Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Maybe manufacturers ought to skinny down the size and boost performance with turbos and superchargers. But that has it's own set of isses.
BMW does it with an I-6, Audi does it with a 5 valve per cylinder V6 & Turbo 4, Mercedes-Benz does it with a 3 valve per cylinder V6 (although I read their switching back to 4 valve in the next few years)...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I have to say that HP is not everything, but it is something. Additional HP means smoother and more effortless acceleration at any level whether you intend to go 0-60 in 6 seconds or 12. I am in the market for a new BMW, but I am seriously considering waiting another year since the 2003 is virtually unchanged. There is nothing wrong with the current 330, but the car does not exist in a vacuum. The entire market segment has shifted with the '03 model year and BMW cannot ignore this (and I am sure that they have not). Look at what happened to the 318--for those who own one, it may still bring satisfaction, but no owner of an E46 330 would be able to stand that car for more than about 10 minutes.
Does anyone speculate about a mid year change?
Will the 330 ever get a 6speed manual? The G35 raises the bar -- the coupe will have 275HP and a 6 speed.
What will 2004 hold?
Should I wait or should I just pull the trigger and get an '03 330? All opinions welcome.
That said, I agree 100% that a little more HP makes acceleration more effortless at all speeds and in all situations. This is especially true for those of us with automatic, who drive in hilly terrain. It might make the difference between a downshift or a smoother acceleration. That's the great thing about my Maxima (190HP but gobs of low end torque). It will hold a gear on a hill like nobody's business, and feels REALLY strong below 3,000 RPM. Of course, some of this is the rather sluggish transmission, but the car can get away with it without bogging down on hills like most cars w/slow automatics.
If I were you, and I was ready for a car, (and I could afford a 330 - you lucky dog!), I'd just pull the trigger and get the 2003 330i. If you lease for 3 years, you can replace it with the new model when it comes out. Also, you always get a worse deal on a brand new model, and no first year model, on average, even a Toyota or Honda, is as reliable as the second or third years, and so on. I've read documented evidence of that.
As far as affording it--I would not say that. I think that it is a matter of priorities mostly. We each spend our money as we see fit and I have only two priorities: house and car (kids and wife are constants and so I do not count them). I probably should be buying stock given the low prices, but I just have different priorities.
When will the E46 change? I thought 2005 as well, but I wonder sometimes if 2004 will be the year given such a paradigm shift in the market.
An additional consideration--look at the stiff new rule that California just imposed for the year 2009 or something like that that says that car emissions will be regulated like all other green house gas emissions--We may find that we will all be driving 900cc BMWs that get 75mph and go 0-60 in 24 seconds soon. Is it time to buy now and get the muscle car out of your blood before they are taken away completely?? It will happen soon.
Opinions welcome.
First they need the GP1 racebike though. Ah, dreams.
-Colin
I understand you're looking at broad trends. All I meant to show with my post is that a move to bigger engines is not ~necessarily~ more harmful to the environment. I don't know why I'm using Lexus as an example again, but anyways, a GS430 with a 4.3 liter V8 only gets two worse highway mpg (same city) as a 3.0 liter I6 GS300, while giving off less emissions (ULEV instead of LEV). I'm just trying to point out that bigger is not necessarily ~worse~ or necessarily a ~harmful trend~.
Mike
As far as great changes in the engine displacement, I think we will have to wait and see what is done with the 2003 5er. Currently, the 3er has the following engines: 1.6L (4-cyl), 1.8L (4-cyl), 2.0L (4-cyl), 2.5L (6-cyl), 3.0L ( 6-cyl), 3.2L (6-cyl, M3&M3 CSL), 4.0L (V8, M3 GTR). I could see BMW going to 3.0L and 3.2L(maybe 3.5L if it does not undercut the M3) for the 3er. I can realistically see a 6-speed in the 330i for 2003.5 only because the Z4 3.0L will have a six-speed. But I really think as far as engines go, we will need to wait for the 5er. The current 535i, has a 3.5L engine with 245 BHP this is not much more than the 330i 3.0L engine with 231 BHP.
You'll notice that most automotive test reports will discuss maximum performance figures with TC and SC systems turned off.
Just read the recent press raves over cars like the Acura 3.2CL Type S 6-speed manual with LSD. Transforms the car's performance.
TC and SC systems cost money. So does LSD. Most buyers don't understand the critical differences between the two. Many wrongly think TC and SC systems can replace LSD. They don't, since they do completely different things. But buyers think TC and SC are more modern. Must be better than old, inferior LSD. So if a company wants to save money and not alienate buyers, eliminating LSD is the best of both worlds. Foolish buyers think their TC and SC systems completely replaced it. And the manufacturer doesn't have to spend the money on LSD.
But notice that BMW wisely keeps LSD for the M3 and M5. A true high performance sedan or coupe has to have it. And BMW knows it! But the average 3 or 5 Series or 7 Series buyer won't even know what they are missing. They'll go ape for the alphabet soup TC and SC systems. Too bad. In past, going back many decades, you usually could get LSD as either standard or optional equipment on most BMWs. BMW's decision to drop LSD in most models reflects move away from performance toward luxury and as pure cost cutting in a market that can't figure out what is truly beneficial to performance. Sad.
That is not true. Bigger engines contribute more carbon dioxide to than smaller engines period. Even though the other NOx emmisions may be lower. Carbon dioxide is a contributor to global warming. 2 miles per gallons over millions of vehicles and their associated contributions make a significant difference. Again, I'm not an environmental wacko, but to dismiss or poo-poo the trend as not relavent in the aggregate is an incorrect view.
Why would BMW put an LSD in vehicles such as M3 and M5, that can do 0-60 and run rings around 98% of the cars anyway. To me it's not a cost saving measure because for $70gs people will fork over another $300 to outfit your M5 with it. My guess is they wisely decided the complexity of offering it vs the incremental performance benefit wasn't there. Doesn't seem right for a car company not to soak you for more money with additional options, if they can.
BMW has to put LSD in cars like M3 and M5. Performance enthusiasts would rebel at a car that lacked such an important performance enhancing device. But BMW saves a bit of money by just going with ABS, TC, and SC in the other 3, 5, and 7 Series vehicles. And these buyers haven't figured out what they are missing.
Look at how many of today's BMW buyers pass on the Sport Package or buy an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission. In USA BMW is perceived as a high quality luxury marque that has performance capabilities. Value of LSD is lost luxury buyers let alone on a non-Sport automatic transmission 325i or 525i.
I smooth, slick, short throw 5-speed is all a BMW needs. Just make it right, just make it even better. How about shortening the throw, a la S2000 or Miata range?
You should check out all the ads for LSDs. Everyone from Dinan to Quaife and a zillion others all have LSDs for BMWs. There is a huge demand for this performance product. Can't imagine anyone seriously upgrading their new or old BMW without first ensuring it has LSD! Serious person knows better.
And check out all the articles in general automotive press (R&T, C&D, MT, AW) and BMW-related press (Roundel, Bimmer, European Sports Car) that extol the clear virtues and benefits of LSD.
Lack of LSD is the one biggest gripe I have about my 540i6. A huge deliberate cost-cutting oversight on BMW's part. And probably an attempt to ensure that M5 owners believe they are getting all they can for their extra $15,000-$20,000.
I humbly submit that a limited slip differential's importance depends largely on 3 factors:
1) vehicle use
2) wheels driven
3) horsepower & torque
A RWD sedan with reasonable power--by today's standards; outstanding power not so many years ago-- may not need an LSD because of its use. (did anyone read my Z3 vs. 3er post?) It's OK to smoke tire a little, or to have traction control cut it abruptly, if you're using it for touring and mundane (but enjoyable) transportation. when you are using it for motorsport, the lack of a limited slip differential is HUGE. or even just driving a little hard.
Your example earlier about FWD sedans needing them isn't because it's a "Type S", it's because they are FWD. Putting all the power down to just one wheel AND expecting that wheel to do some cornering too just isn't going to work. Sadly, the days are long gone when no sensible person would purchase a FWD vehicle with sporty intent, but I believe that's a whole 'nother topic. And Chris probably remembers me discussing it at length in technical minutia in those topics... ;-)
-Colin
By the way, while my car has 14 less horsepower, it has 6 more lb-ft of torque and weighs 100 pounds less.
Get a 2003 and enjoy it!
Whether rightly or wrongly, I note that 0-60 times are probably the most important stat, in that consumers and car mags/reviewers pay attention to when comparing cars. I've noticed that most if not all manuals (including the other cars with 6 speeds mentioned above) have gearings that just get past 60mph at the end of 2nd gear near or at redline. (If someone doubts me, just browse through some car specs in a brochure or magazine.) What this means is only one shift is needed to do 0-60, which is important because even a semi-pro can only shift as fast as 0.1-0.2 secs. So the less shifts, the less time is added to the 0-60 run, which is good because the engineers want to optimize this time. Another shift to get to 60mph will only add 0.1-0.2 secs more. The remaining 3rd to 5th or 6th gears then gets spaced out accordingly to achieve whatever top speed and highway mileage figures they have in mind.
My parting question then, to those who want 6 speeds: why stop at 6? Why not get 7 or 10 speeds instead? A tractor-trailer truck has that many, but more does not necessarily mean better or faster.
I'll try these tonight. Unfortunately, the photo-clerk decided not to convert my photo of the instrument panel when I'm going 134 MPH -- probably because it is a fuzzy picture -- so I have to wait until tonight to get it.
2) lol colin... yea, i remember... i wish you had made it over to my current fwd v. rwd topic where i had one person INSISTING that because you were turning the drive wheels it would turn better... also, thanks for injecting a little sense into the LSD discussion... i'm gonna take a wild guess that the majority of the posters on this board (you and me and a few others excluded) couldn't tell the difference between a lsd equipped car and a non-equipped one...
yes, riez, they all have it, but i wouldn't call it a HUGE demand, there is SOME demand... they have a billion other "performance products" too... if you've got that big a gripe about it, put one in, for crying out loud, call up zionsville, get a used one, and have a mechanic put it in... that being said, this statement:
"Can't imagine anyone seriously upgrading their new or old BMW without first ensuring it has LSD! Serious person knows better."
wouldn't be true... serious person knows that suspension and tire upgrades are gonna buy them a heckuva lot more...
ok, everyone, be honest (you stay outta this colin, i KNOW how you drive... )... how many times do you actually light up the traction control light on your dash? i'm willing to bet not very often...
-Chris
Do you guys think I should be more aggressive or just wait for the 2003 model? I'm afraid I'll be taking a chance not knowing the price increase for the MY 2003.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I don't have traction control but my LSD is working quite well. There's nothing better than smelling the stink of new tires when you sidestep the clutch at 5k rpm and crank the wheel hard right... A few brief moments of wheelspin, sideways drama and then and you're GONE.
:-D
by and large I baby my M3 though, don't get me wrong.
-Colin
1. As for the key memory, I think it works like this:
2. Set your settings on your buttons on the side first (I'll assume one for you and one for your spouse).
3. Lock your door with your key.
4. Unlock your door with your key.
5. Press the setting you want (the button on the side you wanted for your settings).
I believe the key memory only remembers the settings that you last used with that key. So if you set your memory on your seat first, then set it the way you want, it should work.
Keep in mind, I don't have power seats. Most of this info I gathered from old posts.
Congrats on your xi. You'll love it.
-Paul
http://community.webshots.com/user/skimblz_
Thanks
J
Almost always happens on this 90o corner in which I am accelerating from standing.
It actually surprised me at the beginning how often the system would come in. I guess, being my first RWD, and powerful as it is, I should have expected this behavior.
I need to try driving in an empty parking lot w/o the DSC to really get a fill of how many times it has actually save my but, or does it interferes to early, sooner than what you really need it to? Is it to conservative in its threshold?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Nevertheless, if you are a conservative guy, obsess with safety, by no means, get the 4wd, that way, your mind will be happy and you will be able to sleep better at night.
Bottom line:
If the car was for me, I'll get the 330.
If the car is for a loved one, I'll get the 325 4WD (or better yet, a hummer, 0-60 in 4min flat or is it infinity, ugly monster, who cares if it gets scratch, who cares if it crashes?, and if you do, you would not be going very fast anyway
for those who are more skilled, it's probably conservative, but then again, those who are that skilled rarely will actually drive to those x/10ths on the street, they save it for the track...
-Chris
ps. wanna really have a lot of fun? if you ever get an early snowstorm where you are, go out in a big parking lot and turn the dsc off with your summer tires on... woo-hoo!
that was just a brief impression though and I didn't have a chance to autocross the car; I'm curious what it would've done there.
-Colin
Now i am hoping they don't make a mess in my cars interior or someone at bmw is going to get the full load of my wrath. There was some grease on the visor because it broke and got dragged on the rail, i have tan interrior and it looks awful! Hope those people clean that up too. Well, that is it of my whinning!
i'm shocked they've taken that much *bite* out of the car... i mean, i'm FAR from the most aggressive driver in the world, but i do make the car work pretty regularly, and i don't hit the "i'm taking control now" zone that often... mine seems to let me venture into the "fun" zone, but seems to know when i need "parental supervision", so to speak...
of course, it's always possible that i'm not trying hard enough... the other thing that is possible is that i've subconsciously learned the limits of how far i can enter into the fun zone before i get my hand slapped...
-Chris
I can actually light the traction control at least once a day. It is also the same spot that would place my truck in a serious understeer situation(A left hand turn to an on ramp from a standing light. I believe that chemicals are the culprit at this spot).
NycCarGuy:
I don't think BMW would do it. I think it has to with the whole package of buying a Z car or M car. The Z cars and some of the M cars have the LSD and the M3 has the variable differential lock(VDL). Like some have said on this thread, your average yuppie Bimmer driver would not the difference between DSC and LSD/VDL. The M cars are performance cars (Manual tran, high revving tuned engine, better suspension and exhaust.) If a regular 3er driver wants a more sportier car. They can 1)Buy a M car, 2)Get their car tuned through an aftermarket company like Hamann or Alpina or 3)Make it a long term tuner project. I don't think that BMW would compromise their M cars for the sake of adding more performance to their 3er or 5er. I guess one could add up the costs of buying a base model car & modify vs. buying the factory tuned car. You can beat the factory performance car with a tuned car but it may cost you more. If you must have the LSD, there is probably some tuner that can do it.
Water would necessarily light up the controls. Fast jerky movements can. If you want to try this, get a vacant lot. From a standing stop, have the wheels turned, then gun it. If the wheels are sharply turned before you hit the accelerator, you car should go slow until you straighten out the wheels. I learned about this at the ultimate drive experience. Ultimately, I am trying to become a better drive, so I don't want to see the DSC/CBC light up. I have taken 180 degree exit ramps while squealing the tires and not seeing the lights come on. I don't know if I'd try it with the DSC turned off. It is kind of an insurance policy, but then again I have done it with Mustangs and no traction control.
I agree w/riez. LSD is an important performance enhancement (I wouldn't call it "huge", otherwise we'd be reading about it in C&D all the time, and BMW would include it on the 330i).
That said, TC and SC are far more important in most driving circumstances typically encountered. I read the article on the Acura CL. I'll bet 95% of buyers won't be able to tell the difference. Why? Because you have to drive the a car pretty hard, and have a pretty keen feel and plenty of experience to detect the limitations of a FWD car as good as the CL Type S. That accounts for very few of us in the real world.
It is correct that best performance numbers are always achieved with the DSC and TC turned off. But, again, in the real world, how stupid would you feel if you turned off your DCS to get the MOST out of your car, and then wrapped it around a tree because you don't have the experience or skill to control it at the edge?
IMHO, DCS and TC are not just for wimps, but are for those of us who want to drive our cars hard enough to have fun (which in most cases does not necessitate LSD), with the security of knowing the DCS will step in and rescue us if we get a little too exuberant. It also helps alot in the snow, but that's a whole other debate.
DCS is a feature that I am really glad is standard on the 325i.
1. First choice: 330i - Soooo much car. Best engine in a sport sedan in the world (note: the real world, not the M3 world).
2. Second choice: 325i (no X), loaded with every option.
3. Last choice: 325xi
I am not a big fan of the xi. I test drove one because it was the only 325 on the lot one night. I have had Subarus, and I think you can do better in the AWD department than w/BMW. It adds noticeable weight to the car, and makes the car more sluggish at low RMP. That was my impression of the 325xi w/step (I presume the performance penalty is not as great w/manual). I found the 325i w/step to be lively, and the xi to be much less so at low speeds. Its also more in-motion technology to maintain.
You don't need AWD in the rain, and w/allseason or winter tires, you won't need it in a BMW in the snow.
Again, just my opinion. Use the AWD money for things you use every day, like more luxury/convenience features or more HP.
The DSC is another safety feature. You may of course disable it, but it's nice knowing it's looking out for me, even when I'm not. The only real practical use for LSD is straight line illegal street racing. In my neck of the woods, I find it hard to get above 30 at times, much less at speeds to feel the thrill of the edge.
You can experience it rounding your basic 90 degree intersection! In the rain even moreso, but on dry tarmac just the same.
-Colin
As Mr. Riez has pointed out, BMW at some point quietly removed the LSD from the option list. I think the sports package option would be a good place for BMW to fix this problem. IMHO you don't have an ultimate driving machine without an LSD. I almost can't believe it isn't standard equipment on the 330CI.
I believe, at least for the early E36, that BMW may have made the LSD available for improved traction in messy weather rather than for any performance benefit. As an example, my 1993 325i is optioned with the LSD, as part of the "inclement weather package" (which also includes heated seats, mirrors, etc.). I don't believe the LSD was offered as a separate option, at least on the sedans.
My car was built before any type of stability/traction control was available. In lieu of traction control (which didn't become available until '97, IIRC), a LSD was a logical choice to help improve traction on ice and snow.
Eric