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Lexus ES 300/ES 330
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Comments
I need to see the car in person. I also need to see the new Camry.
Unfortunately, I can't think of any car in this price range that has an eye-catching exterior. The Acura TL (and RL for that matter), Infiniti I30, Nissan Maxima, and Audi A6 all are about the same with non-inspiring style.
The only vehicle I've seen that seems to break the mold is Infiniti's G35, which will be introduced next spring. The grill on it is a bit too big, but it is stylish and distinctive. Unfortunately, it is rear-wheel drive. I live in Colorado and would prefer a front-wheel (or all wheel) drive during the winter.
Anyone has any suggestions. I have a rear-drive Mercedes E320 and really would prefer front or all-wheel drive.
About the engine, here's my theory, and I'd appreciate feedback....
It seems logical, IMO, that Lexus would hold off putting a more powerful variant in the ES this year. Why? b/c the GS series is entering its final year of this iteration, so once that car is redesigned, probably given a hp and torque boost, perhaps Lexus will do the same with the ES. but for now, why would Lexus want the ES to outpower the larger, more expensive GS300? I think that would kill sales. Its a trickle down effect, and since the Camry can't step on the ES's toes, it might see a boost as well, if the ES gets one in the future... but that's probably only after the Avalon gets the same improvements as the ES.
~Does this make sense to anyone else?
The headlights look like every other new Toyota in the last couple of years (e.g. the Celica), and the trunk area has been noticeably shortened (like the new Avalon and GS Lexi). Not to my tastes, but then, that's why there are other brands of cars out there.
Automobile will provide a complete test of the new Camry next month. I'll wait to see what it looks like. BTW, the Camry SE (Sport Edition) is back!
I won't miss the 2-tone paint on the ES though. That "look' was really getting dated.
If ES stands for "Executive Sedan", then I feel Lexus missed the target. IMHO, they could rename it the CES300, for "Common Everyday Sedan".
All that being said, I agree with max that Lexus will probably sell all they can get.
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/2002-LexusES300/index.htm
David
BTW, my mother-in-law just retired and she wants to buy a Lexus. She won't be doing any major hauling, but safety is a priority. This would be her last car and my wife and I want her to get something really nice to reward herself. Should she wait for the '02 ES300 or go for the RX300? She current drives a '97 Camry.
Comments please!!
please don't ruin your Lex by "dressing it up" with one of these.
~alpha
The light grey/blue color in the photos with matching plastic-looking grill is ultra-bland and looks cheap.
I don't think it looks very good in the back either. I think the tail lights ar too small with way too much "white space" below the trunk lid. At least they put some chrome around the tail lights.
The interior looked good except that the tan leather in the tested car was dreary. It would be nice if they offer a very light grey or light beige interior like I think is available on the new SC coupe to brighten up the inside. It may also look better with a black interior.
Maybe the right color combinations on the car can salvage the looks somewhat.
Check out the below link:
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/Acura32TL/Photos.htm
The only Lexus that appears to have stolen sales form the ES300 is th RX300. In the future the Acura TL-S and Infiniti I35 may take away sales from the ES300 because they have established a new standard for peformance in the luxury market 260 horsepower.
Lexus has made the false assumption that people are either interested in a sport sedan devoid of luxury (IS300) or a luxury sedan with the emphasis on a cushy ride and little else. Most of the people I know want luxury, performance, and handling.
The GS300 is available for them.
The biggest problem for the 2002 ES300 is not that 210HP is inadequate, but the fact that the styling has suddenly gone from one of the best styled to one of the worse in this class.
The front end is definately distinctive and it links the 2002 to the 2001 ES300. Looks similar yet different. The side profile is totally different from the old ES300, that is mostly due to the fact that the car has risen almost 3" in height and the framed doors replacing the frameless doors of the previous ES300.
The only part that I don't like is the rear end. What happened? The rear end seems like someone other than who styled the front and sides styled it. The lights overall aren't bad, but the Benz knock-off licence plate surround looks out of place. And the tailights seem a bit small. And that chrome trim around the tailights has got to go.
The interior is smashing! Very nice! The dash looks very upscale and elegant. hunter001, the interior looks nothing like the 3.2TLs. Gated shifter? that's a benz trademark and the LS400 has had it since 1995, and the GS300/400/430 has had it since 1998. you see similarities in the rear A/C vents? What else shape are A/C vents supposed to be other than retangular?
The TL's interior looks like *Ramada* compared to the ES300s interior, which I could best describe as *ritz carlton*.
agree!!
The biggest problem for the 2002 ES300 is not that 210HP is inadequate, but the fact that the styling has suddenly gone from one of the best styled to one of the worse in this class.
Agree on styling.
I think most people -- in this class of car -- want a car that performs well (or at least close to competition), has a luxury feel, and has classy styling, with a decent value.
From what i can tell, none of the entrants do well in all categories (acura is weak in luxury and styling but good in all else -- bmw is weak in value and space and lexus is now weak in performance and perhaps styling).
personally, my wife has the TL and it meets all of the "specs" except two -- don't really care for the sheet metal (looks) and it's not particularly FUN to drive...
I guess we were all spoiled ten years ago with the styling on the Acura Legend, Lexus ES300, Lexus LS400, Nissan Maxima, Toyota Camry, and others. I think most of those cars, even today, are more exciting than the 2000+ models.
It seems likely every new generation from Japan gets more and more boring!
I planned to buy the 2002 ES300, but don't know that I want to look at that car every day. I just picked up the Motor Trend and, unfortunately, that is what the car looks like. I keep hoping this is a dream and I wake up with a car that looks like one of the design drawings. On a positive note, the interior looks great.
Automakers - please...please...pretty please bring style back to the luxury car marketplace. I'll pay $40K, but not for a car that looks like the original Ford Taurus.
I, like everyone else, want luxury, sport, and value. If someone finds something, let me know.
If you want sporty, buy BMW 3 series.
Post your comments about the review here, or if you'd like, provide your feedback - for possible publication on the Edmunds site - by emailing editor@edmunds.com.
So what do you think?
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
There may be faster cars and sportier cars, but they are for someone else. For me, the new ES just about has it all.
(Sidenote: Although a Toyota fan, I feel that in this category, the Acura TL-S represents the best VALUE, but not that it is necessarily the best car.
Sidenote 2: If I was out of school and had the capital to invest on a great car like those that are offered in the "entry luxury" or "entry sports luxury" category, I'd pick the IS300 5sp...)
I bought my ES300 new in Jan 00 and heard the same noise. I tried 2 new ES300's at the dealer while mine was having a complimentary oil change. Both had the same noise. Could not get an answer as to what it is. I tend to turn the key to ON and let all the electronics snap, crackle and pop for about 5 seconds before I start the car. The noise starts as soon as I slide the key in the lock and continues until I start the car. Only happens on the first start every day. I just turned 17k mi and the car runs fine so I'm letting sleeping dogs lie.
I also hear a small snap or something the first time I turn the wheel going out of the drive on the first ride of the day. No other time. Sounds like something in the front suspension, but again no problems so I'm leaving it alone. So far I like the car but am looking for a 2000 LS for more comfortable seats. Can't seem to tilt the bottom of this seat enough. Last car was a Diamante and the seat was much better.
Chip
I don't own a Lexus and I don't plan on buying one anytime soon, but I wanted to throw in my $0.02 on the 2002 ES300's styling. First of all, I'll reserve final judgment until I see one in person, but, like many of you, I don't like the styling, based on the photos I've seen thus far.
To me, it looks more like a Daewoo than a Lexus, perhaps like a Super Leganza, if one ever existed. (IMO the Leganza is pretty sharp for a sub-$20K family sedan, but I wouldn't want *my* $35K Lexus to look like one.) The grille looks unimaginative and generic. I can't stand it when Japanese and Korean auto manufacturers (or anyone else, for that matter, but they're the ones who offend the most in this regard) use the generic four- or five-strip horizontal bar grille. Come up with something more creative, for goodness sakes!!!
The swept-back headlights are heavily used by Toyota's design studios these days, but they do not belong on this car. They look out of place and do not fit in with the design "theme". The greenhouse looks too small on a car this long and tall. The exterior looks too slab-sided, and that character ridge that runs just above the door handles just doesn't work; it enhances the extreme height of the sheetmetal relative to the short windows. The section above the rear wheels look particularly fat. This is not a lean and elegant design by any means.
The car's wheels and tires look too small, which is something that the Avalon suffers from as well. The shade of light metallic blue and the multi-spoke alloy wheels makes the familycar.com's test car look like a Prius on steroids.
On the other hand, the interior looks positively smashing. The Acura TL is a total embarrassment by comparison. It definitely looks like a $40,000 car in there. Increased usage of burl walnut certainly helped here.
Why only 210 hp? That should be enough for most drivers, nevertheless, especially with a 0-60 time of 8.1 seconds. Drivers who want a quicker, more powerful car probably wouldn't go for a Lexus anyway. Still, the Acura TL and Infiniti I35 are well ahead in this regard. I'd expect to see an increase in displacement in a couple of years, maybe a 3.2 liter V6 that puts out 235 hp or so. (This is just a guess on my part.)
To sum up, all of the above statements are my opinions, so if you really like the 2002 ES300, I am happy for you. I might like it once I get a chance to see the car in person as well. I remember when the current VW Jetta was released a couple of years ago; I hated the photos, but, after seeing it in person, I think it's the best-looking small sedan sold in the US. And the other Japanese sedans in this segment are nothing to write home about either, from a styling perspective.
The 2002 ES300 will be a sales success, I'm sure. This car will still press all the right buttons for those who represent the target buyer group. I'd rather take a VW Passat W8 or an Acura TL Type-S instead, though.
PS - Sorry for the length of this message.
"We don't have to develop a car that tries to be all
things to all people," Lexus group Vice President Denny
Clements stated, and we feel that there's a certain
amount of honor in acknowledging a car's limitations.
Many people simply don't give a fig about the
performance potential of an automobile. A car is a
conveyance, not a form of entertainment, and if they're
lucky enough, their vehicle will also convey to onlookers
the idea that they've achieved a certain level of success.
For those consumers, the ES 300 will have tremendous
appeal. "
I think this is a cop out for not doing anything to the engine. I can't remember the last time that the next generation of a car, especially in this segment, didn't have at the very least, a token increase in horsepower. The current 3.0L engine in the Maxima has more HP than the ES so I find it hard to believe that Lexus couldn't find a few more ponys without much expense for marketing purposes even if they are planning on replacing the engine when the new GS3XX comes out.
In a prior post, I commented on the sluggishness of the automatic in my '99 ES to downshift. The following quote is taken from the first drive review:
"The V6 has been mated to a new transmission,
upgraded from a four-speed to a closer-ratio five-gear
unit. Upshifts are crisp enough, but downshifts are
sludgy and come only after the car thinks about it for a
while. Under most normal driving circumstances, it's
perfectly acceptable, but trying to wring some spirit out
of the ES 300 is more of an exercise in futility; it's as if
some goblin had poured butterscotch sauce into the
fluid reservoir."
Believe me when I say that I have seen this complaint about most Lexus models in MANY car magazines over the years. How long is it going to take to address these issues?
~alpha
exterior - looks the most expensive. how it's styled is up for debate but it looks the most expensive.
transmission - Toyota makes the best transmissions in the business.
engine - this is the one area that Toyota isn't tops in...but i'm sure it'll be very smooth and 210HP means that no one will have trouble merging in traffic... it's not a rocket by any means but with the new 5 speed tranny...it'll be quicker than the last generation.
suspension - Lexus went with the multi-link rear suspension...not a bad move!
Also, Lexus wanted the ES engine to attain a ULEV rating in all 50 states. I don't believe any competing car has that.
And when the 5 series was redone, it went from having 3 models (525i, 530i, 540i) to 2 models (528i and 540i - they dropped the 3.0 liter V8). The 528i was an upgrade from the 525i.
As for the A4, I don't consider a 4-cylinder turbo engine comparable to a V6. It's less powerful and nowhere near as smooth and quiet. What I meant was cars like the Acura TL. The engine in that car, for example, is only ULEV in California while the TL-S engine isn't at all.
You may not consider it to be competition, but the rest of the world does.
Please excuse my ignorance, I guess I need to be educated on this topic: why is the ULEV rating so important? Is this something that is required to sell cars in certain states?
lsc:
I agree that Toyota has the best transmissions in the business, especially in terms of reliability and smoothness but is it asking too much for an automatic that downshifts into 2nd without so much hesitation? The 'drive by wire' system should make for even faster detection of throttle position changes thus translating into a faster command to the transmission to downshift. The only thing I can think of is there is some mechanical limitation that would compromise shift smoothness for faster downshifts.
BTW, the interior may be the best effort yet by Lexus. IMHO, it is drop dead gorgeous!
Of course it should. It clearly OUTPRICES everything else. $38K loaded with navigation and no discounts?!
Will it really have $8,000 worth of wood and higher grade plastic than a TL that is available discounted to $30K with navigation?
There is no reason to compare an ES300 with a Type-S TL since even the base TL outpowers the the ES300 and has a smoother, quieter engine that better compares to the Lexus than the rumbling 260HP version with the hard sport suspension.
I haven't seen a figure for the 1.8T auto, but at 8.15 sec to 60 (Motor Trend, Sept 2001) the ES 300 is quick enough, and I really dont see how 170hp in the A4 with the could beat that by anything more that like .2 seconds.
~alpha
s852-pricing hasnt been set yet. where are you quoting from? for now, like the Altima, its all speculation.
You are correct. Manufacturers can smoothen out the shifts of the transmission, which would result in sloppier but imperceptible shifts which gives the illusion of "smoothness". The other option is to have crisper and faster shifts which could come across as "not so smooth" to the driver. Basically, the challenge for manufacturers is to find the golden balance. How much of "smoothness" should be sacrificed for better and faster shifts ?!!! Lexus correctly reads its customer base and goes for the imperceptible, smooth (but mechanically sluggish) way of shifting the automatic transmission, which is what its customers want. Nothing wrong with that.
The Lexus IS300 is an exception to this rule but then the target audience is certainly different in case of the IS.
Later...AH
Let us take the 1.8L 4-banger Audi engine out of this comparison.
Later...AH
~alpha
Both cars are totally different.
The ES300 is 191" long, the A4 is 176"
The ES300 is strictly FWD, the A4 FWD or AWD.
The ES300 auto. only, the A4 auto and manual.
The A4 1.8T starts in the mid $20K range, the ES300 starts in the low $30K range.
that's a different ballpark. Now, the A4 2.8/3.0 does compete with the ES300 as well as the IS300 because of it's price.
If the A4 1.8T competes with the ES300 that means the G20 also competes with the ES300. Yeah, right!
It is quite easy to surmise that Lexus is targeting 2 different kinds of customers within the same price range with the IS300 and ES300.
And I'd say most A4 shoppers are looking at $30k+ cars. The BMW 325xi and the A4 were the final 2 to make the cut for me when I was looking. MSRP on my A4 was $29,600, just a shade under $30k. The Bimmer would have been about $32-33k.
Hunter, why does the 1.8T not compete? Is it because it has too much of a price advantage over the ES? It is just about the same acceleration-wise (auto to auto, the ES is probably a couple of tenths faster). They are both entry level lux sedans.
"The 2002 ES is quieter, smoother, more elegant and refined than the current model, and it successfully erases most of the palpable links it had to its plebian platrom-mate, the Toyota Camry."
"This simple stylishness [the exterior] continues inside, with a thin swath of polished California walnut wood trim... The rest of the interior's surfaces are dressed in either leather -- the same quality leather used in Lexus' flagship LS 430 -- tastefully placed chrome bits or soft-touch plastic in two tones ..."
"... it disappoints a bit in the power department ... driving up hills we found ourselves wanting for more power ..."
One comment of my own: Seeing photos, even lots of them, of a new car doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. It may give quite a different impression in person (look at, for example, the Lexus SC 430), and sometimes one's opinion of a car's looks changes over time. I hope this is the case with the new ES.
I'm a bit surprised that you see the A4 1.8T & the ES 300 as competitors. When my wife & I were shopping for a car for her in late 98/early 99, we looked at the Infiniti I30 (rejected because my wife couldn't get comfortable behind the wheel) & the Acura TL (put off by trim flaws in early production cars). At that time, Audi was substantially rebating leftover '98 A6's, so we visited our local Audi store & drove one. Liked it but didn't buy one because my wife didn't like the colors of any of the rebate-eligible cars in stock. We didn't bother looking at the A4 because we both perceived it as qualitatively different from any of the other cars under consideration. The A4 emphasized sports while the others emphasized luxury, & luxury is what my wife wanted. She wound up with the ES 300 & she still loves it.
When I was shopping for myself 2 years later, I checked out the 3-series BMW, the A4 & the IS 300. Didn't bother looking at any of the FWD Japanese luxury nameplates. Drove the A4 (a Quattro 1.8T 5-speed) & loved it. Drove a 5-speed BMW, loved it a bit more & bought it. (Didn't bother driving the IS because it was auto only at the time. I'd certainly drive it today, though, if I was still in the market.) Although the ES shares price points with these cars, it's not an enthusiast's car & is thus not a true competitor. My wife loves her ES & wants to be buried in it, but I'd much rather have an A4 (particularly a 5-speed Quattro 1.8T) for myself. I just don't see the 2 as real competitors.
I will surely say the A4 competes against the IS300 not the ES300, and I can surely say the G35 will compete against the IS300, not the ES300. It really is quite simple to come to that conclusion. Sure, before the IS300 came out, I'm sure alot of A4 shoppers looked at the ES300, and some probably still do, but the A4 is not a direct competitor to the ES300, especially not the A4 1.8T. Again that is because of price, size, power, handling, drivetrain availability.
Yes, your A4 cost $29K, and how much would a base ES300 and a loaded 2002 ES300 cost? $33K base and about $39K loaded. It's obvious those 2 cars are not in the same ballpark, in any logical person's mind.
The BMW 3-series competes to a greater degree with the ES300 because it is closer in price, a base 325i costs about $28K and a loaded one will run close to $40K. That is in the ES300s ballpark. But still I would bet on it, that not too many 325i or 330i shoppers go looking at the ES300 anymore. instead they would go looking at the IS300.
The G20 does have only 140bhp, and the A4 1.8T had 148bhp and now has 170bhp. Still far off the ES300s level.
Please understand the concept of Lexus luring 2 totally different types of buyers, on the whole, into their showrooms in the same price range. The IS300 for sports sedan shoppers, the ES300 for luxury sedan buyers.
The IS300 would compete with the 3-series, A4, C-class, upcmoning G35.
The ES300 competes more with the C-class, I30, 3.2TL.
Here's an idea: did you compare your A4 to the ES300 when shopping? Also, do a survey on the ES300 or A4 1.8T boards and see what the percentage is of A4 shoppers/buyers who actually looked at and bought ES300s and A4 1.8ts.
~alpha
And yet the Audi is faster with a manual tranny and 40 less hp. So is the BMW with 26 less horses. The Germans seem to be able to get more out of each hp than the Japanese. The ES and I30 both have more hp than the A4 and 325i, yet the Lex and Infiniti are slower. It's not how much hp you have, it's how you get it to the pavement.
It might be marketing hype to say "The ES300 is not based on the Camry. It was designed before the Camry ... blah bladiblah."
(Eyes roll worldwide.)
So does anyone think there is a big enough difference to warrant a trade-in?