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Mercedes-Benz S-Class

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Comments

  • benznutbenznut Member Posts: 104
    I believe that the S430 will be discontinued, as it is happening with the E, M, and Clk already. I think it will be replaced by a more powerful V6 than the current 320. Frankly, I expected Mb to increase the power in the 500 engine with the arrival of the new models, in order to compete with the new 4.4L from BMW. WE will see
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah the S430 is in a tough spot. The LS430 and 745i are flanking it pretty good. I don't think they'll drop it, unless they lower the base price of the S500. Me no sure either.

    M
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    Is there some reason they wont crawl under the dash with some spray lithium grease and fix this? The squeak is undoubtably just a pedal bushing, if the brake light switch is not operating smoothly, hence the tap noise, lube it too. I don't hear mine, our cars are identical in this area, it is not right.

    The car should not be aligned to pull slightly right. That is pure bunk. Are they going to replace those 18" tires when they wear out prematurely? The car should be aligned to go STRAIGHT down the road, period.

    It sounds to me like you ought to find another dealer. I hope you have another somewhat close by. I get really perturbed when dealers handle things like this. They need to make that car drive as YOU want it too. The irony is that the fixes are really simple. Just a couple hopurs in the shop and they would have a satisfied customer. If they wont correct it contact MBUSA, the number is in your manual. Let us know how this progresses.
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    Hey, I like what info you had about the future S and the engines. Below is a link to some 2006 S-class info. Also Auto Bild Mag. in Germany and its inside sources are also saying that the next gen S-Class will have so much computer power, telematic systems, and electronic gizmos that it might as well drive itself. The GST is a hint. (night vision??)... Also I agree with you that the E-class is the best MB and the new one is nice. It is a drivers sedan. I like that in a car. Take care

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4801&sid=178&n=156
  • ejerodejerod Member Posts: 86
    Benzams.. yes this is normal when the ignition is first shut off there are various buzzing noises. The watchamacallits and the thingamajiggers are just going into the static position. The hissing is the car's suspnsion system releasing air and settling into the rest position. If you notice ( you can do this by having your headlights on and facing a wall, or having the door open with one foot on the ground when you first start the car) when you start the car it raises itself about 3/4 of an inch. When you shut it down the car lowers itself again. Again all normal. I like it, makes me feel like I'm on the command deck of the space shuttle after it just landed.. lol. I've had some problems with the car. Talking with MB now about an extended warranty. I went out and test drove other vehicles last week. The Infinity Q45, The LS430. Both nice cars.. but after I got back in my car, and watched the salesmen and other customers look at me as I drove off, I had this warm fuzzy feeling and a huge grin on my face.. all in all I love this car.. 2001 S500 AMG package and venitlated seats, auto trunk closer, illuminated door sills, wood shifter and steering wheel and too many other options to list here..enjoy and buy the warranty.. Even Lexus is having problems with their phone system.. too many gadgets and still man made.. somethings bound to happen sooner or later no matter who makes what...:)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks. Their server must be down, cause the link won't pull up right now. I truly hope MB doesn't try to top BMW with the next S-Class. The both of them will cease being "just" cars.

    M
  • benznutbenznut Member Posts: 104
    It is unavoidable that the next S Class will try (and most likely succeed) to top the new 7 series. Among other things, I have read that the new S will feature steer-by-wire technology, that menas no mechanical linkage between the wheels and the steering wheel (currently illegal in Europe). MB engineers are confident that the laws in Europe will change till then. MB has always been a pioneer in flagship technilogy and it is not about to give up now.
    Now, it seems official (almost) that the bi-turbo V12 will make it into the facelifted S Class. Does this mean that the rest of the flagship fleet will get it too, namely the Cl and SL class? If yes, I am eager to read how a bi-turbo SL600 will compare to the SL55 (that was tested at 208mph, and AMS recently tested its 0-100kmh at 4.4 sec - way deep into 360 Modena and 911 Turbo territory)
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    I just had my friend fax me the german article about the 2006 S and it confirms the drive by wire system. Other systems include computer assisted radar braking. Like the cruise control system now only for city driving (think automatic brakes). A night vision system like the Cady's only more advanced. New engines and a upgraded ABC suspension standard on all models. Complete voice activation on all interior controls (even a system to open the windows by saying "window down") and many fewer buttons because of the voice control. I think MB is not going to use a i-drive like system, rather as computer power increases dramatically it will be mostly voice activated. After reading this article I felt that if you take out the words Mercedes you could replace them with space craft. I don't know but I feel that someday we may miss a drivers car. All for now.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh no! Where are you guys getting this stuff from? My heart skips a beat reading about future Mercedes and what they're going to try and bring to the market. I just hope during all this technology they don't forget to continue the sportiness of the current S and at the same time improve on old MB virtures, like pure quality, safety and the whole bank vault feel thing.

    M
  • chivas3chivas3 Member Posts: 1
    I just purchased my first MB, the S500, year 2000 model. I am still beaming over the car and love it. It took me a few days to get adjusted to the COMAND system, but don't mind learning the system. I actually enjoy the gadgets.

    One thing I found was that the cell phone is really well integrated and makes up a BIG part of the COMAND system. For some reason, MB installed an ANALOG (800 mhz) only phone in the car (even in yr 2000???).
    Anyhow, that was a big disappointment since I have been reading up on ALL the wonderful data features that the new 2002/2003 models will have with the upgraded phone system connected via fiber-optics. All the features that I will not be entitled to...even after dropping $70K for this car.
    On top of that, I went to a cell store to have it activated when they told me they are not able to activate ANY analog phones..the carriers will not allow it. Basically, I cannot take advantage of any of the "Digital" plans that have reasonable pricing with the current Motorola "brick" phone which resembles the old DPC550...if any of you remember. I had to call Verizon and Cingular directly to learn that they only offer 1 plan for analog phones..with OUTRAGEOUS pricing.

    I wanted to upgrade my phone and inquired about it through a MB dealer. They told me that I can only upgrade to the Motorola Startac 7860 which will run on the 800 mhz frequency. They told me I cannot get the new V60 phone bec. I don't have the integrated fiber-optic connections. They told me that the price for parts alone is $2000; not including labor.

    Does anyone have a work-around this, without paying $2000 for a half-baked solution. I cannot seem to find ANY information on aftermarket integration with the MB COMAND system.

    I would appreciate any information on any other options that you may be aware of.

    TIA,
    -CR
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    Unfortunately I believe you are pretty much out of luck in terms of aftermarket integration. The MB phones have chips and software in the phone itself that integrate with the COMAND system. Yes, older models are not compatible with the new systems and I've even heard the the new COMAND System II replacing the system in the 2002 S/CL, 2003 E, and 2003 SL(that's right the current system in the new SL will be replaced early next year) will not be compatible with current V60 phones. Technology changes so fast (ie.computers/PDA/Software) that when cars are fitted with these things, like a PC upgrade, sometimes you have the replace the whole computer (or in this case, the car) to get advantages from new one item.
  • benznutbenznut Member Posts: 104
    Technology is supposed to make things simpler. Getting stuck with an analog phone in a 2000 S is simply unacceptable.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    My '01 S600 has a dual band star-tac phone. The issue I have is that in a rural area I can't get programming for the phone. I have to base it out of a long distance area code. They make you choose from four carriers, ATT, Verison, Sprint, or Voice Stream. That stinks because I don't have those to choose from. My cell carrier has been trying to get the ATT program OUT of my phone but it appears that it is also in the command system. So I pay more because they sell loyalties, unfortunately to thier advantage, not the customers. The bright side is that the Lexus system is worse, or at least it was.
  • cvrinccvrinc Member Posts: 16
    I have a 2000 S430 with the stock chrome wheels and Mercedes issued Continental ContiTouring 225/60 R 16 "H" rated tires. I have 27,000 miles on the tires and they are wearing out fast. Once these tires start to go, they really go fast and I am hearing a lot of tire noise.

    I was hoping to get more miles out of the Continentals, but this is the first set for me. Is 27,000 about right for normal driving for these tires? I would have preferred the Michelin MXV series that were issued on some of the other S classes, but I guess this was the luck of the draw.

    Now the question is, what is everyone's opinion on what brand of tire to replace the Continentals with, staying with the current stock size? And keeping in mind the best ride, handling, and durability for the S Class.

    I look forward to hearing everyone's response.

    Thanks
  • cmcgaheecmcgahee Member Posts: 5
    No question about it. Go with the Michelins! Total mileage depends on your driving habits, but 27000 miles isn't bad. You'll think you have a new car with the new Michelins.
  • cvrinccvrinc Member Posts: 16
    Thanks for the response. I am leaning toward the Michelins MXV Plus series, but I didn't know if anyone else had a recommendation for the latest and greatest in tire technology for the S Class stock replacements.

    The Continentals never impressed me. Why did Mercedes have 2 makes of tires on the S Class? Some had Continentals and some had Michelins.

    Any other recommendations and specifically what tire series?

    Thanks
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    The Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus is the tire that MB fits from the factory. If you want a little bit sportier tire for the car you could get the Michelin Pilot Sport All Season. Both have a 400 treadwear rating, meaning they will last a long time, I would expect 40k miles or better. Both are good all season designs. The Sport will sharpen steering response and probably be slightly noisier. Impact harshness may be a bit more too. We are splitting hairs on this though. An S500 is plenty quiet to start with. I personally would move to the Sport, but I am still a young whipper snapper. Either way buy the Michelins.
  • bbrown12bbrown12 Member Posts: 2
    When one thinks of the sophisticated systems on the S-class I own, this seems so petty. I cannot get my stock 16 inch wheels to balance. The rims are perfect, the tires as well. I had them done several times on various machines and this week on a Hunter GSP-9700 which is supposed to be the best vibration analyser available in North America. However , the shimmy persists. Any suggestions???
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    What year S Class do you own? The early W140 ('92-'99) models were notorious for wheel shimmy.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    Just because the tires look perfect,does not mean that they are. Sometimes you get a bad tire that is difficult to balance. The better tires from makers like Michelin seem to require less wieght to achieve balance.
  • bbrown12bbrown12 Member Posts: 2
    My S class is 2001. the tires are Michelin MXV Energy. I've had snows on the back for about 5 months and the front ones are just about finished @25 thousand miles despite moderate driving and frequent tire pressure checks and rotation. Michelin folks tell me that's about right mileage for that tire . I thought I'd get more mileage from a 60 series tire.
    Thanks for the responses to my wheel balance problem.
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    The Hunter balancer addresses things like variation in the tire sidewall stiffnes as a source of vibration. Generally it is quite good in resolving tire/wheel balance issue. I suppose that it is still possible that the tires could have some problem with the belts that the Hunter might not address. Since the front tires are shot (at lower mileage than I would like as well) it probably is worth your while to replace them. When they are replaced you should have the front end inspected and realligned. The front end inspection should be done carefully looking for worn parts such as the steering shock, and bushing wear. If that doesn't cure the shimmy one other place I can think to look would be the brake rotors. Good luck and let us know how it goes. These problems can be vexing but can be resolved. One last thought does the shimmy persist after you have been on the highway a long period of time?
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    Maybe MB should fix it's reliability problems before it tries to build any more "super cars." A super car that is undependable isn't much of a car at all. Consumer reports puts the S-Class below the Cadillac Deville and most other luxury cars in reliability (CR, April 2002, 24).

    Moreover, JD Powers ranks MB 14th out of 20 in its long-term dependability study. Cadillac, Lincoln and Jaguar all score higher than MB, along with the usual suspects, Lexus, Infiniti, Toyota, Honda, etc.:

    http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=585&CatID=1

    Electrohydraulic brakes from a company that can't get basic reliability right? No thanks.

    P.S.

    Just keep the trolling up Merc1. It will give me an excuse to expand this thread to every MB board on Edmunds. When you actually have to spend your own money on a car, rather than reading about them on the web, you might start caring about things like dependability.
  • baron87baron87 Member Posts: 93
    Maybe once MB catches up to Opel in Europe things will change. Yes, Mercedes has fallen behind Opel, of all brands, in quality in Europe. Aboslutely laughable, and yet you people (merc) go around touting Mercedes as the "epitome of quality and reliability." See the facts, folks, facts.
  • crankstercrankster Member Posts: 20
    I can barely wait to see the lawsuits when MB brings out Steer-by-wire in a couple of years. Won't it be fun to be in THAT when the system fails.

    Ditto on the Merc1 comments.
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    Good to see you folks ;)
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    I mistakenly said JD power ranked MB 14th in long-term dependability. Actually Audi ranked 14th. BMW ranked 13th and MB ranked 10th. That, however, still puts them behind Cadillac (8th), Lincoln (4th), Jaguar (3rd), Infiniti (2nd), and Lexus (1st).

    For the kind of premium one pays to get that three-pointed star, one should expect a better showing than 10th in long-term dependability. Does it make sense to pay a premium for Lexus quality? You bet. There's no better car in terms of quality on the face of the planet right now.

    Alternatively, one can buy a Deville DTS or Q45 and get better quality than the S-Class at a $25k discount.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    those cars are no fun to drive Mark. There is no premium for Lexus, they are the discount brand.

    There is a lot more toa quality automobile than JD Powers numbers. I'll tellyou what, you buy a Caddilac and we willcompare how they function after 100k miles. JD Powers is way off and you are twisting the results to justify buying a cut rate lux car.
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    So, when companies like CR and JD Power, who dedicate significant resources to giving consumers unbiased information regarding quality, tell you your car doesn't hold up particularly well, you chose not to believe them. Would this still be the case if they said MBs were wonderful? I wonder.

    Please tell me what was twisted about the JD Power and CR assessments. If you're going to accuse me of twisting the facts, give me a chance to see the error of my ways. What exactly did I twist when I quoted the results of two different reputable quality-related research organizations?

    As for "fun-to-drive," I think a 'Vette would be more fun-to-drive that any of the aforementioned choices. The Q45 is somewhat fun to drive, although it may not make enough "mechanical noise" to suit some people. I'll bet the 400hp CTS will be more fun to drive than any of these choices, save the 'Vette. By all accounts, the CTS is one of the best handlers on the market today, and perhaps just a small notch below the BMW 5-Series. With a 400hp aluminum block V8, with all of that engine's attendant torque, I'm willing to bet the CTS will be plenty of fun to drive! Especially if there are MBs around willing to take up the challenge!

    Better quality (in relation to MB), very good fit and finish, power 'till the cows come home, all at a reasonable price. That's what the CTS, and future Caddys, are all about!
  • popovspopovs Member Posts: 3
    So, besides those of us who have an ax to grind because of a bad exprience at an MB dealership, or those posting deragatory information in a vain attempt to justify their purchase of anything other than a world class car with truckloads of - dare I say - snob appeal...

    Are there any legitimate MBZ owners/enthusiasts who wish to contribute something usefull to this discussion?
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    And it has everything to do with this topic ;)

    JD Powers also did a study measuring owners' satisfaction with dealer service during the warranty period:

    http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=572&CatID=1

    And wouldn't you know it, MB ranks near the bottom of the luxury class once again! Lexus #1, Cadillac #4, Infiniti #5, Jaguar #6, Lincoln #7 ... Mercedes Benz #17.

    Overall service (warranty and non-warranty) was also studied:

    http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=527&CatID=1

    And the results came out similarly, with Lexus #1, Cadillac #3, Infiniti #4, Lincoln #8, Jaguar #12, and Mercedes Benz bringing up the rear of the luxury class at #13.

    JD Powers didn't measure snob appeal, but I'm sure that is one area where MB probably scores quite well. You may not have the best service, the most reliable cars, or cars which are the most fun to drive, but you do have that all-important snob appeal. As if a man is measured by the car he drives....

    -Mark
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    Where's merc1 when you need him? I expect he will liven the quality vs. snob-appeal debate somewhat. If only he would come out of hiding...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh please your just salty becuase you tried to say that Cadillac makes a better car than Mercedes and they clearly don't. For those of you that don't know how this got started let me catch you up.

    Markhampton posted that Mercedes has 3 models on the CR "avoid" list. The ML, CLK and S-Class. Now for all this effort trying smear Mercedes Benz he couldn't come up with squat. The fact is that EVERY Cadillac sedan, Catera, Seville, and Deville have been on the list in various years since 1995. The S-Class had one year 2000 in which CR said to avoid. The CLK had 2 years, 2000/2001 and the ML since 1998. Everyone knows the ML was not and still doesn't meet Mercedes standards so thats no surprise. Yet the S-Class only had it's first year on the list, and seeing as how the 2001 model didn't make the "avoid" list indicates that Mercedes corrected the problems the car had up it's launch. Cadillac can't get the piece of junk Seville right in over 6 years of trying! On top of that the C-Class, SL, CL and E-Class haven't been on the "avoid" list. Period.

    Next up is the fact you can't seem to understand that a many don't give a rats behind about CR or JD powers because if they did European cars as a whole wouldn't sell at all here. For a slightly more reliable Cadillac a many have chosen to drive a better performing, better designed, and just all around more satisfying car than a boss-hogg Cadillac. Does Lexus make a good car yes, but I don't see how that help Cadillac, you're so desperate to prove a point you're holding up the brand that has kicked Cadillac's teeth down it's throat since 1990. In the same manner in which Toyota has done GM in general. A Deville and a Q45 would get trounced in a comparo with a S-Class, the Q45 for all it's greatness (per you) can't be given away by Infiniti dealers. Yeah it must be a great car.

    All you have is a bunch of "predictions" which don't mean squat, because like I've said so many times before..you simply don't know what MB, Cadilac or any other carmaker does under the skin of the car from one model year to the next in order to improve reliability. We do know however that Cadillac hasn't done crap to the Seville because it's a repeat winner on the "Avoid" list year after year. Yet your only defense to this is "they'll be out of production soon", that is the biggest pile of BS I've yet heard from a GM fan. Troll: person who enters a topic for no other reason than to start a mess...that would be you in here now.

    Lastly if you find time to pull your head out of surveys, why don't you go to any used car lot and see for yourself how well a Mercedes' paint, body, and interior hold up over time Compared to a Cadillac on average. Especially if you look a early to mid 90's model MB and Cadillac cars. Does your precious JD/CR bible go back that far to measure true long-term durability? Probably not. For all this superior reliability you speak of Cadillac still can't get their resale value out of the 99 cents bin. According to you they make a better car than Cadillac so why doesn't the real world of resale values bare this out?

    Are you really trying to say that the CTS has better quality than Mercedes? Yeah right, that's why early CTS' blew their engines and Lutz won't even sell the car in Europe until something can be done about the sorry RubberMaid interior of the current car.

    baron87,

    You're a dreamer who has never even driven a car. So guess what you're "opinion" is worth.

    M
  • baron87baron87 Member Posts: 93
    <<You're a dreamer who has never even driven a car. So guess what you're "opinion" is worth.>>

    What a concept: refute fact with fiction! First of all, my statements have all been based on truth, which apparently you are too short-sighted to see. Secondly, if there were no dreamers in our world the automobile wouldn't exist. I'm truly sorry, merc, if my not submitting to the monotony of convention upsets you so much to make you insecure.

    And what is my opinion worth? I'm guessing 500 USD? 600? Your "opinion" would has a lesser value, though, since it is not unique, and mainly consists of text taken from 10-year old Mercedes brochures.

    It strikes me as interesting when markhampton provides us with so many unbiased FACTS that you still refute them. Cadillac scores ahead of Mercedes in every JD Power study. Why do you still deny it? You cannot refute fact with fiction...unless in your extreme view-point what is fact to the rest of the world suddenly becomes fiction, and ficton becomes fact. Maybe...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    When you're had to drive any of the cars being discussed here you let me know. All you can do it READ about cars and you do most of that from Cadillac. What a concept: To young to drive and to young to know any better. When are you going to be able to assess things for yourself and not rely upon other's and their books? Probably in another 2-3 years, then you'll get to drive the family Cadillac.

    M
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    Merc, the facts are on my side. I've documented everything for you time and time again. I'm led to believe that you have a reading comprehension problem. Your unwarranted trolling is what landed us here, so don't blame this on me.

    What do you say we copy this thread to all of the MB boards? Potential owners should know about MB's abysmal reliability and service ratings.

    "Yet the S-Class only had it's first year on the list, and seeing as how the 2001 model didn't make the "avoid" list indicates that Mercedes corrected the problems"

    Who's speculating now?

    Fact: For 2002, CR gave the S-Class a rating of 2 out of 5 (CR, April 2002, 57).

    Fact: The S-Class is ranked below the Deville in reliability (CR, April 2002, 27).

    Fact: You will not find an Escalade or an Eldorado anywhere on CR's "used cars to avoid" list. The Catera was not on the list after 1999. That leaves the Seville which, like the S-Class, ranks lower than the Deville in reliability. Evidently you're hanging your hat on a car that will be out of production by the end of the year. Sad.

    "many don't give a rats behind about CR or JD powers because if they did European cars as a whole wouldn't sell at all here"

    At least you got one thing right. You once asked if I thought consumers were stupid. It appears we agree on this at least. Consumers must be stupid if they are willing to pay that much for a car with abysmal reliability and abysmal service.

    "A Deville and a Q45 would get trounced in a comparo with a S-Class"

    Giving us a prediction, are you?

    "All you have is a bunch of "predictions" which don't mean squat"

    Which is far more than you have given us. Saying one car trounces another means little without some reference to back it up. Where are your references Merc? All you have given us thus far is your opinion. When you actually own and drive one of these cars on a daily basis, your opinion might be worth something. Until then, your opinion isn't worth "squat."

    Too bad Car and Driver didn't have an MB in its February 2002 comparo to go up against the CTS. If the CTS is just slightly below the 5-series in the handling department, then MB has a lot of catching up to do. And then there's the 400hp CTSi. That will be one sweet comparo, my friend.

    "why don't you go to any used car lot and see for yourself how well a Mercedes' paint, body, and interior hold up over time Compared to a Cadillac"

    Bingo. You're living the dream of the past and ignoring the problems of the present. Without a doubt, MB built some good cars in the past. Newer MB's, however, have gained a reputation for being "de-contented" or "cheapened" -- take the adjective of your choice. If you're in the market for a new car you can do better than a Mercedes.

    You're clearly passionate about MB, and that's fine. If you're in the market for an 80s vintage MB, there are good ones to be found. Likewise, I would avoid 80s vintage Cadillacs. I don't buy used MBs or Cadillacs, however, so that's not a consideration for me.
  • benznutbenznut Member Posts: 104
    Merc1 drives the best car in the world (S600 if am not mistaken) and that is why is intolerant to people who take the word of some surveys that probably have a bias for foreign cars, especially Mercedes. Or at least, if you want to do that, that is taking another's word when you cannot drive yurself, read AutoCar, a Brittish magazine who proclaimes S600 as undeniably the best car in the world, refusing even their own Bentley Arnage, together with LS430, and BMW 745.
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    According to Merc1's profile, he drives a 1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder, and dreams about a SL500. I know nothing about him other than what he tells us himself.

    If I had $120k I was willing to spend on a car, I certainly wouldn't throw it away on an S600. For my money, two LS430s would make far more sense.

    I know nothing about Autocar but if it's anything like the auto rags here in the U.S., then they likely place a premium on a car's "fun-to-drive" factor rather than how easy it is to live with on a day-to-day basis. I'm sure the S600 is a fine toy, but I use my car for daily transportation and prefer not to drive dealer loaners or rentals while my hypothetical toy is in the shop.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    Did you ever think that S-Class owners are a little more pickey about their cars? Maybe every little thing bothers them while DeVille owners A) are used to their car rattling or B)Too old to hear the rattles?

    I think it is kind of pathetic that obvious GM fanatics (baron87 included) come on other boards just to justify their purchase (or their parents purchase)?
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    I give you surveys by reputable research organizations, and you give me your home-grown theories on owner personality profiles. No offense, but unless you have a PHD in sociology, I'm more inclined to believe CR and JD Powers.

    Well, now, call it what you will but we all know why I'm here. An eye for an eye, and a troll for a troll. I've had it with Merc1's tiresome rants in the Cadillac forums. Two can play at that game. ;)
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    It must be that 'ol reading comprehension malady certain people suffer from ...

    Merc1: "Again I ask if Cadillac is so good why can't they pull their resale out the toilet?"

    And again, I say consumers are idiots. The generation who bought pet rocks is the same generation who has grown up to buy MBs. If sales are the measure of a car's reliability and quality, then by your logic, the Ford Taurus is a reliable high-quality car, right? Of course not.

    Sales success is as much a function of marketing and perception as it is a reflection of reliability, quality and performance. If marketing did not create sales, then manufactures wouldn't spend billions on it. Even you should be able to see that.

    Have you followed the Pentium 4 vs. AMD Athlon debate? Most people who only know what they have heard in commercials might think a 1.5 GHz P4 is faster than a 1.3 GHz Athlon, but nothing could be further from the truth. That's what is known as effective marketing. Intel may not make the best products, but they are without a doubt the best marketers of their products. Likewise with MB. Both MB and Intel seem to think they can live on their reputations forever. We shall see.

    CR says MB's reliability is in the toilet. JD Powers says MB's reliability is in the toilet. I have asked you time and again to point me to a reputable source indicating otherwise, and all you can say is that "MB still sells a lot of cars." To presume that the effect of sales is driven by the cause of quality is little more than a logical fallacy. It does nothing in the least to further your argument. For example, Chrysler still sells a boat load of minivans, but it would be foolish to assume that this is an indication of how reliable or well-built their minivans are.
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74

    Well then you must be among them them cause you have a deflating value Cadillac. If you think Cadillac's hold up so much better then why don't you go to a used car lot than sells luxury cars and see for yourself why nobody wants to pay anything for a Cadillac. Just because Cadillac's resale is so poor isn't Mercedes' fault. Cadillac is still paying for the junk they've built of the last 20 years. Period. Until 1998 Cadillac had not car that was worth mentioning. Period.

    Where did I say that sales=reliability? Where oh where? The DeVille is a old folks car first and foremost and the S500 will blow it off the road. If the DeVille isn't more exciting than the S-Class then why do you keep pointing to the Deville when you speak of the S-Class. The S-Class has the car beat in so many area's it's pathetic to even compare to two. No comment on the MT comparo right? Thought not, since you live by books and such.

    I said Mercedes sells more cars because the feeble merits that Cadillac may haven't aren't enough anymore. Lexus, BMW and Mercedes are all knee deep in Cadillac's.... And you'd better watch out for Acura. I didn't not point out sales to illustrate that MB's were the highest quality cars on the market.

    Come again.

    M

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    """"Fact: For 2002, CR gave the S-Class a rating of 2 out of 5 (CR, April 2002, 57).

    Fact: The S-Class is ranked below the Deville in reliability (CR, April 2002, 27).

    Fact: You will not find an Escalade or an Eldorado anywhere on CR's "used cars to avoid" list. The Catera was not on the list after 1999. That leaves the Seville which, like the S-Class, ranks lower than the Deville in reliability. Evidently you're hanging your hat on a car that will be out of production by the end of the year. Sad.""""

    Where are the CL, SL, E, and C Class on the list? The Seville isn't going out production by the end of the year. What are you on? So I guess the fact that Cadillac hasn't been able to make the Seville reliable in over 5 years means that it's excused because it's due to be replaced soon. That is the biggest pile or BullS ever. So what are the people who want a Seville NOW supposed to do? Are you telling me that the all new Seville is due for 2003? Duh it isn't.

    The Escalade is a Chevy truck, and the Eldorado is an antique. Yeah that's real impressive the Chevy (mass produced and kinks worked out by testing it on Chevy customers first) and the 10 year old Eldorado that should have at least be trouble free NOW after all these years of producing them.

    "A Deville and a Q45 would get trounced in a comparo with a S-Class"

    Yep that's what I said. Don't you read. MT already did this comparo, minus the Q45 and guess who won and who got a mutthole kicked in their hood.

    You talk about me giving predictions, but yet you've already come to the conclusion that the CTS would have beat the C-Class in C&D last comparo, yet you don't want to acknowledge MT's comparo when the DTS got creamed. Pure hypocritical nonsense from you as always.

    ""You're living the dream of the past and ignoring the problems of the present. Without a doubt,
    MB built some good cars in the past. Newer MB's, however, have gained a reputation for being
    "de-contented" or "cheapened" -- take the adjective of your choice. If you're in the market for a new car you can do better than a Mercedes.""

    You almost got it right. They've been de-contented from previous cars, but the previous cars were over the top to begin with. You must have gone to that used car lot in between post. You still want to sit here and give an uninformed opinion, seeing as though you have no experience with Mercedes cars. Yes you give surveys, but that's all you have to give, yet I tell you I've been in MB cars for more than just a drive around the block and yet you discredit that, so why would anyone care about your continious posting of the same mess over and over again.

    All you have is your surveys.

    benznut,

    I wish! You got me mixed up with V12power, he has a S600 and a 750iL.

    M
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    After losing the quality debate, you moved on to the "sales = superiority" argument. That was your comeback when you finally relented on MBs abysmal record of reliability and service. When presented with the facts, you moved on to a new falacy.

    I have admitted that Cadillac's resale value is not as good as MB's, although the difference isn't dramatic as you might think. Of course, it's unlikely that you have any personal experience in this arena, so it comes as no surprise that you know little about these cars' relative resale values.

    What matters in the end is what the car is worth when you sell it, as a percentage of it's purchase price. When you take Cadillac's discounting into account, the two are not far apart. Certainly not far enough apart to justify spending an extra $30k on the less reliable S-Class. When I was looking for a car in this class, I ran the numbers on the S-Class. Even when taking resale value into account, the S-Class was considerably more expensive. I just couldn't justify it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Why are you posting different responses in different forums? Are you trying to confuse anyone that would figure out the BS you're peddling here? You talk about how dumb consumers are for ignoring things like CR rating the Seville as an "avoid" car year after year, and the fact that Cadillac resale is pitiful at best, yet you bought into it. Says a lot.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh please you keep posting the same mess over and over. All you have is your surveys and if you think every S-Class and every Mercedes dealer is so awful you're even more clueless than you sound. The fact remains that the S-Class is better car overall than a DeVille, and yes they have been compared. Yet you still make no mention of it.

    Now you turn around and try to down play Cadillac's terrible resale with "they're being discounted". Thank you proves my point. They have to be discounted to move in the first place. Thats a sign of a true qualtiy car in a wide-open market such as the current one. Only bottom feeder cars are being heavily discounted. Acura's RL comes to mind, yet let you tell it Cadillac is so much better.

    M
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    You presume too much, fool.

    I drove the SLK for a week. Not impressed. I drove the current incarnation of the E-class for a day. Very unimpressed. What's up with that stupid E-Class transmission anyway? When I press the gas pedal down, I want it to downshift. GM knows how to make a transmission that behaves properly. I guess that's why BMW is using GM transmissions now.

    I didn't drive an S-Class. Why pay more for a car that is proven to be less dependable?

    My father owned an MB and will never buy another one. I don't recall the model, but I do remember him complaining about it needing a valve job and a new automatic transmission before it hit 70k miles.

    These were my MB experiences. What is the extent of your Cadillac experience?
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    And it isn't worth squat since you don't own either of these cars.
  • markhamptonmarkhampton Member Posts: 74
    No, I don't read MT. I read C&D and R&T occasionally, however. Do you read MT between cereal boxes?

    As I have said, Mr. Incomprehendo, magazines place more importance on track performance than day-to-day driveability and dependability. If you can keep that S-Class running long enough, I'm sure it will perform well on the track for the magazine writers. That has little to do with it's suitability for every day driving.

    I personally don't care much about track performance, but if that's what you want then you should check out the CTS. Especially when it's fitted with a 400hp aluminum block V8. Since you're interested in predictions, I'll give you one: The CTSi will eat a similar class MB alive on the track.

    Enough of this for tonight. I'll read and respond to the remainder of your drivel tomorrow.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Goes to show who the "fool" is. YOU HAVEN'T EVEN DRIVEN AN S-CLASS!!! So be quiet. The SLK has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm really starting to enjoy this. My Cadillac experience you ask. There are two STSs and one DeVille in my family (actual relatives). The Sevilles are 1998 and 1999 models. One has been very reliable and the other (1998) has been junk. The 1999 DeVille has also been typical GM mess. Unlike you I can't tell you about the good points too. All three have nice interiors and good power for enthusiastic driving. The current Seville is easily one of the best looking cars on the road and is virtually timeless in that respect. The problem with the Seville is all that power to the front wheels, which is really unsettling if accelerating on a less then glass smooth surface. There is also a 1997 E420 (relative) , 2000 S500 (friend of a friend), 2000 C230K (neighbor), 1993 600SEL (distant relative) 1996 Lexus SC300 (best friend), 2002 BMW X5 4.6is (ex-friend (whole 'nother story), 2000 Lexus RX300 (relative), 1998 BMW 540iA (neighbor), 2001 GS430 (friend) and a 1994 Q45 (relative) around. The ones I listed are all people who's cars I have no trouble borrowing, a many I have driven out of town with, spending hours upon hours behind the wheel. Out of all of these only the 1998 540i and the two of the Cadillacs have been troublesome. The 2000 S500 had a bad gauge cluster and CD changer unit that took 2 attempts to fix, the 1997 E420, and 1993 600SEL have been flawless. The C230K has been about average. Admitedly the most reliable have been the Lexuses. The Q45 is reliable, but man does it cost to have work done on it.

    All in all your week in a SLK and test drive of an E-Class pales in comparison to my experiences. Period. Now back to your surveys.

    M
This discussion has been closed.