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Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans
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Comments
But regarding the resale value, I typically keep my cars 8+ years, so I don't think it becomes so much of an issue. Besides, if I want wind in my hair, I do have a Mazda Miata as a 3rd car!
Clark217
* Open a new window in your browser
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Here's a photo of a Ohdner Calculator from Germany/Austria in the 1930's I think:
I hope this works for you.
Regards and good luck
I followed their instructions, but apparently they don't really cause an upload to occur.
Sysop...what's up with this? Did I do something wrong.
No offense meant -- I'm just curious because almost two years ago I "upgraded" my 2000 E320 from 16" to 17" wheels and tires. I'm absolutely delighted with the changes in handling, road feel and responsiveness.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND that if you do not actually own the picture, you should simply link to it. If you use the img src tags to display a picture which you do not own, the Town Hall is open to some serious copyright issues -- and therefore your message will be removed.
OTOH, links to pictures you don't own are acceptable and appreciated, as long as the site hosting the picture does not mind.
would be very much appreciated.
Louis
I'd check the E320's owner's manual for instructions for using the transmission to augment normal braking.
If there aren't any instructions advising you how to do it right, you have to decide why not.
If you have ABS or traction control and use the transmission for braking, I sure hope someone in Germany wrote some traction and braking control software that can figure out what you are doing.
Plus "saving" the brakes or brake pads on an E320 by using the transmission does not seem to be a favorable $$$ trade-off. I would think an out of warranty transmission replacement would be several thousand dollars.
IMHO, Use the pedal, waste the brakes.
Louis
Clark217
BTW, I notice that if I floor the accelerator, the engine builds serious rpms before the transmission downshifts. There is about a 1-2 second lag before the downshift. Is this normal?
Wally
Jean
I have routinely used downshifts to help slow my car with no ill effects. Incidentally, when the cruise control is engaged while going down a steep hill, the car will downshift in order to maintain the selected speed.
Gee, fellas. An M-B is supposed to be a mecanically robust car that will last forever if properly maintained. Downshifting for engine braking has been around since automobiles were invented: I'm not sure that a lack of an owner's-manual description of its use is any indication at all that it's not recommended. The operator's manual is not driving instructions (except for the "warning" additions required by their liability lawyers).
Why would M-B include a downshifting function if it were possible to inflict excessive wear or damage on the car by using it? In fact, if you ever use the speed control on this car, IT downshifts! The M-B "electric foot" is more than just a throttle control (as found on most cars). If you've set the speed and the car finds you accelerating down a steep hill - it downshifts! Try it!
My 2000 E430 operator's manual includes six pages of transmission operation instructions. The only thing it warns against is coasting for a long time in Neutral. THAT will void your warranty. This section also describes the elaborate protections for the engine and transmission even if you do command a shift.
Downshifting for performance and upshifting for economy are well-established automobile operating techniques. The manual warnings have to do with over-riding the protections of ABS and ESP - not for wear reasons.
Check with those knowledgable (??)folks at your M-B dealer, and I'd bet they'd tell you that the system was designed for this. The "strain" on the drivetrain should be no greater than a quick acceleration followed by a quick lift off the gas pedal.
IMOH, cars in this class are meant to be driven, not babied. In an E320, there should be no problem since the same transmission shows up in the E430, E500, and probably other, bigger, heavier MB's, too.
Perhaps I'll eventually regret it, but I use the touch-shift function all the time.
Drive on!
I feel that MB's track record with both Consumer Reports and JDPowers long term dependability would give one pause before believing " An M-B is supposed to be a mecanically robust car that will last forever if properly maintained." That's a very big supposed to be... and the reason behind my cautionary advice.
In fact MB dependability is shown by both of the long-term monitioring by both of these companies to be average or below, depending on model and year. And we aren't talking about light bulbs here. Recent E-class were Average 97-98, Below Average 99-00, Average in 01. The 2000 S (first year, please forgive them for beta testing 70K cars with consumers) was Poor dependability.
Since maintenance is "free" (i.e. built into the car's price) and the car bugs you to death about getting serviced, you have to assume that most Benz get the love and care they need, and still don't hold up as well as other vehicles.
Plus, if your Benz is equipped with traction control and any of the Vehicle Stability Programs, it seems like to me that down-shifting in any conditions other than boulevard-straight line has you fighting the algortihms in the computer, much like trying to pulse the brakes in a car with ABS.
I'd also point out that BMW's move to the steering wheel paddle-shifting, but still clutch-based, SMG transmission for the M series is a pretty good indicator that for performance reasons, automatics as we know them must have some drawbacks to the quick upshift, downshift issues.
But hey, if someone wants to run around in a 3600 pound sedan, downshifting away like it was a sports car like Mazda Miata that's their call.
When I had gone over this some time ago, I must have misread the red check marks as 'below' when they are 'above'.
The E's overall rating is 'average', like this writer's eyes. Must be time for a trip to get them serviced.
Intentionally downshifting an automatic transmission to induce engine braking is, IMO, just plain stupid. You might get away with it for a long time (or not) but don't fool yourself into thinking that it doesn't wear on the transmission components. You've all heard the advice that brakes are cheaper than clutches? Well apply that formula to brakes are cheaper than Mercedes Benz transmissions. I hear $5k is a good deal.
Footie may have slightly misquoted Consumer Reports, but I agree with his conclusion. If you feel compelled to play with the shifter in your E Class, then perhaps you should have gotten a BMW 5 series 5/6 speed instead? They throw in better handling at no extra charge (sorry, cheap shot). Admittedly, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I employ a few in my company (one of whom drives a 2000 E430). A quick poll at the lunch table has them fully agreeing with me (and the year end bonuses have already been determined).
P.S. For the record, my old 300SEL 6.3 is still running (with another owner) on it's original engine and transmission. Cheap shot above notwithstanding, I am a MB fan, too.
What about POST 2000 MB transmissions?
As for footie's assertion about MB reliability, did the Consumer Reports coverage apply to MB transmissions?
First, for EPN2 - -
I'm astounded that you can buy a BMW clutch for $1000. And, BTW, it's the flywheel, the pressure plate, the clutch disk, throw-out bearing and the actuating mechanism that are at risk from clutch abuse. The clutch was the first part they picked up when they started building the engine/transmission sandwich outside car. I'd bet clutch-replacement labor alone is $1000-plus. No car manufacturer I'm familiar with will do warranty repairs for their manual-transmission-clutch-based cars, and you can bet it's for a reason. My son's BMW (which he bought used) has already eaten a clutch in it's first 50k miles. And, it is more than $1000 to fix it, fer. sure. Automatic transmissions have fully lubricated (and thus cooled) band and clutch actuation and linkage, and also have the "cushion" of the torque converter to mitigate the mechanical abuse arising from disagreement between transmission input and output RPM. Moreover, the M-B tranny is a 5-speed. This means that the gear ratios (and thus the RPM discontinuities) are smaller gear-to-gear, further reducing mechanical stress on the system. When you downshift an M-B transmission, there is really very little exciting happening, e.g. passenger heading for the windshield, air-bag deployment, or other signs that the system would rather you didn't downshift.
For footie.
I said that M-B's are "SUPPOSED to have mecanical robustness that will last forever if properly maintained". Sadly, this doesn't square with my experience, and the scary part is that most of my car's recurring maladies have little to do with mechanical issues. In terms of thwarting a computer's algorithms - the computer isn't looking out my windshield and I reserve the right to override what the computer is thinking to adjust for conditions I see that the "computer" can't. That doesn't mean that I "downshift(ing) away like it was a sports car like Mazda Miata" as you imply. Rather, that the function is there to be used as the driver sees fit and one should not shy away from using it for fear that the drivetrain won't take it. On "fighting the algortihms in the computer": some of the "software" in this car's computer bears scary kinship with a Microsoft Beta release. At any rate, M-B gave me the device to override the car's "algorithms" - - the "+/- gate" in the D position of the transmission - right at my elbow. This is much easier and more direct than that silly zig-zag shift-gate system that was part of the older M-B designs (and the current Jaguars, for example). In any event, the shifting patterns described in the owner's manual suggest that it's far more difficult to abuse the tranny (even if you are determined to do so), compared to the havoc a ham-fisted manual transmission driver can wreak. BTW, my 2000 M-B E430W4 doesn't weigh 3600 lbs. It's more like 3944 lbs and to that you need to add a full tank of gas (127#), a driver and 4 Pax (using the FAA bogey for passenger weight of 170# figure 850#) - some small packages in the trunk, and you're up to about 5000#. Even then, reasonable downshifting is probably OK - at least with an automatic. Okay, so it's not a miata, but it's still fun to drive.
My question for everyone - - do you think a downshift of one gear is more or less abusive than, say, stomping the gas from a dead stop and taking the car right to 100+mph at full engine power while going up through the gears? Remember that these shift points are chosen to maximally bracket the highest torque the engine makes at the next shift point. The performance of the E430 and E55 certainly encourage this, and the E320 is no slouch in the acceleration department, either. The major reason in this case for leaving the shifter in "D" is that at least one review of the car (Car & Driver, as I recall) found the performance of the car to be better left in Drive than with the testers fiddling with the shifter
However, you may be convinced that downshifting an automatic to create high enough RPM's to actually brake a 3,600+ lb sedan doesn't strain or wear on the transmission. I'm not. And I do believe that certain driving habits that produce excessive manual clutch wear will, in the case of an automatic, produce long term transmission wear.
I guess it's the point of doing it that I don't quite get. I've driven both the E55 and C32 and must admit that AMG automatics, while still not my preference, are simply supurb. Both automatically downshifted under braking and appeared to always be in the optimal gear for quick acceleration. They also have excellent brakes that did their job quite adequately with no engine/transmission assistance. I understand that standard MB transmissions aren't as quick shifting as AMG versions.
I can't say for certain, but I sincerely do not recall from my two peformance driving courses (Porsche and BMW) any instances of the instructors using engine braking around the courses. Downshifting was done almost seamlessly in conjunction with braking in order to keep the car in the sweet spot for acceleration. But not as an alternative to using the brakes.
I suspect - and please don't take this personally - that most automanuals and steptronics are not really performance enhancing, but rather aimed at giving the driver the perception of driving a manual. For me, I prefer the real thing.
I am driving MB's since 1975 with no/no transmission problems. Sometimes, in Europe (and elsewhere) I drove through mountains over 10,000ft. There no way you can rely on your brakes when driving through steep down hills, the heat will fry the disks and you will lose control. Only engine/transmission brakes (with little braking)can slow you down and help you take those tight turns on such mountains. Whoever driven up/down Haleakala Volcano in Maui or Hana Road (also in Maui) knows well what I mean.
The only enemy to Auto Transmissions is heat, that is why today's transmissions are equipped with their own radiators to dissipate heat.
Jean
Currently I drive a Jag XKR and Mercedes S 500 and continue to use the shifter to keep the rpms at the proper level for passing or turning. I never drive in "drive" around town leaving it for the freeway driving. When I drove a new BMW 745 it was the transmission set-up that convinced me that I wasn't interested.
You wrote: At any rate, M-B gave me the device to override the car's "algorithms" - - the "+/- gate" in the D position of the transmission - right at my elbow.
I don't think you can turn off ABS and don't know if the VSP has an on/off switch either. Maybe you can - I learn things every day, even how to read Consumer report graphs right. :=)
But I wouldn't think the algorithms are overridden - constrained maybe - perhaps it can't shift gears up/down to affect acceleration to increase/decrease rotational speed on different wheels, if it thought it needed to...
But the Stability Control system is constantly watching the entire vehicles dynamics with sensors much faster than us, using programs (hopefully not from Microsoft), to figure out whether the car is doing what seems to be intended. I think we are always better off doing that ...
It has the most freedom to do that when it has the full range of brakes, active suspension, and engine / transmission to work with.
I think part of the magic in newer MBs, BMWs, etc. is the car's ability to make you think you are driving better than you are.
You also say that it's your choice as to which device you want to wear more quickly. Right again!
But what you seem to be missing is the fact that the expected life of a Mercedes transmission, with or without downshifting, is probably many times more than the expected life of a clutch with a manual tranny. So, it stands to reason that the transmission will last for the expected useful life of the car.
epn2 -- thanks for the response. I guess the bottom line is that you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. I'll continue to downshift to brake or whenever, and I'm convinced that I'll never have to worry about abusing the transmission. NOW -- if I had a manual tranny, I'd wear out the brakes and NOT the clutch.
For CCE182: Oh, I have the charcoal interior. Thanks for asking.
(heh heh)
Please do not assume that I am encouraging other people to change driving habits and start hitting the gearshift. I am only trying to share some of my experience after 500k miles of driving on four continents. The beauty of this board is in its wealth of info. I learned a lot from it, and only trying to pay it forward.
Jean
The last sentence is what ESP is designed to do. ESP is not intended to stop the car; rather, it is designed to keep the car 'going straight' ... i e, no sideways motion allowed. One doesn't need to hit the brakes for ESP to activate. A real sharp turn at excessive speeds will call on ESP to activate. If ESP is turned off, one is relying on pure driving skills to avoid plowing or fishtailing.
ABS, on the other hand, simply prevents wheel lockup which may cause lose of steering control. It is therefore designed to keep the vehicle rolling until coming to a complete stop. ABS cannot be turned off.
www.av-wood.com/mb-bug.jpg
(I can't seem to make the [img src="URL"] thingie work, so you'll have to copy and paste the above URL yourself..)
You are almost correct, but missed one important point.
ESP also controls the throttle!
ESP's primary design objective (according to the owner's manual) is to "counteract over/understeer by applying brakes to the appropriate wheel to create a countervailing vehicle movement." It's watching driver's steering wheel position to determine "driver intent". But, in an obscure reference in the Owner's manual, ESP also has a "torque-reduction feature", which is, in effect, a throttle control. I have experienced the effect of this "feature" personally - - it makes climbing a slippery hill far more difficult than when ESP is disabled.
What we all should get out of this is that it's important to read the manual and understand exactly what ABS, ESP, and BAS (heretofore unmentioned on this website) are thinking about and the corrections they try to make to mitigate what "they" (these systems) see as a problem. (there are parallels in aviation - - understanding exactly what the autopilot is thinking and how it reacts to it's perception of the environment). In severe slippery conditions of the kind we experience in New England (and now, evidently, going on in North Carolina) it is possible that the better course is to disable (that is, turn off) ESP and drive like you were taught before these "autopilot" systems were put into their cars. I have 4-Matic and Blizzak's and still have found occasions where ESP is not helping.
BTW rbrenton88: Oh, I, too, have a charcoal interior. And a Brilliant Silver exterior, CLK wheels, E1, E2, K2a, COMAND, etc. (heh heh). Do you really care? By the way - re: Nappa Leather - - What's a "Nappa"? Is this similar to a "Nauga"?
Jean
Jean
If you are really worried that your dealer is screwing you, I would simply measure the rotor thickness myself.
That being said, what the dealer told you sounds reasonable enough. And as Jean indicated, rotor and pad life is strongly dependent on your driving habits.
I am still hoping to get a good deal on a 2003 E320 Wagon to replace our SUV before they change body styles on it, but I'm guessing the $2,000 under invoice I could have gotten one for in June/July 2001 (i.e. 4 matic w/ E2 for about $47.5k) is history.
Also, saw a 2001 E55 with under 10k miles in "showroom condition" advertised in the Washington Post today for an asking price of $55k, obo. Similar vintage M5's seem to still be going for the low $60's. The S class as well doesn't seem to be holding it's value on the used market as well as I would have thought. I'm wondering if Mercedes isn't pushing their new E class MSRP's into the territory that got them in trouble many years ago.
20% year one depreciation on a Porsche or Mercedes seems to be the norm.
As for E Class price creep I paid about 50K, 3 years ago for a 320. The BMW was at the time 10K less. Yes, that does seem like a big spread to pay between the 2 vehicles.
Regards
M