Mercedes-Benz S-Class

chapman7 · August 2001

tomkun: At what site or publication are you finding the pictures of the 2003 models.

hfrankel · August 2001

Take a look at this site -- they supposedly shot these pics during a movie production in NYC. I highly doubt these could be computer generated images. Looks like a mini S-class to me... but with a better front end treatment.

http://mbspy.bacosys.be/w211.htm

drew_ · August 2001

They're definitely not computer generated. Other European magazines have managed to snap shots of the same car, at different angles. MB is not very happy at all that the car wasn't kept underwraps outside of the filming, and they're currently conducting an internal investigation of the matter.

Drew
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hfrankel · August 2001

I'm planning to sell my 2001 S500 Sport. Any recommendations on the best web sites to post my vehicle, besides mbworld.org? Thanks

pat · August 2001

You might want to try Edmunds.com's Used Power Shopper. Good luck.

Pat
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elgriton · August 2001

Anyone else knows of other sites with '03 E and SL?

benznut · August 2001

I saw the new E on Road and Track of this month, together with the redesigned SLK. While i was highly impressed with the E, I was not that much with the SLK.
The E will resemble more the S-class. Finally the E gets those sporty looks that may give it the edge over a 5 series.
Will the E indeed have a 500 engine on it? great, after all even the ML is getting it. I sure hope they offer the airmatic suspension with it.
As good as the e will look, still it will be hard for me to divert the eyes off of the S-class. After all the S is one of the most beautiful cars ever coming from a MB assembly line, the most technically advanced too. I just hope the MB will correct those minor quality glitches in the near future. A better tire package(17 inch 255/55 maybe on a better wheel design, or dare I say that of the current 600 models) and the introduction of a 4matic option would help matter.

hfrankel · August 2001

The URL link is valid -- their site is often down or slow. Give it another try.

http://mbspy.bacosys.be/w211.htm

drew_ · August 2001

Yes, it will have Airmatic. But no, it will probably not get the 5.0L V8 engine right away anyway. 18 months after the new E-class is launched, MB will probably be introducing their new line of direct injection engines. They will be slightly larger in displacement, and have quite a few more horses, but yet equivalent, or even better fuel economy due to the much more efficient direct injection.

Drew
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rexconde1 · August 2001

What happened to the message center icon on all of the boards?

drew_ · August 2001

It's a bug and will hopefully be fixed soon.

Thanks for hanging in there!

Drew
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drew_ · August 2001

Just a reminder that the MB chat is on tonight (6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern). Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/mercedeschat.html

kcfan · August 2001

I want to get a new luxury car and have already narrowed it down to a ultra luxury LS430 or a mercedes S430/500. I love the LS430's interior and features that I want like park assist, laser cruise control, the mark levinson audio system, and the DVD NAV is great. My huge problem is the exterior. It looks just like a Toyoata Avalon and looks like in an old S class from the side a little. I don't know if that look can grow on me. I was offerd 65k at a local auto show for an ultra in March but I didn't know how rare that opportunity was because I wasn't in the market. I called back up today and they offered me 68k. The S class has an awesome sleek design that I love. In fact if I had to say one bad thing about the design it would be that it looks too much like a c class, but you can tell the s class is much bigger though. I wasn't so sure about the command system but my co-worker has one and says it isn't that bad after you learn it. My problem with the s class though is the plastic used in the interior and the price. By the time I get the 6 disc cd changer, the phone, distronic, parktronic, and ventalaited front seats I am looking at 80 grand and one local dealer is pretty set on or about the msrp price? I have a 98 ls 400 and I love it and I want to keep this next car till or about 2010. I know the lexus will last and I do know that the benz can be very expensive to repair but to me there just doesn't seem to be a clear cut winner. Any opinions and advice will be appreciated

pipingrock · August 2001

I was facing the same situation last October. I was on the list for one of the 1st LS 430 Ultra's: however when they started coming in I hated the way they looked and the driving position and feel was not even close to the Mercedes S 430. The interior of the Ultra is more luxurios but I felt the whole car was more suited for women. The Levison sound system was not that great compared to the Bose on Mercedes. Also, I didn't like the touch screen in Lexus and found the Mercedes controls for radio/nav/a/c easy to learn after a few test drives. I ended up getting the Mercedes S 430 with no optional equipment except CD. I love this car. It has had a few minor problems but the Lexus has also. I previously had a 98 GS 300 and have decided to never buy the 1st year of a new model ever again. I guess I couldn't stomach spending almost 70 grand for a car that didn't excite me that much. If you can afford close to 70 grand for a thinly disguised Toyota; than one can surely afford 75-80 for the real thing. The way car are so complicated today with computers and gadgets; I wouldn't keep any of these type expensive cars past the warranty.

bitkahuna · August 2001

Your message was OK until you said "If you can afford close to 70 grand for a thinly disguised Toyota; than one can surely afford 75-80 for the real thing."

That was a crock. The LS430 may be made by the same company that makes a Camry and Tercel and Avalon (all front wheel drive 4 and 6 cylinder cars), but they're so far apart from the LS that you can hardly say it's a thinly disguised Toyota. Also saying it's more suited for women is rather sexist. What makes you say that?

The LS430 and MB S430 and S500 are all terrific cars. The S430 and S500 are overpriced by about $10K, but still terrific.

As far as looks, I think the S430 with 16" wheels (I think that's the basic size) looks lame, just as the LS430 does. I saw a silver S600 with 19 or 20" Lorinser wheels that looked unbelievable the other day. I also saw a silver LS430 with 17" factory chrome wheels (and I'm not into chrome wheels) that also looked great. But I agree the LS430 with 16s looks unbalanced and pretty fugly. But color and wheels can make a big difference.

drew_ · August 2001

"The S430 and S500 are overpriced by about $10K, but still terrific."

That's interesting because for the past few years, MB has halved the dealer profit margin for all of their vehicles. They make a lot less than they used to. It has been said that Lexus could cut their profit margins as much as MB has, but there is still enough markup for them to easily make significantly more than the MB dealer would.

The S-classes has always been around that price level. I suppose that is what makes it a rather exclusive model, along with the SL and CL-class.

The 16" wheels for the S-class aren't too bad, IMHO, but the sport wheels are great! The tradeoff is that like other cars, the larger wheels = lower sidewall, and hence a higher chance that the wheels will get damaged by debris, potholes or curbs. The lower sidewall also results in a firmer ride due to cushioning from tire, as well as higher unsprung weight. It's also quite difficult to find winter tires for 17" wheels, unless you buy another set of 4 dedicated wheels for winter tires only.

There is also another explanation as to why MBzs (and BMW or Volvo) are more expensive:

http://www.escribe.com/automotive/european/mbmc/m15466.html

Good luck,

Drew
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benznut · August 2001

The 17 in, wheels in the S600 look terrific

rexconde1 · August 2001

Having test drove both these cars on the same day. I would have to say the S500.

--I -- M -- O

The S interior was very expansive and luxurious. Very open and cockpit like (a bit more swooshy than the previous models. Handled extremely well. ABC extremely helpful, kept the S flat on the road. Handled like I expected it to. My father drove it too...and he had one comment, its SLOW... (keep im mind our other cars are CLK55 and E55, however I dont live with him any more

The car had a certain firmness that you just knew that the car was dead on the road. Although I love how our 560SEL did feel.

The LS very nice inside and out. We drove the fully loaded one with ML sound system, however we did not have a cd

. EXTREMELY quiet but still on the light side of steering and just didnt handle. I do not like this lack of road feel -- but thats me. My father, while retired, does like to take the turns and the Lexus did not fit him. The Lexus is one hell of a cruising car. One can sleep extremely well in the back. The leather didnt impress me (This did not have the Ultra). We had a 90 LS400 and the leather was stiched up better, maybe the Ultra would fix this gripe. But the interior was generally boring. I"m not too sure how the leater would wear as well. I do know that we didnt have one single problem with that car OR more importantly THE SERVICE DEPARTMENT.

To go off in a tangent, the Q45 is kinda wierd looking, with a face reminicent of the J30 with the round front. Interior is nice, I just dont like the cliff look.

The new 7 Series is a bit too comtemporary for me, reminds me of the concorde... but done well. I guess intime I'll learn to like it. .

As for price.... the LS is a lot of car for the money and it does represent good value. The MB/BMW you are getting pretty much what you pay for, not to mention the safty of the passengers and they had the autobahn in mind when they were designed and they show in the performance. Dont Forget that the MB also has free maintainence for 4 years, while lexus does not. One overpriced car I feel is the A8...

R

boxer6 · August 2001

I'm not in the market for a new one of these but the other day I saw a 1996 s320 w/89000 miles. Any recommendations re: the longevity left on this vehicle? We put only 9k a year on cars. It looked like a nice car and is priced at 23.5K very reasonable. I currently have a '98 s70 volvo and this wold be quite a nice upgrade I would think. The volvo has lots of problems (under warranty). It has cost me around $1,000 a year to maintain...so far, so I figure why not maintain this beauty. I'm working on convincing the wife at this point but would appreciate any input on the car......good or bad.

Thanks

mbnut1 · August 2001

If you are sensitive to $1000 / yr maintainace costs, then I would do my homework prior to purchasing a used S class. If something goes wrong, a $1000 could be a drop in the proverbial bucket. I was told of an S-class which required $11K worth of warrenty maintainance work. I would highly recommend that you consider a Starmarked car. Bear in mind that I think they are one of the finest cars ever made, just complicated and expensive to repair.

bitkahuna · August 2001

As mbnut1 says, high end cars (MB, Audi, BMW, and Lexus) service is EXPENSIVE. Granted 9K mi. a year isn't much, so your costs may be low (2 or 3 oil changes, and one big service every 2-3 years), but if something goes wrong and you don't have warranty - it gets expensive in a hurry. Suggest you have the car microscopically checked out.

The older S class is a tank, but even tanks need maintanence.

boxer6 · August 2001

Thanks. The car was dealer serviced but I will have it checked. I guess my beef is that my current car has already needed breaks twice, rotors once (@28K!!!) and other incidentals not covered by the warranty. Also, there has been a ton of warranty work done on-top of the required maintenance. I'd rather maintain a Benz than a Volvo. At this point a '96 Benz is probably more reliable than the 98 s70. Thanks again

hfrankel · August 2001

Just learned from my dealer that Mercedes is stopping and/or holding up delivery on all 2002 S Class sedans with the Active Body Control Option. The problem has to do with the suspension dropping down while the vehicle is at speed - so it's clearly a safety problem.

I'm curious if anyone reading/posting on this board is awaiting a 2002 S Class w/ ABC and what they've been told.

christchurch · August 2001

(1) If your go on to purchase the S320 (a great automobile) my suggestion is that you investigate warranties. Note: they usually will only warranty one up to 100k...so you are better off adding it at purchase time.

(2) Question: Has anyone out there have experience with warranties?
There are a lot of caviates to them. Suggestions?
(3) Anyone know about the Wynns warranties? I have heard good things about them...an old company.

The thing to remember is that these are high tech cars and they don't like to be fixed by "just anyone".
With a warranty you can seek out a good Benz dealer for service...and that guarantees genuine Benz replacement parts...more expensive but these Benz's like their own parts.

(4) Let's ask if anyone has owned a 1996 S320 and if there are any quirkes or items worth watching out for.

Good luck and let us know what you decided.

Christchurch

matt00 · August 2001

I have also looked into purchasing a used 320 s Class (1997). However, after reading/hearing stories of how high the cost of repairs are. I quickly changed my mind. Take a look at the following Web site Mercedesproblems.com you will see what I am talking about. Sure every car is expensive to repair, but a rearview mirror that costs over $600 to replace because of the electronics is craze. Parts and labor will cost a fortune to keep this car in tip top shape.

I decide to stick with Lexus! I am currently looking at a GS300. It sure is a shame because the old body style on the s is nicer then the newer one!

drew_ · August 2001

The reason why the mirror is so expensive to fix is because it is electro-chromatic and it's also adjustable and linked up to the car's seat memory (along with the other rearview mirrors).

The old body style had a lot of presence, but the new car is far sleaker, more modern, and a lot sportier.

Drew
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lenscap · August 2001

For your reference, a friend of mine had a 1995 SL600 that he bought new. A few months ago, at 34,000 miles, the air conditioner went out. The dealer wanted, sit down, $6,200 to fix it! Part of the cost was the labor involved -- the entire dash had to be removed to access the parts. The car was only worth $35,000, so my friend traded it in on a Lexus LS 430.

w210 · August 2001

lenscap - Your friend got ripped off big time, let us know the dealership so we'll stay away from them.

rexual · August 2001

Is there any credence to the story that 2002S are being held up at Port Of Entry until the MB engineers fix the problem with ABC (Sagging on it's own)? I thought the Airmatic was the problem not the ABC?

christchurch · August 2001

Does anyone know if there is an aftermarket
GPS -"On Star" kind of system that can be added to our Benz's (S 320 - previous great body style)
If so, let us know.
Thanks,
Christchurch

bitkahuna · August 2001

The dealer figured "hey, he bought an SL600 new, so he's loaded." $6200 is absurd.

Only 34000 miles in 6 years? Wow. And it's only worth $35K now? Any idea what it cost new?

ejerod · August 2001

Well November will mark the first anniversary of my 2001 S500. I've had a few monor grievances with the car all software related. The sun roof forgot what the closed position was and the module had to be replaced. Tail lamps burned out twoce for no apparent reason. COMAND system had to be replaced due to faulty software, reprogramming was not an option. At first I was a bit ticked off but then went to my Lexus dealer( I also own a 99 GS300) and I learned that Lexus has decided not to install the integrated phones due to problems with software conflicts. ( Oh yeah they had to order me a new Timeport phone too) It seems that the software program in the phone causes other computer controlled components to go haywire sporadically so Lexus has decided not to install them at all. Now like I said they had to replace my TImeport phone which gradually deteriorated over time until it just wouldn't do anything at all. If Lexus is having these problems I'm sure that the phones could be a contributing factor to Mercedes as well . I love my car. I finally told the dealer to keep it until everything was fixed and I could drive it with confidence again. Once the phone was replaced I've had no problems whatsoever. If anyone has/ is experiencing this let the dealer know that the phone could be the problem.. not the car.... I love this car and even with the minor aggravation would never go to the LS430.. the body style is just too bland for me.. now the SC430.. that's another story and another post..lol

lenscap · August 2001

For those that asked, here is some more info on my friend's SL600, which he does not own anymore.

It was a 1995 purchase new late in the 1995 model year. The car stickered for well over $100,000 (I don't recall exactly), but because the 1996s were on their way he paid about $95,000. It was not a demo or anything like that.

It had only 34,000 miles beacuse he mostly uses his wife's car.

Three different dealers in the Chicago area quoted around the same price to fix the AC, so it was legit. The dealers were Loeber, Mark and Autohaus. Aagin, labor was a huge part of the cost because they all said the dash had to be taken out.

The car was not traded in on the Lexus but sold to a dealer that buys and sells expensive cars (the dealer offered slightly less). Even he said the AC would run thousands of dollars to fix, so the cost does seem to be right.

boxer6 · August 2001

Thanks all for the input. I am now arguing with the wife to get the car. She doesn't want to spend the $$ for the upgrade from the volvo to the benz. As for te a/c, my brother-in-law had the s420 - 1996 and the a/c repair was quoted at $2,500 - Dealer: Ray Catena in NJ.

drew_ · August 2001

Just a reminder that the MB chat is on tonight (6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern). Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/mercedeschat.html

cvrinc · August 2001

Well, I have been reading the previous posts and I am sorry to hear that some have been experiencing some problems with their new S Classes. I must say that I have owned my 2000 S430 since July of 1999 and have experienced nothing short of the Mercedes tradition that I have always expected from Mercedes.

I have owned a '76 6.9 450 SEL (fantastic power, minor problem with the air suspension, but what a ride), '85 500 SEL (nice improvement from the previous generation and I ran it for 230,000 miles, never had a major problem), and a '96 S420 that was that ultimate teutonic ride.

But, when I saw the new S and the improvement made to the styling, safety, and technological advances, I had to have this car. IMHO, there was no comparison to the previous generation and Mercedes finally made the transition to a sporty S Class. In July of '99 you could not find this car unless you ordered it many months ahead and I just happened to be at the dealer when this S430 fell out because the guy was transfered out of the country.

I have been so happy with this car and when comparing to previous S Classes that I have owned, it is simply a joy to drive and puts a huge smile on my face everytime I drive it.

There has been a lot of negativity on this thread that I just had to relate my positive experience with the new S Class. And the positive references to the new Lexus LS430 has it's merits, but the Lexus copy cat look of the old S Class is amusing. The least Lexus could do is upgrade to the new MB S Class styling, but I guess they weren't up to speed at the time. Mercedes should be flattered about the imitation from Lexus over the years, but a MB S Class is still the most unique driving experience. There's something about that German heritage that the Japanese can't duplicate.

And one comment on MB dealerships, my dealer is House of Imports in Buena Park, CA. From the salesman to the service advisor to the service manager, they have been excellent. One problem I had early on with my 2000 S Class was with the air suspension. There was a problem with the early S Classes suspension holding air pressure. They replaced all 4 shocks, but that didn't fix the problem, it came down to the air pump was defective. Well, they felt so bad about tying up my car for this repair on 2 separate occassions, that they gave me a free Star Tac MB phone. I was going to buy one, but because of the the inconvenience of tying up the car for about a week, they gave me the phone for free. This dealership has been rated #1 for a number of years in a row and this service shows why.

Stick with Mercedes and in the long run you will appreciate what a pleasure it is to drive this car.

benznut · August 2001

You have had both the p[revious and the current generation for a long time each. Can you compare them on a scale of one to ten,(one, the worst ride you have ever experienced in a car, ten absolutely the best) both of them in ride, noise insulation and built quality. I would certainly appreciate that. Although I have driven my father's 500 Sel a lot of times, I have only had the pleasure to drive the new body style a couple of times, both about twenty minutes or so, so i do not know what it is liek to live with the vehicle.
Thank you v ery much. I look forward to reading your answer

christchurch · August 2001

Thanks for your insight into the new S class. It is really a fantastically designed automobile..fitting for the Benz tradition.

I understand from your post that you previously owned the S 430 ...last generation.

Could you share your pros and cons of that series?
A friend is looking at one now and is interested in advice.
Did you have any service problems unique to that model.
How much mileage did you put on the car?
Did you have an extended warranty?

These are all of things which I would like to pass along.
Thanks for the help.

Happy motoring.
Christchurch

cvrinc · August 2001

I have been busy and will answer your questions soon.

benznut · August 2001

does anybody know where I can get vidoe reviews for Mercedes Autos in internet, that work with Windows Media player.
I am awaiting for your response

jamie66 · August 2001

What phone came with the 2000 S430 if you purchased that option? Was it a digital or analog phone? Was it a flip phone?

cvrinc · August 2001

In answer to your questions on the previous & current S Classes, which I feel every new generation S improved over the last, here are my ratings:

RIDE NOISE BUILD QUAL.
'76 450SEL 6.9 8.5 8 9
* Under ride, the 6.9 had air suspension and the ride was great, but it handled like you would expect a car of that weight to handle. Noise insulation was very good for that year and the build quality was excellent. Everything worked like it was engineered for and this car was a screamer because of the 6.9 liter engine. Does anybody remember the 6.9's? The car was the ultimate autobahn high speed cruiser and the acceleration was a thrill. I wonder what the 0-60 times were for this car? I drove this car for over 100,000 miles with no major engine or drive train repair. In fact I never had the valve covers off. The only big repair was the air suspension due to system leak. Other than that, a great car with classic styling and of course the vault like sound when shutting the doors.

1985 500SEL 8.5 8.5 9
The ride and handling of this car improved from the previous generation. It was more nimble than the 6.9, but unfortunately lacked the power. But it was the '80's and we were fortunate to get any HP. The noise insulation was very good and the build quality was again top rate. I drove this car over 230,000 miles and had no major engine or drive train repairs! Again, never had a valve cover off. The only big repair was replacing the exhaust system complete with the catalytic coverter. This would have cost big bucks if the dealer replaced it, but they recommended an independent that did it for half the cost. Again, a great car that only lacked HP and a classic style.

'96 S420 9 10 10
The ride of this car was excellent, the only negative being the weight of the car hampered the handling a tad. However, it gave the driver the impression of being a smaller car. The noise insulation was the best yet because the windows did a great job. The build quality was second to none, no doubt about it. The materials used on the interior were top notch. The 4.2 liter engine performed very well considering the weight. I drove this car to 50,000 miles and did not experience any problems other than maintenance. Fantastic car.

2000 S430 10 10 9.5
The advances of the new S Class is well documented and I would have to say this is the best overall S Class ever. This car rides and handles like a sports coupe, very nimble for a car this size and a big improvement over the previous S. I found the noise insulation to be excellent. The build quality is very good, the only negative is the plastic on the interior. This has been some of the complaints vs. the previous S, but I will take this cars overall assets any day. Add all the technological and safety improvements and it is no wonder that many auto journalists have picked this S as the best car in the world. The new engines are fantastic (ULEV) and I get over 21 mpg with a combined city/highway conditions. The 4.3 liter engine performs better than the old 4.2 and I can only imagine the performance for the 5.0, 5.5, and 6.0 liter engines. The other thing that sold me on this car was when I saw the new S Class next to the previous generation S. It was like night and day. The new S styling was top notch and the old S looked old. And with Mercedes cutting the weight out of the car, adding all the new technology/safety and maintaining the room in the interior, for less money, I was sold. Not to mention the free maintenance! I remember very well the high costs associated with normal maintenance for the previous S Classes. This is my opinion is the best S yet.

cvrinc · August 2001

The post pushed together my rating numbers, so please note after '76 450SEL 6.9, the ratings are 8.5 Ride, 8 Noise Insulation, 9 Build Quality and so on down the list of the different cars.

pat · August 2001

Yeah, it seems like Web Crossing has its own idea of how to display spaces, never mind how many you might have typed. Aggravating, yes. One thing you can do is replace the spaces with periods - I think that would work.

Just a thought, maybe it would help for another time.

Pat
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PF_Flyer · August 2001

Just a reminder that the MB chat is on tonight (6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern). Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/mercedeschat.html

PF Flyer

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cvrinc · August 2001

I posted a response, but I can't find it. So, I will respond again. In regard to the '96 S420, (I assume this is the one because you referenced the previous generation 430), please see my brief review post #893. I did not experience any mechanical problems up to 50,000 miles when I bought the 2000 S430. My mileage for city was 14-15 mpg and highway was around 19. I would only buy a MB Starmark car and get the extended warranty if your friend is planning on keeping car for a while. If the car is in good shape, it is a great car.

cvrinc · August 2001

The phone I received for my 2000 S430 is black Motorola Star Tac flip phone.

It is listed as digital with the capability of switching over to analog for that type of signal.
the phone works great for hands free with steering wheel controls. And if you leave the car you can take it with you.

jamie66 · August 2001

I recently purchased a 2000 S430 with a factory phone from an out of town Mercedes dealer. I assumed the Startac was the only phone offered in that vehicle. However, when the car arrived it had a Mercedes analog phone. Is this right? Were there two phone options? Can I have a non-Mercedes Startac installed? Mercedes wants $500 for the retro kit and $600 for the handset.
Should the dealer have told me the phone was analog or is this a case of caveat emptor?

cvrinc · August 2001

I believe there were 2 phones that were available for the 2000 S Class. The first phones offered when the 2000 S hit the U.S. were analog and then later as it became available with the Motorola/Mercedes TDMA Star Tac Digital Phone. This digital phone listed at one time for around $2000.

A regular Motorola Star Tac will not work with fiber optics on the S Class, unless they have come up with an adapter kit.

Are you are saying that to upgrade to the digital phone they need the adapter kit for $500 and $600
for the handset? Is this with the trade of the analog phone?

And yes, the dealer should have informed you that the phone was the earlier analog version as it would have effected your negotiation for the car.

benznut · August 2001

Thank you very much for your ratings. They certainly were very helpful. I agree about the plastic inte new interior, as a matter of fact that is what I was trying to get at. However, things should change when the facelifted s-class arrives in 2003. Ten again, the S 600 and designo interiors already have better quality.

Mercedes-Benz S-Class

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