: 11
    Sorry to hear about your problem, you get all happy in buying a new car that you hope is going to give you many miles of maintance free problems and then this.

     

    My son got a 04 TL that had a oil leak from the engine and they couldn't find where it came from even after changing the head gasket.

     

    The sales manager called and told him that he is giving him a new TL that was the same as his in stock. So within a week he had a problem but got a new car. To bad your dealer didn't step up to the plate with this.
  • gnarlygnarly Member Posts: 13
    As more and more 2005 RL's are sold and their owners put a few thousand miles on them, I suppose it is normal that various first-model-year glitches and defects will be reported. However, the treatment given LVDH in connection with his catastrophic SH-AWD and VSA failure is especially disheartening. It sounds like his dealer is doing a very bad Jim Carrey impression in "LEMON-y Snicket's A Series Of Unfortunate Events." No parts from Japan until mid-January? A Pontiac loaner? Is this the Acura "TLC" experience?

     

    American Honda executives would do well, therefore, to review their own advertising brochures and web site: "When you buy an Acura, you know you're in good hands. Acura ownership not only entitles you to a superb vehicle, but support you can count on whenever you need it. Acura Total Luxury Care® (TLC®) comes with every new and Certified Pre-Owned vehicle. TLC not only includes the Acura 4-year/50,000-mile warranty, but 24-hour nationwide emergency and travel services, roadside assistance, Acura Concierge Service, and more. This program of special privileges and services is exclusively for Acura owners, to ensure a satisfactory driving and ownership experience down the road."
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    Well this morning I got to test the RL in what will probably be the worst conditions to drive in this winter. Snow and freezing rain and all but one road I drove on was unplowed. How did it do? Great!! My subdivision is located on a hill and the main street to get to it has made many a car get stuck (including my previous IS300 with snows) as it is one of the silliest designed streets when it comes to winter. Well the RL this morning had no problems on this street. A van in front of me got stuck twice on it when trying to conquer one of the tight bends. I would have loved to have helped him but there was nothing I could do where he got stuck both times. But yeah, the RL had no problems. A couple spots on my drive to work the car slid to the side a bit but I had complete control since the car's tires would I guess bite before anything serious happened. Had no problems with braking on the icy roads or acceleration. I was impressed. Does the VSA have a light or warning sound when it is being used? If so, the VSA was never used during the drive. I wanted to peep the SH-AWD distribution graph as I was driving around the bends but I naturally had to pay attention to the road.:)

     

    Snow tires on this thing would probably be really incredible but the OEM Michelins did their job...not bad for tires that apparently aren't that great with snow and I think they will do the job for me this winter.

     

    Rob
  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    I'm not sure where some automotive engineers' and/or executives' heads are when they fix something that isn't broken or make the simple more complex than it needs to be.

     

    The problems you are having with your RL's "SH-AWD" system are particularly dissapointing and, in my opinion, representative of bad judgement. My wife and I have driven the RL extensively (300+ miles last weekend) and have concluded that, for all of it's advanced technology, it does not steer as precisely or feel as well balanced in the curves as a basic RWD BMW 5-series. My wife even insists that it doesn't handle as well as Acura's own FWD TL 6-speed. I haven't verified this personally, but we are both pilots and have taken performance driving courses, so I respect her opinions as much as my own.

     

    So, for all this "SH-AWD" technology, you get a vehicle that may only show any real handling advantage in inclement weather, but in day to day driving is possibly inferior, weighs several hundred pounds more than it should, and may be subject to more maintenance or reliability problems.

     

    Acura isn't the only automaker guilty of this kind of questionaly judgement. The market value of my 2002 M5 went up with the introduction of BMW's i-drive system in the 5-series. And my dealer has potential buyers interested in my car after they found out that the 2006 M5 may only be available with an quirky SMG transmission, instead of the rock solid, low tech, high performance manual transmission in the former M5.

     

    I'm not old fashioned and am prepared to accept new technology that results in tangible improvements. But technology for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. In an airplane, it can be lethal.
  • malibuflyermalibuflyer Member Posts: 8
    The LA local TV news has taken great pains to show [gloat over] all of the heavy snow now hitting the Mid West. Any RL owners out there who have driven in the snow? I any very interested in how the car handles . I have a ski trip planned and am very interested in how the SH-AWD performs in slippery/snowy road conditions. Also, has anyone use tire chains on the RL? The Tahoe area can require chains on the Interstate even if you have AWD.

     

    With several people reporting problems with the SH-AWD, I am wondering if this new technology has a significant upside when it works [which seems to be the case for most of us].
  • formulaformula Member Posts: 17
    Sorry to hear about the problems that you are experiencing with your car and I sincerely hope that you get resolution in one way or another soon. I'm sure that I wouldn't want a brand new car in the shop with no resolution as to when it would be fixed.

    That being said, I think a little perspective is in order. Claiming false advertising or fraud is a little extreme considering the thousands of other happy owners of this car which for the rest of us is a fabulous machine. It is always going to be impossible for a manufacturing process to produce 100% perfection and there will always be the occasional defect that is released. Humans still build and design these cars.

    I think that in your case the fault is with your dealer. Having had a long relationship with my local dealer, I am appalled by the treatment that you have received. It sounds like the service department doesn't have a clue what is wrong with the car and is grasping at solutions. It could be that the fix is something simple in the electronics that just hasn't been properly diagnosed, and it is hard to beleive that a part can't be made available until the middle of next month. This sounds like the dealer isn't trying very hard to fix the problem. Parts can be shipped almost anywhere in the world overnight if people want it to happen.

    Good luck, and I hope that your dealer makes this right for you. I know that there are other dealers that would.
  • prophet2prophet2 Member Posts: 372
    Your dealer "struck out" on this one. The "fix" is easy - replace the car with another unit and handle the problem with the manufacturer himself, leaving you out of it.

     

    Instead, he "missed the boat," "dropped the ball," etc. Instead of of seizing on the opportunity to build good PR, they've blown it.

     

    Keep us informed.
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    I made 2 posts (one yesterday night and one this morn) here about the RL in the snow.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Malibuflyer, you may have missed the very useful "Search This Discussion" feature on the page bar. That should help you out - let us know if you have more questions.
  • barry5barry5 Member Posts: 49
    I was just about to buy the 2005 RL but after reading the experience concerning the SH-AWD it has turned me into a skeptic for at least this years model. I drive a Lexus 430 which does not do well in snow but is the most reliable and comfortable car I have ever driven. I was going to opt for the RL because I thought it would solve the Northeastern snow problem. I guess the technology has to be re-examined and refined as well as dealership responsibility and courtesy. I guess I will stay with Lexus and await their AWD due in 2007.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    If the SH AWD perceived problem should become more widespread I can understand your concern. I heard about one case in this forum but went ahead and bought the car because it was determined to be a case of insufficient lubrication. By now there are a large number of RL's delivered and I'm not defending Acura but ultimately they have too much to lose and if there is a weak dealer out there they want to hear about it! I agree with (prophet2...post #5352) and stated so early on that the dealer should either replace the car or fix it to LVDH"S satisfaction and extend the warranty to 100,000 MILES.
  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, Chapter 15 U.S.C.A., Section 2301, et. seq., has abolutely nothing to do with false advertising or fraud.

    Acura's statements were merely identified to show Acura's/American Honda Motor Co.'s total lack of customer service.

     

    The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act is solely a cause of action based upon the manufacturer's breach of express/written warranties and implied warranties; that the defects violate Manufacturer’s Warranty, as well as the implied warranty of merchantability; that the vehicle is defective and unmerchantable condition which substantially impairs its use, value and/or safety. 15 U.S.C. §2308 holds that all vehicles are impliedly warranted to be substantially free of defects and non-conformities in both material and workmanship, and thereby fit for the ordinary purpose for which that vehicle is intended.

     

    Assuming you prevail, The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act requires a manufactuer to:

     

    1. return to the buyer all monies paid,

    2. pay to the buyer the diminution in value of the vehicle;

    3. pay to the buyer all incidental and consequential damages incurred;

    4. pay All reasonable attorneys’ fees, witness fees and all court costs; and

    5. and other fees incurred.
  • reallegendreallegend Member Posts: 28
    I took delivery of my RL about 10 days ago also did not see the traffic info I expected until I read some of the details in the Navigation Systems Manual. I am also in the NYC area and expected to see significant info. I have since gotten the system to work properly.

     

    There are three subjects you need to be aware of -

     

    Screen Scale Setting - You need to be within the range of 1/2 mile to 5 miles to see the traffic icons and info alerts.

     

    Incident Update Details - Information is updated continuously. However you are at the mercy the agency feeding the information. The critical issue is that information for metro areas varies and is usually sent only Monday thru Friday from 5:00 AM to 7:00 PM. This is noted on page 19 of the Navigation Manual.

     

    Select Roadways Update - Not all highways are updated with traffic info. As the system expands, we should expect to see more coverage.

     

    Hope this helps.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    when are dealers going to get it that it is "cheaper" to fix a problem before a product is released to the public

     

    No it's not.

     

    My brother works as an engineer for a parts supplier for a major auto manufacturer.

     

    He told me of an old part they supply that is mis-aligned and causes small coolant leaks.

     

    A few engineers designed a new part (on their own time) and proposed it to the auto manufacturer; they didn't want to be associated with the old failing part.

     

    The increase in cost was under 0.25 but got rejected (repeatedly) because it would effect well over 1 million engines. The bean counters decided that it is easier (meaning cheaper) to fix the problem "IF" it breaks than spend the extra money upfront; plus warranty periods don't last forever.

     

    The new part got implemented after a top executive had it fail on his vehicle...
  • gogglespiasanogogglespiasano Member Posts: 28
    Spiritinthesky,

     

    This is possibly the most helpful and intelligent post I have seen on the RL. It seems to have many attractive features and I am still tempted to buy one.

     

    However, I must admit that I am concerned regarding some of the problems appearing with the SH-AWD. However, the larger point you are making is being missed by the manufacturers and many car buyers. Specifically, technology is supposed to make the car easier to drive and also not hurt reliability. Braking, handling which is natural, adequate space in the rear seat and trunk and reliability are key. The car makers keep adding gadgets but give me a car with suberb braking (a definite RL weakness), acceleration, handling, passenger space and reliability. It seems to me the RL has issues in several of these areas. Not saying the car is not a decent car (or trying to provoke a fight with RL lovers) but concerns/shortcomings are real.
  • shs111shs111 Member Posts: 39
    Goggle, I think that you have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. The Acura RL's technologies are mind-boggling, but reading these recent posts about issues does make me wonder whether they're over-designed the car. It's making the Infiniti M look more and more attractive and, no question, there will be price competition once it comes out.

     

    For those of us old enough to have had the experience, it just never makes sense to pay more than MSRP. When I think of the cars that have initially commanded this premium (all the way back to a diesel VW Rabbit in LA in 1979 because gas prices had spiked), I just have to restrain myself a few months, sometimes a year, and keep that money in my own pocket rather than shelling it out to a dealer.
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    I live in a hilly, snowy area and have had great experience with the AWD on the 05 RL. Had planned on swapping out the tires but they seem fine, although stopping distances are certainly not in the Blizzak territory. Previous car BMW 540 required snows, and of course while good in snow, were no fun in dry winter conditions. The SH-AWD is definitely worth the very slight tradeoff in handing and wieght vs the 5 series. Far superior to the Mercedes 4 matic system overall. I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    If you are comparing the handling of the RL vs. your M5, you are comparing eggs and apples. Against true competition ie MB 320 4-matic, A6 quattro and BMW 525 optioned out to meet the RL in price, including a set of snows and wheels, the RL is superior. And yes, I am a pilot (CFII) as well.

    And speaking of overweight...the M5 on my track experience pushed prominantly.
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    Pushed them to replace the xm box. They finally did on the 2nd visit by pulling it from an inventoried car.
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    The only area you mention where the RL may have an issue in is in braking but that could be more a result of the tires they fit on it than the actual car/brakes. Most cars that brake better have good performance summer tires not conservative all seasons and I have seen tests at tirerack where the difference in tires can knock off 10+ feet in braking distances. Also, if you check out the braking results in the Road and Track review and compare it to the list of cars they have tested the braking isn't THAT bad compared to cars of its size. For exmaple, I believe it scored better braking distances than the 530 R&T tested. Sure, the RL braking could be better but it isn't like it has the worst braking on the market. Still, I am all for giving a car top brakes since they are a key component to a car and it is hardly an area to go cheap on. What I can say si so far the braking has been fine for my RL but I have not had to do any emergency braking.

     

    I still fail to see the issue on rear seat room since it seems fine to me aside from the middle seat and from dimenisons given, it has more room than most of its competitors in the backseat. Either I sit way differently in rearseats or people are a lot taller than my 6'1" self. Could they have given it more rear room? Probably but I for one and glad they didnt because I don't care one bit about rear seat room since I drive the car in the front and if I can be comfortable sitting in the back then any of my friends can as well...unless they plan to lounge back like they would in a Maybach 62.

     

    I dont think there is enough info to question the reliability of the car. Yeah a small few are having issues with the XM and the AWD system but they are the minority. Every model on the market will have a few cars that come off with problems. If they didn't then every car would score a 0 in the JD Power & Associates polls on problems per 100 vehicles. Heck, some people have issues with their LS430s and it is the most reliable car in the world. My parents have one and the air suspension has a messed up sensor on the right rear wheel that makes the car ride a tad crooked. Should people now be concerned of getting an LS430? No.

     

    What I do find amusing is some people now writing the car off as a choice simply because a couple are reporting problems but hey....that seems to be the north american way. You only look at the small vocal minority rather than the big picture. My car is fine. Double Js car is fine. Many other here have cars without problems....how come nobody says "oh Rob, JJ and others don't have problems. I will still strongly consider the RL" but really, it does not matter to me if they are worried about getting an RL now....I just find it funny.

     

     
    The one issue that I do find concerning is how some Acura dealerships seem to be handling these customers with the problems. That is bad and is hardly a sign of quality service. If Acura wants to be seen as a top dog they need to make sure these customers are taken care of in quick and satisfying fashion or most likely the customers will become ticked and never buy an Acura again or recommend Acura to friends.

     

    Here's hoping that if any issues arise with my RL that my dealership takes care of them in a way they should for a luxury brand and especially for a customer who bought a 70 grand car from them.

     
  • safeldersafelder Member Posts: 60
    Oddly, that's the same sort of caclulation that got Ford in such trouble with the Pinto. There was a corporate memo that essentially determined that, because the cost of the repair multiplied by the number of units far exceeded the expected value of the lawsuits, it was more economical to pay the bill when they got sued than fix it before accidents happened. It's not an uncommon calculus, but woe be the company that documents it and THEN gets hit with a lawsuit, because a jury is going to skew that calculation horrendously in that case for the callous disregard of human life, limb, etc.
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    Driving home today was not all that enjoyable. A few times coming to stop signs the ABS came on and I wasn't even braking late/hard or going fast. Then later on the car slid a bit on one street (that wasn't too bad) covered in snow which was all compacted but also sorta melting because of the sun and I dont think the car should have slid a bit like it did. Without AWD I am sure I would have wiped out and this was just driving in a straight line without any sudden braking or throttle causing the tires to slip.

     

    I am seriously thinking now of changing the tires. Yesterday they did well especially in braking on the snow but today they showed me their apparent limited snow traction that others have mentioned at tirerack and the braking was crap.

     

    The decision is do I get a set of snows and maybe some summers for the rest of the year or just a good set of all seasons. I am thinking just a new set of all seasons.

     

    Here is a question...what difference would there be by going with say a 45 or 55 profile? Not that many tires come in the 245 width with 50 profile like the RL uses.
  • surrfurtomsurrfurtom Member Posts: 122
    "The increase in cost was under 0.25 but got rejected (repeatedly) because it would effect well over 1 million engines. The bean counters decided that it is easier (meaning cheaper) to fix the problem "IF" it breaks than spend the extra money upfront; plus warranty periods don't last forever."

     

    As an engineer I agree. Big business uses complex risk management software to analyze the bottom line costs via extremely detailed assumptions related to direct costs, projected failure rates, impact on customer loyalty, and potential liability for safety issues, etc.. It's never a simple case of "we are doing our best to make your car reliable and safe". Containment or reduction in liability exposure will of course allow business to more finely tune the outcome, but that will be decided by the people and politicians.

     

    Sorry I diverge. I've been lurking and reading these posts for some time on the RL after enthusiastically waiting months for its debut. I love the car, its technology and the Acura's rep. for reliability. There are some things on my wish list like a little more rear legroom, larger trunk, ventilated front seats, a fully adjustable front passenger seat, optional V-8 and a 25K MRSP. I may bite the bullet in 2005.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Please consider a little research on issues like braking... especially given all the unsubstantiated "opinions" floating around regarding this or that technical specification!

     

    '05 Acura RL 70-0... 180 ft. - C&D Road Test

    '04 BMW 545 70-0... 156 ft. - C&D Road Test

    '04 BMW 530 60-0... 115 ft. - MT Road Test

    '04 BMW 545 60-0... 121 ft. - MT Road Test

    '05 Acura RL 60-0... 127 ft. - MT COY Test

     

    Not quite in the BMW league wrt braking yet!
  • rqcrqc Member Posts: 95
    I do wonder about how well service departments are trained before new models are released. Especially when new models have this much new technology in them. I hear a lot of comments about service departments really having no clue about what the problem really is and they just start replacing parts. Definitely not just an Acura pproblem; you could find this in almost any brand.

     

    This is where customer service really makes a difference - how a customer is treated in these moments causes either intense loyalty or rabid hatred.
  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    rqc,

     

    You are absolutely correct. With a new model, service departments learn as they go. I can tell you this, on my RL, Acura's service department has admitted this and has been constantly having to call Acura's engineers for assistance. So maybe the better question is - do ALL of the engineers really have ALL of the answers. I suspect not.
  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    I just wanted to extend my gratitude to all of you who have supported me with regard to the RL's SH-AWD and VSA problems and this issue about the total lack of courtesy on the part of Ed Napleton Acura in Elmhurst, IL. and Napelton's total failure to take upon themselves and resolve this problem directly with the manufacturer, American Honda Motor Co., Inc. It should have been very very easy for Napleton to say Napleton will take back my RL with 200 miles on it and provide me with another RL. That clearly would have been one of the fastest and most convenient ways to resolve this problem. I did request this of Napleton, but Napleton's upper management refused. Obviously, profit is far more important to Napleton then customer care. However, keep in mind that in addition to Napelton's failures, American Honda Motor Co. also has done absolutely nothing to initiate a resolution to this problem.

      

    At present, my 2005 RL remains unrepaired and in Acura's service department since the replacement parts are unavailable. Merry Christmas, right.

      

    This morning I spoke to the manager of Napleton Acura and he stated he is receiving bad publicity and he clearly was not happy about this and even seemed a little annoyed and angered with me. Imagine that, he and Napleton Acura are annoyed and/or angry with me because Napleton Acura sold me a RL that essentially never worked. Sounds like his and Napleton's anger is clearly misguided. The manager did say that "all he can do is pass it on" and that "there is nothing he can do because he doesn't have the vehicle but he is willing to have the vehicle towed to Napleton Acura." First, once again, the manager’s and Napleton's response is unacceptable - still no initiative to get involved and deal with the manufacturer and resolve this matter. Second, he doesn't have the vehicle because the vehicle broke down the second time near another Acura dealership (Pauly Acura in Highland Park, IL) and that is where the vehicle remains. Please note that Pauly Acura bears absolutely NO blame for what is occurring.

      

    Now, in reality, what difference does it make what Acura dealership's service department currently has the vehicle? Napleton sold me the car. Napleton can still call the manufacturer. Napleton can still offer to replace my RL and then deal with manufacturer directly. In my opinion, the only reason Napleton Acura wants my RL in their possession is so that Napleton can bill American Honda Motor Co./Acura for the repairs to my RL. Once again, Napleton is all about making money and enriching its own pockets, not customer care. Napleton just doesn't get it. Napleton Acura has done absolutely nothing to resolve this problem for me so why should I allow them to obtain possession of my RL from Pauly Acura's service department thereby enabling Napleton at some future point to make more money on my RL for the needed repairs - which can't even be done because the parts are not available. The parts are not available to Pauly and are not available to Napleton.

      

    Napleton continues to handle this specific situation poorly, and shows Napelton's total lack of customer care.
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    R&T tests:

     

    2004 530i 60-0...131 feet. 80-0...231 feet

    2005 RL 60-0...126 feet. 80-0...224 feet

     

    So um, yeah...what was your point again about not being in the "BMW league" wrt to braking? Note I merely said the RL's braking distances based on R&T data are close to other cars and gave the 530 example which as you can PLAINLY see, the RL stopped in less feet.

     

    I could also list the A6 braking distances that are slightly inferior to the RL but I don't see the point...same with the MB E320 which are pretty much equal. Oh what the heck, here they are:

     

    A6 60-0: 129 feet, 80-0: 235 feet

    MB320 60-0: 124 feet, 80-0: 225 feet

     

    Again, the RL's braking isn't as bad as some "opinions" (usually by people who havent even sat in the car nevermind driven it) seem to say and I DID do my research now didn't I?

     

    Of course comparing braking stats to determine how well the brakes are in cars is pretty useless unless the cars compared have the EXACT same tires and are tested on the exact same road at basically the exact same time and driven by the exact same driver. This of course is never done so there really is no point to form an opinion on a car's brakes compared to another car other than it can be a topic of discussion or something to praise/complain about.:)

     

    I stand by my feeling the RL's brakes so far seem fine to me but at the same time could be better (not because they have let me down, just because I know they could be better since they arent the best) but so can the brakes in most other cars that have inferior or equal braking distances to the RL which there are apparently many of, BMW cars included.

     

    Note that the 530 R&T data I gave above was for a 530 not equipped with the performance rubber which IMO is the fairest comparison to the RL. They did do a test of the 530i with high performance rubber and the distances were 119 and 214 feet. What does that say? It says (to me at least) the tire has a big factor in the stopping distances.

     

     
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Lvdh - Your dilema pains me greatly. What I can't understand is that Edmunds is one of the most widely read, and I dare say influential, automotive web sites in the world and that someone, from the Honda/Acura senior management hierarchy has not read or been made aware of your problem! Can this truly be? God forbid! Your problem and the bad publicity generated in this thread for Acura should be enough for them (Acura) to use every resource at their disposal to give you satisfaction and to severely censure the Napelton dealership. If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, when in comes to business savvy, Napelton Acura clearly has less than a firm grip on reality and their business should and will, suffer accordingly. Good luck to you my man!
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    ..."Touche"...

     

    "So um, yeah...what was your point again about not being in the "BMW league" wrt to braking?"
  • dennis721dennis721 Member Posts: 62
    Hi,

    Boy I am really sorry to hear about your problems witht the new RL. I would be calling every number at Honda headquarters telling them I want a new car. Napleton messed up big time in my opinion not teating you like royalty and at least giving you a 2004-TL or even 2004-RL loaner. My 2001 MDX went in for warranty service early this year and my dealer gave me a 2004 TL loaner.

     

    Napleton and Honda headquarters needs to be shocked into reality by all of us Acura owners so this cancer is nipped in the bud.

     

    I was planning on trading in my 2004 TL this comming spring on a new 2005 RL, but hearing all this is making me feel like I should reconsider. Maybe take a wait and see approach.

     

    One thing for sure though, if I lived in the Chicago area, Napleton would be off my list as apotential dealer to buy from!

     

    Good luck with your problem, I will be watching closely to see how Honda/Acura management deals with taking care of it the right way, and hopefully undoing the damage already done to their reputation.

     

    My backgroung with Acura includes three other Acuras over the past few years, including a Legend and and MDX, a Honda Accord and Hondic Civic. I have always been extremely satisfied with Honda and Acura, both with the quality and reliability of all of them. Service has also been exceptional, loaners provided when necessary ect. I sincerly hope that Honda/Acura hasent changed their operating philosophy.

     

    Merry Christmas to all.
  • lvdhlvdh Member Posts: 29
    Hey shotgun & dennis72,

     

    Thanks. I sure hope that someone in a position with authority at American Honda Motor Co. in CA and/or Honda in Japan is aware as to what is being said on this Edmunds forum.

     

    However, the very top management at American Honda Motor Company, Inc. in California is already aware of this situation as, at my initiation, I contacted and spoke with with the personal assistants to Nos. 1 and 3 below, and also sent written correspondence via facsimile and regular mail to each of the following persons:

     

    1. President and CEO

       American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

       California

     

    2. Executive Vice President, Honda Motor Co. Ltd.

       President and Director, Honda North America,

       Inc.

       California

     

    3. Executive Vice President

       Automotive Operations

       American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

       California

     

    4. President and Chief Executive Officer

       Honda Motor Company Limited

       Japan

     

    The personal assistant to No. 1 above was quite rude and non-cooperative, however, the personal assistant to No.3 was polite and professional.

     

    Having said that, being "polite and professional" does not resolve the problem and to date I have not received any contact whatsoever from anyone at American Honda Motor Co. or Honda Japan.

     

    Also, you would have thought that by now the owner Napleton Acura would have taken the bull by the horns and called me directly to discuss and resolve this matter. To date, I have not received a single phone call from any upper management at Napleton Acura and the manager of Napleton says he "has no authority to take any action or make any decisions without the approval of upper management." I guess Napleton Acura has taken the very short sighted attitude of "hey, we got that customer's money, it's not Napleton's problem anymore, and lets now focus on making more sales and more money."
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