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I don't mean to be rude or sound condescending, but that just isn't the case. If it were, the invoice price would be useless as a bargaining tool for a buyer.
When you discount items, you do it for volume customers. Very rarely does a customer buy BMWs in what you would call "bulk" quantities.
November is a good time to be buying a car. The new model-year is either about to start or has already started, so you can still buy a new car from the last model year (in this case, the 01 RX300) at a discount. This is sometimes subsidized by the manufacturer, sometimes not. But, if a dealer regularly made a habit of selling cars below what they paid for them, they would rapidly be out of business.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2001/lexus/rx300/4wd4drsuv30l6cyl4a/prices.html
There is currently a dealer holdback of $713. I bet it was even higher in November when Lexus was looking to move as many 01s as possible as quickly as possible.
One more repair and it may be enough for the lemon law.
Has the BMW 330i and 330xi had these kinds of reliability problems? I would never buy a Mercedes product again. What a heap!
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=3671
That being said, if you read forums here and elsewhere you'll quickly discover that all BMW models have there own problems. Some owners even have what you might call a "lemon" But, you'll find this on message boards for any car. Statistically, you're safer buying a BMW than Benz these days- but there's no guarantees that you won't get a rotten BMW! The 3 series has now been about for over 3 model years-- so all of the initial bugs have been worked out-- the C class is still in its firs model year and all European makes seem to have big problems with first year models. I alos think that you'll find the overall quality of build and materials higher in the BMW than the C class.
Besides if you ditch the Benz, you can hang out here and enjoy all the wit and banter that get's exchanged daily!!
Where else can you learn about 3 series BMW's, Indian food, Single malt scotch, International travel etc.
That in itself is worth the price of admission!
Seriously, there are many BMW forums out there and this one has far and away the most mature, knowledgable and helpful bunch of people on it you will ever find.
Good luck, let us know what you decide.
I don't mean to be rude or sound condescending, but that just isn't the case. If it were, the invoice price would be useless as a bargaining tool for a buyer.
When you discount items, you do it for volume customers. Very rarely does a customer buy BMWs in what you would call "bulk" quantities.
November is a good time to be buying a car. The new model-year is either about to start or has already started, so you can still buy a new car from the last model year (in this case, the 01 RX300) at a discount. This is sometimes subsidized by the manufacturer, sometimes not. But, if a dealer regularly made a habit of selling cars below what they paid for them, they would rapidly be out of business.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2001/lexus/rx300/4wd4drsuv30l6cyl4a/prices.html
There is currently a dealer holdback of $713. I bet it was even higher in November when Lexus was looking to move as many 01s as possible as quickly as possible.
It really is a love-hate relationship between dealers and manufacturers. Dealers are one of the most powerful lobbies in most state legislatures. They have money, know how to lobby, and put their money where their interest is. Just ask your local legislator. I know mine quite well; worked on his campaign. Jerry knows all three of the local car dealer owners very, very well. One just bought a huge piece of land by interstate next to planned route for a major cross-state interstate expansion.
good luck
DL
Many window tint shops also install clear bra's. Yes, they can be removed from original paint without adverse affects (at least that is what they claim). They are normally guaranteed not to yellow. Mine cost $170 installed. I saw prices as high as $350. It's almost all labor. Many dealers around here now put them on all of their cars and add the terribly inflated price ($495!!) automatically to the cars sticker (no doubt the work of the poor mom and pop dealer just trying to buy shoes for their kids!).
Hope this information helped.
Q: "Is 1% increase meant for the orders before the 1/1/02 or when the car was delivered to the dealer? "
A: New invoices became effective when the car left VPC to dealers on or after 1/1/02.
bouncingbob:
I feel your pain, being a traditional MBZ owner with my first BMW in 2002 after debating C or 3. I think your not-so-fortunate situation with your C320 has a lot to do with your car is in its first newly design model year when bugs have not been fully fixed yet. Though I have to say on average recent MBZs have not been that great compared with its solid history and its competitors. By contrast, 3ers are in its mid-age and thus more mature and well-debugged.
Ben: invoice is just a benchmark, not the final cost to a dealer. Though you can argue invoices are what dealers really pay for, a BMW dealer gets the "Added Value Bonus", based on "Best Practice" compliance, training requirement fulfillment, Customer Service Index (CSI) performance, and CPO sales performance, it also gets money from BMW for warranty repairs. I also disagree with you to title dealers as entreprenuers. They do not bring anything new but control a channel. As riez suggested, a dealer's power and profit come from its monopoly position. If you look at a car sale itself, what value does a dealer really add? That is why most people feel screwed from a dealer because a car out of its manufacturing plant is no difference from a car out of a dealer lot. But the tag rises from invoice (only if that is true cost!) to invoice plus destination plus ad fee plus doc fee plus dealer profits plus financing APR mark-up plus....... Capitalism is about competition where the fittest survives and makes the most. Nobody ought to stay in business just for the sake of being in a business. Money is earned, both for dealers (from cars) and car buyers (from elsewhere). It is such a fair game for a buyer to bargain as no dealer will sell a car by losing money.
bmw323is - The window tint shops don't pay their employees $18/hr or more, and the dealer will be more responsive if you have a problem later on with the quality of the work. That said, almost $500 is really high.
bing330i - The only difference between customer-pay repairs and warranty repairs is that warranty pays considerably less. Believe me, warranty repairs aren't a big profit center at a BMW service center.
I disagree that dealers don't add anything to car sales and service. On the service end, there are several advantages to buying from one dealer instead of another. The dealer I worked at would pick up your car and drop off a loaner, then return your car and take back the loaner when the service was complete (7-series owners only). This is routine practice at many Lexus dealers, for any model vehicle. That's an added service not required by the franchise agreement.
Even within BMW dealers, service differs. At my former employer, we had a fleet of 40+ loaners. Good luck finding another like that.
On the sales end, you may find that some dealers will perform certain extra services for you that another won't. For example, the X5 4.4i comes with a flashlight in the glove box, but the 3.0 does not. Some dealers will install the flashlight in the 3.0 free of charge, even though it still costs more than $100 to do the job at cost.
People must think that dealerships have meetings every morning to discuss new and innovative ways to screw the customer. In fact, the meetings usually take place Saturday night over a game of poker, while we smoke fine cigars stolen from customer vehicles. Instead of chairs, we sit on the backs of the proletariat! (Insert evil laugh here)
BMW of Manhattan
Westchester BMW
& 2 others
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
the reason the install of the flashlight is 100 dollars at "cost" is because even with internal jobs like that, the service department still charges "book rate". it's in all likelihood a 15 minute job that the book says is an hour. the biggest problem i have with the dealerships is not that they charge me 90 dollars an hour for service (which i can live with), but that they charge me for 4 hours of labor on a job that actually takes them an hour and a half... that's what has finally driven me to go to a local indie to have the "routine maintenance" done on my car...
i know this isn't unique to bmw. i'm just bringing it up because of your flashlight point.
most of your other points i agree with. keep up the good fight!
-Chris
I am going to buy a new bmw 330i for the first time. But I am not sure that if I have to pay the whole amount of money at the time I order, then wait two or three months for its delivery? If I finance the car, then I have to pay the interests during the time?
I live in Washington DC area, anyone has experience for the dealership?
Thanks,
you pay for it when you take delivery of it... they may ask you for a deposit of some kind, which would (in all likelihood) be non-refundable if you backed out of the deal when the car arrived...
you need to go to the smart shopper area and find some links on "how to shop for a car" and "how car financing works"... it will save you getting taken advantage of... don't take this the wrong way, but you need to better educate yourself in the car buying process before you walk into a dealership...
good luck.
-Chris
I have buying experience before and won't make mistake again...:) Btw, how much deposit ususally we pay?
deposits - no good answer there... depends on the dealership... depends on the salesman... depends on a lot of things...
-Chris
Take the advise from Chris. Be very educated about buying your Bimmer, it is a slightly different process
I had a good experience with BMW of Arlington.
Notice how much trouble GM is having killing off Olds? Guessing they are buying them out or doing something to sweeten pot to limit litigation. But they are phasing it out very, very slowly.
Now why do you think this is? Have car dealers ever done anything in the 100+ years of the car business to deserve this kind of trepidation from their customers? OK - well maybe they have. Have you ever watched the scene in the movie "Fargo" where the guy screws the customer for "undercoating"? This kind of crap is true more times than not and THAT is the thing that gives the car buying public hesitation in dealing with retailers (whether the front of the store or the back where you are).
Granted, dealers of high-line brands like BMW, M-B or Lexus have evolved to an extent over the last few years and are a bit better about this than the average Ford, GM, Toyota, etc dealer - but this mentality is still out there. In my recent buying experience, I saw the entire range of professionalism with BMW dealers in the area (Chicago-Milwaukee). Some did the old "cat and mouse" game while trying to hide the price/cost and some were very up-front. I ended up at the
dealership that was both the most honest and had the best price (not to mention the closest).
"Would you go into Mom and Pop's hardware store and bully them on the price of a power drill?"
You're damn right I would if they wanted $34K for the drill and their industry had a history of screwing people who bought drills!!!!!!
BTW - feel free to learn how to use a browser
Reminds me of some pricing I did back in December:
Me: "what can you do for me on the Dealer Installed CD player?"
Sales: "$815. That's $575 for the hardware and 2 hours labor".
Me: "2 hours labor??"
Sales: "Yeah, well, you know they have to use this _installation kit_ and everything"
Me: "Funny - I'd think that an installation kit would make the job faster & easier, not slower..."
Sales: "..."
-hh
Wow. I'm floored. I haven't heard this kind of creative jab since high school. I'm now thoroughly impressed with both your intellect and ability to construct logical, coherent arguments. The rest of your post now holds a great deal of weight in my mind. Thank you for making me aware of the incisive, interesting content to come. My hat goes off to you, sir.
"Have you ever watched the scene in the movie "Fargo" where the guy screws the customer for "undercoating"? This kind of crap is true more times than not and THAT is the thing that gives the car buying public hesitation in dealing with retailers (whether the front of the store or the back where you are)."
At first, with the Ben-Dover comment, I assumed you to be somewhere around 15 years old, but if you remember undercoating, you must be at least old enough to have bought a new car in the 80s. Then again, maybe its just something you saw once in a movie...
I'd be interested to hear if you have a favorite sales person or more importantly one to avoid.
What about follow-up service, availability of loaner cars, game playing etc. etc.
Thanks in advance.
J
Email me if you need contact details.
Back to the discusion: I only suggested that dealers don't add anything to car SALES. I did not suggest services. As you suggested, services are the differentiator among delears and that is where dealers recoup their costs and make really profits beyond warranties. Beyond the point that dealers massage service charges, the argument here is a dealer is charging a premium at the time of sale for services that a buyer may use or may not use, may use at the purchase dealer, but may use elsewhere in the future. That premium varies from dealer to dealer. That is what buyers argue about.
At an individual level, I am sure many car sales are nice people and ought to make a living. But I am not sure if they ought to or it is smart to make a living in the car business. Internet and competition have given buyers more knowledge=power than ever, I can only foresee it'll become a tougher business. Good luck.
Is there an "official" BMW Museum website?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
So did anyone ever hear more about the issue mentioned a few days ago re: ED cars possibly coming out of a dealer's allocation?
Hope to hear from you before Feb 22 via the Talk to the Press discussion or at jfallon@edmunds.com with your thoughts and contact information.
Thanks as always,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director, Edmunds.com
For the majority of those who post in this forum, I too apologize to you for post 13125. I have read your messages with interest, enjoyed the discussions they prompted and gained insight from them all. Please don't let one bad response dampen your replies.
Alan
He came in with a negative and insulting tone toward those on this board and got some of the same back. Judging by the well-reasoned responses that he got, I think it's been shown that he's incorrect. Everybody gets an opinion - but that doesn't make everybody right.
After i picked my jaw up off the floor I said "oh, ok, i'll think about it."
I can get the changer for $250 online and install it in a few minutes... Jeez.
dave
Some recent posts are not in line with the portion of that agreement that reads: "...please engage in healthy, mature debate and not immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall."
Let's just talk about the vehicles and withhold the personal jabs.
Thanks.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Taxi - $25-$30 US, 25 minutes
Lesson learned: Speed-limit sign: Slow down; No speed-limit sign: Haul balls; Need to pee: Pull pants, urinate all over the picnic table in full view of a Polizei
-nobee
c32 was quick, but didn't feel that much faster than 330. I like the engine growl of the 330 better than the supercharger whistle. And at speed I like d my retrofit steering better. So I don't think I'll get it for now. If only I could fix the left right steering imbalance (lighter to left).
On a different subject:
I hang out occasionally on other BMW boards and I can truthfully say that the people here are easily the most civil, mature, and responsible -- usually. We need Brave1heart here to conduct one of our Friday afternoon group hugs!
330i SP & HK --- CAD $49500