Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans

mark156 · October 2003

My 2000 E430 only has 23,000 miles and has been 99.9% trouble free. I had one fog light assembly replaced under warranty (did not aim straight). Also, the two vanity mirror visors were replaced. The flip up door popped off both.

My only out of pocket expense has been a new set of Michelin Pilot Sports. ($900)

rtcjr: You mentioned that you had a rattle at the back window area. When mine was new I heard what I thought was a rattle but it was the trunk lid gasket squeaking. I put a lubricant on it and it was cured.

Now, I'm thinking of trading my car in because I want a larger SUV. I think I could get at least $32/$33K on trade.

Mark

330iii · October 2003

Does anyone know where I can get the invoice prices for Euro Delivery on the 04 E Class? Is it possible to negotiate a deal for xxx amount over the Euro Delivery invoice or are dealers not budging on the Euro Delivery MSRP? Thanks in advance!

topdog047 · October 2003

My E430 will be 4yrs young in a few months - only 32,000 miles.

It is shocking to see how much MB has spent on warranty work due to poor quality materials-

First 3 years - 4 power window controllers -
vanity mirror lid
dash board- from the airbag perforation opening up.

Today - Both headlight and parking light UNITS due to serious deterioration of the lenses. Supposedly many labor hours. Went from yellow to crystal clear.

Second time to "redye" the front seat leather.
Replaced the gummy control switches on the steering wheel.

R/R the famous drink holder.

I'm sure they spent about $3,000 not to mention the loaners and my time -

Otherwise the car performs extremely well- especially after I replaced the OEM continentals with Bridgestone Turanzas - a world of a difference.

Are these problems SOP with MB ??? I am certain that the dealer enjoys the work.

Also, has anyone had problems with rust forming under minor paint chips - from rocks etc. It appears that if the prep and primer were done properly there should not be any rust-just chips,

Looking forward to your comments.

PS - I have a feeling that the battery is going a die right before the warranty expires.

merrel · October 2003

Just reached 18,000 miles on my 2003 E320. Do not want to spend $2600 at MB dealer for extended warranty. At what point would you suggest I get addtl coverage for another 3-4 years but from an independent insurance company? Shall I wait until my MB 4yrs 50k miles comes and go? Need some guidance. Thanks!!

habitat1 · October 2003

I have been anxiously awaiting the return of the E class turbodiesel to the US and understand they will be bringing in the E320 CDI next spring. From the specifications I've read, performance will be essentially identical to the E320 gas (0-100 kph in 7.7 sec) with 28/36 mpg city/highway ratings. If European pricing is any indication, the E320 CDI will be about $500 less than the E320 gas.

HOWEVER, I would really like to see Mercedes import the E270 CDI 6-speed manual transmission. A friend in London is considering one. It gives up a bit in performance (0-100 kpm in 8.4 sec) to the E320, but gets even better fuel economy and - here's the charmer - is roughly the equivalent of $8,000 less than the E320 CDI. A U.S. version E270 CDI 6-speed with a base price of about $39,900 would be a slam dunk in my opinion. Especially after BMW managed to both botch the design and significantly raise the price of the new 5-series.

Anyone else like to add their name to a buyer list to send to the Mercedes executives who apparantly think Americans don't know how to drive a stick?

footie · October 2003

If they can sell every 320CDI at $8K more, why in the world would they bring in the 270 because customers wanted to spend less?

nedzel · October 2003

While I certainly enjoy manual transmissions, I think there would be very little demand for an E-class manual transmission in the US. And Mercedes is not noted for particularly good manual transmissions.

habitat1 · October 2003

Both Mercedes and BMW offer a much broader line of vehicles for the European market than they do for the US. The claim is that EPA testing is costly and rigorous, so they elect not to bring the complete model lines into the states.

As for the 270 CDI 6-speed, that is a great car. A significant amount of the $8,000 price savings is in the form of lower luxury content. But for someone who wants a good performing, solidly built E-class, at an extremely competitive price, the 270CDI "Classic" model is as good as it gets.

Mercedes has pretty much handed the sport sedan market to BMW here in the U.S.. I believe they have created a self fulfilling prophesy that there would be little demand for a manual transmission E-class. I doubt that will change, but the 270CDI 6-speed would be a great way to introduce Mercedes to a lot of new buyers who think the standard E class is too stodgy and expensive and the C-class too small and inferior in performance to the 3-series.

brislance1 · October 2003

Could anyone out there help me with information on the approximate value of a 1984 500SL gray market car in perfect condition. My daughter owns the car and is thinking of selling it in the near future. It is black with brown leather, two tops chrome wheels and has been maintained by one mechanic by all three owners. Original paint and in Arizona since imported. It has 72,000 miles and is in mint condition. Since it is gray market, there is no model category on Edmunds. Any experts out there? Thanks for your help.

footie · October 2003

IMHO, I think that MB has two problems with 270CDI:

The image in the USA is 'luxury' not breadth of offering as in Europe. I would guess that they make 75% margin on the 8K difference in price. So WHY would they want to do sell 270CDI's in place of 320CDI's, unless they are going for a much broader product line here.

The U.S. is a tough market for a broad, highly differentiated model line. It's physically much larger than Europe with a similar population. Different models, say an E with $8K less content and a different motor, means different bits and pieces, more parts spread all over the U.S. for service. $$$!

I think that MB carefully weighs investments and puts money where they get the biggest bang for the buck. That's why I think that they won't bring it over.

Now, they could do something spiffy with Chrysler and put the 270CDI engine in one of their cars like a Sebring and hope it sells. The six speed tranny and torquey motor might cause a stir and help Chrysler out of its tailspin.

They gotta do something there before it really crimps their budgets for MB.

habitat1 · October 2003

You can extrapolate your question to "Why would Mercedes want to sell E320's in place of E500's"?

I think the E class taken down to the low $40k's in price would open up a market here. After all BMW sells a lot of 525i's with automatic and non-sport package in that price range, but Mercedes has nothing to compete and I think the E270CDI would stack up well against the 525i. From what I've seen from their German web site, the E-class over in Europe has at least 7-8 different engine offerings and 2-3 distinct trim levels (Classic, elegance, avant garde). I certainly wouldn't expect them to bring everything over to the states, but the E270 CDI 6-speed still gets my vote.

On the "luxury" image issue, if they can offer a C-class Coupe here, they certainly won't damage their reputation with an E270 CDI which is about 5 rungs up the quality/luxury ladder.

mbdriver · October 2003

merril - I agree that you shouldn't pay $2600 for a Mercedes extended factory warranty. However, I bought mine, to 8 years/100,000 miles for my 2000 E320, from Courtesy Motors in Chico, CA, just before the first anniversary of the sales date, for $1680 (I live in a DC suburb).

If you send me an e-mail, I'll provide contact info. BTW, my local dealer in Maryland estimated that the MB factory warranty covers about 90% of the original bumper-to-bumper warranty. I would opt for this coverage rather than an independent warranty company.

330iii · October 2003

I thought they were bringing the 4.0 liter turbodiesel over to the US sometime in the 04 model year for 2005.See Edmunds diesel engines article about it!

merc1 · October 2003

Wow footie you're making perfectly good sense, thats exactly what Mercedes does as far as deciding which models they'll sell here. Anyway, I think Mercedes will just see how well the E320 CDI does first, and then we might get the S320 or S400 CDI models next. I doubt they'll sell a entry level E270 CDI here too, but a C270 CDI would go like hotcakes, if diesels regain their popularity here. I don't see a manual diesel E270 CDI here, but Mercedes does a clutchless manual available over there for those cars.

M

nedzel · October 2003

A friend of mine is a salesman for a BMW/Mercedes dealer. The last time I spoke with him, he said that 90% of the BMWs that they sell are equipped with an auto transmission. Those of us who prefer manual transmissions are the rare minority in the US. The US market just isn't the same as the European market.

The emissions and safety certification is indeed expensive. For each model you have to emissions and safety test each variation of the powertrain. So adding a manual transmission option would be very expensive.

I'd love to see the E270 CDI 6 speed manual in the US, but I'd be surprised if they could sell more than 1000 of them.

mark156 · October 2003

Topdog.... I have a 2000 E430 sport and have not had the problems that you have had. I had one fog light assembly replaced because it would not aim correctly and both vanity/sunvisors replace. I have 23,000 miles and have had no other problems so far. My seats are fine, dash is fine, window controller----controlling.

I do have a few rock chips on the front but no rust and my headlight lenses are crystal clear.

I'm thinking of trading mine soon and hope to get top dollar, we'll see.

mark156

330iii · October 2003

So the E320 CDI will be available in Spring 2004 for sure?

330iii · October 2003

Hey folks! Let's start a Mercedes Benz European Delivery Discussion!

habitat1 · October 2003

Is there much to discuss regarding MB ED program?. Last time I checked (1999), the discounts were pretty stingy (4.5% +/-) and the dealers were not willing to further discount the full MB ED price. Every dealer I talked to said they could match the ED price by discounting the US delivery car.

Compare that with BMW where a new 2004 530i listing for $52k could be purchased at $1,200 over ED Invoice for about $46k.

Enlighten me if the MB ED program has been revised to offer serious discounts. From my past experience, it was simply a novelty.

330iii · October 2003

Your ED confidential wholesale invoice price for the 04 530i is a wee bit high at $46k with the 1200 dealer profit added,it should be about $39K and change before options.If you check eurobuyers.com that is ED MSRP pricing.

habitat1 · October 2003

The 2004 530i configured the way I want it has a US MSRP of $52,345 and an ED MSRP of $49,245. Eurobuyers.com does not list confidential wholesale prices for the new 2004 5-series. But if the ratio of invoice to MSRP is the same as the 2003 models (about 91.3%), then the US invoice price would be roughly $47,790 and the ED invoice roughly $44,960 - hence my estimate of getting the car at around $46,200.

Unfortunately - and the reason I am here looking at the E-class board - the 2004 530i is not only about $4,500 more expensive than the 2003 (could have got for $41,700 through ED), it is also an aesthetic dissapointment.

Back to ED: With BMW's program discount (7%) combined with several BMW dealers who have agreed to discount the car to $1,200 over the ED invoice, I can get a 5-series for roughly 12% under US MSRP. I believe Mercedes standard ED discounts are less generous (4.5% +/-)and, at least when I checked a few years ago, the dealers were unwilling to negotiate further discounts. I even had one dealer who offered to beat the ED price for a E300TD if I took delivery in the US. I'm not sure why.

Do you have new and different info on Mercedes ED program? A 2004 E320 CDI at about 12% under US MSRP would likely convert me to Mercedes, but I don't think that's likely.

330iii · October 2003

I have all the pricing on the 04 525/530/545 including MSRP and Confidential Wholesale price for US,Munich pickup and Diplomatic sales.It was not easy to obtain! An 04 E320 CDI for 12% below US MSRP sign me up!,with the diesel you have more torque and much better mileage.I wish BMW offered the 04 530d in the US,check out bmw.com the international website,the 04 530d has 218hp and 369 torque that's more torque than the 04 545i!

arrowana · October 2003

I just picked up my E320 today from dealer. One thing I wonder that the NAV isn't ready for E320. I asked my dealer, and they said MB will up date the NAV status latter. Anyone know any info. about NAV of E320?

pickle005 · October 2003

which model year did u purchase? 03 or 04?

richgeo · November 2003

Just recently, I am getting a grinding moaning sound when I slow down/brake at about 15 mph. Goes away when I reach about 10 mph. Dealer says the rotors and pads are fine, and the sound is nominal. I disagree. Also, I get a little vibration in the brake pedal. Car has 53,000 miles and at about 16,000 on the current pads/rotors. Dealer suggests I wait until the current pads wear out before I get a brake job. Any experience with this problem or advise? Otherwise I love the car.

microrepair · November 2003

My 96 E occasionally gives a little grunt just before coming to rest, not at 15mph. 6 months ago I had the front rotors and pads replaced and after a few weeks I noticed pedal vibration when braking at around 30-50 mph. Went back to my mechanic a few months later and he replaced the rotors and pads no charge. Said he would tell his parts supplier they were defective. What a difference, they are smooth as silk and stop on a dime!

The vibration is caused by a warped rotor. It can be caused by washing the car immediately after a hard drive. The rotors are still hot and will react badly to the cold water. So always wait at least an hour before washing the car. I recall washing the car right after a hard drive a few weeks after the rotors were first replaced and seeing the steam rise off the rotors. I learned my lesson.. For free this time..!

rbrenton88 · November 2003

I had a similar problem with my E430 Sport. noticeable groaning from the front end when braking or even rolling at those speeds, but especially when braking. The MB tech took a test ride and told me the tires were to blame. I didn't believe it.
Turns out it was the Goodyear F1 tires. As soon as I replaced them with Sumitomos, total silence.

Just food for thought.

donald02 · November 2003

What year is your E430 and how many miles on the F1's? I have an '01 E430 with F1's (21,000 miles) and it sounds like a rear wheel wheel bearing is making noise in a cyclical manner. Also, the car seems to follow road imperfections, especially when stopping. The MB dealer put it on the lift and ran the wheels and said he didn't hear any noise. I believe without weight on the bearings they may not make noise. What do you guys or gals think?

barry45rpm · November 2003

I know Sirius satellite will be a dealer installed service department option on the new E class, because the car has been pre-wired for it...(Omigod). What actually is involved by the installing technician? How much of the car has to be taken apart? What kind of satellite antenna is used and where is it located?

mbbuyer123 · November 2003

I am thinking of buying a '04 E320; does anyone know if MB has corrected the electrical and other problems that I read about in the '03 model? I emailed MBUSA but have not heard from them. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

rbrenton88 · November 2003

I have a '98. Replaced the F1s at around the same mileage even though there was a fair bit of tread left. I do recall that the noise was evident even when the tires were brand new. The F1 is a discontinued tire for a good reason.

w210 · November 2003

I think MBUSA had resolved the 2003 E's electrical problems by throwing in a COMAND unit to replace the regular Audio unit?

bentleyfam25 · November 2003

Anyone have any comments on the sport suspension of the E320? I have a BMW 5 series, and test drove the E320 without the sport suspension today. Nice interior, but it drove like grandma's Caddie. Does the sport suspension make a big difference? Thanks --

lex10 · November 2003

I too had a BMW 5 series and recently purchased an E500 sport. When the suspension is set at the sport 2 mode the ride is close to the BMW but not as hard. The handling is also very good, some people might prefer the BMW handling but I like the Benz. Hope this helps.

ong2000 · November 2003

I went to a Benz Dealer in CT last week to see the new 04/E320-4 matic, we discussed about the price and the salesman said they won't give any discount for that car. He also won't give discount for a car that we order from the factory.
But he will give discount 2K if we order the 2004-rear wheel drive.
I like to know what others think and experience about the price of 2004/E320 4 matic or rearwheeldrive ?

mark156 · November 2003

I have an E430 sport (2000) with 22,500 miles. I replaced my tires with Michelin Pilot Sports at 20K. I had terrible road noise with the old tires and they were very sensitive to road imperfections. The new tires made a world of difference but I still get a little road feel on rougher roads. I'm sure that is just typical of the low profile tires/wheels.

Mark156

525ied · November 2003

I hope this isn't a breach of protocol for the Mercedes-Benz Pricing Discussion Site, but I read the feedback in the posting above (#5373 by 330ii on Oct. 30th) about the BMW Euro Delivery (ED) Program while researching the MB E320. Since that time, I've decided to go with a BMW 5-series and I'd like to gain some insights / guidance about ED pricing on a new 2004 5-series. I've also posted a similar message on the BMW discussion site.

Currently, I'm considering purchasing a 525i or 530i via the ED program. I'd prefer to order from a San Francisco Bay Area BMW dealership. The best deal offered so far on a 525i is about 10% off U.S. MSRP (i.e., Base + Options), excluding destination charge of $695. Given the options I want on the car, the cost savings amounts to $4,350, which is $1,600 better than the cost savings of $2,750 advertised in the ED Program section of the BMW N.A. web-site.

Nevertheless, this still leaves about $700 on the table based on the cost savings opportunity described in posting #5373. It suggested a pricing of $1,200 above the ED invoice price and it was being offered by a few dealerships. Is anyone aware of a dealer offering this type of deal on a new 2004 5-series via Euro Delivery? If so, can you share this information.

boiler1 · November 2003

I don't know about the BMW EDP but my MB dealer says that they are being paid a flat commission to handle an EDP car and therefore have no room to negotiate. Does anyone know if this is true? Or is it because the 4matic that I want is going to be in relatively high demand initially? Anyone actually successful in bargaining on an MB EDP car?

habitat1 · November 2003

As far as getting a $1,200 over ED invoice deal, you just need to shop around the dealerships in your area. When I first began looking into the ED program, I was told by most dealerships in the DC area that the ED prices were "non-negotiable". Then I saw on this board where Passport BMW in Maryland will discount an ED car to $1,200 to $1,500 over the ED invoice. Since then, other dealers have offered to match this discount.

On the other hand, the deal you apparantly have been offered on a U.S. 525i - $4,350 under MSRP - is almost too good to pass up. That's under US invoice?!? Is that for a 2004 model? Demo?

As much as I am an advocate for ED, it's certainly not worth traveling to Europe to save an additional $700. You'll spend at least that in travel expenses and you will be without the car for 4-6 weeks after you drop it off in Europe. ED is good if you are a cash buyer and have another car you can use during the time your ED BMW is in transit between Europe and the US. But even I wouldn't do it unless the savings were at least $500-$1,000+ AFTER deducting for travel expenses.

boiler,

That's the same story I got from Mercedes 2-3 years ago when I considered and E320 Wagon. However, I am now considereing an E320 CDI when they become available for the US next spring and intend to check into the ED program further. I'll post here in the next 1-2 days what I find out from a friend who is a leasing executive for Mercedes.

boiler1 · November 2003

I'll be very interested to hear what your guy has to say. I printed off a list of all MB dealers within 100 miles but I'm not looking forward to all the calls. Would be nice to have some good info to start with.

habitat1 · November 2003

According to my contact, their dealership does not discount ED prices at all and he is not aware of any in the DC area or elsewhere that do. Also, he did not expect the E320 CDI to be avialable for ED pick up until at least 6+ months after it arrives here. Their delaership already has an informal waiting list, but they don't have any officiaol pricing or other information yet.

He guessed that the E320 CDI will come in at almost exactly the same price as the E320 gasoline, and will probably not be discounted much from MSRP until pent up demand is satisfied. Apparently, I'm not the only one who has been waiting for the return of the turbodiesel, since it's departure in 1999.

marsha7 · November 2003

purchasing a luxury or performance vehicle, used, to take advantage of depreciation...am considering Lincoln LS, Continental, DeVille, Q45, and LS400 just to name a few...also thought of 97/98 E420, 99/2000 E430...any thoughts in comparing them to LS400 or Q45???...also, any comparisons between the older E420 and newer E430???...anything to watch out for (i.e.any glaring defects or high maintenance items) on the 420 or 430???...from what I read on KBB, they had nice things to say about 420 and 430, almost wonder if the cars differ much except for 0.1 liter in engine displacment, but suspicion tells me that there must be a much bigger difference than that...also, if a used 420 or 430 has, say 50K, 60k or 75K miles, should I assume it is approaching "worn out" or just getting "broken in"???...can they really last 150K and up, or is that just urban legend by those who like MB???... also, what kind of repair costs should I expect for 420 or 430 (we have a local guy whose sign says he fixes MB products, along with other German and Swedish makes, nearest dealer about 25-30 miles away)...thanks for any and all responses

marsha7 · November 2003

add...how does the average reliability of a used 420/430 stand up against the Q45 and LS400, should I expect an MB to spend one week a month in the shop, can I drive thru Mississippi without fear of breakdown any more than normal with any other car???...

what should I expect to pay for a used 420/430 in Atlanta???...and finally, we have a number of "independent" MB dealers all over Atlanta, used car lots on the various highways, stocking anywhere from 15 to 35 used MBs, but they do not sell new ones...should I consider buying from one of these guys???...I know without big buildings and service depts, on 2-3 acre lots, they have a much lower overhead than a franchised MB dealer, so they may sell better, but is it worth it???...some of them in quasi-seedy parts of town, do they sell real MBs, or only grey market cars to avoid???...in essence, should I risk a nonfranchised dealer to save money, or am I making a huge mistake to even consider such???

mbnut1 · November 2003

In short you should probably buy one from the dealer and get the Starmark warranty. These cars in general aren't as reliable as the Japanese makes. Reliabilty and durability are not synonomus. Mercedes are generally nicer cars at 100K than any Japanese car. It just probably took more trips to the shop to get them there. People who buy them know that but just arent'satisfied with the Japanese car the driving experience.
If you don't siginificantly prize the difference in the way the Mercedes drives vs the Lexus go for the Lexus.

The E430 and E420 engines are significantly different. The later E430 is a simpler, less costly and more efficient design which should be less costly to feed and maintain in the long run. True enthusiest would probbably prefer the cams and valves of the 420 but most folks wouldn't know the difference.

parfive9346 · November 2003

I just ordered a 04 E320 AWD w/command & nav, Hands free comunication w/VCS, and a few other trinkets.
My present car is a 00 E320 RWD with a hands free phone system and an after market nav system with a motorized screen that flips out of the compartment located just above the ashtray.
I will be removing these items when I turn the car in sometime in late Feb 2004.
Is anyone interested in purchasing these items for their 2000 (or earlier) E classes ?
The cost of the hands free system (new) when installed by the dealer was about $1500.
The cost of the CD based nav system was $1100 for the motorized screen and $500 for the CD based unit.

footie · November 2003

I agree with "MBnut" that if you buy a used MB it should be from a dealer and starmarked. The simple reason is as he states, that a Mercedes has a higher frequency of repairs both during and after the standard warranty expires.

However, I believe that it's incorrect to say that 'durability' and 'reliability' are unrelated. Think about it ... if something is so durable, how come it fails more often than the same items in competitive vehicles?

When it comes to automobiles and almost any other manufactured goods, reliability and durability are directly related.

Reliability in this case, is the likelihood that the car will serve its purpose, whether its driving through Mississippi or down to the local convenience store. Durability directly impacts reliability. The longer a component or system in the car lasts, the more time that elapses between failures and therefore you get better reliability. Reliability is also impacted by poor design, out of tolerance components, incorrect assembly and in the case of software, "bugs".

Mercedes' less that stellar reliability is directly impacted by all of these issues. The Japanese car companies, independent of where their vehicles are made, simply design and build higher reliability vehicles. Toyota usually ranks in the top three in any vehicle segment and Lexus usually is #1 in its class. Overall Infiniti ranks right behind Toyota.

I also recently read that there are more "reported" very high mileage Toyota's around that Mercedes in the U.S. including the 1983 Toyota Corolla in California with 2.3 million miles on it. Durability is not an issue with Japanese cars (even though it was back in the early 70's.)

The other thing to consider about any car is it's 'Availability'. Is it available for use when you want it?

Because of the reliability issues, Mercedes also have much lower 'availability' than their Japanese competitors. They are in the shop more often because of the reliability issues. While it's there, you don't have the use of your car, though you may get a 'loaner'. You are still out the time to take it there and go fetch it (unless your MB dealer does service pick up and delivery - some do.)

If you find a specific E, make sure you check the Consumer Reports for that particular year and model. The E usually gets an 'average' reliability rating from them and sometimes lower.

From a family perspective, my niece is driving my sister's old 1995 Acura Legend. It has 185,000 miles, looks, and drives wonderfully. The interior is in top notch condition. My mother-in-law has a 2000 Lexus ES300 coming up on 85K. Zero problems, no out of book service.

tmorales · November 2003

I own a '97 E420 which I have had since new. After a very few amount of electrical bugs when the car was new, it has been extremely reliable, requiring only fluid and filter changes until it hit the 95K mark. At this point a couple of well known issues affected the car. One was a rear window regulator and the other was failure of the camshaft oil tubes. After replacing these items, the car has once again run flawlessly. I am now approaching 102K miles and am considering selling it to get a new E class or a new BMW 530i. Here is a link to info of my E420 for sale:

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php3?s=&thre- adid=71723

The reason a Mercedes is such a great car is not necessarily because of reliability, but I do believe they are durable and should last well into the 200K mile mark with good maintenance. In addition, A Mercedes with 100K miles will run as well as many cars with 20K miles. My car runs as smoothly and quietly now as it did when new.

There is a great independant Mercedes mechanic in the north Duluth are called MBAutowerks. I have had my car seviced there for the last two years. They are cheaper than the dealer and their work is arguably of better quality.

If you decide to purchase a Mercedes I would highly recommend them for service. This would make purchasing a car with an extended warranty unnecessary. Keep in mind you will pay 2-3K more for a Starmark car than for one sold by an independant party.

Good luck.

microrepair · November 2003

Reliabilitya nd durability asre somewhat related but from my perspective there is a difference in understanding the two words. To me, a car is unreliable if I never know whether it will start and then get me to my destination. A car is durable if it will last for many many years and still look and behave like it did when it was younger.

My 96 E320 has 127,000 miles and it rides and drives like it had only 27,000 miles on it. I've never owned any other car beyond 104,000 because they would become noisy and the ride and handling, even with replacement shocks etc., became annoying. I've done all the same things to the E that I had done to other brands, shocks, suspension bushings, tires, etc. but it did cost more on the E. And I have just had the head gasket replaced, but I've not needed alternators, water pumps, etc like most other cars I've owned at much lower mileages.

So, would I call the E320 more reliable? Well, it has never stranded me anyplace. All the problems were gradual in nature so that I had time to arrange for repairs. But it did have problems, where a Mazda I owned 10 years ago had no problems at all in 99,000 miles. Is it durable? I certainly think so since it still looks like new, inside and out and I've kept it beyond the 100K mile mark and have no immediate plans to get rid of it. I still have confidence that it is a safe, comfortable ride. Hopefully, now that I've had the head gasket, suspension, and brakes all upgraded, it will give at least 2 or 3 more years of good service.

merc1 · November 2003

"I also recently read that there are more "reported" very high mileage Toyota's around that Mercedes in the U.S. including the 1983 Toyota Corolla in California with 2.3 million miles on it.

Toyota sells a lot more cars than Mercedes so there should be more Toyotas around with high miles. This statement says nothing about Mercedes-Benz. The percentage is key here not the number of cars.

"Durability is not an issue with Japanese cars (even though it was back in the early 70's."

Wrong. Outside of Toyota and Honda, and *certain* Nissan products...that cannot be said about all "Japanese" cars. Honda in particular has had some problems lately.

M

footie · November 2003

Gosh Merc1

You are right again.

The %'s would be better since even Lexus outsells MB from a numerical point of view. I just went by what I saw on a couple of web sites.

Also, since we agree that Reliability and Durability are related, one can conclude that the expectation of current vehicles underlying 'durability' is indicated by its reliability.

That might indicate that not only are MB's not as reliable as the competition, they are no longer more durable, except for the folks that like to take them to dealers to replace what's wearing out all the time. You can't mean that it is appropriate that they are ranked with the lower Japanese companies like Suzuki and Subaru, and the cars from Korea like Kia and Hyundai.

The recent press coverage about lowering used car MB residuals and resale prices is also an indicator that the reliability and durability issues are being picked up by the market and media.

Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans

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