Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Lexus ES 300/ES 330

12021232526105

Comments

  • brian42smithbrian42smith Member Posts: 14
    I agree completely with your thoughts s852. I WANT to like the looks of the new ES300, but find the exterior boring...particularly with its unicolor. The interior looks great.

    I need to see the car in person. I also need to see the new Camry.

    Unfortunately, I can't think of any car in this price range that has an eye-catching exterior. The Acura TL (and RL for that matter), Infiniti I30, Nissan Maxima, and Audi A6 all are about the same with non-inspiring style.

    The only vehicle I've seen that seems to break the mold is Infiniti's G35, which will be introduced next spring. The grill on it is a bit too big, but it is stylish and distinctive. Unfortunately, it is rear-wheel drive. I live in Colorado and would prefer a front-wheel (or all wheel) drive during the winter.

    Anyone has any suggestions. I have a rear-drive Mercedes E320 and really would prefer front or all-wheel drive.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    No offense, but the the new Es300 looks sort-of like a spaceship, but I bet they will sell the heck out of them. That interior looks nice, I bet the quality is better than any car in it's class.
  • larichlarich Member Posts: 3
    I am a first time contributor;however a reader of all postings since I discovered this site after I bought my '00 ES 300 in Feb. 00. SEEMS THE PROBLEMS AND CONCERNS ARE THE SAME ,JUST DIFFERENT FACES AND DIFFERENT Places. My concern is a continuous humming,buzzing coming from under the hood. This occurs in a cold engine sitting over night in the garage. When I insert the key without starting it begins. It also does it on accessory but disappears after starting. Lexus service writer said it didn't do it for him after sitting on their lot overnight.( heard that before?) I tried it with The RX300 loaner the morning he called telling me he heard nothing. The Same sound was produced! When I returned, he proceeded to tell me that it was the first time it was brought to his attention and explained it was the fuel pump priming. Has anyone observed this noise or am I being picky? The other sound is a "Click" after moving a few feet when starting from an initial stopped position. Could it be coming from the rear brakes unlocking?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Contrary to that which seems to be the popular opinion, I think that the 2002 ES does have distinctive styling that looks nothing like other cars in its class. From head on, I don't see how anyone could mistake it for anything else, and there's a definite SC430 influence goin on. That's not to say that I'm completely won over, but I do like the swoopy sharp tail and the fact that this ES does not look like the 97-01 generation, which I felt looked waaay too much like the 92-96 second generation ES.

    About the engine, here's my theory, and I'd appreciate feedback....
    It seems logical, IMO, that Lexus would hold off putting a more powerful variant in the ES this year. Why? b/c the GS series is entering its final year of this iteration, so once that car is redesigned, probably given a hp and torque boost, perhaps Lexus will do the same with the ES. but for now, why would Lexus want the ES to outpower the larger, more expensive GS300? I think that would kill sales. Its a trickle down effect, and since the Camry can't step on the ES's toes, it might see a boost as well, if the ES gets one in the future... but that's probably only after the Avalon gets the same improvements as the ES.

    ~Does this make sense to anyone else?
  • rickc5rickc5 Member Posts: 378
    After seeing the photos of the 2002 in the September issue of Automobile Magazine (received yesterday), I must concur with s852, brian and max: personally, I don't like the new design.

    The headlights look like every other new Toyota in the last couple of years (e.g. the Celica), and the trunk area has been noticeably shortened (like the new Avalon and GS Lexi). Not to my tastes, but then, that's why there are other brands of cars out there.

    Automobile will provide a complete test of the new Camry next month. I'll wait to see what it looks like. BTW, the Camry SE (Sport Edition) is back!

    I won't miss the 2-tone paint on the ES though. That "look' was really getting dated.

    If ES stands for "Executive Sedan", then I feel Lexus missed the target. IMHO, they could rename it the CES300, for "Common Everyday Sedan".

    All that being said, I agree with max that Lexus will probably sell all they can get.
  • swsmsswsms Member Posts: 62
    The styling is elegant but still a little boring. I too miss the two tone look which has been a Lexus "staple" for more than 10 years. I guess Lexus will be selling alot of gold packages and chrome wheels to dress up the new ES!!

    BTW, my mother-in-law just retired and she wants to buy a Lexus. She won't be doing any major hauling, but safety is a priority. This would be her last car and my wife and I want her to get something really nice to reward herself. Should she wait for the '02 ES300 or go for the RX300? She current drives a '97 Camry.

    Comments please!!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    NO! can anyone say ghetto. these are the worst two things ever to happen to the stock automobile options list. sooooo hideous.
    please don't ruin your Lex by "dressing it up" with one of these.
    ~alpha
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    Looks very close to the Peugot 607. Headlights are almost identical. Hopefully it will have at least a little more chrome than what I saw in that picture.
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    Maybe with a different, darker or bolder paint color and more chrome (such as on the grill) it will look a little better.
    The light grey/blue color in the photos with matching plastic-looking grill is ultra-bland and looks cheap.
    I don't think it looks very good in the back either. I think the tail lights ar too small with way too much "white space" below the trunk lid. At least they put some chrome around the tail lights.
    The interior looked good except that the tan leather in the tested car was dreary. It would be nice if they offer a very light grey or light beige interior like I think is available on the new SC coupe to brighten up the inside. It may also look better with a black interior.
    Maybe the right color combinations on the car can salvage the looks somewhat.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    I think the interior of the new ES300 looks almost exactly like the interior of the current Acura 3.2TL (non Type-s). The dash design (with the navigation) along with the slotted 5-speed gear shifter and the rear AC vents for the rear passengers, has absolutely no difference in looks from the Acura 3.2TL.


    Check out the below link:


    http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/Acura32TL/Photos.htm

  • jamrock4jamrock4 Member Posts: 53
    Speaking from my own personal experience the IS300, ES300, and GS300 appeal to different segments of the market. The gen X crowd loves the IS300. ES300 appeals primarily to a more mature crowd who are willing to spend a little extra for luxury. GS300 buyers tend to be more upscale consumers who are looking to separate themselves from the crowd and tend to look more at the Mercedes E class and the BMW 5 series. IMHO I doubt that a more powerful ES would put a dent in GS300 sales.

    The only Lexus that appears to have stolen sales form the ES300 is th RX300. In the future the Acura TL-S and Infiniti I35 may take away sales from the ES300 because they have established a new standard for peformance in the luxury market 260 horsepower.

    Lexus has made the false assumption that people are either interested in a sport sedan devoid of luxury (IS300) or a luxury sedan with the emphasis on a cushy ride and little else. Most of the people I know want luxury, performance, and handling.
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    "Lexus has made the false assumption that people are either interested in a sport sedan devoid of luxury (IS300) or a luxury sedan with the emphasis on a cushy ride and little else. Most of the people I know want luxury, performance, and handling. "

    The GS300 is available for them.

    The biggest problem for the 2002 ES300 is not that 210HP is inadequate, but the fact that the styling has suddenly gone from one of the best styled to one of the worse in this class.
  • ripinrocketripinrocket Member Posts: 157
    I find most of the ES300 to be nice looking.

    The front end is definately distinctive and it links the 2002 to the 2001 ES300. Looks similar yet different. The side profile is totally different from the old ES300, that is mostly due to the fact that the car has risen almost 3" in height and the framed doors replacing the frameless doors of the previous ES300.

    The only part that I don't like is the rear end. What happened? The rear end seems like someone other than who styled the front and sides styled it. The lights overall aren't bad, but the Benz knock-off licence plate surround looks out of place. And the tailights seem a bit small. And that chrome trim around the tailights has got to go.

    The interior is smashing! Very nice! The dash looks very upscale and elegant. hunter001, the interior looks nothing like the 3.2TLs. Gated shifter? that's a benz trademark and the LS400 has had it since 1995, and the GS300/400/430 has had it since 1998. you see similarities in the rear A/C vents? What else shape are A/C vents supposed to be other than retangular?

    The TL's interior looks like *Ramada* compared to the ES300s interior, which I could best describe as *ritz carlton*.
  • ripinrocketripinrocket Member Posts: 157
    I'm also befuddled by the 210bhp. But I'm figuring 2002 will see a new engine or a power jump. I don't think I35 will hurt ES300 sales. The ES300 has a much better and built up reputation and most of the target audience of the ES300 are the conservative set.
  • spfoteyspfotey Member Posts: 131
    Lexus has made the false assumption that people are either interested in a sport sedan devoid of luxury (IS300) or a luxury sedan with the emphasis on a cushy ride and little else. Most of the people I know want luxury, performance, and handling. "

    agree!!

    The biggest problem for the 2002 ES300 is not that 210HP is inadequate, but the fact that the styling has suddenly gone from one of the best styled to one of the worse in this class.

    Agree on styling.

    I think most people -- in this class of car -- want a car that performs well (or at least close to competition), has a luxury feel, and has classy styling, with a decent value.

    From what i can tell, none of the entrants do well in all categories (acura is weak in luxury and styling but good in all else -- bmw is weak in value and space and lexus is now weak in performance and perhaps styling).

    personally, my wife has the TL and it meets all of the "specs" except two -- don't really care for the sheet metal (looks) and it's not particularly FUN to drive...
  • brian42smithbrian42smith Member Posts: 14
    spfotey - you are right on with those comments.

    I guess we were all spoiled ten years ago with the styling on the Acura Legend, Lexus ES300, Lexus LS400, Nissan Maxima, Toyota Camry, and others. I think most of those cars, even today, are more exciting than the 2000+ models.

    It seems likely every new generation from Japan gets more and more boring!

    I planned to buy the 2002 ES300, but don't know that I want to look at that car every day. I just picked up the Motor Trend and, unfortunately, that is what the car looks like. I keep hoping this is a dream and I wake up with a car that looks like one of the design drawings. On a positive note, the interior looks great.

    Automakers - please...please...pretty please bring style back to the luxury car marketplace. I'll pay $40K, but not for a car that looks like the original Ford Taurus.

    I, like everyone else, want luxury, sport, and value. If someone finds something, let me know.
  • tomjavatomjava Member Posts: 136
    IMO, ES 300 is going to do well. Please remember, ES 300 buyers don't care about speed or fun. To them, luxury, road isolation, quiet, and relaxing are the main points. Plus Lexus stereo system is so good, that drivers are enjoying the music instead of the annoying traffic on the freeway.

    If you want sporty, buy BMW 3 series.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Edmunds.com has just published its "First Drive" of the 2002 ES 300. Check it out by following the link in the Additional Resource box on the left sidebar of this page.

    Post your comments about the review here, or if you'd like, provide your feedback - for possible publication on the Edmunds site - by emailing editor@edmunds.com.

    So what do you think?

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    As I've said before, I curently own a 1995 ES 300 that I bought new, and plan to buy the 2002 model. It is exactly what I am looking for: beautiful, smooth and quiet with the absolute nicest interior in its class. Not to mention the finest dealer/customer service on the planet. Oh, did I mention the bulletproof reliability?

    There may be faster cars and sportier cars, but they are for someone else. For me, the new ES just about has it all.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I too feel that Toyota will be very successful with the new ES, as lenscap's posts will give testament too. It may not be the car for the enthuisasts that live on these boards, but it will hit its target buyers easily, and woo them over with the qualities that have made Lexus the success that it is today. Read the above Edmunds link, and you'll see that Lexus openly acknowledges this. To those of you who call the styling bland, please send me some of the drug that you are on. No, I'm not the biggest fan of the vehicle's style as I stated earlier today, but I feel it is a distinct design, and a bold departure.
    (Sidenote: Although a Toyota fan, I feel that in this category, the Acura TL-S represents the best VALUE, but not that it is necessarily the best car.
    Sidenote 2: If I was out of school and had the capital to invest on a great car like those that are offered in the "entry luxury" or "entry sports luxury" category, I'd pick the IS300 5sp...)
  • carlo7carlo7 Member Posts: 7
    Larich,

    I bought my ES300 new in Jan 00 and heard the same noise. I tried 2 new ES300's at the dealer while mine was having a complimentary oil change. Both had the same noise. Could not get an answer as to what it is. I tend to turn the key to ON and let all the electronics snap, crackle and pop for about 5 seconds before I start the car. The noise starts as soon as I slide the key in the lock and continues until I start the car. Only happens on the first start every day. I just turned 17k mi and the car runs fine so I'm letting sleeping dogs lie.

    I also hear a small snap or something the first time I turn the wheel going out of the drive on the first ride of the day. No other time. Sounds like something in the front suspension, but again no problems so I'm leaving it alone. So far I like the car but am looking for a 2000 LS for more comfortable seats. Can't seem to tilt the bottom of this seat enough. Last car was a Diamante and the seat was much better.
  • ctrowland1ctrowland1 Member Posts: 31
    It's growing on me. First look was....ahggg. Then went back...looked again. Not as bad. Front is Toyota like, rear is Mercedes like and side is Taurus like? I bought my '01 ES in March. I was afraid change would look more like rest of Lexus line. I'm glad I bought mine when I did. But '02 is growing on me.

    Chip
  • AamirQAamirQ Member Posts: 7
    Hello,

    I don't own a Lexus and I don't plan on buying one anytime soon, but I wanted to throw in my $0.02 on the 2002 ES300's styling. First of all, I'll reserve final judgment until I see one in person, but, like many of you, I don't like the styling, based on the photos I've seen thus far.

    To me, it looks more like a Daewoo than a Lexus, perhaps like a Super Leganza, if one ever existed. (IMO the Leganza is pretty sharp for a sub-$20K family sedan, but I wouldn't want *my* $35K Lexus to look like one.) The grille looks unimaginative and generic. I can't stand it when Japanese and Korean auto manufacturers (or anyone else, for that matter, but they're the ones who offend the most in this regard) use the generic four- or five-strip horizontal bar grille. Come up with something more creative, for goodness sakes!!!

    The swept-back headlights are heavily used by Toyota's design studios these days, but they do not belong on this car. They look out of place and do not fit in with the design "theme". The greenhouse looks too small on a car this long and tall. The exterior looks too slab-sided, and that character ridge that runs just above the door handles just doesn't work; it enhances the extreme height of the sheetmetal relative to the short windows. The section above the rear wheels look particularly fat. This is not a lean and elegant design by any means.

    The car's wheels and tires look too small, which is something that the Avalon suffers from as well. The shade of light metallic blue and the multi-spoke alloy wheels makes the familycar.com's test car look like a Prius on steroids.

    On the other hand, the interior looks positively smashing. The Acura TL is a total embarrassment by comparison. It definitely looks like a $40,000 car in there. Increased usage of burl walnut certainly helped here.

    Why only 210 hp? That should be enough for most drivers, nevertheless, especially with a 0-60 time of 8.1 seconds. Drivers who want a quicker, more powerful car probably wouldn't go for a Lexus anyway. Still, the Acura TL and Infiniti I35 are well ahead in this regard. I'd expect to see an increase in displacement in a couple of years, maybe a 3.2 liter V6 that puts out 235 hp or so. (This is just a guess on my part.)

    To sum up, all of the above statements are my opinions, so if you really like the 2002 ES300, I am happy for you. I might like it once I get a chance to see the car in person as well. I remember when the current VW Jetta was released a couple of years ago; I hated the photos, but, after seeing it in person, I think it's the best-looking small sedan sold in the US. And the other Japanese sedans in this segment are nothing to write home about either, from a styling perspective.

    The 2002 ES300 will be a sales success, I'm sure. This car will still press all the right buttons for those who represent the target buyer group. I'd rather take a VW Passat W8 or an Acura TL Type-S instead, though.

    PS - Sorry for the length of this message.
  • domettgdomettg Member Posts: 55
    The comments from Lexus Group VP in the first drive review:

    "We don't have to develop a car that tries to be all
    things to all people," Lexus group Vice President Denny
    Clements stated, and we feel that there's a certain
    amount of honor in acknowledging a car's limitations.
    Many people simply don't give a fig about the
    performance potential of an automobile. A car is a
    conveyance, not a form of entertainment, and if they're
    lucky enough, their vehicle will also convey to onlookers
    the idea that they've achieved a certain level of success.
    For those consumers, the ES 300 will have tremendous
    appeal. "

    I think this is a cop out for not doing anything to the engine. I can't remember the last time that the next generation of a car, especially in this segment, didn't have at the very least, a token increase in horsepower. The current 3.0L engine in the Maxima has more HP than the ES so I find it hard to believe that Lexus couldn't find a few more ponys without much expense for marketing purposes even if they are planning on replacing the engine when the new GS3XX comes out.

    In a prior post, I commented on the sluggishness of the automatic in my '99 ES to downshift. The following quote is taken from the first drive review:

    "The V6 has been mated to a new transmission,
    upgraded from a four-speed to a closer-ratio five-gear
    unit. Upshifts are crisp enough, but downshifts are
    sludgy and come only after the car thinks about it for a
    while. Under most normal driving circumstances, it's
    perfectly acceptable, but trying to wring some spirit out
    of the ES 300 is more of an exercise in futility; it's as if
    some goblin had poured butterscotch sauce into the
    fluid reservoir."

    Believe me when I say that I have seen this complaint about most Lexus models in MANY car magazines over the years. How long is it going to take to address these issues?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Why not stop waiting for more power, better tranny, etc, and just purchase a different vehicle. TL-S perhaps? If enough of you do that, Toyota will be forced to get the message.
    ~alpha
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Based on my experience with my wife's car - a '99 Lexus ES - & my own - an '01 BMW 330i with sport package & 5-speed manual - I'd say that the Lexus has just the right amount of power for its personality. My BMW is a much faster car (0-60 in 6.1 seconds), but it also has the all the stuff - RWD, a very firm suspension & tighter, heavier (substantially less power assist) & more communicative steering - needed to apply that power safely & effectively to the pavement. If you bump up the power in the ES you must also tune the suspension & steering to accommodate the extra horses. Otherwise, you'll wind up with a fast, dangerous pig. (Remember, folks, we're dealing with FWD here.) But you can't do this to the ES without changing its personality. It's a boulevard cruiser - a damned good one, in fact - & it's got all the power a boulevard cruiser needs. My wife, who's typical of the ES drivers I know, loves it the way it is.
  • lsclsc Member Posts: 210
    The car to me looks like it's going to head and shoulders above the TL and the I35. First the interior - by far the best..

    exterior - looks the most expensive. how it's styled is up for debate but it looks the most expensive.

    transmission - Toyota makes the best transmissions in the business.

    engine - this is the one area that Toyota isn't tops in...but i'm sure it'll be very smooth and 210HP means that no one will have trouble merging in traffic... it's not a rocket by any means but with the new 5 speed tranny...it'll be quicker than the last generation.

    suspension - Lexus went with the multi-link rear suspension...not a bad move!
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    When the BMW 5-series was redesigned it 1997, wasn't it changed from the 530i to the 528i? I know the engine was downgraded a little.

    Also, Lexus wanted the ES engine to attain a ULEV rating in all 50 states. I don't believe any competing car has that.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    The Audi A4 1.8T engine is ULEV...

    And when the 5 series was redone, it went from having 3 models (525i, 530i, 540i) to 2 models (528i and 540i - they dropped the 3.0 liter V8). The 528i was an upgrade from the 525i.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Thanks for the 5-series clarification.

    As for the A4, I don't consider a 4-cylinder turbo engine comparable to a V6. It's less powerful and nowhere near as smooth and quiet. What I meant was cars like the Acura TL. The engine in that car, for example, is only ULEV in California while the TL-S engine isn't at all.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    The A4 is most certainly a competitor for the ES300. And it is faster than the ES300 (even with the 1.8T engine). No, it's not as quiet, but it's not supposed to be, either. The cars have somewhat different missions at going after the same customers. Audi wants the people who enjoy driving. Lexus wants the people who would rather ride in a car than drive it. But they're all looking at sedans in the same price range.

    You may not consider it to be competition, but the rest of the world does.
  • domettgdomettg Member Posts: 55
    lenscap:

    Please excuse my ignorance, I guess I need to be educated on this topic: why is the ULEV rating so important? Is this something that is required to sell cars in certain states?

    lsc:

    I agree that Toyota has the best transmissions in the business, especially in terms of reliability and smoothness but is it asking too much for an automatic that downshifts into 2nd without so much hesitation? The 'drive by wire' system should make for even faster detection of throttle position changes thus translating into a faster command to the transmission to downshift. The only thing I can think of is there is some mechanical limitation that would compromise shift smoothness for faster downshifts.
    BTW, the interior may be the best effort yet by Lexus. IMHO, it is drop dead gorgeous!
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    Everyone has the right to expect that the new ES300 will have a nicer interior than most of the competing cars.
    Of course it should. It clearly OUTPRICES everything else. $38K loaded with navigation and no discounts?!
    Will it really have $8,000 worth of wood and higher grade plastic than a TL that is available discounted to $30K with navigation?
    There is no reason to compare an ES300 with a Type-S TL since even the base TL outpowers the the ES300 and has a smoother, quieter engine that better compares to the Lexus than the rumbling 260HP version with the hard sport suspension.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I doubt the the A4 1.8T auto could out accelerate the ES.
    I haven't seen a figure for the 1.8T auto, but at 8.15 sec to 60 (Motor Trend, Sept 2001) the ES 300 is quick enough, and I really dont see how 170hp in the A4 with the could beat that by anything more that like .2 seconds.
    ~alpha

    s852-pricing hasnt been set yet. where are you quoting from? for now, like the Altima, its all speculation.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    "The only thing I can think of is there is some mechanical limitation that would compromise shift smoothness for faster downshifts."

    You are correct. Manufacturers can smoothen out the shifts of the transmission, which would result in sloppier but imperceptible shifts which gives the illusion of "smoothness". The other option is to have crisper and faster shifts which could come across as "not so smooth" to the driver. Basically, the challenge for manufacturers is to find the golden balance. How much of "smoothness" should be sacrificed for better and faster shifts ?!!! Lexus correctly reads its customer base and goes for the imperceptible, smooth (but mechanically sluggish) way of shifting the automatic transmission, which is what its customers want. Nothing wrong with that.

    The Lexus IS300 is an exception to this rule but then the target audience is certainly different in case of the IS.

    Later...AH
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Well, auto vs. auto, the ES probably is faster. But stick A4 vs. auto ES (which is a fair comparison because Lexus chooses to no offer a manual), the A4 is faster. About 7.5 to 60.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    I think a better comparison would be with the 2.8L V6 in the Audi (the new A4 with CVT transmission which I drove in Munich 2 months back, would be coming with a 3.0L V6).

    Let us take the 1.8L 4-banger Audi engine out of this comparison.

    Later...AH
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    ok let's all start comparing apples and oranges... of course the stick is going to be quicker. i'll agree with you on that.
    ~alpha
  • ripinrocketripinrocket Member Posts: 157
    The A4 1.8T is most clearly not the ES300s competition. The A4s competition is the IS300, to a extent. Although, I doubt most A4 1.8t shoppers are even looking at $30K+ cars.

    Both cars are totally different.

    The ES300 is 191" long, the A4 is 176"
    The ES300 is strictly FWD, the A4 FWD or AWD.
    The ES300 auto. only, the A4 auto and manual.
    The A4 1.8T starts in the mid $20K range, the ES300 starts in the low $30K range.

    that's a different ballpark. Now, the A4 2.8/3.0 does compete with the ES300 as well as the IS300 because of it's price.

    If the A4 1.8T competes with the ES300 that means the G20 also competes with the ES300. Yeah, right!

    It is quite easy to surmise that Lexus is targeting 2 different kinds of customers within the same price range with the IS300 and ES300.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Because it's seriously underpowered. Only 140 hp and slow as a dog. The upcoming G35 will surely be a competitor, though. But I'll bet you'll find some way to say it isn't. Maybe because it'll be RWD, so it's not fair to compare to the Lex.

    And I'd say most A4 shoppers are looking at $30k+ cars. The BMW 325xi and the A4 were the final 2 to make the cut for me when I was looking. MSRP on my A4 was $29,600, just a shade under $30k. The Bimmer would have been about $32-33k.

    Hunter, why does the 1.8T not compete? Is it because it has too much of a price advantage over the ES? It is just about the same acceleration-wise (auto to auto, the ES is probably a couple of tenths faster). They are both entry level lux sedans.
  • mathtypemathtype Member Posts: 33
    FYI: The August 8 issue of AutoWeek magazine has a nice photo of the 2002 ES on the cover and a three-page article about it that doesn't say much but includes some more photos. Here are a few quotes from this article:

    "The 2002 ES is quieter, smoother, more elegant and refined than the current model, and it successfully erases most of the palpable links it had to its plebian platrom-mate, the Toyota Camry."

    "This simple stylishness [the exterior] continues inside, with a thin swath of polished California walnut wood trim... The rest of the interior's surfaces are dressed in either leather -- the same quality leather used in Lexus' flagship LS 430 -- tastefully placed chrome bits or soft-touch plastic in two tones ..."

    "... it disappoints a bit in the power department ... driving up hills we found ourselves wanting for more power ..."

    One comment of my own: Seeing photos, even lots of them, of a new car doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. It may give quite a different impression in person (look at, for example, the Lexus SC 430), and sometimes one's opinion of a car's looks changes over time. I hope this is the case with the new ES.
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    The $38K loaded quote came from posts on clublexus.com, to which most posters thought that was a great bargain.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Mike -

    I'm a bit surprised that you see the A4 1.8T & the ES 300 as competitors. When my wife & I were shopping for a car for her in late 98/early 99, we looked at the Infiniti I30 (rejected because my wife couldn't get comfortable behind the wheel) & the Acura TL (put off by trim flaws in early production cars). At that time, Audi was substantially rebating leftover '98 A6's, so we visited our local Audi store & drove one. Liked it but didn't buy one because my wife didn't like the colors of any of the rebate-eligible cars in stock. We didn't bother looking at the A4 because we both perceived it as qualitatively different from any of the other cars under consideration. The A4 emphasized sports while the others emphasized luxury, & luxury is what my wife wanted. She wound up with the ES 300 & she still loves it.

    When I was shopping for myself 2 years later, I checked out the 3-series BMW, the A4 & the IS 300. Didn't bother looking at any of the FWD Japanese luxury nameplates. Drove the A4 (a Quattro 1.8T 5-speed) & loved it. Drove a 5-speed BMW, loved it a bit more & bought it. (Didn't bother driving the IS because it was auto only at the time. I'd certainly drive it today, though, if I was still in the market.) Although the ES shares price points with these cars, it's not an enthusiast's car & is thus not a true competitor. My wife loves her ES & wants to be buried in it, but I'd much rather have an A4 (particularly a 5-speed Quattro 1.8T) for myself. I just don't see the 2 as real competitors.
  • ripinrocketripinrocket Member Posts: 157
    Are you in love with Infiniti and Audi just because you own them?

    I will surely say the A4 competes against the IS300 not the ES300, and I can surely say the G35 will compete against the IS300, not the ES300. It really is quite simple to come to that conclusion. Sure, before the IS300 came out, I'm sure alot of A4 shoppers looked at the ES300, and some probably still do, but the A4 is not a direct competitor to the ES300, especially not the A4 1.8T. Again that is because of price, size, power, handling, drivetrain availability.

    Yes, your A4 cost $29K, and how much would a base ES300 and a loaded 2002 ES300 cost? $33K base and about $39K loaded. It's obvious those 2 cars are not in the same ballpark, in any logical person's mind.

    The BMW 3-series competes to a greater degree with the ES300 because it is closer in price, a base 325i costs about $28K and a loaded one will run close to $40K. That is in the ES300s ballpark. But still I would bet on it, that not too many 325i or 330i shoppers go looking at the ES300 anymore. instead they would go looking at the IS300.

    The G20 does have only 140bhp, and the A4 1.8T had 148bhp and now has 170bhp. Still far off the ES300s level.

    Please understand the concept of Lexus luring 2 totally different types of buyers, on the whole, into their showrooms in the same price range. The IS300 for sports sedan shoppers, the ES300 for luxury sedan buyers.

    The IS300 would compete with the 3-series, A4, C-class, upcmoning G35.

    The ES300 competes more with the C-class, I30, 3.2TL.

    Here's an idea: did you compare your A4 to the ES300 when shopping? Also, do a survey on the ES300 or A4 1.8T boards and see what the percentage is of A4 shoppers/buyers who actually looked at and bought ES300s and A4 1.8ts.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    you read my mind. sweet post. minor note: most recently, the G20 had 145hp, next year's I model will be the I35 and not I30, and the former A4 1.8T had 150hp (assuming no extra emissions controls).
    ~alpha
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Is how they compete. They all cost $28k-35k. Granted, the direct competitors to the ES are the TL and I30, but most people shop based on cost. That would then include the IS300, the A4 and the 325i as well.

    And yet the Audi is faster with a manual tranny and 40 less hp. So is the BMW with 26 less horses. The Germans seem to be able to get more out of each hp than the Japanese. The ES and I30 both have more hp than the A4 and 325i, yet the Lex and Infiniti are slower. It's not how much hp you have, it's how you get it to the pavement.
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    Considering the new ES300 is not going to be available until October, it is unusual that the official pictures and reviews are out before those of the new Camry which, I thought, hits the street in September.

    It might be marketing hype to say "The ES300 is not based on the Camry. It was designed before the Camry ... blah bladiblah."
    (Eyes roll worldwide.)
  • bielenbielen Member Posts: 1
    Check out http://www.InsideLexus.com for all the details on the new ES 300. Interesting info about the nav system.


    So does anyone think there is a big enough difference to warrant a trade-in?

This discussion has been closed.