Acura RL

uriel · December 2004

lvdh,

The dealership that serviced my RL and accomplished the repair is referenced below:

Hopkins Acura

Fairfield CA.

Hope this will solve your problem.

soapkng · December 2004

I had my RL for 1 day before it stopped working - well, it did the intermittent thing for a few days (and I thought I was doing something wrong) before it died altogether.

I did check online here and found two others who had the problem - one who had the XM unit replaced, the other had a loose wire fixed. Both had their probloms solved.

Anyway, I took in into the dealer - who had yet to experience this (always nice to be the first...NOT!) and after a day called to tell me that they need to get the factory rep down and couldn't do anything with it for a few days, so I could leave it there or get it. So, I got it, used it for the weekend and returned it mid-following-week, where they held it for a few days, then told me they had to order a part....so, again, I could get it or leave it. So I got it again and a week later left it for a day to replace the XM unit.

But, when I picked it up, as I was pulling out turning left from the dealer, I noticed that the underside of the steering had a nice scratch in the leather. So, I turned it around and, long story short, left them with an "I'll call you tomorrow to discuss this further" from the lead service manager. I was pissed (espcially after just returning a VW Touareg under the lemon law after it spent 35+ days in the shop over the first year and was 'scratched' and had other damage done to it while it was in the shop so many times...>ARRRGHHHH!!), but he called me the next day and said that they would replace the wheel.

So, I went in a few days later, but waited for it - and watched and chatted with the mechanic as he did it - nice guy. We figured out that someone had taken the car for a drive (around 10 miles if I remember correctly) even though that repair did not require one (just put the new unit in, turn it on and see if the traffic data is on) and he was not it - he says he fixed it, backed it up 20 feet and parked it.

Anyway, at that point, I just wanted to get things fixed and move on....and I'll likely go to another dealer for service....we'll see.

But, I did have the same problem.....

ivan_99 · December 2004

couch comment is not as bad as:

It could be the best car, but I would still not buy it because it has the VW logo and because I have to go to a VW dealership where the salesmen are used to selling Jettas and Golfs.

Audi VP of NA, Axel Mees, was dismissed.

soapkng · December 2004

I keep hearing that the lug patterns are new on the new RL and I can't seem to find anyone manufacturing anything in 18" for this...does anyone know of anyone out there offering anything. I was looking to spend about $2-3k on a set of 4 tires and wheels, if that's doable with something nice.

Also, while here - does anyone know if the RL can take 19" (and would anyone want to, or is upgrading to 18" good enough?)?

Thanks for any info!

DF

Silver/Black, 7 weeks old, almost 3,500 miles already.

soapkng · December 2004

Though the stock brakes are ok, they are nothing special. They are good at keeping almost no brake dust on the wheels (my last Touareg and 528 created so much of it, especially on the front wheels, but the RL's are still relatively clean after almost 4k), but I'd like to upgrade them...any ideas?

And, do 'stock' acura brakes fit, or will I run into the same problem I am having finding wheels with this lug nut/hub change they did?

Thanks again for any info!

DF

r2917 · December 2004

Um, you say you can't comment on the RL but you DID. You made many comments on the 2005 RL saying it isn't Lexus-like, doesnt have enough torque, the AWD doesnt help, etc. Go back and read your post. Actually, here is a quote of what you said:

"The new RL does not impress me at all. It does not have the look. (try to find it quickly on the large parking lot between other cars). It is smaller everywhere, the engine has the same problem as the prior version, too little torque to be called sporty. For the same money (around $50K) you can get much better cars with a higher resale value and higher overall appeal. The 05 RL is neither BMW-like nor Lexus-like. The all wheel drive does not help the fact that it still drives like a front wheel drive vehicle. Shorter wheelbase than the 04 model does not help on a highway. Trunk is so small that any longer trip requires careful planning with your baggage. While the SH drive is better than a typical front wheel car, it is not even close to the experience of a luxury rear wheel drive competitors.

"

May I offer a suggestion? Drive the car before making comments on it. All it does by commenting on a product you have no use with is make your opinion flat out useless and full of ignorance.

BTW having been around Lexus sedans for the last 10 years I can tell you the 2005 RL IS Lexus-like. It is damn close to the level of the LS430 (but with superior handling) and the LS is the definition of Lexus.

Oh and I like "the look" of the new RL. It is very nice to me. Also, its acceleration is pretty good. I have had no problems wiht getting the car going while on the highway or around town.

r2917 · December 2004

Nice post.

As for my situation, I know it wasn't the ABS. I know when ABS is working and this slight hesitation didn't happen while braking as it happened during a drive around a bend. It could be the traction control but I would think a light would come on for that.

It may just be the tranny shifting at an awkward point. All I know is it isn't a big deal.

acuraphile · December 2004

I have no problem with your posting here. In fact,your posts are object lessons in subjectivity. As teenagers, we all had expressed ourselves with minimum forethought. Just think what path your comments might have taken had you actually driven the '05RL! Perhaps your reluctance to test drive it stems from the fear of liking it, thereby removing the negative bias that you seem to embrace. Then, you might not bring yourself to post at all.

"I could never divide myself from any man upon the difference of an opinion, or be angry with his judgment for not agreeing with me, despite the illogic of his stance."

- Anonymous

pat · December 2004

Let's not make this personal. We are all entitled to express our opinions here. Believe it or not, driving a vehicle is not a requirement to have and express some thoughts about it.

By the same token, we are all entitled to decide which opinions to value and which to overlook. However, deciding that someone's opinion is not of value does NOT mean you are entitled to attack the person who expressed it.

Let's just talk about the cars and not each other.

acuraphile · December 2004

"......you can get a car that is either better driving, or....."

Pat:

   This poster never drove this car. Check out the above excerpt from his post. The aesthetic comments are one thing, the negative comment on the car's performance quite another.

   However you view my infraction (and I deem it to have been small), this poster's allusion to the car's driving performance, when he hasn't driven it, cries out for a gentle put-down.

   Must I go to my room? -:)

   Happy New Year, Pat!

pat · December 2004

And he acknowledged the fact that he never drove the car - again, there is no need to make this personal. We all can make up our own minds about which opinions we find of value and which opinions we don't.

I wasn't talking only to you; others here need to hear this as well.

There is a difference between saying "I have driven the car and I totally disagree with you" and getting personal, sarcastic, etc.

Happy New Year to you too. Now let's move ON and stop talking about each other. Really.

1violinist · December 2004

Happy New Year to everybody!

Anyone had a good end-of-the-year deal on an RL? Do you think March/April would be better?

steven9179 · December 2004

shawn, I had the EXACT same experience--to the "T". I also wrote it off and everything has been fine with this outstanding car.

Best of luck to you and all rl owners in the New Year!!!

Steve

josheel · December 2004

Just for the record my rl did the same A F S light warning at 2500 and never did it again tech checked it out and there was nothing. also just pick my car up from service because they had to replace the dash. There was a hole underneath the covering at the two o"clock position as you look at the dash at the hump behind the steering wheel. It was kind of odd they're sending it to Acura to take it a part to find out what happened many theories but I will report back when or if they tell me. In the MID part the seat position program erased itself and they replaced the computer chip. Other than those few things the car is great.

markcincinnati · December 2004

The slight hesitation -- speaking as one who only knows the Bosch stability system, so this may NOT translate directly to the Acura system -- is part of the stability system's bag of tricks. The stability system can and does activate in concert with and singularly (without) the ABS system or brake application.

Again, I am not with absolute certainty suggesting that even this is the case, I am merely extrapolating from my own experiences with my car's version of an electronic stability program.

These systems can apply a brake, multiple brakes and/or cut power and/or shift power -- they can do these "tricks" regardless of the position of your foot on the brake pedal.

And, you are correct, sir, there may be an indicator of some kind informing you of the stability program's activation.

And even the best auto trans can have a "pause that refreshes." Your statement started my train of thought when you originally suggested you might be feeling the power shift from one wheel to another (as part of the AWD activation.)

I still maintain that the AWD's actions should be imperceptible.

HNY!

rlowner · December 2004

read about it on another forum site. it appears to work on all acura nav systems (RL, TL, MDX)

rlowner · December 2004

one more piece of navtraffic data for y'all. after the dealer pulled the battery cable to reset the system, nav traffic did not come back. however, after reading on another forum that the XM HIP.ECU needs some time to discharge its volatile memory, i pulled the radio fuse and left it out for several minutes.

lo and behold, the box came back on line (confirmed in the diagnostics) and nav traffic reappeared. on a cross country trip i also found out that the nav system wont display traffic info for a city unless you are within 200 miles of that city (i could see chicago traffic from peoria but not DC's until i got closer).

IMHO, we're dealing with a firmware problem here. i doubt that changing the box out is going to prove fruitful unless newer boxes have newer firmware. probably the same goes for my door lock problem (it comes and goes for long durations).

one other cold weather problem of note: the nav display remains extremely dim until it is warmed up by cabin temps. at 0-32 deg, the display was unreadable at startup and took several minutes to brighten.

jjacura · December 2004

"I still maintain that the AWD's actions should be imperceptible."

Test drivers for Road and Track (Jan 2004) stated that in everyday dry weather you won't notice SH AWD. They went on to say that it can be sensed, however, in an extreme situation, say, when the throttle of the car is flatfooted away from a stoplight and the car is turned sharply into a 90-degree corner. (This is what I like!).... Instead of the RL pushing wide as most all wheel drive cars would do, it takes full advantage of it's powered outside rear wheel to motor around the corner in a composed manner, more or less on the intended line. The added control is simply welcome, especially so in wet and slippery conditions.

I don't know too many everyday drivers out there who would drive like this just to see if their cars can handle it but it makes for some good reading about the new RL.

safelder · December 2004

Out of curiosity, did the nav traffic for DC tell you to just stay home?

lvdh · December 2004

Update from LVDH.

2005 RL still in Acura's service department. I purchased my RL 14 days ago and it has now been in Acura's service department for the 11th day. Still no response whatsoever from Napleton Acura.

Since the last time I heard from Acura Client Services was on 12/23, today, at my initiation, I called Acura Client Services and spoke with an assistant manager who is dealing with my "case". He stated to me as follows:

(1) he just got back from vacation and has not had time to fully look into the matter involving my RL;

(2) he would call me tomorrow with some answers; and

(3) that Acura Client Services fully intends to make this situation right (whatever that means) with regard to the fact that I have paying principal, interest, and insurance premiums on my RL when it has been in service for the first 11 of its 14 days.

Actions speak louder than words. I await his return call.

Of interest to all who read and post in this forum, he did say that there is a department at Honda that monitors the chatter in this forum as well as other forums.

pat · December 2004

Lvdh, have you gotten in touch with your state office of consumer affairs? And/or the Better Business Bureau?

patrick3 · December 2004

There's little difference in road noise with the Yokahama's. I made a point to listen closely with the stock tires, so I could compare once I made the change. Almost no noticeable different. Go for it...it really completes the look of the car.

patrick3 · December 2004

Soapkng,

Please review my posting (page 272 #5422) I have already upgraded to 19" wheels with Yokahama 255/40/19's. The 19" looks outstanding with no noticeable difference in road noise, but a significant improvement in cornering/handling. The posting above will give you the information on the wheels I purchased (including a $500 trade-in for my stock wheels/tires = total cost was $1,400). Yes, the new BMW lug configuration does limit the choices, but I still had quite a few wheels to choose.

nextlife1 · December 2004

Though my Nav Traffic continues to work intermittently after having the box replaced, I am not sure I want to spend the time to try anything else. That's because I continue to find the traffic information totally inaccurate on a daily basis. For example, today I drove on a stretch of highway (Hwy 24 in the East Bay) I go down every day. Nav Traffic showed one stretch of 2-3 miles as yellow and a following stretch of about the same distance as red. Driving through both areas traffic was consistently moving at the standard Bay area speed of 75 mph or so. Not a single hiccup. I personally see this everyday. I know the technology is new, but if the system is this inaccurate it cannot be used to make the type of route decisions I need to make.

soapkng · December 2004

I know the dealer has 18" upgrades from the standard 17", but I am/was surprised to hear that you were able to put 19"......do you have any photo's of the car with the new wheel/tires, I'd love to see it!

A follow-up question....Since it seems the lug configuration is the same as BMW, is there a specific BMW that it works with and do all tires for that model work for the RL (of course, this info could be on the other post but I haven't looked yet...).

Thanks for the info, I'll check out your earlier post.

soapkng · December 2004

What tires did you go with on these new wheels? I was considering the Pilot Sport PS2 since I've heard so much about them...all good.

Thanks for the info.

DF

adam_kelley · December 2004

The manager who said "I was on vacation" as the reason why you had to contact them for an update on a problem that they knew about for almost a week, is terrible. I have always heard good things about Acura Client services and quite frankly I'm amazed at this lack of follow through. I recognize that people take vacation, but really, in my line of work people would be dead, and I certainly would be fired, if I went on vacation for a week and put everything on hold until I returned. That's why you have people cover for you when you're on vacation. My profession is extreme in that regard, but certainly not everyone at Acura Client services took vacation at the same time...or did they?

In any case, like you said lvdh, actions speak louder than words. We'll see what Acura Client Services actually does to resolve.

I'm really hoping this gets resolved to your satisfaction soon.

kyfdx · December 2004

Umm... the car is only two weeks old.... If he has a loaner, he really isn't out anything, yet..

He may be unhappy with the service from this particular dealer, but at this time, this still seems to be a short-term problem.. Doesn't mean he has to be happy about it, though..

It is the holiday season.. people are off work, and things don't get done as quickly... Patience may help a little in this situation..

Just to be clear... no one is going to make up for your interest payments, etc, etc.... that never happens until you get to the lawsuit stage.. that is someplace I wouldn't want to go.

regards,

kyfdx

safelder · December 2004

Why not go the lawsuit route? More than likely it'll force a settlement; if not, an award of costs and fees aren't unlikely in a lemon law trial. Especially if he gets before a jury of his peers (read: people that will be REALLY ticked off at corporate callousness).

kyfdx · December 2004

After two weeks of ownership? On what grounds?

lvdh · December 2004

Though you clearly have the right to express your opinions, I find your comments offensive and ridiculous.

First, the loaner that Acura provided to me is $20,000 (if that) Pontiac with 31,000 miles. Acura is supposed to provide its customers with an Acura loaner.

Second, I paid for a 2005 RL and the pleasure of driving that auto. I did not purchase a $50,000 car so that Acura could rent me a $20,000 car.

Third, the fact that it is the Holiday Season is no excuse for any company's lack service of and/or poor customer service. If that's your business philosphy, best of luck in the real business world.

Fourth, your fear of litigating a matter such as this is exactly one of the reasons why corporate america is so willing to take advantage of the general public. Stand up and fight for your rights!

Fifth and finally, you seem to have missed the whole point of this discussion. Acura/American Honda Motor Co. Inc., Honda Japan, and Napleton Acura prides themselves and portray, advertise and hold themselves out to the public as having the highest of highest customer service and best/most reliable vehicles manufactured - yet they have essentially not in any way, shape, fashion or form responded to my request for assistance and resolution to this matter. Many return calls promised, virtually none received.

lvdh · December 2004

If you want to know what grounds, read the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, Chapter 15 U.S.C.A., Section 2301, et. seq.

kyfdx · December 2004

Well... you shouldn't take offense.. As you say, it is just my opinion..

And, here is another one..

Two weeks... If you think threatening legal action will make this process go any faster, then you haven't dealt with many car dealers or auto manufacturers... Nobody likes being threatened... I don't personally know your financial situation, but I've got to believe that Honda and Napleton Acura can wear you out with lawyers...

Holiday season... those are the facts of life... and I work for a company for which that is the busiest time of the year... My little section of the company visits 400 customers per day in our area... Tomorrow? Only 110 are open..

And..I got your point about poor customer service.. But, it depends.. do you want a resolution to the problem, or do you just want to alienate everyone that is in a position to help you?

I can only go by the tone of your posts, as I don't really know you, obviously... But, if you come off the same way to the people who are in a position to resolve your problem, then you are doing yourself no favors..

And, I stand by my previous assertion.... for two weeks without a car, you will get no compensation for interest, etc... Trying to achieve that will end in nothing but frustration.. Something that you already seem to have enough of...

regards,

kyfdx

tayl0rd · December 2004

I agree with kyfdx. You won't be compensated for any interest, payments, or insurance after only 2 weeks out of service. You haven't even made any of those payments yet.

Of course, you could talk to a lawyer, but the cost of his/her consultation would probably be multiple times more than the diminutive compensation that you may be (and most likely aren't) entitled to. At this stage, though, you aren't entitled to a thing.

One thing I disagree with kyfdx on is the excuse that it's the holidays. That's no reason whatsoever to sit on somebody's car for 2 weeks! I wonder how any of those people would feel if their brand new car was sitting in the shop longer than it sat in their own garage.

lvdh, about your only recourse right now is to lodge a complaint with the BBB, which will net you nothing in getting your car back, but might have repercussions against the dealer later on. And with that, I'd wait until after I got my car back and was satisfied with the repair.

Concerning the loaner you got, that is at the sole discretion of the dealer. You're fortunate to have gotten one at all, and you can't realistically expect to be given a $50K loaner car. Even Mercedes loans out "only" E-classes or, worse, C-classes when someone takes their S-class in for service. Imagine going from an S600/S55 to a C230!! Would you have been happier if they loaned you an old Integra?

As far as the lemon law goes, you have to be without your car for more than 30 consecutive days in most cases. My bet would be that they will give you your non-repaired car back around the 28th day just so you have to bring it back in and the out-of-service time starts over from zero. And I don't know how true this is or not, but I heard recently that you actually have to PAY to have a Lemon Law case considered! The fee was said to be $250 and if they reject your claim, you're just out $250!

low_ball_88 · December 2004

kyfdx is a frequent poster on the BMW 5 series forum. He is likely here to critize any RL owner. kyfdx - Do you own an 05RL? or any Acura vehicles?

markcincinnati · December 2004

. . . my Audi dealer owns Acura, Audi, Cadillac and Porsche (none of these are dual dealerships, they are all stand alone and they do NOT carry the name of the owner -- repeat and loyal customers know what the owner owns, but not because it is called Smith's Acura or something like that).

Anyway, when I take my Audi (which is a 2003 allroad, stickered at $49,000 in fourth Q 2002) in for service (and my brand new Audi was in for service for the first 11 days of ownership due to the fact that the On*star system was not connected properly AT THE FACTORY or where ever it is connected, but certainly NOT at the dealership) I do get a free of charge "comparable" loaner.

I had traded in a low milage 2001 Audi A6 4.2 on this 2003 allroad -- so when it needed On Star repairs and it took 11 days, they just gave me my old car back to keep on using. Other much shorter issues (the driver's bucket seat had to be replaced which required a part to be sent from Germany -- the whole thing took three or four days) requiring me to be without transportation have always been handled with another Audi or a "premium" rental car, that Audi pays for. Once I got a Volvo, another time a Cadillac CTS, yet another time an Audi S4 (now that was a blast but it had an auto trans).

About the only issue I can see with the problems discussed above is the choice of the loaner car -- and although I agree it is the dealer's choice, the choice in this case seems, uh, "unwise." Perhaps a leftover TL would be at least OK or a leftover last model RL (there must be plenty of those hangin' around). My dealer group pulls A4's and A6's (one model year old, but still new) as loaners -- but of course the Audi Advantage program dictates FREE loaner cars (heck I even get one when I go in for an oil change).

The story as I read it is unfortunate, hopefully rare and possibly would "read better" if the dealer had chosen his customer's rental car "wisely" -- after all this is a new model (the RL) and I would think that the dealer could really shine with a couple touches of class here and there.

The problem with the car may not be mitigated solely by a loaner upgrade, but I have found that people really hate it when they feel chintzed out (the difference between the Pontiac's rental cost and the "TL's" to pick one is probably minimal.)

If Acura does NOT routinely offer no questions asked loaner (for free) cars, this too shall be taken into consideration as I move down the path, possibly away from Audi and toward another (gasp!) brand.

While I do not own an Acura, all that I have read -- excluding here -- about the new RL has just been dandy. I am in no position to crack wise or criticize (Burma Shave!)

ceric · December 2004

kyfdx is a frequent poster on the BMW 5 series forum. He is likely here to criticize any RL owner. kyfdx - Do you own an 05RL? or any Acura vehicles?

If a guy posts a lot on a BMW forum and doesn't own RL yet is likely to criticize the new RL. Please make it two to count me in. That's funny.

aclc · December 2004

Has anyone done their own oil change on their 2005 RL? Is the filter hard to get to? I believe you can only access it from under the car.

jjacura · December 2004

"If a guy posts a lot on a BMW forum and doesn't own RL yet is likely to criticize the new RL. Please make it two to count me in. That's funny."

The BMW thing makes me laugh...and it also reminds me of my son. I enjoy the Holidays because it gives me an opportunity to spend some time with my 35 year old son. He and I love to hop into each other's car and just drive....we went downtown today in my new RL and had lunch at our favorite Chili shop. He drove. (Been going to "Real Chili" since Sept of 1960 when I hit town to attend college. anyway. best damn chili I've ever had... Cincinnati's doesn't touch it!) Anyway my son owns a BMW M3 and when he bought the car 3 years ago I enjoyed the excitement it created for him but never said a word about his decision to leave Acura for BMW. Today was his first ride in the RL. I have to say...I have never seen him get this excited over any vehicle ever. He wants one bad. :-)

mccccland · December 2004

Let me respond to all who did comment on my postings. First to clarify, my primary concern was about the Acura official making a derogatory statement (in my opinion) about the pre-2005 RL. I have not seen anybody defending it. Some agreed with me that it seemed inappropriate. While a personal opinion is what it is (just a personal point of view) and everybody is entitled to their own personal opinion, there is no reason for personal attacks. Relax guys (and gals). We have over 250 models available for sale so everybody can choose what they like and nobody needs to defend their choice. I reflected on my impressions of the 2004 RL, which were objective and based on my personality and my expectations (and also what I could afford at that time). At the time I bought it, I knew that it was a compromise, a good average of all I expected from my next car. Now I know that it does not sense to make compromises. I still stick to my opinion that the 2004 RL is an average car when compared to other cars in the same price range. Some people like average, I do not.

If it come to the 2005 RL as I stated clearly I did not drive it, but to satisfy those who were upset that I dared to have an opinion about the car (without test-driving it first), I will drive it tomorrow. Dealer already contacted me as he knows I can afford it, so he is looking for an opportunity to sell it. I may change my opinion after the test drive, though I doubt it. First and foremost, one must like the look of the car in order to like it. I do not consider the 05 RL to have a distinctive look (though I do not want to have an extensive discussion over it, it is what I feel, which is not representative of what anybody else feels). The inside look much better, but my problem is that the car is small inside (again, it is small to me, it may be huge to some of you). There is another vehicle which is small inside, the 530, but in my opinion (again) the 530 overall is a much more appealing car than the 05 RL.

Now on the "problem of torque". I drove a number of vehicles (as most of you did too) and what I learnt was that having more torque helps. My Yukon has 325 and I can rely on it all the time. I cannot say it about my Acura. The 2004 features 231 torque at 2800 revs, while the 05 RL has 260 but you have to rev up to 5000, which is not used most of the time in everyday driving. On the other hand the GS430 (which is the 8 cylinder I admit, but cost the same as the 05 RL) has 325 torque and the 0 to 60 is 6 seconds flat, not over 7 seconds for the 05 RL.

What I look for is what the money can buy. Personally I do not find the 05 RL look appealing, the vehicle is smaller, trunk is just 13 cubic feet, wheelbase is just 110 inch. To me it is a small car. If I want a small car for the same money, but much faster I can get just a little smaller S4. S4 leaves the 05 RL way behind.

Again, not to antagonize anybody here, the choice of car is a personal thing. If you like the 05 RL, enjoy it, have fun. For me if I need to spend another $50K on a car, there are better choices. Acura seems to be going away from luxury vehicles and tries to become a sporty alternative. As long as they do not have the rear wheel drive, I do not believe they will win many people over who look for a really sporty car. But if you like the 05 RL, go and get it.

Let me share my thoughts about the test drive next time. Let me warn you though, I do drive decisively.

jjacura · December 2004

"Let me share my thoughts about the test drive next time. Let me warn you though, I do drive decisively. "

Mac...Have a good test drive.... Thanks for the warning and... if you drive decisively then... This may be the car for you! Happy New Year!

lvdh · December 2004

Unfortuntately you each make comments about matters that you have no idea what you are talking about. Though I'm confident your intentions are not malicious, your comments are misleading to others who read (and perhaps rely on) the information contained in this forum.

First, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act is a federal statute and is a completely separate cause of action from a "lemon law" cause of action which is state statute. Unlike most state "lemon law" statutes, The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act does not require that a vehicle be in service for 30 or more days. The 30 day requirement is generally required under state statute "lemon laws."

Second, with regard to your statement that "my bet would be that they will give you your non-repaired car back around the 28th day just so you have to bring it back in and the out-of-service time starts over from zero" is again just completely wrong and again misleading for the following reasons.

Generally, state "lemon laws" do not require that a vehicle be in service for more than 30 consecutive days. Rather, the vehicle only has be in service for a total of 30 or more days (typically within the first 18 months). There is no requirement that the 30 day period be consecutive, and no requirement that the vehicle be in service for the same problem.

Generally, state "lemon law" statutes hold that if a vehicle has been in the service department 2 or 3 times for the same problem (even if only for a total of 3 service days), OR (the word OR is important) the vehicle has been in service for atleast 30 days, that generally qualifies as a cause of action under most state "lemon laws." Once again, these are not the requirements of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

Third, a lawyer who concentrates in consumer protection area such as matters involving "lemon laws" and the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act will typically not charge you for a consulation. If a lawyer requests a consulation charge/fee for this type of matter, I suggest you run away from that lawyer as fast as you can. You will easily find a qualified lawyer to discuss your case free of charge.

Fourth, you do not have to pay to have a Lemon Law case (or Magnuson Moss case) heard before a court of law. Typically, a lawyer will represent you and take this type of a case on a contingency basis (where you do not pay the lawyer by the hour or pay any money upfront or during the litigation - no fee unless you win) because under the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, if you win, your lawyer can recover reasonable attorneys fees and the costs of litgation from the vehicle manufacturer. However, if you lose, typically you as the client remain responsible to your lawyer for the costs of litigation your lawyer expended on your behalf. Some lawyers (not all) will not request or seek from you reimbursement of costs if you lose as some lawyers consider this to be the cost of doing business. Costs include such things as court filings fees (such as the filing of a lawsuit), court costs, expert and witness fees, court reporter fees, deposition transcripts, etc.

Fifth, the fact that I have not paid a monthly payment on the vehicle because the vehicle was purchased 2-3 weeks ago does not mean I have not already incurred the expense. You begin to incur principal and interest expenses from the very moment you sign the purchase contract. Obviously, you do not get possession of a new vehicle with the first month free.

Sixth and finally, just believe me when I say that neither Napleton's nor Honda's attorneys will wear me out.

If you gain any knowledge from this post, that's a wonderful thing.

rroyce10 · December 2004

....... Sorry to read about your problems, it's not fun to buy a nice vehicle and have problems with it on the onset, whether it cost $15,000 or $50,000 .....

             That said (and no excuses intended, it's called the: Tumbleweed time) this is the slowest time of the year for the auto industry and that goes for any of the district or regional reps for parts and service, so whether you drive an Acura, Bimmer, Benz or a Cavalier I can see it happening, I may not agree with it, but I see it, most take their vacation times about now ....

              But it does seem you are more concerned about driving a Pontiac than getting things done .. alienating the dealer is not going to give you any help, especially with only 2 weeks passed and dropping their name all over the place and their biggest sin is not getting the part, it's kinda like cutting your nose off to spite your face ... but I guess the one thing I don't understand the most is - not making the payment.? .. do you quit making your home mortgage payments if the washer or dryer quits working.??

                             Terry.

ivan_99 · December 2004

I believe I understand what you are trying to say.

My wife and I were recently on a trip and were passing through a fast-food drive thru. The person on the other end of the speaker started to get an attitude. My wife decided to chime in with the other person; chime may not be a good word to describe this (my wife can get vocal). After we got our food I told my wife to wait till AFTER we receive the food before she starts laying in on the person.

From my point of view I think nodding and smiling is what is intended until you get your car back, then you can raise H#LL. Otherwise you may get spit in your oil. My wife on the other hand goes in with guns blazing.

As it is now I dont think there would be anything the dealer could do to make it all better ; even if they fixed the car (other than forgiving a years worth of payments).

00boxsters · December 2004

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3782

driftracer · December 2004

I'll reply here, considering I'm not an amateur - making gross assumptions about something you don't know about will waste your time - you've already experienced that, in case you didn't know.

My friend, Walt (kyfdx) has hurt your feelings, and for that I'm sorry, but he is spot-on in both his logic and information.

It is you, sir, who are mistaken about this whole loaner car, lemon law, and Mag-Moss thing.

First and foremost, you are completely and totally wasting your time by writing letters and making phone calls to every at the dealership and Acura. You've served to annoy everyone during the holiday season, and that will cost you friendly points for getting things done.

I read once that the CEO of Ford gets over 25,000 letters a day. Do you think, for one second, that he reads them all? Or any of them? Now, Acuras are leaps and bounds beyond Ford products, but I doubt that any correspondence from you gets the time of day.

You're guilty of the common perception that 95% of my lemon law clients are guilty of - you actually believe that the manufacturer cares about what you have to say. Get over it, they don't.

Additionally, the dealership did not build the car and provides no warranty on the car, so they're under no obligation to do anything but attempt to repair it. Once you've made everyone angry there, during the holidays, they may be well within their rights to tell you to take the car somewhere else.

Second, NO manufacturer is required to give a loaner car, based onany state or federal law. That they give you a loaner car is a gift and you should be thankful.

You may be very angry and annoyed, as I would be if there were problems with my brand new car, but if you bought anything other than the car you did (or a BMW or M-B), you'd REALLY be angry, since if you wanted to drive, you'd pay your own rental car bill.

Mag-Moss is the cornerstone to every state's lemon law, just for info.

I tried to find out from reading posts what the exact problem is with your car - I couldn't figure it out. Feel free to go over it again, and perhaps my research could help you.

Two weeks doesn't do anything for you, as far as qualifying for anything. First, the dealer has no stake in this, and I highly doubt that the manufacturer is going to buy the car back without being sued, provided your specific issue meets the Holy Grail requirement - a "significant impairment of use, safety, or value". And you, the consumer, don't get to say what is "significant", by the way, just to inform you.

I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers - I'm on these boards for three reasons - to help consumers, to learn about new technology, and to socialize with established friends.

Take my advice for what it's worth - your mileage may vary. I have over 6,000 lemon law cases behind me, and I know how these things work.

As long as you're not mean, like I believe you've been to the dealer, I'll be glad to help. I'm a Christmas and New Year's fan, though, and I won't let someone ruin MY holiday...

Jim

houstonguy1 · December 2004

This article goes to show you that the experiential side of driving a car is never black and white. It's funny that so many of the established automotive mags loved this car and its handling and Autospies did not. Personally, I think they're crazy.

markcincinnati · December 2004

It has been my experience that "your cause" is often advanced faster and more favorably if you are a good customer. I am not suggesting that you become a door-mat; but I do urge anyone who wants "A+" treatment to attempt to engender a spirit of give and take, rather than rant and rave.

Note: while no manufacturer is obligated to provide a free loaner, several manufacturers Customer Care programs do include the use of a car at no cost: Audi, BMW and Mercedes do offer such features with their 50,000 mile maintenance and warranty programs (that come as part of the MSRP). If it is true that Acrua has no such program, it would appear that the fact that "free" transportation has been provided is, apparently, above the call of duty.

Perhaps the approach that could be taken from this point forward is a "do over" -- Acura, I'm certain does not want this issue to continue, they do not want to know that this dialog is on the Internet let alone continuing with such rancor.

I suggest you attempt to kill 'em with kindness. I suspect you will achieve your objective if you get the dealer cooperating (responding) with you rather than merely reacting to your gripes (even though as people they [and we] probably all empathize with your situation.)

Any attempt at this early stage to litigate this matter will surely serve to exacerbate the situation -- that isn't really what any of the parties involved want.

My lawyer wife uses a term quite often -- "the reasonable man" (or person). Although I do not have the years of legal education or experience that she has, it would seem to me that this is a case for reason over emotion.

Send them a Happy New Year's greeting -- kill 'em with kindness!

patrick3 · December 2004

No photo yet, but I will post one once I take it. The wheel company I went with actually put 20" wheels on two RL's and said the wheel well could handle it. To make it work, you need to go down to a 35" profile(255/35/20) which starts to impact the stiffness of the ride. The narrower the sidewall, the harder the ride. Going from a 50" to a 40" didn't impact much, but beyond that I'd not recommend dropping to a 35". The Michelin Pilot's you mentioned are very good tires. You need to look at the wear rating of the tires. The softer the tire, the quicker the wear. The Yokahama's should get me 25,000 miles with tire rotations every 5,000.

The Pilots

00boxsters · December 2004

In their explanation, they try to say that the big mags are afraid to say the truth because of big money ads.

I drove the RL and do not agree with their assessment but I do agree with their supposition regarding big ad money affecting journalistic integrity.

Acura RL

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