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Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans
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Comments
I have noticed that 1998/1999 E-class turbodiesels are often selling as used cars in the DC area for as much or more than similar mileage E430 V-8's (well above E320 gas). I'm sure this is limited supply related, but the turbodiesel is a Mercedes strong suit.
I particularly like the accceraltion, handling, comfort, reliablilty, and sound system of the STS. How does the MB compare?
Also, I'm many things are better on the MB. What are the advantages and disadvantages to the MB.
Does anyone know if $32K for a 2000 E430 with 29K is a good deal. Sounded pretty good to me, but I've haven't shopped this car before.
Any input you may offer is greatly appreciated.
I currently own a 2000 E430 that I have on the market for $35K with 23K miles. The car has the COMAND system, digital phone, and a 6CD changer. I think most of the issues with my E-class have been electrical, which seems to be consistent the MB from the C to the S class. I think the car is nice in terms of size, braking, etc. I guess one could just factor in a certain amount for electical components as the car gets older.
Example: 2000 E430 with 20k miles, loaded with Command/GPS navigation, built in phone, CD changer, showroom condition, balance of 7 year 100k warranty for $33,900 or best offer.
A friend of mine picked up an 2001 "S"430, fully loaded with under 30k miles for $39,500 from a departing diplomat. The car had been sold and serviced by Euromotors in Bethesda and still smells new.
Heck, if someone really wants to spend $42-45k on a used E class, there is even a 2003 E500 with 11k miles advertised for $49,900. I think that makes a lot more sense than paying $5-7k less for a 3 year older car.
Send your buddies south!!
I love my MB and did not miss the lack of a compass on the RV mirror, the rear heated seats or the automatic stowing upwards of the steering wheel when the driver's door is opened. My main frustration with the STS was its 18 gallon fuel tank -- twice around the block with that V-8, and I needed gas!
The MB has a 21+ gallon fuel tank, and I get 28 mpg at 85-90 mph on the highway. I think the handling of the MB is superior, and acceleration is similar. I upgraded my wheels and tires to 17", just what you'd get with an E430. You'll also have more than enough power and probably superior acceleration with the MB's V-8. And the tranny in the MB is smooth shifting and superb -- I love the ability to manually select gears by just bumping the shift knob left or right.
Reliability has been okay -- just one or two minor electrical problems taken care of under warranty. I have Xenon headlights (terrific!!!) and COMAND, which I'm glad I bought -- it's come in handy many times and isn't all that difficult to use. The sound system in the STS is probably better, but the upgraded Bose in my 320 is fine, including the CD changer in the trunk.
I have only 17,000 miles on the MB and I bought the MB extended warranty that will take me to 100,000 miles or 8 years. If you can find an E430 with that warranty, I'd definitely pay extra to get it. That probably means a Starmark car from a dealer, but you'll save in the long run.
Bottom line -- if I had everything to do all over again, I'd probably NOT have bought the STS and would have opted for the MB. The facelift and improvements in the 2000 models and later are great.
Hope this helps. If you'd like answers to specific questions, click on my user name and send me an e-mail.
Even though the E-Class was new last year there will some changes on the 2004's. If you order an E500 the transmission will be a 7-speed. Also the E320 may change to an E350 sometime during the model year with the addition of a larger more powerful engine.
Either way the car is great, I have an E500. the premium sound system is great, I would be careful on your color selection as I ordered the Stone interior which is nice but the carpets are very light and show shoe scuffs and dirt very easily.
If you don't care about getting a 2003, I'll bet that you can get a good deal now as the model year will close out soon. Find a dealer that provides good service (pick-up and loaner for service visits) and build a good relationship with them. Sometimes paying a couple of dollars more with a dealer that you trust is worth it.
Good luck!
Go with the 4matic if you can find one.
The other option for snow is snow tires on the Benz. I did this on a prior Benz I owned and it made a huge difference.
As for 320 verse 420 I only know that the 320 is quite powerful. In addition the MPG is great.
Good luck
I have to admit though that even though I run snow tires, the car is not a tank in the snow. The car has the torque biased to the rear (60 or 65 percent) and it really makes a difference. My wifes Subaru AWD sedan (and new wagon) which has the torque biased primarily to the front are both superior snow vehicles.
I would not buy one without some form of warrantee. Since you're talking used, I suppose that means the extra dollars for StarMark.
As far as 430 vs 320. I never drove the 430. I can get myself in plenty of trouble with my paltry 229 HP. The money I save every months on gas I throw in a bin toward future maintenance costs.
Regards,
BigRob
If AM is important to you, you'll need to spend 5 bucks on an el-cheapo Radioshack 9v transistor radio to carry with you.
Later,
BigRob.
I was coming back from Louisiana and Florida back in March and ended up in the middle of that fast moving snow storm that creamed southern Connecticut. I was on Rt. 95 west of New Haven for over 3 hours with SUMMER tires and the E was manageable the whole time. I think the weight plus the summer tires had lots of tread (they are Yokohamas that have a decent snow rating on Tire Rack) were the reasons it did OK.
I have to believe that the '00 and newer ones with ESP and ASR have to be pretty decent on snow, even without AWD. Of course if your driveway is 1/4 mile long and at a 10 degree slope......???? Or if you have a job where you must absolutely make an attempt to get there....
Keep in mind that the AWD system adds lots of parts to an already less than stellar reliabilty rating..
I did have a small accident recently and was amazed how well the car took the impact. A Ford Ranger Truck re-ended me pretty hard and did very little visible damage... just a bumper cap replacement, the absorbers behind the cover and a small nick on the trunk lid ($1,800 total). Because these thing will come up on any "investigation" on a car fax... I probably will keep it until the wheels fall off. I truly like the car and have had very little trouble with it. I'm a little afraid of replacing mine with a new model because of the new braking system, suspension, etc. on the 2003. Mercedes age so gracefully that replacing at every model change is not necessary.
Just my .02, Mark
BTW, the Washington Post had an article today about the results of a J.D. Powers survey on the reliability of German, American and Japanese built cars. Mercedes-Benz placed a horrible 26th (after being No.1 a short while ago), and German cars were rated BELOW American built cars. BMW placed a high 5th after Lexus, Infinity, Honda and Porsche.
This afternoon in 98 degree heat, the a/c fan quit (again). The compressor stays on, but the fan just stopped. Same thing happened last summer, and the dealer replaced "whatever" in the system. So I'm looking at still another trip to the dealer and leaving the car again. Even though it's under warranty and they provide a loaner, it's still very inconvenient.
In April, the engine warning light came on. The dealer replaced a sensor and also found a faulty brake system sensor that had to be replaced.
About 1 1/2 years ago my oil level sensor went bad and had to be replaced. That episode cost me lots of frustration and time.
Is anyone else experiencing these types of problems?
Finally, consider a 2003 BMW 5-Series sedan -- the main competitor to the E-Class, with BMW rated 5th overall in reliability by J.D. Powers. Right now, with a totally new and revamped 2004 5-Series due here in October, BMW is offering a $4,000 incentive to their dealers on all 2003 5-Series models. In fact I just signed on the dotted line for one at $2,000 BELOW invoice. With optional equipment (auto, Premium Pkg, Cold Wx Pkg, Xenons, and a Powered Rear Sunshade, Moon Roof, etc), it listed for $47,045 MSRP and $43,085 Invoice. What a deal on a VERY reliable German luxury car!
BTW, I just spoke to my MB service advisor about the a/c fan on my 2000 E320 being inoperative in this 98 degree weather -- would you believe the next available appointment (including a loaner) is July 23? Or, I can have the car at the dealer's at 7:30 a.m. and wait. Or, I can have my wife follow me there and bring me home -- so I can get the car fixed before the weekend! But she'll of course have to drive me back to pick up the car!
The BMW is looking better all the time.
My 320 oxen were shod with Napolean All-Terrain Booties.. Tread life wasn't too good on those crushed sea shell paved roads...
If that is true, then the JD Powers survey is meaningless and totally distorted in terms of a measure of actual quality or delivered problems. Can anyone verify the above rumor/suspicion?
Last week at 118,500 it needed a head gasket and a water pump. I've never owned a car before that needed a head gasket, but then I've never owned a car beyond 100K before either. I am disappointed that it needed a gasket so soon; many folks have said that they were able to go 150-180K before it needed that work. Apparently it is just this engine, the straight six, that has this generic problem. The newer V6 320 apparently is OK on this point.
What was kinda weird is that prior to the major engine work, the dashboard outside temp display had a problem in the second digit, so that if the temp was 87, the seven had a blank vertical row of LED dots right in the middle of the numeral. After I got the car back from my dealer, the missing column of LED's are gone...!!! The display is perfect again.. Go figure...
As far as overall reliablity, I've never been stranded by this car as I have by others, but it is far from the most durable I've owned. I had a 1988 Mazda MX-6 that was flawless until I traded it at 99K miles. And it was better than the E in cornering and lane changes, etc.. The suspension on it was great at high speed too. But of course it didn't have the solid steel-block feel of the E and its regal ride..
Is the high level of maintenance worth it? I don't know, but I sure wish I could've gotten another 20-30K before the gasket went. Cuz' it would have been traded for a 2001 or 2002 E next spring. If an '01 or '02 is going to be as maintenance intensive as the 96, I may move on to another brand, maybe BMW or Kia. (Just checking to see if you're paying attention!) Seriously, maybe BMW or Infiniti/Nissan or Accura. More or less in that order of preference.
barry45rpm: I second mbdriver's suggestion that you consider the 5-series. For the list price of the E500 you are considering ($65k), you are within $7k of a BMW M5. And $20k+ over a 530i. Regarding resale values, consider this: the local Mercedes dealer offered to buy my M5 outright for a $3,000 higher price than they gave my neighbor for his E55 on trade (SL55). The E55 had 4,000 fewer miles than my M5 and cost $3,000 more than my M5 new. If you are even remotely considering a Q45, I assure you that the actual cost of ownership of an M5 over 3-4 years wouldn't be much more; quite possibly less.
I've had my car in three times to fix two failures with my climate control system. First time they lectured me on the fact that I don't understand how a computerized climate control system works. When they actually worked on it they found the fan speed regulator to be faulty. It failed again the next season (mine likes to quit in the winter). Wouldn't be surprised if it's the same issue as it looks like they have part with a known defect history.
BigRob.
Which companies will be supplying the electronics and for which models?
this is the only link i could find the command will be built buy nokia
What a pleasure!
Do you have any insight or anecdotes (purchase, service, etc.) about each? We're looking to buy either a new e class next year after they offer the diesel and wanted your impression on the dealers.
I saw the JDP survey and am wondering if we should look at the beemer as well.
I also wonder whether owners of these cars might be unusually picky when they identify and report “problems.” You drive in to the dealership at the time you’ve reserved, pick up your free loaner car (or wait in the executive lounge with the Starbucks coffee and the high speed internet connection), meet with your personal Service Advisor, and show him the list of “problems” you’ve compiled; you put down every little thing you can possibly think of—at least I do.
No, these cars still aren't Hondas, but when the tires on my wife's Oddysey wear out, I don't think of complaining to the dealership about the car, I just buy new tires.
M
In MB's case the JDPower reported mean was 3.18 defects per car. Lexus was 1.63. The impact on owners is easily computed.
For example the likelihood of 6 defects in the Benz is just over 10%. It's less 1% for the Lexus.
This is why getting to know a good Mercedes service shop is critical to use of the vehicle.
JDPower does a good job of presenting individual year ratings on their 'consumer website' broken down by
Mechanical Dependability
Feature & Accessory Dependability
Body & Interior Dependability
Overall Dependability
Five Dots = Among the best
Four Dots = Better than most
Three Dots = Doesn't stand out
Two Dots = The rest
2000 E is Two Dots in all categories.
p.s. Statistical calcs per Robert Dovich's Quality Engineering Statistics page 54. 1992 ASQ Press.
Wednesday my a/c fan went out (repeat of same failure a year ago), and the best they could offer was to have me deliver it at 7:30 a.m. and wait, or drop off the car and have my wife follow and drive me home -- first available appointment was July 23.
But instead, I called HBL at 7:30 yesterday morning (they're just a mile from home!). What a great experience! Immediate appointment (8:30 a.m.) when I explained that my a/c was inop (95 degrees and humid). No wait to enter service lane. Service advisor greeted me while I was still in my car -- a really nice guy and helpful. Enterprise Rental office was huge, with chairs, current newspapers, and their agents were extremely helpful, friendly, etc. Offered coffee or soda and escorted me to my loaner after a 2 minute wait. What a difference! Loaner was a new Buick LeSabre (MBs were available). My car was fixed and washed by 2:30 p.m. My new service home is HBL!
However, the sales staff there POed my wife when we were in the market for the 2000 E320 -- she felt that their "supersalesman" acted as if he thought we might not be able to afford a new MB. I didn't have that impression, though. No experience with them since, but they're probably okay.
No recent experience with American Service Center. We shopped there three years ago, but they didn't have a car with color and options we wanted. Sales folks were very nice, though.
Hope this helps.
No offense, but I really disagree with your take on the JD Powers report. Most posters here, I think, would acknowledge that MB quality and reliability just ain't what it was or should be.
From my own experience with my 2000 E320, I really believe that MB quality has gone way south! And the service provided by my dealer has been horrible lately - read my Post #5029 to fredisdead. I only wish it had been as you described in your second para of Post #5025.
Again, no offense intended. If you have a newer MB and are experiencing no problems, great!!! I only wish I were in the same boat -- and thank goodness for the warranty on my E320 and the fact that I bought the extended MB warranty that will take me to 2008 with my E320. Guess I'll just have to put up with frequent trips to my MB dealer -- at least the one I just switched to approaches the kind of service and treatment you described.
And while I don't need AWD here in the D.C. area, I know I'd enjoy driving the 330Xi - it has a first class reputation. Hope I have the same reliability with my bimmer as you've had with the 330.
How is the 530i availability - are you ordering or taking a car already in stock/production?
Other posters here report that VOB is selling at $2800 below invoice, but I don't have any direct experience with them or any of the other Maryland or Virginia dealers. My experience with Fairfax was very pleasant and there was NO pressure. I should take delivery by Wednesday. BTW, my salesman tried to add two more charges for over $300 that he said were on the invoice and that the dealer would have to pay -- BMWUSA advertising fee and training fee. But I reminded him that fees for our deal included only their $199 processing fee, taxes, title and tags. He quickly backed off. Nice guy, too.
Hope this helps.