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Lexus ES 300/ES 330
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Comments
After we bought it, I did the slow down (to near complete stop), gave quick gas, stop, quick gas, etc.
I felt very slight delay but not enought to call it a hesitation.
Is this mean,
1. I didn't test it right or
2. Our car is okay? Do all 2005 ES330s have the hesitation problem (engine or drive by wire design flaw)?
Thanks.
After we bought it, I did the slow down (to near complete stop), gave quick gas, stop, quick gas, etc.
I felt very slight delay but not enought to call it a hesitation. Is this mean,
1. I didn't test it right or
2. Our car is okay? Do all 2005 ES330s have the hesitation problem (engine or drive by wire design flaw)?
Thanks.
NipponDenso, Denso US' engine management systems, which most asian manufacturers use including Toyota/Lexus, apparently has adopted a lean burn, lean combustion technique to further enhance fuel economy and lower emissions.
I have begun to suspect that vehicles slightly nore subject to engine knocking/pinging, even in just one cylinder, in the lean burn mode are the ones most readily exhibiting the engine/throttle hesitation symptom.
If that is truly the case then almost any engine can begin to exhibit the symptom somewhere in its life cycle.
That would also fully explain why Toyota/Lexus' recommended solution is to switch to premium fuels and that some owners are now on record saying that solution does seem to help.
Planning to lease a lexus ES 330 end of feb in NJ. Want
- Navigation System, Mark Levinson Audio
- 17" all weather tires
- Heated & Ventilated Seats, High Intensity Headlights
- interior/ext color does not matter
Wanted to put down as little as possible.
Will return car at the end of lease.
Any suggestions on what a decent monthly lease payment should be?
Thanks in advance - Sanjay
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Shopped around, nothing really stands out below $20K. Saw Civic, Accord, Camry, then pushed up to V6 Camry then got mesmerized by used ES300 which led us to the Lexus dealer.
Bought a 2005 ES330 loaner car and saved quite a bit of $$$. Very nice (wood interior upgraded) car indeed. Interior, all I can say is every button is in a perfect location. Sorry V6 Camry XLE, ES330 is much nicer.
Wife happy. Asked her about RX330, she said she's okay with ES330 for the next 5 years (she is so frugal . . ha ha).
Should I've gotten the RX330? Anyone out there thought about the RX330 and got the ES330 instead? Or am I the only one?
Thanks.
planning to lease a 2006 ES330, live in NJ & not very comfortable driving in snow...what kind of tires do you folks recommend (make, model ??)....looking for all-weather tires so I do not have to switch during summer. Thanks - Sanjay
I was quoted as $33,999 for 2006,ES330 !FULLY LOADED.I'm in South florida.
"I have an excellent selection of new 2006 ES 330s of various colors and options packages for you to choose from.
The Navigation/Levinson Package 2006 ES 330 features the perforated leather interior with ventilated and cooled seats, power moonroof, HID headlights, vehicle stability control, wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob, adjustable pedals, power rear sunshade, six- disc CD auto-changer, 17" wheel and tire package, and carpet floor mats.
The preferred accessories package (trunk mat, wheel locks, and a cargo net) is also included.
I am offering the new 2006 Navigation/Levinson Package ES 330 to you at a special Internet Price of only
$33999.00!Of course, this price does not include sales tax, tag, and dealer's fees."
Please advice,
thanks,
AK
Good luck - let us know how it goes!
I just have a quick question for anyone that may have a spare moment to respond....
I am thinking about buying a 06 ES330 and was wondering what the overall driving experiences people have had with this car....I have read some of the consumer reviews.....and most seem positive.....but my question would be as such...
Does the car have enough power to let's say merge on the highway?...pass on the highway? (quickly when the need arises).....does it do well while driving in snow country? (i.e. midwest)...and just the overall ride.....is there any rattles in the interior?....allot of road noise?.....is it the true luxury experience? We don't need a sports car that can go from 0-60 in 4 seconds....and we don't really want a car that is marketed towards the retirement age people (please, no disrespect intended to anyone).....the ES330 is in our price range and seems like it may fit the bill....but by asking current owners we can get a feel of what everyones thinks......now we know in the end it is our decision....and it is either you like it or you don't....but any input would be much appreciated.....
Our experience was extremely positive. We found nothing of any concern and the overall driving experience was excellent for both city and highway conditions. the only thing we didn't use was the nav system so we cannot comment there.(didn't really need it)
It rode well; handled well; was very quiet with no rattles or noticeable wind or road noise; accelleration was more than adequate; and it seemed not to notice the occasional time when there were 4 heavy duty adults aboard.
It handled fine in the two really big snowfalls we've had so far this year; there seems to be more than adequate passing response on the highway; and we were pleasantly surprised at the very good fuel economy of this vehicle.
Overall it was a very pleasant automobile to drive in--as good as any we've experienced. There was no doubt this is a luxury vehicle and we wouldn't hesitate to own one.
One note of caution. Your inquiry will no doubt elicit a few negatives.
One of those may talk to the hesitation issue which has been kicked around to a degree by some folks.
There seems to be a concerted effort by a few outspoken individuals to have it declared a widespread epidemic, a serious safety hazard, severe when it occurs, affects many models of Lexus and Toyota, etc--generally a very damning criticism of this automaker.
We would suggest caution in letting any such condemnations influence a purchase decision. Take one for a long test drive and decide for yourself.
We didn't notice anything of the sort. In our opinion, the condemnations have been mostly overhyped, and some almost seemed intentional propaganda.
Mainly highway miles while we had it, and it averaged between 7.5 and 8 Litres per 100 Kilometers on regular 87 octane fuel.(roughly 32/34 miles per Imperial gallon). Speeds were averaging 100 to 110 Kilometers per Hour.(roughly 60/65 MPH). This was a non stop Autoroute--approx. 300 kilometers on Highway 401 between Windsor and Toronto--pretty much flat the whole way.
In terms of your smaller US gallon, I would guess what we experienced would translate to around 26/28 MPG for you.
This mileage is about the same as our Avalon, but MUCH better than our Silverado.(5.3 Litre V8-- it gets about 20 MPG for the same route!!).
We are currently paying about $1.00 per litre (about $4.50 Cdn. per gallon) for gas here in Ontario, so good mileage is bloody important!!
Our overall experience with the car has been very positive. There have been no significant problems with the car.
In response to your specific questions, I think that if you are not looking for a sports car you will be very satisfied with the acceleration. It is surprisingly strong around town (will easily smoke the tires on dry pavement with the traction control off) and more than adequate passing/merging on the highway, even with A/C on and a full load. Acceleration does weaken around 90-100 mph, but if that bothers you then you are looking at the wrong car!
It does pretty well in Midwest snow. I'm not a fan of the Michelin Energy MXV4 tires in snow and ice, so if you get a lot of snow I'd suggest winter tires. For Chicago it's OK on the all seasons. The vehicle skid control is good to have in case you get into trouble.
The ride is as good as you'll find short of a high end Lexus or Merc. I think you'd have to spend a lot more to improve on this aspect of the car. Road noise is minimal. The dealer fixed a slightly loose passenger seatbelt adjuster... other than that no rattles even over the worst stuff.
As far as the "true lux" experience, clearly there are compromises at this price point. The ES330 is not as roomy, powerful or solid as any given $60K+ BMW, MB or Lexus. It lacks certain high end features like power/heated/cooled rear seats, keyless ignition etc. and even some not-so-high-end stuff like a telescoping steering wheel. OTOH the interior materials are the equal of almost anything on the market and at no time have we felt deprived for comfort.
In summary I'd strongly recommend the car... there is no higher quality vehicle for the price. It is particularly appropriate for those who value comfort and refinement over performance and handling.
Keep in mind a new ES350 will likely be coming out in the spring. Good luck!
On a slippery roadbed a FWD vehicle will often exhibit the very same hazards as does a 4WD vehicle. Both will have substantially more roadbed traction relative to RWD for getting going, but once you lose traction with the roadbed what you need most is a vehicle with directional control.
That's the point wherein you might wish for RWD.
You may notice that many new 4WD (4runner) and/or AWD (Lexus IS & GS) systems dynamically reallocate engine torque to the rear if the yaw sensor detects that directional control is suddenly of paramount importance.
And finally, no one has stated that the Toyota/Lexus 5-speed transaxle (FWD) engine/throttle hesitation symptom is widespread. In point of act the inverse may well be closer to the mark.
It is well known, even from it's initial "public" disclosure via TSB in early 2003, that the experience is totally random, some cars subject to it and some not. But those who have experienced the problem relate it as being a harrowing, potentially hazardous experience.
Personally I will not be in the market to trade up to a new RX3x0 until this problem has been successfully addressed.
It is my understanding you don't own one or have ever driven one. I certainly don't have any experience with it and I don't feel qualified to say anything about driving experience with the model one way or the other. I do think it's a nice looking automobile though.
A couple of other observations if I may. The TSB you refer to was issued early in 03. That's almost 3 years ago. I wonder how many times it actually was used--not a great many is my guess, based on the low number of claims we've seen here. As you say, the issue doesn't appear to be widespread. No doubt there have been a number of TSB revisions since 03, and most reports now seem to indicate it's been succesful. Not very many reports of hesitation have appeared recently, and no 06 models that I know of, so perhaps it's no longer even an issue. I think you're probably safe in buying that new RX3x0 by now!!
The forum about it was closed because it was essentially the same bunch rehashing things over and over again. Edmunds finally killed their forum when some of that clique got offensive toward anyone who appeared as a threat to their way of thinking. It's still there archived for anyone wanting to take a look. I don't believe the experiences hashed about in that forum were indicative of the majority of owner experience by any means.
I chose this over the TL due to the quiet
smooth ride quality and would make the same
decision again. Answers to your questions below
Does the car have enough power to let's say merge on the highway?
More than enough
pass on the highway? (quickly when the need arises).....
they will disappear in your rear view !
does it do well while driving in snow country?
Yes very good snow mobile
(i.e. midwest)...and just the overall ride.....is there any rattles in the interior?....allot of road noise?.....is it the true luxury experience?
Quietest smoothest auto I ever owned
I'm afraid you're wrong there. If you look thru the archived "Engine Hesitation All Makes and Models" forum, there are dozens and dozens of claims to that effect, mostly by the same few posters.
Here are several examples of what I'm seeing there:......
Quote: "I agree with your assessment, particularly that all the subject cars have the problem"
Here are some other examples I started out to show you:
"the TSB tells me it is across the board"
"they all do it and it's for all models with that same tranny"
There are a number of the same types of statements; different words but always the same message. Curiously, it was alway the same two or three posters who posted those remarks.
History shows us they were wrong.
Currently, no one is stating........that the problem is widespread.
So again, I ask those that have questions about the engine/throttle hesitation problems or any and all reponders, do NOT repond in kind to any personal attacks or baiting by anyone.
I suspect that if we "behave" ourselves and conduct the discussions in a polite and level-headed way Edmunds will be kind enough to allow the discussion to continue unabated.
Thanks to all....
So to sum it up, given the sweet ride, and the luxury of the ES330 we figured that the new ES350 can improve on an already outstanding vehicle....Again, thanks to all who responded as it was much appreciated! Now I know I shouldn't ask this but, does anyone know the release date of the ES350? Thanks
You may find this forum of interest:
"Transmission problems with Lexus ES-300 ?"
There are cars I like and dislike. Our 2005 ES330 to me is indifferent. However, my wife loves it. So we bought one (Happy wife = happy life).
I have seen ES330 frequently compared to Camry. So I will not do that comparison.
My comparisons will be to that car that I now drive the 2002 Maxima GLE (wife's hand me down)which we bought it new for $24K.
Here's my break down of 10 things I noticed.
MAXIMA:
1. Gas milage, w/ premium fuel in mix local/highway driving. Maxima 26.7 mpg (ES330 22.5 mpg)
2. Power/Accel
3. Handling
4. Maintenance Cost
5. Car price
Lexus ES330
1. Comfort
2. Safety Features
3. Exterior metal(Maxima thinner metal and chips easily)
4. Interior Layout/Noise
5. Dealer service (However, great service tech. at a Nissan dealer for our Maxima)
At this point I'm not a big Drive By Wire Throttle fan. As soon as I hit the gas, I want it to go. As I compared, Maxima with more powerful and better acceleration engine is more fuel efficient. I don't understand how or why the mighty Toyota/Lexus engine gets out performed by Nissan's old engine.
I will say ES330 is worth more than Maxima maybe $2K more but $6K more?
Is there something I have left out?
Thanks.
I don't think this is necessarily a DBW issue because not all cars with DBW have this problem. But yeah, I agree, it is a reasonable expectation from a car. Were you aware that Toyota has issued a TSB to help address this "hesitation" problem? If it is not bothering your wife (who I assume drives the car) you may not want to bother with it, but some people have noticed an improvement after having the TSB work performed.
That is provided I have selected the correct gear so as not to "lug" the engine and have released the clutch pedal.
That latter part is actually the fly in the ointment with the Toyota and Lexus 5-speed transaxles. The engine/transaxle ECU will not allow the engine to develop torque above idle via "side-tracking" the DBW signals until the "proper" transaxle gear is selected and all of the clutches appropriate to that gear selection have fully and firmly seated.
This whole dilema is the result of Toyota and Lexus wanting, working too hard, and over-optimizing engine/transaxle operations toward improved fuel economy. There may also be a bit of a safety issue involved in that it is really not a bad idea to remove as much engine compression braking from the front drive wheels via upshifting the transaxle as you slow to a final stop just in case the roadbed is super slippery.
That's why you get a very QUICK upshift during any throttle closed coastdown situation. But now amidst that upshift sequence if you happen to depress the "GO" button things can go quickly awry. The DBW side-tracking will not allow the engine to respond to your inputs and additionally the ECU has very likely selected a downshift gear more in favor of fuel economy rather than supplying more RAW torque for acceleration.
But now you sense the engine's non-response and depress the gas pedal just a wee bit farther. Meantime the transaxle has completed the "coastdown" upshift and started the initially selected downshift. Now it decides it needs to be in an even lower gear ratio cognizant with the new gas pedal position and delays the onset of engine torque development even more.
Enough said...??
That said, your hypothesis might pass the thesis "weight test" in DBW101, but IMHO it doesn't quite make the grade in practical terms. On technical merit, it doesn't resonate; on artistic impression, it looks nice, but looks ain't where it's at!
An "F", unfortunately, on overall grade. Good try tho'.
And yes, the ECU does not have the advantage of my eyesight and forethought derived therefrom. But that's also exactly why it shouldn't so quickly "default" into upshifting since it hasn't a single clue as to what I might do next.
How long do you suppose it would take to delay unshifting during throttle closed coastdown circumstances to make 90% of these complaints disappear. And just how much fuel would be "wasted" if the delay were to be 2 or three seconds?
A good effort, but neither of you two are going to raise the graded "F" by hedging after the fact on Wwest's original thesis. You could be granted one small concession though, which might have helped get a better mark had it been included in the original piece. You are correct in your follow up explanation Wwest, a "human" making a decision under a wide variety of changing conditions will better the capability of an EPROM chip every time. Artificial intelligence is here to a degree, but still a long way from the human brain. Those nasty, overworked, and delinquent Toyota engineers you often criticize for doing such a bad job are actually not so bad after all. You also said in your follow up Wwest--the way DBW systems work is probably a better way to manage the transmission/engine relationship from both a control, safety, and fuel economy standpoint. DBW system management is intended for "average" driving, not the conditions one would expect a high performance sports car (Porsche C4?) to deliver--with "Human" interface in shifting decisions.
If you want a car that "goes when you step on it", then buy one. Conversely, if you want what our buying public demands in our marketplace--a "No Brainer Slushbucket"--then I think you will like the current DBW technology. But do NOT expect DBW "Slushbuckets" to perform like a Porsche C4!! Do NOT expect a DBW equipped auto to do everything you ask of it.
For your info Scoti. Big mistake!! Wwest's Porsche doesn't have DBW--(unless he's wired directly to the accellerator, tranny , and clutch!) A close coupled manual transmission is a whole 'nuther animal.
I am very pleased to hear your Dad's experience is positive; I'm sure this is far more the rule than exception for these automobiles.
Maybe we should have been saying "partial" DBW.
Makes me wish, for purposes of this discussion only, I had bought a little Mazda 4-banger with e-throttle and automatic transmission (NOT transaxle)that I could have used as an example. I have no doubt that I could have used the same example with the Maxda, when I depress the gas pedal it GOES!
Going all the way back to a new 56 Ford automatic, I remember being told that if I wished it to upshift "early" all I had to do was release the gas pedal slightly. And I agree that it worked.
So in a sense this "upshifting" effect has been with us for more than 50 years now. The major difference is that with the Ford when I subsequently re-applied pedal pressure cognizant with the need to gain speed the transmission reacted instantly as did the engine. Same as my 2001 RX300.
But now for some reason Toyota has discovered that they need to "protect the drive train" by delaying the onset of engine torque during these downshifts.
Why, what changed..??
On the other hand Toyota must accept responsibility, and pay costs, for any transaxle internal clutch failure during the drive train warranty period.
I really cannot answer that question Wwest. I don't think anyone can--leastwise those of us discussing it. Given none of us (Scoti included) has experienced this phenomenon, then none of us is able to speak authoritatively about it one way or the other. We can only
continue to speculate on If, How, What, Why, or to What Extent this phenomenon occurs. Frankly, I'd rather not discuss it further.
Sorry, I know you said you do not want to discuss this issue further, so I do not expect a reply from you, but I just wanted to let you know for the record that I have never stated that I have not experienced this phenomenon. I kindly request that you stop making this statement, since you and others have repeated it in what I perceive as an attempt to discredit my participation in Edmunds forums. So to address this statement, I will tell you that indeed, I do not own a vehicle that has this problem. My Sequoia seems to go just fine when I press the "go-pedal". But I have experienced it as a passenger. I will continue to discuss this problem when I have something I would like to add (and as long as it is within the forum participation guidelines).
"Toyota/Lexus transaxle shift delay"
I bought an ES330 yesterday (my first new car ) and wanted to know if anyone could recommend a good car cover. I will be parking in my driveway which is often home to many cats so am looking for something to protect against scratches as well as the elements. Any recommendations?
Thanks in advance