BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

ben__ · February 2002

"I strongly believe that even if the car dealership sells you a car at invoice price, they still make some profit."

I don't mean to be rude or sound condescending, but that just isn't the case. If it were, the invoice price would be useless as a bargaining tool for a buyer.

When you discount items, you do it for volume customers. Very rarely does a customer buy BMWs in what you would call "bulk" quantities.

November is a good time to be buying a car. The new model-year is either about to start or has already started, so you can still buy a new car from the last model year (in this case, the 01 RX300) at a discount. This is sometimes subsidized by the manufacturer, sometimes not. But, if a dealer regularly made a habit of selling cars below what they paid for them, they would rapidly be out of business.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2001/lexus/rx300/4wd4drsuv30l6cyl4a/prices.html

There is currently a dealer holdback of $713. I bet it was even higher in November when Lexus was looking to move as many 01s as possible as quickly as possible.

hawkbert · February 2002

Ben and jack are both right. If you click on "What is dealer holdback" on that link, it gives holdbacks for various dealers. BMW has "no holdback", Lexus has 2%.

bouncingbob · February 2002

I presently own a 2001 Mercedes C320. What a mistake of a purchase! It has given me nothing but grief. A short list of problems include: failing "smart" keys, transmission problems, misaligned steering wheel, fog light with water in lens, not able to lock or unlock doors.

One more repair and it may be enough for the lemon law.

Has the BMW 330i and 330xi had these kinds of reliability problems? I would never buy a Mercedes product again. What a heap!

rjg96 · February 2002

The recent article in the Wall Street Journal was pretty damning of recent Mercedes quality. Judging from the most recent JD Power survey, BMW appears to be the best quality european make- and is better than almost every Honda, Toyota and some Lexuses. Take a look:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=3671

That being said, if you read forums here and elsewhere you'll quickly discover that all BMW models have there own problems. Some owners even have what you might call a "lemon" But, you'll find this on message boards for any car. Statistically, you're safer buying a BMW than Benz these days- but there's no guarantees that you won't get a rotten BMW! The 3 series has now been about for over 3 model years-- so all of the initial bugs have been worked out-- the C class is still in its firs model year and all European makes seem to have big problems with first year models. I alos think that you'll find the overall quality of build and materials higher in the BMW than the C class.

twoof1 · February 2002

I think you will find if you read through some of the 13,000 some odd post's here you will find VERY few post's regarding problem's people have with there E46 3 series cars. These are incredibly solid, well built and dependable cars.

Besides if you ditch the Benz, you can hang out here and enjoy all the wit and banter that get's exchanged daily!!
Where else can you learn about 3 series BMW's, Indian food, Single malt scotch, International travel etc.
That in itself is worth the price of admission!

Seriously, there are many BMW forums out there and this one has far and away the most mature, knowledgable and helpful bunch of people on it you will ever find.

Good luck, let us know what you decide.

ben__ · February 2002

"I strongly believe that even if the car dealership sells you a car at invoice price, they still make some profit."

I don't mean to be rude or sound condescending, but that just isn't the case. If it were, the invoice price would be useless as a bargaining tool for a buyer.

When you discount items, you do it for volume customers. Very rarely does a customer buy BMWs in what you would call "bulk" quantities.

November is a good time to be buying a car. The new model-year is either about to start or has already started, so you can still buy a new car from the last model year (in this case, the 01 RX300) at a discount. This is sometimes subsidized by the manufacturer, sometimes not. But, if a dealer regularly made a habit of selling cars below what they paid for them, they would rapidly be out of business.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2001/lexus/rx300/4wd4drsuv30l6cyl4a/prices.html

There is currently a dealer holdback of $713. I bet it was even higher in November when Lexus was looking to move as many 01s as possible as quickly as possible.

riez · February 2002

ben... Check out the latest issue of Roundel. In the Letters section there are two writers who chastise BMW for not better controlling their dealers and the prices they charge. Roundel lets BMW NA provide an "official response". One sentence caught my eye: "The relationship between BMW NA and BMW Centers is highly regulated under the law, especially under state law." Each state has its own laws. Most strongly favor dealers. Strong franchise law protection. Ever wonder why in some states you can't buy a car on Sunday? Why all the dealers keep the same hours? Why manufacturers have trouble disciplining dealers? Why manufacturers can't own their own dealerships? Or otherwise sell direct to public? Or sell over internet direct to buyers?

It really is a love-hate relationship between dealers and manufacturers. Dealers are one of the most powerful lobbies in most state legislatures. They have money, know how to lobby, and put their money where their interest is. Just ask your local legislator. I know mine quite well; worked on his campaign. Jerry knows all three of the local car dealer owners very, very well. One just bought a huge piece of land by interstate next to planned route for a major cross-state interstate expansion.

derprofi · February 2002

Just FYI, you've got a little problem there with multiple posts. Not sure if it's a technical glitch or what...

dl7265 · February 2002

to bad your compadres are to proud to admit that MB aint what it used to be sadly, and they over paid. Good news is you can get a very reliable 3er. I have a 1st year production and had none of the serious teething problems the "C" has, thank God,

good luck
DL

bmw323is · February 2002

Jarbar, I think I was the poster to discuss the 3M clear bra. I had it installed the day I bought my car. I don't think I would do it again on my next BMW. My car is jet black. I live in Colorado where it can snow nine months of the year (okay ten months). With all the little stones on the road (our road crews call it sand, but have obviously never been to a beach), cars around here get a lot of hood stone chips. On my black car the bra is somewhat visable, mostly the line across the hood. The shape of the hood on the E46 makes it difficult to install perfectly. Although I have seen them installed flawlessly, mine is not (I'm picky). On a white car you will not notice the bra as easily, nor will you see the chips. My car still gets stone chips on the hood above the bra and a lot on the front bumper.

Many window tint shops also install clear bra's. Yes, they can be removed from original paint without adverse affects (at least that is what they claim). They are normally guaranteed not to yellow. Mine cost $170 installed. I saw prices as high as $350. It's almost all labor. Many dealers around here now put them on all of their cars and add the terribly inflated price ($495!!) automatically to the cars sticker (no doubt the work of the poor mom and pop dealer just trying to buy shoes for their kids!).

Hope this information helped.

kchanus · February 2002

I have a 2001 330i and I noticed the passenger side's footwell has light when the door is open,, but I don't think I noticed any light in the driver's footwell. So, is there any footwell lighting on the driver's side? Thanks.

bing330i · February 2002

jhox 85:
Q: "Is 1% increase meant for the orders before the 1/1/02 or when the car was delivered to the dealer? "
A: New invoices became effective when the car left VPC to dealers on or after 1/1/02.

bouncingbob:
I feel your pain, being a traditional MBZ owner with my first BMW in 2002 after debating C or 3. I think your not-so-fortunate situation with your C320 has a lot to do with your car is in its first newly design model year when bugs have not been fully fixed yet. Though I have to say on average recent MBZs have not been that great compared with its solid history and its competitors. By contrast, 3ers are in its mid-age and thus more mature and well-debugged.

Ben: invoice is just a benchmark, not the final cost to a dealer. Though you can argue invoices are what dealers really pay for, a BMW dealer gets the "Added Value Bonus", based on "Best Practice" compliance, training requirement fulfillment, Customer Service Index (CSI) performance, and CPO sales performance, it also gets money from BMW for warranty repairs. I also disagree with you to title dealers as entreprenuers. They do not bring anything new but control a channel. As riez suggested, a dealer's power and profit come from its monopoly position. If you look at a car sale itself, what value does a dealer really add? That is why most people feel screwed from a dealer because a car out of its manufacturing plant is no difference from a car out of a dealer lot. But the tag rises from invoice (only if that is true cost!) to invoice plus destination plus ad fee plus doc fee plus dealer profits plus financing APR mark-up plus....... Capitalism is about competition where the fittest survives and makes the most. Nobody ought to stay in business just for the sake of being in a business. Money is earned, both for dealers (from cars) and car buyers (from elsewhere). It is such a fair game for a buyer to bargain as no dealer will sell a car by losing money.

ben__ · February 2002

Sorry about the multiple posts. Won't happen again.

bmw323is - The window tint shops don't pay their employees $18/hr or more, and the dealer will be more responsive if you have a problem later on with the quality of the work. That said, almost $500 is really high.

bing330i - The only difference between customer-pay repairs and warranty repairs is that warranty pays considerably less. Believe me, warranty repairs aren't a big profit center at a BMW service center.

I disagree that dealers don't add anything to car sales and service. On the service end, there are several advantages to buying from one dealer instead of another. The dealer I worked at would pick up your car and drop off a loaner, then return your car and take back the loaner when the service was complete (7-series owners only). This is routine practice at many Lexus dealers, for any model vehicle. That's an added service not required by the franchise agreement.

Even within BMW dealers, service differs. At my former employer, we had a fleet of 40+ loaners. Good luck finding another like that.

On the sales end, you may find that some dealers will perform certain extra services for you that another won't. For example, the X5 4.4i comes with a flashlight in the glove box, but the 3.0 does not. Some dealers will install the flashlight in the 3.0 free of charge, even though it still costs more than $100 to do the job at cost.

People must think that dealerships have meetings every morning to discuss new and innovative ways to screw the customer. In fact, the meetings usually take place Saturday night over a game of poker, while we smoke fine cigars stolen from customer vehicles. Instead of chairs, we sit on the backs of the proletariat! (Insert evil laugh here)

brave1heart · February 2002

How embarrassing for the Big Three - the only two cars in the Top 20 reliability list are Dodge Intrepid (14) and Chrysler LHS (16). Both of them are Chrysler products, i.e. only half-American now...

nyccarguy · February 2002

BMWNA owns 4 dealerships:

BMW of Manhattan
Westchester BMW

& 2 others

ccotenj · February 2002

generally speaking, i'll take the dealers side (i, for one, don't think they are out to take advantage of me), but i'm gonna call you on one here...

the reason the install of the flashlight is 100 dollars at "cost" is because even with internal jobs like that, the service department still charges "book rate". it's in all likelihood a 15 minute job that the book says is an hour. the biggest problem i have with the dealerships is not that they charge me 90 dollars an hour for service (which i can live with), but that they charge me for 4 hours of labor on a job that actually takes them an hour and a half... that's what has finally driven me to go to a local indie to have the "routine maintenance" done on my car...

i know this isn't unique to bmw. i'm just bringing it up because of your flashlight point.

most of your other points i agree with. keep up the good fight!

-Chris

hiddendragon · February 2002

Hi,

I am going to buy a new bmw 330i for the first time. But I am not sure that if I have to pay the whole amount of money at the time I order, then wait two or three months for its delivery? If I finance the car, then I have to pay the interests during the time?

I live in Washington DC area, anyone has experience for the dealership?

Thanks,

ccotenj · February 2002

you don't...

you pay for it when you take delivery of it... they may ask you for a deposit of some kind, which would (in all likelihood) be non-refundable if you backed out of the deal when the car arrived...

you need to go to the smart shopper area and find some links on "how to shop for a car" and "how car financing works"... it will save you getting taken advantage of... don't take this the wrong way, but you need to better educate yourself in the car buying process before you walk into a dealership...

good luck.

-Chris

hiddendragon · February 2002

Thanks Chris,

I have buying experience before and won't make mistake again...:) Btw, how much deposit ususally we pay?

ccotenj · February 2002

no problem... that wasn't a *shot* at you, fwiw...

deposits - no good answer there... depends on the dealership... depends on the salesman... depends on a lot of things...

-Chris

tenet1 · February 2002

Here in the DC area the deposit is $500. Though the dealers claim it is fully refundable, I am sure one will have to put up with a lot of headache to get it back. Bottomline: Order if serious only.

Take the advise from Chris. Be very educated about buying your Bimmer, it is a slightly different process

I had a good experience with BMW of Arlington.

riez · February 2002

nyccarguy... State laws vary on these and other important franchise-related issues. That is why dealers are well connected to state legislatures. NY state law varies from my state's laws.

Notice how much trouble GM is having killing off Olds? Guessing they are buying them out or doing something to sweeten pot to limit litigation. But they are phasing it out very, very slowly.

nohash1 · February 2002

I have been looking at this board for a while and started looking at eurobuyers.com and it shows a suggested retail price and a confidential wholesale price for european delivery. Which one do i use to get the to figure out the right pricing. Help would be appreciated.

modendahl · February 2002

"And then, of course, there is the fact that 9 out of 10 people through the door assume they're going to be screwed, so they're unfriendly to start with."

Now why do you think this is? Have car dealers ever done anything in the 100+ years of the car business to deserve this kind of trepidation from their customers? OK - well maybe they have. Have you ever watched the scene in the movie "Fargo" where the guy screws the customer for "undercoating"? This kind of crap is true more times than not and THAT is the thing that gives the car buying public hesitation in dealing with retailers (whether the front of the store or the back where you are).

Granted, dealers of high-line brands like BMW, M-B or Lexus have evolved to an extent over the last few years and are a bit better about this than the average Ford, GM, Toyota, etc dealer - but this mentality is still out there. In my recent buying experience, I saw the entire range of professionalism with BMW dealers in the area (Chicago-Milwaukee). Some did the old "cat and mouse" game while trying to hide the price/cost and some were very up-front. I ended up at the
dealership that was both the most honest and had the best price (not to mention the closest).

"Would you go into Mom and Pop's hardware store and bully them on the price of a power drill?"

You're damn right I would if they wanted $34K for the drill and their industry had a history of screwing people who bought drills!!!!!!

BTW - feel free to learn how to use a browser

530bmw · February 2002

wholesale price is what the dealer pays the car maker. Suggested retail price is what the dealer would like to get from you and more. Use the wholesale price to come up with your car configuration. Hope this help.

huntzinger · February 2002

the reason the install of the flashlight is 100 dollars at "cost" is because even with internal jobs like that, the service department still charges "book rate".

Reminds me of some pricing I did back in December:

Me: "what can you do for me on the Dealer Installed CD player?"

Sales: "$815. That's $575 for the hardware and 2 hours labor".

Me: "2 hours labor??"

Sales: "Yeah, well, you know they have to use this _installation kit_ and everything"

Me: "Funny - I'd think that an installation kit would make the job faster & easier, not slower..."

Sales: "..."

-hh

ben__ · February 2002

"Ben - dover"

Wow. I'm floored. I haven't heard this kind of creative jab since high school. I'm now thoroughly impressed with both your intellect and ability to construct logical, coherent arguments. The rest of your post now holds a great deal of weight in my mind. Thank you for making me aware of the incisive, interesting content to come. My hat goes off to you, sir.

"Have you ever watched the scene in the movie "Fargo" where the guy screws the customer for "undercoating"? This kind of crap is true more times than not and THAT is the thing that gives the car buying public hesitation in dealing with retailers (whether the front of the store or the back where you are)."

At first, with the Ben-Dover comment, I assumed you to be somewhere around 15 years old, but if you remember undercoating, you must be at least old enough to have bought a new car in the 80s. Then again, maybe its just something you saw once in a movie...

1johann · February 2002

Anyone deal with VOB or Tischer or Passport BMW in Maryland?

I'd be interested to hear if you have a favorite sales person or more importantly one to avoid.

What about follow-up service, availability of loaner cars, game playing etc. etc.

Thanks in advance.

J

tenet1 · February 2002

I met with all of them, but ended up getting the best service and deal at BMW of Arlington. Good servcie dept and get comprable or better bimmer at service if purchased with them.

Email me if you need contact details.

bing330i · February 2002

I feel sorry for you about the post 13125. We should never come to personal attacks. Folks, please stop that.

Back to the discusion: I only suggested that dealers don't add anything to car SALES. I did not suggest services. As you suggested, services are the differentiator among delears and that is where dealers recoup their costs and make really profits beyond warranties. Beyond the point that dealers massage service charges, the argument here is a dealer is charging a premium at the time of sale for services that a buyer may use or may not use, may use at the purchase dealer, but may use elsewhere in the future. That premium varies from dealer to dealer. That is what buyers argue about.

At an individual level, I am sure many car sales are nice people and ought to make a living. But I am not sure if they ought to or it is smart to make a living in the car business. Internet and competition have given buyers more knowledge=power than ever, I can only foresee it'll become a tougher business. Good luck.

hippo168 · February 2002

Has anyone been there? Do I have to make reservations? Or it is just for touring the manufacturing plant? I'd think you can go to the museum any time during their operating hours.

Is there an "official" BMW Museum website?

nyccarguy · February 2002

The Seinfeld episode when he tries to buy a car from Puddy with "the insider's deal" and Elaine breaks up with him in the middle of the deal and Puddy starts telling him about undercoating, special paint, protection package, extended warranty...and then Elaine gets back together with him and Jerry receives "the insider discount."

bing330i · February 2002

No reservation is needed, just 3 euros for entrance. I spent about 1.5 hours there. The museum is next to the BMW HQ and the 3er factory. It is the meeting point for the factory tour. Make sure to make reservations to the factory tour (free of charge and available in Mon and Fri afternoons only) and receive a confirmation.

nohash1 · February 2002

thanks 530bmw for the help

derprofi · February 2002

I had good luck with Joern Esser at Passport. He's their ED and Diplomatic Sales Manager. I've only had my car a month, so I can't comment on their service department. I plan to take my car to the new Sterling BMW anyway, since it's 5 minutes away from my house vs. 45 for Passport.

So did anyone ever hear more about the issue mentioned a few days ago re: ED cars possibly coming out of a dealer's allocation?

pat · February 2002

A major newspaper is looking to interview folks who learned how to drive stick in their adulthood, and either fell in love or hated it. Also welcome is any input on why people love to drive stick, and any unusual anecdotes about how you learned etc.

Hope to hear from you before Feb 22 via the Talk to the Press discussion or at jfallon@edmunds.com with your thoughts and contact information.

Thanks as always,

Jeannine Fallon
PR Director, Edmunds.com

allano · February 2002

Ben,
For the majority of those who post in this forum, I too apologize to you for post 13125. I have read your messages with interest, enjoyed the discussions they prompted and gained insight from them all. Please don't let one bad response dampen your replies.

Alan

tenet1 · February 2002

Would love to help, but fortunately I learned to drive stick when I was 12, so that disqualifies me. I did need a cushion under my bottom though.

modendahl · February 2002

You people need to lighten up. It's not like I called his mother a name or did anything along those lines.

He came in with a negative and insulting tone toward those on this board and got some of the same back. Judging by the well-reasoned responses that he got, I think it's been shown that he's incorrect. Everybody gets an opinion - but that doesn't make everybody right.

ubrsf · February 2002

anyone know?

dhanley · February 2002

Ha Ha. My dealer quoted me $1000 for installing the BMW CD changer.

After i picked my jaw up off the floor I said "oh, ok, i'll think about it."

I can get the changer for $250 online and install it in a few minutes... Jeez.

dave

pat · February 2002

Yep, everybody is entitled to their own opinions. And everybody is entitled to share their opinions on the Town Hall message boards as long as those opinions are expressed in compliance with the Membership Agreement.

Some recent posts are not in line with the portion of that agreement that reads: "...please engage in healthy, mature debate and not immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall."

Let's just talk about the vehicles and withhold the personal jabs.

Thanks.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

hgeyer · February 2002

Train system - $4.50 US, 45 minutes
Taxi - $25-$30 US, 25 minutes

gwunj · February 2002

After lurking on this board for the past 6 months or so, I've decided to make my first post about my first bimmer purchase in the next couple of months (I want, I want, I want!). Yes, there have been many discussions about leather vs. leatherette --how the feel and maintenance aren't worth the $$. I don't recall anyone mentioning the dreaded sweaty-back syndrome for those of us very warm-blooded folk? Wouldn't the leather, with its ability to breathe, fare better in that respect than the leatherette?

nobee · February 2002

So I'm hauling the mail down A3 going towards Frankfurt and all of a sudden I see this silver 5-series pull next to me and me in my "speed-racer" mode thinks that this guy wants to race...sweet; I push on the gas and blow this guy away. He tails me for awhile and then suddenly pulls in front of me and this is when I started to think to myself, "I'm toast.." This unmarked, silver, 5-series with sports and premium package pulls in front of me and retracts a digital sign that spells out "bitte something-or-other..." We pull into a rest-stop and he fines me 150 euros...at the same time he's issuing me a ticket, a German dude pulls up behind me, gets out of his car and proceed to urinate next to a picnic table-in full view of the polizei!

Lesson learned: Speed-limit sign: Slow down; No speed-limit sign: Haul balls; Need to pee: Pull pants, urinate all over the picnic table in full view of a Polizei
-nobee

mfeldman · February 2002

Message:

c32 was quick, but didn't feel that much faster than 330. I like the engine growl of the 330 better than the supercharger whistle. And at speed I like d my retrofit steering better. So I don't think I'll get it for now. If only I could fix the left right steering imbalance (lighter to left).

postoak · February 2002

Yes, we've delved into that issue more than once. From the comments I've read, I'm convinced the difference is real and noticeable. Furthermore, I'm also convinced that light leather is cooler than dark colored leather. When I order next month, I'll definitely be going with a light colored (gray) leather.

On a different subject:

I hang out occasionally on other BMW boards and I can truthfully say that the people here are easily the most civil, mature, and responsible -- usually. We need Brave1heart here to conduct one of our Friday afternoon group hugs!

raavir · February 2002

325i SP & PP --- CAD $46300
330i SP & HK --- CAD $49500

ewoq · February 2002

A year or two from now, will you wish you had purchased the 330i?

derprofi · February 2002

For a difference of only $3,200 Canadian (USD $2k) you'd better believe I would opt for the 330i over the 325i in a heartbeat.

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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