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Lexus ES 300/ES 330
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Comments
The HP/TQ war hasnt, thus far, involved the Germans in any class, and with the Japanese/Americans is really only pervasive in the upper echelon of family sedans, and the transitioning near lux models. (Yes, I recognize the existence of AMG and M tuning, but when I say the Germans havent participated, I mean on the wider, less elite scale of the 30-50K sedan)
Back to the ES- where is the Press Release that contains pricing info? Has one been issued yet?
~alpha
Does anybody know if the 2004 ES 330 is available yet? Is it a significant upgrade from the 2003 ES 300 (other than the engine)?
As to your question, the airbag warning stickers are meant to be permanent. If you try to remove them you will almost certainly ruin the material on the visors.
As for a previous comment about the Camry getting a hp boost for 2004, it is my understanding that only the Camry SE model is getting the 3.3L engine. The other V6 Camrys will stick with the 3.0L.
~alpha
However, this is in keeping with Lexus tradition of doing something to add value. Many times, as models get into their 3rd and 4th years, Lexus will bundle optional equipment into the price and has the window sticker reflect some type of "savings package" (although that's not the case with the 2004 ES). The 2002 and 2003 RX 300s had this, along with a $2,000 savings.
BTW, I moved up to an LS430, that the dealer later damaged because of careless placements of the jack (the fuel tank was crushed). I now have an ultralux LS430, and I will tell you that Lexus quality is more myth than substance, at least in my experience with three Lexus cars.
I probably will not buy a Lexus again. Caveat Emptor.
Larger, more powerful engine.
20/29 fuel economy (vs. 21/29 in the ES300)
Improved automatic transmission
Leather interior is now standard
Because leather is standard, the price of the Premium package drops. Also, the price of the top end Levinson/Navigation package drops to $3100. If I were buying with my own money, I'd have splurged, but it put it over what my company allows, so I have to do without navigation.
Bottom line is that my ES330 is about $800 less than it would have cost me to buy the same equipment in the ES300.
My price was $1400 off list ($31950 vs $33350). I started with Carbargains.com (cost me $195) to get $1,000 off, then told the dealer I'd buy an Infiniti G35 if he couldn't do better, so he took another $400 off.
I drove at least a dozen cars in this class and there's absolutely no comparison. The ES300 (which is what I actually drove) is the quietest, most luxurious car under $35,000 in the world. I can't imagine that the ES330 would be any different.
Same transmission as what? The ES300? Did he make a distinction between same transmission with same shift logic vs. same transmission with different shift logic, which appears to be the case as per the 04 Press Release. Perhaps its just me, but I'm not really clear on what you are saying.
Also, am I correct to believe that the 04 Solara V6 and 04 ES330 share the same gearbox? If they do, Car and Driver, in their one page "Short Take" (Oct 04) on the new Solara, used an entire paragraph to laud the transmission, for what thats worth.
~alpha
Owners: are they adequate? Will they hold, say, a 16-oz water bottle? A big gulp? A small gulp? Has anyone experienced any spills while cornering at 60mph or so?
Thanks.
First of all Lexus (Corporate) positively and clearly states there is aboslutely no problem with the transmission. I spoke with two Manufacturers Reps for Lexus in Atlanta. Of course this begs the question..... if there is no problem... why in the world did they send this to eveyone who owns an '02 and '03 ES 300. This is absolutely ludicrous.
Despite the fact that there positively is NO PROBLEM. They boths said this enchancement DEFINITELY POSITIVELY will fix the problem ("which doesn't exist"). The very term "ENHANCEMENT" merely implies an improvement and not an absolute correction. Questioning this meaning I spoke with Sterling McCall Lexus in Houston and asked if this is the final fix we have all been waiting for. They WOULD NOT PROMISE this will correct the problem, but "may" make it better. I called both Reps. and left a message asking them to send me a letter stating this was the final guaranteed fix. I'll bet some pretty good odds I never see that letter.
You will note that they completely disclaim any benefit to the enhancement noting that "performance remains substantially the same". If it's not going to do much for the car, why should I waste more time at the dealership. I don't want it to remain the same, I want my car to go when I push the gas pedal.
Isn't it nice that they won't charge us anything for the "enchancement" that will positively fix the problem which doesn't exist. These are really good people at Lexus.
The last thing is very disturbing. "Please note that due to the nature of software reprogramming, once your software has been updated, it will not be possible to return the software to the previous version." What the heck does that mean? It sounds to me like a disclaimer and release. Another words.... if you have this done they are no longer responsible for the workmanship of the vehicle. .... very disturbing.
I'm so glad they are interested in my continued satisfaction with the vehicle.
Feel free to discuss this further with Atlanta's Reps. They have thoroughly rehearsed their corporate talking points. It's almost funny as they stutter a bit trying to remember the exact words that Legal has told them to say. rtorreca, aceking2000, capt386, kymmy123, kreativ, jimxo, ruggedland, rdlxmpls, atoews, vcheng, concord1, nogermancar and anyone else who has used words like "near accident", "worry", "danger", "collision", "crap","lemon","BIG problem", "shuddering", "slipping", "surging", etc.... feel free to give them a call and let them tell you it's all in your imagination. "But they positively fixed the problem (that doesn't exist) with the enhancement (that they won't guarantee)and be warned that there's no turning back once you've had the enhancement performed."
This is all pretty scary.
QUESTION TO THE MONITOR OF THIS WEBSITE - Why don't you direct the discussion about transmission to that specific website so this one can be used for more general discussions?
For months the predominate postings on this one have been from a few chronic complainers about unhappiness with their transmission.
"You can find a Lexus has also revised the standard five-speed automatic transmission for the 2004 ES 330, matching it to the performance of the larger engine. Wider gear ratios take advantage of the increased torque while enabling the ES 330 to achieve virtually the same EPA-estimated fuel efficiency ratings as the previous model (20 MPG city/29 MPG highway vs. 21/29 for the 2003 ES 300).
New grade logic enables the five-speed transmission to provide improved performance in hills, delaying upshifts to sustain power on inclines and holding a lower gear for increased engine braking on descents. Shifting smoothness has been improved in all conditions."
Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the 2003 'fix' involved programming. They claim wider gear ratios for the 2004. You can't do that with programming changes, can you? Seems to me that if the gear ratios are changed, there have been major changes in the tranny.
Lexus won't fix this very dangerous problem obviously because it costs too much. They will try these superficial adjustments hoping to stall the complaints.
Please contact the National Transportation Safety Administration and file your complaints. Bad press is the best action against Lexus right now. If you try and resell your car, be prepared for the massive drop in value.
I can't believe in my heart that Lexus is really consistently producing a piece of junk like this. I just can't believe I didn't notice this obvious, dangerous, quality defect the first 2 times I bought the car!!!
Just my opinion. Edmunds is supposed to be a friendly, helpful site...let's keep it that way, shall we!!
The Sandman :-)
The really funny part is reading of the "lousily engineered drivetrain" and then that very same post says "I PROBABLY will not buy a Lexus again." PROBABLY? If quality is more myth than substance and if the drivetrain is lousy, why would that person consider a Lexus again? What more would Lexus have to really screw up to keep that person from using the word DEFINITELY instead of probably? I don't get it.
Having designed faulty cupholders, and not wanting to undergo the enormous expense of redesigning them, Lexus intentionally produced a faulty transmission, making it impossible to accelerate quickly, thus preventing hot coffee spills which could lead to fatal crashes and numerous lawsuits.
There's a method to their madness. Thus, don't look for a transmission fix until Lexus redesigns their cupholders!
All of these upgrades will be available in a new "ultimate package". The total price of the car is expected to come in a few hundred dollars below the 2004 model.
Will there be class action suits that we can cash in on?
in 1996 I seriously compared Maxima and Camry LE V6, and found Maxima downshifts in very short time to 1st gear, but Camry is noticeably shower as I could feel and hear it goes from gear to gear down to 1st. That was the only last-minute comparison that I decided to buy Max. Both were 4-speed auto.
Whether it's a defective transmission or not is probably not well defined. Is there a spec saying when flooring the acceleration pedal the transmission will shift from overdrive (4th or 5th) to 1st within xyz second? Maybe there is an internal controlled spec that design engineers know. Yes there is some spec like 40 to 65 MPH time, but that does not necessary mean the car downshifts quick. It's a combination of downshift time and the acceleration. My 86 Sentra dhownshifted no problem but never fast enough to speed up.
1. I must admit that the complaints regarding the ES transmission make me wonder how in the world Lexus sells so many of these junkers. I don't get it.
To call the ES300 a "junker" is an exaggeration. It is a well built car that targets the entry-luxury market very successfully. I considered it primarily because it is the only front wheel drive sedan that Lexus makes, since I live is western NY where the winters can be snowy.
2. That topic must represent 50% of the posts here.
I agree with this statement, but one cause of this may be the fact that this is perhaps the only major flaw in an otherwise good car.
3. I try to buy one and the dealers in the Midwest want close to MSRP, yet I see all of these people who hate their ES 300.
Whether dealers want MSRP or reduce the price is simple free market economics. And again "hate" is an exaggeration I think. For me personally, the drivetrain characterisitcs were irritating to the point that I could not tolerate owning the thing for very long. I also was fortunate enough to have enough money to simply trade up. That may not be an option for some, in which case the frustration would tend to build up.
4. The really funny part is reading of the "lousily engineered drivetrain"
What is funny about that? I base my comments from an astute knowledge of cars, and having owned and driven several ES300s Do you own one, or have you driven one for any extended period time? Read my previous posts, and you will see that I have tried to evaluate the issue fairly sensibly. Consider: a) The ES300 5 speed transmission creates a drivetrain shudder at about 40-45 mph under light load conditions as soon as the torque converter locks up. b) There is a marked delay in downshifting to the point that if you are in need of quick accelaration (such as to merge) and you floor the throttle, the car will buck mightily, bog down, wait at least a second or more, and then take off like it should have done in the first place. Now also consider that other comparable automatic transmissions, both by Lexus and other manufacturers, do not exhibit these characteristics to this very noticeable extent. This is what I mean by this particular drivetrain being lousily engineered. Could you please explain what is funny about this description?
5. and then that very same post says "I PROBABLY will not buy a Lexus again." PROBABLY? If quality is more myth than substance and if the drivetrain is lousy, why would that person consider a Lexus again?
I have stated that the current ES300 drivetrain is lousy. That does not mean that all Lexuses have poor transmissions. I have no complaints about the LS430 drivetrain. So I would consider a Lexus again when the time comes, only if I think I would like the car. I will not let one bad design preclude me from considering other models by the same manufacturer. Then again, I might go with another make. Or even consider the ES300 again, if the problem has indeed been fixed. Hence I used the word "probably". If you read my statements with better comprehension, I have said that "in my experience" I have found more mythical than real quality. I trust that you get my point of view now perhaps a little bit better.
6. What more would Lexus have to really screw up to keep that person from using the word DEFINITELY instead of probably? I don't get it.
Well, there are bigger things that could spoil my ownership experience further. I can think of several, but the odds are that will not happen. If something disastrous does happen, then I would use the word definitely.
Overall, I was amused by your post, and would like to hear more of your opinion after you have had a chance to assimilate my diatribe.
Oh, and by the way, the cupholders have not been improved, so what did you expect from the transmission?
I think my frustration is that I keep reading all of these negative posts, but when I go to buy an ES 300 (now the 330), they want close to MSRP AND my first-born child. So I'm just thinking that a heck of a lot more people must really love these cars than the number of people who have serious problems.
But I get your points and the tone of your response is DEFINITELY worth copying.
I should state that "real, live people" that I ask about their ES 300s have never mentioned the transmission problems. That may be because they don't have any problems, or maybe we all just like to think that our car is a good one. But I just talked to a lady (probably a very mild driver) who said this was the best car she ever had.
So I guess it really is an individual experience.
That lady is probably correct: It could be the "best car that SHE has had" but it could still have those problems. Overall, it is a nice car save for a "lousily engineered" transmission, and *perhaps* lousy cupholders too
"I can't believe it! 2004 CLK500 already in the shop. I only had it a week! Electronic Ignition System (EIS) was faulty. Well, that;s what I'm being told anyway. Intermittent problem being able to start the car." - pp
"Welcome to the world of new MB vehicles. Mine is in the gararage the 3rd time in 8 months. As long as they give a better car as replacement it works...." - hm
"Hang in there. Have you seen my service record for 6 months of ownership?" Missery loves company, right? My 01 CLK 430 was a nightmare with many problems (although the dealer really screwed up the engine leading to a replacement engine) and that's why I got rid of it and got a late production 03 500 that's also is having lots of problems. ( you can read about them in the tech section in a post titled ? for Patrick and other MB Techs) That's my luck" - RJC
"I never thought a Mercedes Benz quality would be this bad, My clk 500 had been to the shop over 8 times already, and I get a new problem every month or so, nothing major, but its annoying to spend this much money and end up in the service drive more than the car wash." - hani
(excerpts from an MB forum)
~alpha
Anyway, now I want the 330. I hate this stupid transmission.