BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

shipo · May 2004

Dude! You rock!

Unless I'm missing something, you had the hottest 3-Series on street tires out there that day (not counting M3s).

So, is it true that only four M3s in "BS" beat your average, only one M3 in "CS" beat your average and only one Z4 2.5i in "DS" beat your average?

Said another way did you beat the following folks?

15 of 19 in B-Street (mostly M3s)
6 of 7 in C-Street (M3s, 330Ci and Cooper Ss)
11 of 12 in D-Street (Z3s, Z4s, Coopers, 330s and the like)
First of 12 in E-Street (lots of fairly stock BMW stuff)

Wow, I'm truly impressed. I'll see if I can make it out to cheer you on this Saturday. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx · May 2004

But, I know all 3-series come with at least V-rated tires stock. I know the sport package comes with Z-rated.

regards,
kyfdx

shipo · May 2004

The flip side of that is that my 530i came with "Y" rated tires and a speed limiter of 128. :-/

Regarding the BMWs with the higher limiter, BMW's web site is unspecific as to the speed rating of the all-season tires mounted on the non-SP cars. That said, according to the TireRack.com web site, there are three different All-Season tires that fit the new E60 530i and have a speed rating of 149 or better. The three are:

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S ("W" rating)
Bridgestone Potenza RE92 ("V" rating)
Goodyear Eagle RS-A (both "V" and "W" ratings)

Best Regards,
Shipo

brave1heart · May 2004

I think you're right. I had a very good day. I teamed up with a good friend of mine who is in the same class and we were riding in each other's car through all the runs. The advice and help we get from each other offset the added weight in the car. My friend placed 4-th in our class and beat a lot of drivers that he couldn't touch last year.

div2 · May 2004

Congratulations! It's an added treat when you put some of those "horsepower is everything" know-it-alls in their place...;)

krsipykreme · May 2004

additional questions with regards to your response:

1. You say: Never overrev the engine. Do you mean to say do not go beyond the redline?
2. what do you mean when you say "Never lug the engine"

Pardon my ingnorance on these things.

jaguar0027 · May 2004

Hey Guys,

I have a 2001 325 Ci with about 51,000 miles on it with the stock Michelin MXV4 Plus tires on it. They have held up pretty well but it's definitely time for a replacement set of tires.

My question is, what you you recommend for replacement tires? Or should I just go with the OEM Mics? The two things that I would like to improve upon with these tires is a bit better snow traction, and a lil better road noise (e.g. a bit quieter).

Any help and thoughts are greatly apprecated.

Thanks in advance.

kyfdx · May 2004

I'm assuming you have the stock 16" tires..

Price: Continental ContiExtremeContact.

All around best: Michelin Pilot Sport A/S.

For noise, soft ride, good all around traction:
Bridgestone Turanza LS-V.

If you aren't a real aggressive driver and are more concerned with winter traction and good ride, low noise, and long tread life, I'd pick the Turanzas.

regards,
kyfdx

riez · May 2004

krispycreme... Two examples:

- Overreving: When driving at 65 mph, don't downshift from 5th to 2nd or 1st. (If you do, watch what happens to the tach.)

- Lugging: Don't start your car in 4th or 5th gear, or try to slowyly creep up a steep hill in 4th or 5th gear.

krsipykreme · May 2004

Thanks so much riez for the help. This board has been a lot of help.

alibajalajaula · May 2004

"The top speed issue is largely academic in the U.S. No 3-series (M including) can reach its top speed on any of the 4 tracks that I've driven (WGI, LRP, M-T and NHIS)."
Hey dude, where are these tracks? How much it costs to get to run your car in a track like these? You know of any one the lone star state, aside from the TX speedway? Would like to try the opportunity to flog my ZHP for some laps. Hey, maybe there's a way to safely reach that 155 mph nirvana. Or should we just take C&D's word for it?

brave1heart · May 2004

Check these chapters for info on driving events.

http://www.bmwcca.org/links/lnkfset.shtml

shipo · May 2004

Thanks!

Best Regards,
Shipo

gordonwd · May 2004

Just to elaborate a bit on the earlier responses:

1) In general, you're more likely to overrev when accelerating, especially in the lower gears where it revs up very quickly. However, there are automatic safeguards that will prevent this. On a manual trans, there is a fuel cutoff at redline. With an automatic, I assume that even when in manual mode it will force a shift if you rev it too high (someone with a Selectronic can verify this?). In the olden days, you could overrev to the point where the valves would "float" (i.e., not close all the way), and this would lead to all sorts of nasty consequences.

2) If you ever shift into too high a gear and feel the car sort of "bucking" when you let out the clutch -- that's lugging! The most common way that you'll do this, especially when learning, is to take off from a light in 3rd gear when you thought you had it in 1st, or to miss the gate and accidentally shift from 1st to 4th.

kyfdx · May 2004

That is correct.. You can't over-rev it.. even in manual, it will shift at the same point as in Sport mode. It also won't downshift, if the revs would be too high in the lower gear.

Your only worry with the manual is hitting a lower gear when trying to upshift. (i.e.: shifting into 1st, when you meant to upshift into 3rd). Otherwise, lugging would be the thing to avoid. Let the transmission do its job. Downshift when you need more power.

regards,
kyfdx

brave1heart · May 2004

<<< On a manual trans, there is a fuel cutoff at redline.>>>

Redline starts at 6,000 RPMs. Fuel cutoff is at ~6,700 RPMs.

kyfdx · May 2004

Do you think those red dashes are the "start" of the redline? I thought they were like the yellow lines in some cars... the warning area. I think the redline is where the redline is solid. Because my steptronic shifts about 6500 RPM when floored.

regards,
kyfdx

memphis10 · May 2004

I think my post got deleted by PAT_HOST due to the link. Is there any way to post pics?

pat · May 2004

Memphis10 - first of all, you should check your email.

The Membership Agreement, the Rules of the Road and the blurb under the post box all very clearly explain that links to other automotive message boards may not be posted. If you have any questions, feel free to email me and we'll straighten them out.

Regarding posting pictures ... click on the Owners Club link at the top of this page and check the first post of the Photo Gallery discussion. That explains what you need to know.

Have fun!

riez · May 2004

Never forgot the time I was driving my '95 Neon 5-speed manual on interstate. Was in 5th gear cruising along when I decide to go around someone in front of me. Thought I was downshifting from 5th to 4th. Accidently went into 2nd. As I let the clutch out the engine started screaming, looked at the tach to see the needle trying to bury itself in the red zone, and I immediately put the clutch in and put her in neutral. I'd only owned the car for about a week and still hadn't gotten completely used to its shifter.

kyfdx · May 2004

It is lucky you didn't spin it... It would be analagous to only slamming the brakes on the front wheels, with no braking on the back.

I had a '77 Cobra II (no jokes), that I tried to start when it was 25 below zero. The throttle linkage froze wide open, and when it cranked up, it immediately redlined.. About three seconds before I shut it off. Didn't really matter.. that car was a piece of crap anyway.

regards,
kyfdx

brave1heart · May 2004

Aren't you glad you got the E39? In Road & Track, a disastrous 6th place finish for the E60 among seven mid-sized 6 cylinder luxury cars. Even the Chrysler 300 beat it!!

Complaints centering around needlessly complex I-Drive functions, indirect handling and butt-ugly (literally) styling.

In Consumer Reports, it's much the same story: poor reliability and I-Drive madness topping the list.

shipo · May 2004

Funny thing, I was just talking with my business partner not five minutes ago, and we were talking about the fact that the leases on both of our cars end within the next 10 months. He is probably going to get the 300C or the Hemi Magnum, and I'm keeping the E39. Given that the number of miles that I drive per year has dropped to less than 12K since we moved here to NH (I've been driving lots of rental cars elsewhere though), I figure that I can probably hold on to my 2002 until the next generation 5-Series (E71 or some such number) comes out. As for the E60, as it sits now, there won't be darkening the doorway to my garage anytime soon. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · May 2004

Aren't you glad you got the E39? In Road & Track, a disastrous 6th place finish for the E60 among seven mid-sized 6 cylinder luxury cars. Even the Chrysler 300 beat it!!

But it's not based on performance. It's the usual lame stuff car mags do to come off as unbiased.

Complaints centering around needlessly complex I-Drive functions,

That one makes me rolls my eyes every time I see it. Car mag writers must be flat out idiots. I drove my bro-in-laws 745i and within a few minutes of tinkering I could get to whatever I needed quickly and without hesitation. Anytime I see this criticism I know the rest of the review isn't worth salt.

indirect handling

Heard many complaints about the active stuff at slow speeds but not heard anyone say it's odd at fast speeds. I gotta drive one...

and butt-ugly (literally) styling.

Don't care about styling. It's the least important thing to me when buying a car.

Mag reviews...useless. And I felt this way BEFORE owning a bimmer too.

memphis10 · May 2004

Drove the 530 SMG at the BMW charity "ultimate drive event". The cars were from BMWNA so there was no car salesman riding with me. Besides, the route was a curvy 10 mile road. I really liked the steering and handling of the E60 - 530. The active steering is quite different from the normal steering. It was tight and precise, but the feedback was slightly muted. I really like it and was wondering why some of the car mags trashed it so bad. The handling was suprisingly nice but this was the first 5 series I had driven and I was expecting it to be more in lines of the 7 series. I was hoping that the style would grow on me but it hasn't happened yet. It is butt ugly. But overall I feel it is a nice ugly car.

creakid1 · May 2004

"indirect handling"

Heard many complaints about the active stuff at slow speeds but not heard anyone say it's odd at fast speeds. I gotta drive one...

Fast speeds? Countless! Even the std steering w/ fixed ratio, which isn't as bad, isn't as communicative as before, at least compare to the ones w/ rack & pinion. Of course, the old 540i's steering w/o rack & pinion was numb enough.

Since I eliminate cars over 180" long, I don't keep most of the related articles.

memphis10 · May 2004

Thinking about installing a clutch stop for an E46 325i. Any suggestions on UUC or Rogue. Any warranty issues with having one. Do I have to mess with the guard switch thats tied to the clutch to prevent the engine to start with the clutch out.

bmw323is · May 2004

I'm going to the "Ultimate Drive" tomorrow and hope to drive the E60 with Active Steering and I-drive. I wouldn't consider buying a 5 series, but I want to know first-hand about these features since they will likely make there way to the 3 series and I'll be ready for a new 3 in a few years.

I might be able to live with the "butt" of the E60, but I cannot get past those terrible eyebrows. What were they thinking?

blueguydotcom · May 2004

Still don't get the obsession with the outside of cars. I bought the car for how it felt while driving. The exterior? I'm not a socal modder, so it really doesn't matter.

Then again, I'm prone to wearing torn jeans, old t-shirts and in general offering enough of a juxtaposition that someone has the gall to ask at least once a month if my 330i is actually my car.

brislance1 · May 2004

I have an 03 330i with sport and premium package and am experiencing some annoying tire noise at low speeds. I stopped at two tire shops today and was told my tires are beginning to cup somewhat and that that they should be rotated. How do you rotate sport package tires when the tires are different sizes on the front and rear? I have always been told never to rotate tires on a BMW. The car only has 9,000 miles on it. Anyone have any suggestions? I suspect there is no warranty from BMW on tires. How about Continental Tire Company?

creakid1 · May 2004

can be rotated b/t left & right.

creakid1 · May 2004

"Then again, I'm prone to wearing torn jeans, old t-shirts and in general offering enough of a juxtaposition that someone has the gall to ask at least once a month if my 330i is actually my car."

I went one step further, even my well-maintained '90 Protege has un-repaired dents & missing wheel covers.

Each time I used to park my car, whether it was the '90 Protege LX, '93 Camry SE or '98 Corolla LE, near the Mexican border, the parking attendant always asked for "$5" in English whether my stereo was on or not. But if I happened to leave on a Spanish station w/ the language broadcasted, then the attendant would ask me for the $5 in Spanish, since he probably couldn't see my face from where he was standing anyway.

After I restored the '84 Jetta coupe, which doesn't got a radio, I decided to give it a try to see how well it drives down there. Eventhough the Mexican-market Mexican-buit old Jetta(Atlantic) is a 4-dr, that attendant would ask me for the $5 in Spanish.

The funny part is how I came back northbound by the check point at night. The border patrol officer, who usually waves my notchback vehicles to go through, couldn't tell by the front view of the car that my Jetta is a made-in-WestGermany coupe. So he wanted me to stop. & just before I stopped, he probably saw me wearing a pair of nerdy glasses, so he decided to let me through.

shipo · May 2004

I'm not too sure you want to hear what I'm about to tell you, however, due to the more aggressive suspension setup of the SP equipped cars, the tires wear faster and more unevenly than they otherwise should. What is even more discouraging, as they wear, they get noisy(er). I have heard any number of reason for the noise ranging from Cupping to different rubber compounds deeper into the tread that don't ride as smoothly or as quietly as the outer rubber. Whatever the reason, I have heard many noise related complaints from folks who drive cars (not just BMWs) with the lower profile/higher performance tires. :-/

I just went over to the 5-Series board and queried "tire noise" and got 72 hits, and over on the "Tires, tires, tires" board the same query generated 172 responses.

Regarding your question about rotating your 330i SP tires; I don't think it's possible because I suspect that you have unidirectional tires.

Looking at this problem from a different angle, I suspect that if those of us who drive SP equipped cars were to drive them closer to the edge more of the time and on nice winding roads at that, the tires would wear more evenly. Failing that, at least they would wear out faster so that we wouldn't have to put up with the noise as long. :-/ Maybe you should take a few driving courses and start racing, after all, why should Paul Newman be the only septuagenarian out there on the track. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

mitchs3 · May 2004

My 2002 330i sedan also has a noise as well. More noticeable when driving after the car has been sitting a while. A rubbing type sound that varies with speed and with the angle of the steering wheel. The dealer has investigated a few times and cannot hear noise or find any pathology.... Any thoughts? The notion of tire cupping is new to me , what is this?

brave1heart · May 2004

I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to good sex, personality and flirting go a loooong way. Call me superficial but looks do matter a lot too ;o)

brislance1 · May 2004

Shipo,

Thanks for the answer on my tire noise. Guess I will just tune up the radio and forget the noise.

shipo · May 2004

Hmmm, thinking out loud (on the keyboard that is), I doubt that your problem is tire related. My guess is that you might be hearing your brakes, and that could be because of a couple of different reasons. So, before I start speculating too much, could you possibly provide a little more information about your car?

Do you have the SP or is it running on All-Season tires?
Have you had the brakes done recently?
If not, how many miles are on the brakes?
How hard do you drive?
How loud is the noise when you do hear it?
Is the noise louder turning in one direction versus the other?
Can you detect any extra wear near the outer edges or shoulders of any one tire?

As for "Cupping", it's kind of hard to describe; kind of like someone took a shallow spoon and scooped away a portion of your tread at regular intervals all of the way around the tire, typically at or near the shoulder of the tire. When it gets bad enough, your tires generate a woop-woop-woop kind of noise as you are driving along. I looked for a picture on the internet; however, I was unable to find one that obviously illustrated the phenomena.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo · May 2004

No problem. ;-)

Hey, how about those racing lessons?

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx · May 2004

One other thing... If two tire shops suggested you rotate your tires on a staggered set-up... time to find a new tire shop.

As Shipo says.. performance tires tend to get noisy after just a little wear.. Also, your rear tires are going to wear faster than the fronts, and it is likely that your right rear will wear faster than your left rear. I took off my summer tires right after I bought my car in December with 8300 miles, and you could already tell the wear differences (non-staggered, 325i Sport package).

If you are fairly happy with your tires.. (not withstanding the noise), then you can replace just the rear tires and possibly get another 10K-15K miles out of the fronts. But, most people tend to want a whole new set, once the rears wear out.

regards,
kyfdx

cotmc · May 2004

I have had the same tire noise problem with my '00 528i with the sport package. The allignment of the wheels with our sport suspensions is not completely "neutral". If I remember correctly, BMW sets up their sport packages with negative camber. This causes the inner portion of the tread to wear more than the rest of the tire, resulting in cupping along the inside tread. (This assumes you are not racing the car, taking high-g turns, etc!) Usually it takes about 8-10K miles before the noise begins to grow. The noise isn't too bad at 65mph, but it becomes very irritating when driving along at 35-45mph!

A friend of mine recently tried something that seems to make sense, which I will try after my new set of tires starts getting noisy. As shipo mentioned, the tires are typically unidirectional, and so you can't just rotate the wheels between the left and right sides. However, you could have the tire shop dismount the tires and remount them with the exact same orientation on the opposite side of the car. In other words, picture the tire "sliding" from the left side over to the right side, without changing directions. Now, what was previously the inner edge of the tire, with cupping, is on the outside edge! There will likely still be some noise, but because the outside edge doesn't have as much of the weight during low-speed driving, you should notice some improvement.

shipo · May 2004

I thought of that idea and then abandoned it a moment later. Why? Not because it's not fairly easily done but because, at least on my car, not only are my tires unidirectional, but they also have an asymetrical tread pattern with one side meant to be on the outer edge of the wheel. :-(

Consider the following picture:

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · May 2004

I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to good sex, personality and flirting go a loooong way. Call me superficial but looks do matter a lot too ;o)

Ya lost me. What does that have to do with a car?

bing330i · May 2004

The Conti Sports tires on my 02 330i SP around 10k miles became so annoying that I simply replaced them with a set of Michelin Pilot Sports A/S. It has been quite since then, still good and quiet at current 34k miles.

riez · May 2004

Why all the worry? We all know that the aggressive suspension set up of the 3 and 5 Series lead to increased tire wear and eventually noise (pretty much regardless of tire manufacturer). No big deal. Buy a new set of tires.

As AAA's annual survey points out, depreciation and insurance are the two most expensive costs to operate your car. And don't forget gasoline. Cost of tires doesn't even come close.

If you can afford to buy your BMW and afford to put tankfuls of premium unleaded in it, you can afford to buy a new set of tires after 20-30 miles.

What did the Eagles say? Get over it?

cotmc · May 2004

"If you can afford to buy your BMW and afford to put tankfuls of premium unleaded in it, you can afford to buy a new set of tires after 20-30 miles."

I've been purchasing new sets of tires after 12K and 14K miles of wear, but buying a new set of tires every 20-30 miles seems a bit excessive. ;>)

shipo: Excellent point regarding asymmetrical tires! My friend must have had a symmetrical tread pattern on his tires.

blueguydotcom · May 2004

I'm on pace to spend about 1k a year on tires. That easily exceeds what my insurance costs me on the 330i - about $800 a year.

kyfdx · May 2004

Yeah... I've had mine for less than five months.. Already spent $730 on winter tires, then $1170 for a set of M68s with new Pilot Sports.. Even at $2.00/gallon, I've spent less than $600 so far on gas.

Even if you are Warren Buffett, maintenance costs matter. Whether I can afford a 3-series or a 7-series, every dollar spent on the car could be used for something else.

regards,
kyfdx

riez · May 2004

Costs have to be figured on a per mile basis.

cotmc... 20-30=20,000-30,000. I forgot the "k".

kyfdx... How much have you spent on insurance? What do you think your depreciation has been? There are a lot of great tires that are less expensive than the Pilot Sports. They are great tires, but when I did a price/useable performance comparison with my former 540i6, I went with less expensive ContiSportContact 2s. Choosing a different tire could've saved you as much as $250 or more, just on the summer tires. Bet you could've spent a lot less on the winter tires, too, and still had a great tire.

blueguydotcom... How many miles a year are you driving? Does your cost include snow tires, too? Snow tires should last 2-3 seasons.

Best thing you can do tire-wise is an annual 4-wheel alignment and balance.

riez · May 2004

Don't think BMW is alone. When I bought my '04 IS300, think there were 2 stickers on the exterior of the car warning about possible low tire tread life (under 20k). Think the issue was also mentioned about 4 or more times in the full-color sales brochure. Lexus went out of its way to warn prospective buyers that a serious sport sedan isn't designed to prolong tire wear. (Lexus has the ES300 for that.)

BMW might want to do the same so no one can say they are surprise about how the car treats tires.

blueguydotcom · May 2004

How many miles a year are you driving? Does your cost include snow tires, too? Snow tires should last 2-3 seasons.

I put 15k miles on my car in one year. Those are just replacing the stock tires. no winter/snow tires. I recently swapped back tires and that was over 500 clams. Fronts will run into the mid 400s and I need them too...just haven't bought them yet as I rarely drive the car now.

As for gas...good lord. I've probably spent $1500 this year over 15k miles. Yep, every 10 miles is a buck.

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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