Toyota Echo

kneisl1 · October 2006

The valve guides will wear out first. At that point if the heads of the valves dont break off and smash the engine up the unburned fuel in the exhaust will destroy the catalytic converter. The valve guides are the weakest link. I think it unlikely they will last 500,000 miles. I wouldnt leave the origional timing chain in there for 500,000 miles either. If it breaks (or even jumps time) the pistons will hit the valves, ruining the engine. When I was rebuilding car engines the most common thing that happened was the owner not adding oil when the engine began using it.
But the rest of the car will be a wreck before that. It will need fixing on a regular basis, although that can be done with enough $$$$. At some point youll be spending so much money on repairs and losing the use of the car that it will make more sense to just buy a new one.
My brother in law, who has his own repair business, claims he has never seen a Toyota engine throw a rod as long as the oil was kept in the engine.

pulgo · October 2006

If and when the valve guides start to wear enough to notice the oil consumption, I will probably elect to replace them. At the same time it would make sense to replace the timing chain.

Next thing on my list of maintenance will be to replace the water pump, whether it is needed or not.

kneisl1 · October 2006

I would do a compression check maybe once a year. That will catch the sealing loss from leaky valves as well as other things that may be wearing out. (although those wouldnt be as critical) Have you had the valve clearances checked? Most likely they dont need any attention BUT if you find tight clearances that would lead to valve and seat dammage pretty quickly. The clearance should be checked every 60K miles.

scjfan · October 2006

After 53k miles I notice my original factory front tires have uneven wear more on inside. The outside wear of the front tires might still give several thousands miles of service, but the inside wear is very close to the bar. The rear tires will probably go for another 50k miles. I have never rotated the tires or done any alignment since I bought the Echo new. I just bought two factory tires from Tirerack. I plan to move the two rear tires to the front, and put the two new tires on the rear.

My questions are:

1) Do I need front end alignment? If so, will it correct the inside wear of front tires?

2) I have heard that there is very little adjustment that can be done on Echo's front end. Will the aftermarket alignment kits available from Tirerack be worthy to solve my alignment problem on my factory tires/rims?

3) When I move the two rear tires to the front, do I need to balance them?

Thanks,

Simon

kneisl1 · October 2006

I believe of the three possible adjustments the only one that can be done on the ECHO is toe in. Im not sure you have an alignment problem if you got 50k miles from the origional tires. Ive never heard of the alignment kits you mention.
But YES I would balance those rear tires before you put them on the front!

scjfan · October 2006

I just talked to a tire installer recommended by Tirerack on the phone. He said Echo has all three adjustable angles on the front end. He also recommended 4-wheel alignment. I will bring the car to his shop this Friday for tire mounting and 4-wheel alignment.

Please check out the following site for alignment kits:

http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/products/alignKits.jsp

pulgo · October 2006

Clearance was checked at approximately 120k miles and found to be exactly the way it should be, a little on the loose side of the specification. I'll wait until 250k miles to check the next time as it is not cheap to do.

kneisl1 · October 2006

No I imagine its not cheap but it is possible to do it yourself. If it needs adjustment thats another story!

nippononly · October 2006

they fixed my tire's slow leak today - finally found the time to spend a half hour at the tire store. They took out the TINIEST little staple - like the ones they use in those heavy cardboard boxes - you could imagine. It is hard to believe that something so small was causing me to put three pounds in per week.

They rebalanced the tire too, so a little bit of vibration that had developed in the steering has been totally smoothed out. :-)

kneisl1 · October 2006

On a cross country motorcycle trip I stopped in St Paul to see my cousin. There was a clevis pin about 3/16 in diameter and 1 1/2 inch long sort of SIDEWAYS in my rear tire. It wasnt even sharp. Her husband noticed it. No loss in air pressure. Just a few minutes earlier I was on the Minneapolis beltway in traffic doing 80 with cars passing me like I was standing still.
Once the balance weights slipped on one of my tires. It just went round and round the tire. I only noticed the vibe when I went 60 to pass a truck. Usually I go only 45. Took me a week to figure it out but they found it in the shop right away.

pesterkid · November 2006

Hello,
I hit a short iron marker thing in the parking lot which has messed up my bumper real bad, there is a big dent on one side.
Does anyone know any place in NJ where I can get this fixed?or some site/shop where I can get a new bumper if need be?
I am a bit sceptical about going to the dealer as it might cost 2 or 3 times more:(
Any suggestions?

kneisl1 · November 2006

Go around and get estimates. I think youre right about the dealer, but go there too. They probably subcontract out. Is the car driveable and inspectibile with the dammage? Once you see what its going to cost to fix (maybe $2000) you might just want to accept it as part of your ECHOs ageing process.

rep5858 · November 2006

Is it ok to tow a 500 pound trailer/boat 1,000 miles from philly to florida? I just go around the region now with no problems
thanks
rick

kneisl1 · November 2006

I towed a 16 foot aluminum boat with a VERY heavy trailer with absolutely no problem. Im not sure if this weighed 500 pounds but it must have been close. As long as you dont have the car heavily loaded otherwise I would do it. Tell us what happens if you do!

rep5858 · November 2006

I will . Going south in July . Thnaks for your response
rick

rep5858 · November 2006

I understand that on some cars the air induction is mounted low on the engine. This may cause water to get in when you go through water/large puddles.This in turn can damage the engine Is this true? Where is the air induction on the echo?
thanks
rick

kneisl1 · November 2006

The air intake is about the same level as the valve cover. There have been no complaints about that sort of thing happening on the ECHO. I think its unlikely that is a problem for the ECHO.

babyboomer · November 2006

I sprayed the dull black plastic molding on my Echo with WD40 to give it more of a shine and it seems to be working. Did I do wrong?

kneisl1 · November 2006

Armour all is traditional for that sort of thing.

nippononly · November 2006

WD40 kind of too runny for that purpose? You would either avoid runniness by putting on a very small amount, which wouldn't have much effect, or if you put enough on to have an effectm, it would run all over the place. Also, you would want to use something with a sealant, like ArmorAll. WD40 is a very light mineral oil - the first good rain and it will be gone.

But if you are asking if you damaged anything, no, I don't think you did.

reba05 · December 2006

Sorry, I don't know about NJ, but I was rear-ended earlier this year. Dealer sent me to a repair shop they use and the cost was $3200. Insurance covered it though so I was not concerned by cost.

babyboomer · January 2007

I always make sure my tires are rotated and balanced at the recommended times on my 2001 Echo. After 66,100 miles I realized that I have never had the car aligned. A defective tire was replaced this week so I asked him to check the alignment too. The technician said it was off by very little. Not enough to be noticed but maybe saved some wear on the tires. The mechanic recommended and I agreed that the transmission be serviced too as preventive maintenance. Do you think I wasted money?

kneisl1 · January 2007

About the only thing that is adjustable alignment wise on the ECHO is the toe-in. My son just had a drive shaft replaced on his 93 Altima (complete disassembly of the suspension)and it drove just the same after as before (which is excellent) Ive put front ends together that WERE adjustable, brought them to the dealer to be aligned and been told "Its fine." (no WAY it could be fine...) So I dont put much trust in people aligning my cars. Its probably a good idea every year to check the tie rod ends, ball joints, and steering rack for wear at this point in the cars life though.
What "maintenance" did they do on the transmission?

nippononly · January 2007

Of course, toe-in is the most important adjustment in terms of reducing unnecessary and uneven tire wear. It is worth doing once in a while, like maybe once every two sets of tires! :-)

babyboomer · January 2007

I assume he replaced the transmission filter and fluid. Mechanic said he sees many cars with transmission problems that never had this done. Toe-in was off a little. I think the money spent on preventive maintenance is not wasted but sometimes I hear about cars that are driven forever without PM. Paying for PM is like an insurance policy or seeing a doctor for a routine check-up. Even when no problem is found, it gives peace of mind.

kneisl1 · January 2007

The owners manual says its not necessary for normal service to change the oil in either the manual transmission or the automatic. I agree, although because it only cost $15 I did change the trans oil on my manual at 30 k miles. This guy who "changed" the oil on your automatic, how many quarts did he use? Its impossible to change ALL of the oil in an auto without special equipment. If he just changed the filter then he only put in like 2 quarts of oil. I believe the auto in an ECHO takes 8.
More and more the mechanics I see are rip off artists. My wife recently took a car to a mechanic to have a single fuel injector changed. The guy said she needed new windshield wipers and charged her $40! I mean WTF he was told to change an injector and he pressures her to get wipers too! PLUS he said the car need new spark plugs (not so they only had like 12k miles on them) and for this he would charge her $70! Those plugs probably cost him like $1 each and take ten minutes to install. If you yourself dont know anything about your car and its requirements you are completely at the mercy of these people. Its not a pretty picture.

babyboomer · January 2007

So the moral of listening to the mechanic's recommendations is to always check with the owner's manual first, and get a second opinion.

kneisl1 · January 2007

I would say the moral is: do your own maintenance. Its not hard and you will learn a lot about your car in the process. Thats will help when it comes time to get the services of a "professional" mechanic. And you can always ask me if you need any help.

larrykingry · January 2007

Hey kneisl1, I have a 2002 with about 70,000 miles on it. No problems up to this point. I performed the 30K mile service myself, because the dealer wanted between $450 and $700 for the service. The manual calls for checking the valves at 60K. How important is that? MPGs are still high and again no problems noted. Should I go ahead and check the valves or just leave well enough alone?

kneisl1 · January 2007

You can CHECK them yourself. Its much harder to ADJUST them. In fact if you search back a few hundred posts I wrote a series of DIY articles on how to check the adjustment yourself. The arrangement Toyota uses for the valve train is the same as for many modern motorcycles. I have checked (and adjusted) the valve clearance on many (all) of the motorcyclrs I have owned.
Because this is a VERY uncommon system to have on a CAR, I am very suspicious about the ability of even Toyota trained mechanics to PROPERLY adjust (or even check) the ECHOs valves. CHECKING the adjustment is definately within the abilities of the home mechanic. If you can change the brake pads on front wheels of your car I would say you could tackle the checking of the valve clearances.
In my experience the system for adjusting the valve clearances on the ECHO is very stable. It was not unusual for my motorcycles to go over 100,000 miles WITHOUT a valve adjustment. I suspect the same will hold true for the ECHO. BUT every once in a while there IS an adjustment necessary. What you are looking for are tight clearances. That is, the gap between the cam lobe and valve follower is LESS than specified. This can cause the valve to remain slightly open when combustion takes place and result in a burned valve and the engine will need a valve job. If even ONE valve gets burned that will mess up the engine. Now, the other thing that can happen is a clearance that is GREATER than specified. This will result on some valve train noise, but will not harm the engine unless carried to extremes. So if you check your valve clearances, you are looking for clearances LESS than normal. If you find that, then you want to adjust it.
Here is what I recommend. For the vast majority of ECHOs out there, the current adjustment will last the life of the car. Even if the gaps get larger over time and the valves become noisy, that shouldnt be a problem. Its a pretty sound stratagy to leave it alone. BUT there will be a small percentage of ECHOS that get tight valves and need valve jobs. Certainly if you are at all handy, you can CHECK the clearances yourself. If you find a tight valve then you can have Toyota adjust it. (Or sell the car if there are other problems). This might cost like $700! I dont know. There can be a lot of labor involved. And I have a feeling these mechanics dont have a lot of experience doing it because so few ECHOs were sold and almost no other car I know of uses this arrangement.
Personally I myself will be checking my adjustment at 60k miles. At the current rate I am driving my ECHO, that wont happen until the car is like 11 years old! If all is well otherwise with the car at that time, I will check it myself. If it needs an adjustment, I will do that myself also. (although I will need parts from Toyota and who knows if they will have them then!)
In any case if anyone checks the valves I would like to hear about what you find. I can also offer advice on what course of action to take. Good luck!

larrykingry · January 2007

Kneisl1, Thank you for your reply, offered information and advice. I will probably check the valves myself when I get some extra time. I will let you know how it all turns out. Again, thank you for your reply.

kneisl1 · January 2007

Have any ECHO owners gotten a SLUDGE problem? This apparently affects the 2.4 liter four and V6 engines Toyota makes. Some say the bucket type valve follower (which the ECHO also has) is responsible. Frankly, I think this problem is likely caused by infrequent oil changes. But my ECHO would seem to be a candidate because its driven so few miles at so low a speed.

nippononly · January 2007

It was the 2.2L fours from the late 90s Celicas and Camrys. Also the 3.0 from the Sienna, Highlander, and last-gen Camrys.

Apparently, some of the oil passages in those engines were made too small, allowing insufficient oil cooling and causing too much disparity between oil temps higher and lower in the engine.

This sludge thing is very old news at this point, and never affected any of the 1.5s.

kneisl1 · January 2007

Hmm my mothers 92 Camry has that 2.2 engine. Currently it has like 150,000 miles on it and my daughter drives it. No sludge problems as Ive changed the oil three times a year.

bpaigo · January 2007

Hello, i am 18 and I have an 02 toyota echo, and its green. Over the summer I let my mother use the car to go to work for about a month, untill my parents found another car. Well one day she was driving along and at an intersection she was t-boned in the drivers side by a 2005 dodge caravan. Put her in a 360. She was ok. the car held up very good. total damage was $2500 she was at home for about 2wks because She has back problems so it made it worse. But she is ok, and the car never crushed inside the car. so this car is very safe I think. I love my little echo.

kneisl1 · January 2007

Is the ECHO repaired and back on the road?

bpaigo · January 2007

Yes it has. It took about a week for the place to fix it. It also needed a new wheel alignment in the front, because of the spin. they had to basicly melt the rear drivers side tire wheel well to bend it back it too shape. Because it was crushed. And It needed a new wheel cover. She told me thank god for the seltbelt becuase it was the only thing that kept her in place while in the spin. its still parked in the driveway. I runs great and still looks great.

kneisl1 · January 2007

Today I drove my ECHO with its new Khumho 758 tires in the snow for the first time. What an improvement! With the Bridgestone Potenzas the car was very prone to swap ends and had terrible traction. Tire Rack said these tires were one of the two or three best in snow and they appear to be right on the money. Havnt had them in deep snow yet but arly results are encouraging.

nippononly · January 2007

about putting the TRD lowering springs and matched shocks on my '02. I keep thinking it is such a light nimble car, with great traction (running rather boring Toyo Spectrums, but they are very good at sticking to the road) and quick accurate steering response, it is a shame the car doesn't have the stock suspension to match.

I am going to take the first step this week and find out parts and labor costs. If it isn't too much, I may go ahead in the next few months. I also in the future want to get a set of the factory 15" alloys for the new Yaris and stick 'em on there to replace the generic 14" steelies mine has.

TRD also has a clutch pack for this model, to replace the super-light stock clutch. That's a long-term possibility, although I wouldn't do that until the car had at least 100K miles. The rims will probably wait until at least 100K too, so I can use up most of the tires that are on there now.

One step at a time. The only thing that seems urgent for the time being is the suspension.

nippononly · January 2007

So retail on the TRD suspension lowering kit for the '00-'03 Echo is just over $1000, and includes the springs and a set of matched shocks/struts. And what with the age of this model and the reorgnization of TRD last year, they are just about gone. I have the parts lady at my local dealership checking on one that came up in the computer as being in stock in Massachusetts. It seems they are gone on-line - I have been checking all evening. A year ago when I looked, they were still around, but TRD doesn't support models for long after they have dropped off the market.

There are some aftermarket kits (Eibach makes one) but I want to go with TRD for the warranty and because they do the best job of modifying Toyotas, in my experience.

The dealer wants $550 to install it and do the alignment, and if they do it the whole thing will have a 1-year parts and labor warranty.

If she gets back to me tomorrow and says they have it, and it's not just a computer glitch, I think I will go ahead. I am not trying to turn the car into a sportster, but rather just to bring the suspension up from "seriously floppy" to "decent". This car is great in so many other ways, it's a shame Toyota decided to go so lame with the stock suspension.

TRD also used to make a clutch kit for this car, and that is also disappearing because of the discontinuance of the Echo. However, they do have one for the xA, which is virtually identical in terms of powertrain, so I wonder if it would fit.

I wouldn't do anything about the clutch until it failed, which might be (hopefully) a few years out yet (just coming up on 80K miles).

The next thing I want to do is put some of the factory 15" alloys from the Yaris on my car, with some 185 tires, or maybe even 195s. I figure the cost of a set of four rims will run up near $800 or $900, so that's at least a year out (as is the necessity of replacing the tires).

kneisl1 · January 2007

A clutch could last decades if driven sanely. The one on my 74 Beetle went over 250,000 miles (granted it was all highway commute miles) and was still good when the car was scraped. I put 153,000 miles on the one in my 79 240D and it was still origional when I sold the car in 2000.
You might want to take into consideration the fact that the car might be nearing the end of its economical service life by the time you do all these mods!

nippononly · January 2007

Oh yes absolutely. It is at 80K now, and if I go ahead with the TRD suspension I will be betting on it making it to at least 180K.

I will do the rims next time it needs tires (or maybe a little before), which will be 100-120K. Again, I am hoping that mileage is NOWHERE NEAR the end of its service life.

As for the clutch, the plain and simple truth is that if it lasts as long as I hope it will, by the time it needs replacement, the TRD clutch kit will no longer be available anyway. If it needed a clutch before 150K, I would probably replace it with OE parts. If I get beyond that mileage and the clutch begins to wear out, knowing me I will probably just sell the car and get something new.

nippononly · January 2007

Well, that last TRD suspension kit was a ghost, it wasn't really in stock at the dealer that said they had one. I guess I won't be lowering the car. My local dealer is looking into getting an Eibach kit for me, which would be several hundred dollars cheaper, but the whole reason I wanted the TRD was because their kits usually have a modicum of street comfort left in them, where knowing Eibach that kit will be crashy and hard, like driving on rocks when I drive down the street. It would have great handling I am sure, but I am looking for a more balanced package. Plus TRD stuff carries the full 1-year warranty parts and labor. And it's designed specifically for the Echo, where the aftermarket kits are designed for a whole big group of models, and then just adjusted slightly for mounting points for each individual model. I am sure there are no models the Eibach kit is made for that have as short a wheelbase as the Echo, which is a crucial element to consider when designing suspension for it.

I will probably still go ahead with the larger factory alloys for the Yaris and larger tires next time the tires need replacing. I have to find a way to fill up that cavernous wheel well with more than just tire. :-)

kneisl1 · February 2007

We're having more snow in NJ. More chances to try out the tires I bought to replace the Bridgestone Potenzas. Those would be Khumho 758s. Even though I have them only on the front wheels, the difference is noticeable. How Toyota ever sold this car with such terrible tires in snow is amazing.

nippononly · February 2007

is one of the most mediocre tires ever produced, I had them on my old Subaru, and they were awful in the snow. They were cheap and durable (the OEM set lasted almost 50K miles), that was the best you could say for them.

A woman who lives in my complex has an Echo and has Michelin Harmonys on her car - she says she pays attention to such things, and they have been very quiet and have lasted her two years so far. She says she drives a lot. I might go back to Michelins if I buy another set of tires for this car.

pulgo · February 2007

On my 2001 Echo the original Michelin Tires lasted 95k miles. I replaced them at 4/16 of an inch of tread, just to be safe. Now I have Yokohamas that after 60k miles still have 7/16 left.

I suggest buying tires with an index (UTQG) of at least 500, good for about 60k to 70k miles or more, depending on the type of use.

kneisl1 · February 2007

Given that I drive so little (4800 miles in 2006) Im more worried about the tires NOT wearing out and ROTTING instead!

pulgo · February 2007

When I lived in Germany (90's) service stations would recommend replacing tires when older than 6 years, regardless of mileage due to possible damage by the sun and the environment (drying out and cracks).

kneisl1 · February 2007

If I drove on the autoban yes it would be new tires for me very soon! I find since I almost only use my car for a 45 mpg commute to work you can get away with tires that are much older than one would normally be comfortable using.

kneisl1 · March 2007

I forgot to mention I had to put a new battery in my ECHO a few weeks ago. The only thing that SUCKS is: it didnt need a new battery!The car is just over six years old. It was about 5 or ten degrees in the morning for quite a while. One morning the starter would even turn over. I thought "Well, here it is new battery time." The first non regular maintenance item Ive ever done on this car. I SHOULD have noticed that the ignition lights were quite bright even though the starter didnt work. I got a new battery and put it in and turned the key: bright lights but no starter! Oh [non-permissible content removed]! This cant be happening! I mashed down the clutch pedal a few times, felt a CRUNCH as the ice in the fookin' "safety switch" broke allowing the contacts for the starter to touch. Then it worked! The battery was probably perfectly good. Merde!

Toyota Echo

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles