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Comments
First, Germany has the highest labor costs in the world, way higher than both US and Japan. Cars made in Germany start out being more expensive because the labor is far more expensive. That is why VW built plant in Mexico and bought up SEAT in Spain and Skoda in Czech Republic. They couldn't sell inexpensive cars made in Germany; their labor costs were too high. So the German car companies now focus on building upscale cars in Germany, pushing them in markets where the high labor costs can be recovered and don't put them at an immediate and insurmountable disadvantage.
Second, exchange rates do change over time and can drive a car's price up or down greatly even if there is no change to the vehicle. Twenty years ago the dollar-yen exchange rate was probably close to 200-250 yen to the dollar. Now it is half that. The Euro, which is replacing the mark, franc, etc., was selling at about $1.17 at its inception last year but is now worth only about 87 cents. Using the 10/18/00 NY Times Business page, over the past 52 weeks the Japanese yen gained 2.44% on the dollar, while the S. Korean won fell 6.04%; German mark gained 27.26%, while the British pound fell 13.28%.
The above partially explains why US, European, and Japanese are all interested in "cracking" the Korean market. It is big, labor costs are relatively cheap, and the exchange rate has been favorable for exporting. The gamble is that these sorts of factors, including political stability and no real threat of war with N. Korea, stay relatively constant, making a large investment worthwhile.
Floridian
Too, Toyota and Honda build many lines of cars and trucks right here in the US. If Hyundai enjoys the history & mystique the likes of Mercedes Benz and BMW, the XG300 would undoubtedly not carry a mere $24,000 price tag.
Am I equating Hyundai's build quality to that of fine Eurpean brands? Certainly not. My point is simply that manufacturers set their prices largely according to what customers are willing to pay. A bigger MSRP most definitely does not automatically mean a proportionally better car mechanically.
Particularly in the realm of luxury cars, visceral appeal account for a significant portion of the perceived value of a vehicle. Since the XG300 is rather shortchanged in that department, its price tag reflects that precisely.
I still think the XG300's real benefit to HyundaiUSA will not manifest in its own sales numbers, but in infusing the marque with a healthy dose of brand recognition and respect. One that is sorely needed by the Rodney Dangerfield of car brands that has long stood as HyundaiUSA's only claim of fame.
2. Do keep in mind that when VW does their accounting, they do it in German marks (moving to new Euro). They have to convert peso and dollar sales into marks, which is one reason they have had to keep their prices rather high in the market. And yes, VW has a certain cachet that Hyundai certainly doesn't. But as buyers showed them from about '85-'95, they are willing to desert VW in droves when product is not great and pricing too high. (They hit rock bottom around '93 when I think they sold a grand total of around 50K vehicles. You couldn't find a VW dealer to save your life and his lot was empty of new cars, surviving on used car sales.) VW expanded their operations in Mexico to escape high labor costs in Germany and have a plant close to US and viable in Latin America (to compliment what they already have in Argentina/Brazil). VW had been building old Beetles for decades and still builds them today, but they can't be certified for US purchase.
1 XG on the showroom floor. I must say I was very impressed by the looks and the feel of the car. The model they had was regular XG (not L), but it did have leather, sunroof, etc... The manufacturer sticker was something like ~$24.
But... the actual sticker had $895 pinstripes and undercoating + $1895 mysterious "Protection Pkg XXX" added on (for a total of ~$27K). WHAT ARE THEY SMOKING??? I forgot to ask the salesperson what's exactly included in this package...
Note to Hyundai dealers - DON'T BE STUPID. You have some nice cars available, but you still have ways to go before you earn public's trust.
My 2 cars right now are Acura Legend and 3.5RL, but guess what - I will not even look at Acura/Honda until the dealers stop gouging people.
The factory sets the MSRP for a reason...
2. Volfy: Saw this in last Thursday's Financial Times, under headline "Mazda plans to shift production away from Japan". Excerpt:
"The company, which has almost no production outside Japan, estimates adverse currency movements have cost it around $1bn over the past two years ... it would decide whether to expand manufacturing in Europe before the end of this year ... Mazda is particularly exposed ... Europe was Mazda's largest single overseas market, accounting for 42 percent of export volume and 28 percent of total domestic production. Strategically, it has very little choice but to make the decision."
Hyundai is also vulnerable, which is likely a big reason why they appear to be interested in production plants in W. Hemisphere and Europe.
Floridian
My small midwestern town Chrysler dealer, a real tiny operation, has 3 used PT Cruisers in stock. Spoke with a salesman. They got them from auction. Dealer owner driving one now. Other being used by sales manager. Dealership using kind of as rolling advertising since everyone notices them. They are only trying to sell one. Has sat in showroom for about 2 weeks. Think they are asking too much (which is also what salesperson told me).
Floridian
This is a great value however there should be more leg room for the driver....but this car was built for Koreans so go figure. The there should also be a longer arm rest. There all over Chicago allready...and so are the Sante Fe's(SUV).
2. chanasarah11: Thanks for the info. NY Times Business Foreign Exchange Section lists Canadian dollar at about $.6539 cents US. So $29,000 Canadian would be around $19,000 US. That price seems low, or you got a great price, or you get a lot fewer options, or it excludes TTLD.
3. keyrow: Hope you get the one you want. Let us know exactly what you get, and what you paid for it (if you don't mind), as well as the level of dealer service and after-the-sale service. My wife might consider one but only if they treat her like a Queen.
Also, if there is a problem with the system, the mechanical components is covered for 5years/60,000miles and the refrigerant charge is covered for 1year/12,000miles, which is also better than Nissan and VW.
1. Even though the seats are leather, the bean counters at Hyundai decided to keep part of the front seats as cloth. Yes the inner side of the
front seats next to the gear box are cloth. It looked awkward to me that a seat would be leather
from most sides except one.
2. The stitching on the leather is singular and the edges where the leather meets are not stitched together, meaning if you have kids as naughty as mine they will easily grab it and rip
it apart.
Everything else looks and feels very upscale, I would take it over a Maxima anyday. I am still too
young for a big car like this though.
I bought a Base XG300 white/beige with the manual A/C and floor mats. MSRP $23,512 including freight. The Atlanta dealer had added $2000 for simonize, pinstripes, door edge guards, and additional dealer profit. I had been working with the salesperson for several months (originally looking at the Sonata) and it only took us about 15 minutes to agree on $23,000 plus tax, title, and tags. They were happy, and I was happy.
I had been test driving different cars for several months including the Maxima, Camery Solara, Mercury Sable, and Toyota Avalon. My previous car was a Subaru Forester (think AWD road rally chassis) which I had been pleased with so I was used to fairly good suspension and handling characteristics. But mostly this time I was looking for a smooth highway cruiser as I was spending about 75% of my time on the freeway.
I had read the Canadian and Australian reviews cited in the first message here, and so on three different test drives I attempted to stress the suspension into the behaviors that the Australian review had expressed concerns about. Couldn't do it. Still can't do it now that I've driven 250 miles in my new car (though admittedly I'm still in the break in period and not driving as aggressively as I usually do). Either they changed the suspension settings, the reviewed car had a problem, or they drove it more extreme than all but the most aggressive drivers will ever drive it. I've got a downhill 90 degree left hand turn with very wavy pavement that I usually take at about 15 mph that I used to make the Forester skitter over, and the XG300 handles it no problem.
There is no mistaking the XG300 for a sports sedan though. The ride is somewhat floaty like the Avalon and the steering while competent is not BMW precise. Drove in the rain today and felt quite safe. It may be that the vehicle at 3600 lbs is heavier than I'm used to, but it feels very planted on the road. It also feels very solid. I've driven it over all my favorite neighborhood ruts and potholes, some of which would jar my Forester, and the XG300 handled them very well without any rattling or squeaking.
Almost all the interior plastics are textured and in my opinion high quality. The switches, especially surrounding the steering wheel feel very precise without feeling clicky. Even the glove compartment has a satisfying clunk. My opinion of the overall build quality is that it is very good. The seat leather is clearly not top quality, the Avalon and Sable had better leather, but at 6'2" I've got more than enough legroom even with the seat not all the way back. Also, if anyone from Hyundai is reading this, I would have preferred ivory leather over beige.
All car purchases in this price range are compromises of one sort or another. The Sable had better seats, the Avalon had a smoother and quieter ride. The Avalon also cost $5000 more for equivalent features. The most distinctive thing I liked about the XG300 is the transmission. It is very smoooooth and accelerates very nicely at highway speeds. Haven't quite figured out what circumstances that I would use the manual control for still it's nice to havve.
Couple of minor observations. Unlike the Sonata, the headlights turn off when the key is removed from the ignition (a very important feature when you're as absent minded as I am). The security system is always armed when you lock with the remote. There is no audible alert when you lock or unlock (the lights flash). The windshield wipers stalk has a button on the end of the stalk which gives a single swipe. Very handy. The intermittent wipers at full speed are about the same as the low setting, so there is a good range of speeds available. When you open the front door there is ring of light around the ignition switch. The equalizer retains separate settings for the radio and CD, and the CD remembers where it left off in the middle of the song when you switch it off or switch to the radio. The front tires have mud flaps. Oh, and the fuse box is very conveniently accessed in the engine space with a fuse map under the cover. I know this because when I stuck four fingers into the four window up/down switches and opened and closed them all at the same time I blew a fuse. Whoops, guess the designers missed that. Oh well I'll just have to do them two at a time
The only other problem that I've discovered is that the idle seems set a little high, even when the vehicle is warmed up. I'll have the dealer look at it after the break in period. Only time will tell if Hyundai has built Honda/Toyota type reliability into it's vehicles, but if first impressions are any indication, I think they've come a long long way.
Obviously I'm pretty pleased with my purchase.
I test drove the XG 300 yesterday for the first time and now its high on my list. I'm also considering the Accord EX V6 and Maxima. Can you tell me why you got the XG over the Maxima?
Floridian
I do know that Hyundai is giving a $1000 customer loyalty discount to existing Hyundai owners which I suspect is included in the discount you mentioned. The difference between invoice and MSRP is around $2400 for the base and $2700 for the L. So the dealer is making a profit of $400 to $700. Still though, you're right, it's pretty good deal.
I found a Florida dealer on the internet who was quoting better prices than that, however my limited experience with internet prices, even when going thru a broker, is that you always have to take into account mandatory "dealer costs" approx $400 and that those often worthless dealer add ons can't be just crossed off. Internet prices can sometimes be a bit like newspaper prices, not always reliable when you get down to the bottom line. Other factors for me in buying local were that I wanted to have a good dealer relationship and the Atlanta dealer had a pretty good reputation. I also had a lease trade-in happening at the same dealer and know I got some brownie points on wear and tear. A good buying experience was more important to me than getting the absolute best possible price. I have a brother however who enjoys going big game hunting at dealers and he tends to get very good prices. My temperament is a little different. I felt like I got good value for my money.
oregonmike:
Actually the Maxima was my starting point, as I know I fit in it and that it was a reliable car (my Dad has owned three over the years). The dealers in Atlanta were also heavily discounting the Maximas, if you believe the newspaper ads I liked the XG interior better than the Maxima. That however is an entirely subjective thing. The Maxima has a visually harder sharp edge techy interior and the XG had a softer more stately rounded interior. I was mostly looking for some peace and quiet so the XG interior appealed to me. I also really liked the center console layout on the XG. In terms of performance, the XG had a smoother transmission and the Maxima had a more precise ride. Also I put the Hyundai warranty in the context of what it would cost to purchase the same warranty on a different vehicle and saw that it confers a $700 to $1000 price advantage in addition to it's already lower cost.
I didn't even look at the Accord, or Accura for that manner, because in order to get it optioned out you are forced to get a moon roof and I simply didn't fit. Seems strange that they would so purposely eliminate a sizable percentage of their market that way, but I guess business is good anyways.
I tend to look real carefully at the emotions that are being "sold" thru the vehicle's marketing (including the subliminal messages) and checking to see whether they are worth anything to me or just pabulum. The Avalon brochure, for example, has an image suggesting that a perplexed beat down middle aged man can, within the "Avalon sphere", be made to look like he's 30 years younger and carefree, much to the approval of his wife. Audi seems to think that "joy" is a commodity that can be bought and sold. And don't even get me started on "Ooooooh, like a rock" My own "needs" in a vehicle tend to be more related to things like uniqueness and quiet competence, so in that respect the XG, like the Subaru, was a good fit. Though in all honesty I did do the hippie bus thing for several years and it's hard to make a more pronounced statement with a vehicle than that
But to answer your question. The wind noise is present around the mirrors at high speed but it's not overly obnoxious. The engine noise is very well muffled. I couldn't figure out the tire noise for a while until I realized that about half the time the noise that I was tuning in on was from the vehicles next to me. My guess is that this is a combination of two factors, that the XG has fairly low tire noise, but that the isolation thru the windows isn't as good as it could be. The fact that my ears were being drawn to the tire noise on other vehicles says something, but I'm still trying to fine tune my hearing perceptions of the vehicle. The Avalon was more isolating than the XG and I read that they recently gave it thicker glass. Again in my opinion it's all about tradeoffs.
Finally a correction, I went and played with the windshield wipers again and realized that the The intermittent wipers at full speed are NOT about the same speed as the low setting, apparently I actually had it at the low setting when I made that observation. Sorry bout that
Hope this helps.
I stand corrected on the Sonata lights. My comment was based on something I read in the one of the older Sonata threads here. I test drove the Sonata and was pretty impressed. Reading these forums, along with the mostly pretty favorable reviews of the Sonata, helped me decide that Hyundai had crossed a quality/reliability threshhold. There are only two chimes (actually dings) that I have found so far on the XG300. Key in ignition door open, and seat belts.
taurus2:
Car manufacturing has become so intertwined these days that it's difficult to figure out who makes what. Hyundai used to use Mitsubishi engines but I've heard that the XG sigma engine is home grown. The manumatic transmission apparently comes from a German company.
dr18:
I know that the XG has shows 5 separate dash lights when the transmission is in manual mode, but other than that, for my untrained eye, it is very difficult to know which gear the transmission is in when driving it. It's very smoooooo th Here is a fair use exerpt from the Autoweb.com.au Australian review that was so critical of the suspension.
"An intelligent trans in that it picks the ratio on the basis of more than just speed and throttle position inputs, the Hyundai Integrated Vehicle Electronic Control (HIVEC) will downchange to provide engine braking when needed, and will hold gears rather than changing up when it senses that you're driving hard. And it's very, very good at it. In fact, with a lock-up clutch on both fourth and fifth gears (and maybe third as well - it's hard to identify all that's going on!), the trans at times appears to have seven ratios at its disposal. For example, when cruising at speed in fifth, the extra throttle required to climb a hill will firstly cause fifth's lock-up clutch to disenage and then, if the torque converter's multiplication isn't sufficient, a downchange to fourth will occur. And when you're over the hill, fourth will be kept for a long time - perhaps thirty or forty seconds - before HIVEC figures that, no, you're not about to need that grunt again, and the trans changes back to fifth. It's light years ahead of some prestige Europeans that we've recently driven..."
Perhaps Hyundai can provide us customers with answers I don't think most corporations have truely grocked how valuable open honest internet dialogue can be. How about it Hyundai? How about letting a few of your engineers and designers come out and talk with your customers? Let them come out and play
The XG300 also goes under the name XG30 and Grandeur. Also Hyundai finally updated their web site to include the XG. http://www.hyundaiusa.com/
The transmission indicator on the dash showing what gear you're in is nice...I don't think the Chrysler Autosticks even do that. It has PRND then 54321 next to it. And the lockup works in 4 and 5 at least huh? The Dynastys I had could lock up in third and fourth, the third you had to put the transmission in 3 to do it (of PRN@3L). Nice...I might go drive one of these sometime. IF they DON'T sell well, and end up like the Daewoo Leganza, I might be able to get one in a couple years as opposed to a decade from now.
On the newsstands this week there is a XG300 review in the December 5th edition of AMI AutoWeekly. Overall very positive. For positives they cite overall content, value, quality, transmission, and ride smoothness. For negatives, they mention mirror wind noise, tire noise on certain types of surfaces, and steering wheel kickback when hitting a pothole while turning (one of the suspension behaviors that I have so far been unable to duplicate, I must drive over non industry standard potholes).
http://autoweb.autospeed.com/A_0409/P_1/feature.html
I recently purchased a Sante Fe. I had it in the shop for an oil change, and they were out of loaner cars, so I got to drive the manager's XG300 for the day.
However, the interior design is great. I like this type of interior in a car...it looks a lot like my 97 Infiniti I30's interior (center stack). It comes with good features, leather, etc. It looks pretty good. BUT, its a Hyundai. Thats what is going to kill this vehicle. As somebody mentioned before, Hyundai would need to sell this car through a different nameplate in order to sell these cars. The US market is based on status symbols, and the nameplates Lexus, Acura and Infiniti deliver those status symbols. It puts you "higher" than a nissan, toyota or honda owner. But, thats just the way it is here! In japan, it is NOT like that (since the lexus, acura or infiniti name do not exist). The same applies for the Korean market. A Korean friend of mine told me that in Korea, the MAJORITY of the vehicles driving around are very small, economy vehicles. The Hyundai XG (Grandeur) and the top of the line Equus work well there because they're big, and offer luxury options and provide the status symbol. I feel the XG is a great car, but it will not work here under the Hyundai nameplate. It will be much like the Mazda Millenia and Mitsubishi Diamante cars...luxury cars sold under the parent name. It just seems that with 10-12 years of having Lexus, Infiniti and Acura names around this country, other luxury entries wont work. Anytime a new Lexus, Infiniti or Acura model comes out, they're pretty much "sold-out" and its hard to find a car. However, when I went to my Hyundai dealer, they were already marking their XG's down to get rid of them! They're 2001 models and already marking down...it doesnt look good. Oh, by the way, the XG300 in Korea comes with GPS, HID Xenon headlamps, and a wood/leather steering wheel. Check out the pictures, they're pretty nice:
http://www.hmc.co.kr/kor/cybermall/product/xg/gallery.htm
Some of the pictures show the HID lamps, some show the wood steering wheel and GPS.
One last note...Hyundai HAS to get rid of the "XG" rims on their cars.
I simply haven't been able to duplicate the suspension issues that were raised in the Australian review. I wonder how hard they pushed the vehicle. I know I haven't been in any James Bond type chase scenes over cobblestone pavement like they described in the review. I do know a couple of residential street speed bumps about 4 miles from my house that probably have sufficient height and angle of attack to launch the vehicle like they did in the review, but they aren't the norm in any city I've driven in.
Mostly I deal with potholes and sunken drainage grates and the XG300 handles them very well. the suspension has so far always been competent, albeit floaty, which I prefer. The only time that I didn't like the soft suspension was over a few types of rough interstate surfaces and in the turbulence of semi trucks while going 75 mph. Overall the XG300 gave me very pleasant trip to Florida.
Personally I don't need a "status" nameplate on my vehicle. I certainly don't want to pay extra for it. That's not to say that I don't want the attention. I'm quite happy driving a Hyundai and having it be confused with a Lincoln I did get a very definite thumbs up from a Acura driver in Florida who slowed down to check the XG300 out.
My Dad told me that the Michelan A-A-400 rated tires are 60,000 mile tires.
Re tire PSIG - I find the front tires of front wheel drive cars generally take significantly more air than the rears. Right now I'm running about 36 in the fronts but only 31.5 in the rear. Tried 33 in the rear but could feel it jumping around over sharp bumps like pavement expansion joints. Anything below 34 in the fronts makes the steering too sluggish in my opinion.
Mike 542, do you have a model for the Tokico shocks that fit the XG? Have not been able to find much info on suspension upgrades.
Will probably stay with 15 or 16 inch wheels, however, with Mid-West potholes being the major factor. (Hit one dead center on the morning commute today - the suspension just swallowed it up and the car kept on cruising. Might not have been so lucky with lower profile tires.)