Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans

pickle005 · January 2004

there is some discounting on rear-wheel drive models, 3-5k i think. but none whatsoever on the 4matic, long wait list even w/ MSRP. i'm from NJ, ordered in mid aug., still haven't seen my new car yet.

shipo · January 2004

"there is some discounting on rear-wheel drive models, 3-5k i think. but none whatsoever on the 4matic, long wait list even w/ MSRP. i'm from NJ, ordered in mid aug., still haven't seen my new car yet."

Hmmm, I find myself wondering if one wouldn't be better off getting the car now, taking the discount and buying a winter wheel tire set for about $1,000. A car magazine (C&D, I think) a couple of years ago did a lot of winter driving testing and determined that a RWD car shod with winter tires was easier to drive and safer (better acceleration, braking and handling) than an otherwise identical AWD car with all-season tires. FWIW, they actually used the E-Class both in RWD and AWD as one of their test mules.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jprescott1 · January 2004

We have had a heinous winter here in Cleveland. I agree with shipo. My E500 (03') has performed well. Something has changed in the tech of the w211. My 2000 S430 and my wifes 2000 E320 wagon were very unsure in the snow. Some how my 03'E is perfect in bad snow and ice. My other frame of reference is our new 04' Volvo xc90 all wheel drive. I will not bother with 4-matic or AWD in the future unless it's part of the package(A8 etc.).

clembo · January 2004

No letter was ever sent to me, although I have seen different letters posted on other web sites. My dealer was in contact with me and handled the exchange. The major qualifying point for the exchange was that I had ordered the NAV system when I originally ordered the car. MB knew that the NAV was going to be delayed and gave everyone who ordered their cars a $500 discount on the NAV system ($2125 reg price minus $500 netted to $1625 which was paid for when the car came).

Last April, MBUSA finally contacted the dealers with the news that the cars could not be retrofitted with the NAV system. I was offered a choice of two options. First, get my $1625 back plus another $2000 for the hassle and keep my original car. Second choice was to re-order a brand new 2003 replacement car with the DVD-NAV installed. I took that choice, my dealer even threw in an additional option at no charge and I changed my color on the replacement car.

I have heard of others who did not pre-pay for the NAV but were able to prove that they were expecting a NAV system get a voucher for $3250 towards a new MB.

I hope this helps you.

shipo · January 2004

As my step-father, half-brother and step-siblings are all Prescotts, I was wondering, did any of your ancestors (pre 1940) live in and around the Mt. Pleasant area of Michigan?

Best Regards,
Shipo

habitat1 · January 2004

Pickle005,

Thanks for your response. I would likely order the 320CDI RWD even if they offer a 4-matic version. In researching older Mercedes 4-matics a bit, they tend to incur more long term maintenance and repair costs. Further, we will likely have an SUV in the household for the foreseeable future.

Clembo,

According to my research, the MSRP on the Comand/Nav system for 2004 is only $1,200. Is that a mistake, or did it come down a lot in price. That's one of the cheapest out there, considerably less than Acura's or Lexus' versions.

steve500 · January 2004

I do love my 2003 E500. I have had no quality problems. I especially like the combination of the air spring suspension, the strong V-8 engine and grip like hell tires. They make the E500 a nimble, fun to drive luxo-car. The interior is awesome and I like the exterior, especially the front end! People come up to me all the time and comment on how much they like the styling. I think nothing commands like a Mercedes!

That said, I do have 2 things that are fairly annoying. I see them as design problems. First, the brake by wire brakes are hard to get used to. After 16,000 miles, I'm still not "used" to them. They are difficult to control. As I start to press down on the peddle, it seams like nothing happens, so I press just a tiny bit harder. That little extra pressure causes the brakes to come on hard and suddenly, I'm stopping faster than I need or want to. I think Car & Driver mentioned this issue, but I don't see any posters who are upset by it. I'm wondering why not? Maybe it's more noticeable in some cars than others? I'd like to see Mercedes fix this problem. I expect that it needs s/w to be re-programmed.

I also don't like the variable speed wiper. It never senses the correct speed to wipe the windows. When it's drizzling, the wiper doesn't come on soon enough. I like the way the wipers are controlled in other cars better. Set the speed and if it's too slow, crank it up a notch. If it's too fast slow it down a notch. I think Mercedes should fix this also.

Your comments, please.

mbnut1 · January 2004

I wish I had your problems...

clembo · January 2004

I understand that the price for the NAV was lowered in 2004, I'm not sure if it is the exact same system or not. The price in 2003 was $2125, I don't know if anyone actually paid that amount due to the lack of availability until last summer.

I own an Acura MDX with a NAV system as well, I like the Acura system better, it has touch screen and voice activation. It is also easier to use although the MB version has a larger database which helps when you're travelling.

If you are thinking of buying a new E class, I would check with your dealer to get a full understanding of the NAV system before you buy, that being said, I'd get it. Also get the Logic 7 sound system, it's worth the money.

jprescott1 · January 2004

I share one major hang up with you. I also own an 03' E500. I "down sized" from a 2000 S430 because it was a bit of a boat and it was not age appropriate(I'm 40). Anyhow, I have the same problem with my car. I love it but I can't get over the bounce in the breaks. It's driving me nuts. I don't think I can get used to it. I hope there is a software cure. I have seen this mentioned on many occasions.
Other problem with wipers can be fixed. I'm positive this is a problem with your car. This is my 3rd MB with rain sensors and it is one of my favorite options. my wife's XC90 has bad sensors. I have not had them tweaked yet but I can understand your frustration. Take it in to have it fixed. It's worth the inconvenience.

barry45rpm · January 2004

I have an '04 E 500, and have had never noticed the difference in braking between this car & my traded in '02 Caddy Deville DHS. As far as my driving, none of my passengers have noticed any change in their comfort. The pedal feel is the same to me.

I find my rain sense wipers to be right on, in most cases, while a simple push of the button might have to be utilized for an interim swipe occasionally.

I do find the parktronic sensitivity to be lacking a tad. They don't look out far enough to the front or rear, so that all of the warning comes when you are almost on top of a bumper.

One other thing I'd like to see changed is when you tap the wipler stalk up or down, the turn signal blinks 3 times. Thats enough warning at higher speeds in Germany where it only takes a second to change lanes, but here in the USA they should blink 5 times because the speeds are sometimes slower due to traffic, and the lane changes takes a second or two longer.

How come there is no way to scan the radio presets from the wheel? It just goes to the next available station. Just my .02.

ncvol · January 2004

Am considering buying my first Mercedes, a 2000 E320 4Matic Wagon. Has 41k miles on it, E1, E2, multi-contoured seats. Asking price $34,900, subject to further negotiations.

My lone concern about getting a Mercedes, particularly a used one is (you know this is coming) - reliability. I've read all the JD Power and Consumer Reports studies, and know that the 2000 models had a fair amount of bugs, but it is my impression that many of them were electrical problems that I would assume could be easily resolved (at the hassle of going to get it serviced). The car I am looking at is Starmark Certified, and was curious if anyone has had experience buying one under this program. I'd like to think that they wouldn't certify one that has had a bunch of problems, and that after 40,000 miles under warranty, all the manufacturing bugs would have been worked out by now.

I realize that MB's need rigorously regular maintenance, and I'm prepared for that, but I am worried about lots of unscheduled problems. Can anyone comment on their experiences buying used, particularly from the Starmark program? I fully understand that each car is different, you can get a Lexus that is a lemon and a VW that never has any problem, etc, etc, but would like to use this thread as a sounding board for my decision. I truly appreciate any replies.

barry45rpm · January 2004

...which is the previous generation body shape, and has never had a problem at all. I think most of the problems cropped up with the redesign in '03. But a used car is a used car.... do your homework, look into an extended warranty. Labor prices are dear on these things.

I hope I stay happy with mine because while you can get the same luxury in other vehicles, nothing else is a Benz. They have that "something else"... Perhaps it just takes 100 years to develop it...I dunno.

shipo · January 2004

"I hope I stay happy with mine because while you can get the same luxury in other vehicles, nothing else is a Benz. They have that "something else"... Perhaps it just takes 100 years to develop it...I dunno."

Yeah, in the case of my 5-Series it's called a Manual Transmission; couldn't get it on an E-Class here in the States (although when I worked for MB-USA, I got to drive an E430 5-Speed over in Stuttgart). Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

steve500 · January 2004

Thanks for your comments.

I want to get used to the feel of the brakes, but since I haven't during the last year, I don't think I will. The dealer told me that they are all the same, but based on barry45rpm's experience, it sounds like that's not true. I'm going to test drive another car and see how it's brakes feel. The dealer also told me that someone from MB would contact me to discuss this issue because I wrote it up on the satisfaction questionaire. I haven't heard from MB yet. I'll be more aggressive now that I'm a little smarter.

When I complained about the rain sense wipes, under the warranty, the dealer changed the wiper blades and said the sensor was working correctly. I find that every 5 or 10 or 15 seconds I need to hit the button to clear the windshield. So I'll go back and ask them to replace the sensor.

ncvol · January 2004

Barry

Thanks for the reply. I've researched cars to death, and while there are statistically speaking some problems out there with the E320, it does have that "something else" that makes it worth it, IMO. Hopefully owning one won't change that opinion.

It's actually kind of difficult to get a straight answer out of Consumer Reports on the 2000 models for reliability history. Do a used car report for the E-Class on their website, and it will give you two separate reports. One says the 2000 MY is "above average" for reliability. The other says it's "below average." The print version of the 2004 car guide says it's "average."

Who knows? I figure if I get the extended Starmark Warranty (beyond the one year certification), that should cover most of my worries.

mbnut1 · January 2004

2000 E320 4Matic Wagon. Has 41k miles on it, E1, E2, multi-contoured seats. Asking price $34,900, subject to further negotiations.

Sounds like too much to me.

ncvol · January 2004

I've been pricing these for about a year now, and that's really about as good as it gets for an asking price from a dealer on a Starmark vehicle. At least, within a 300 mile radius of Raleigh, NC. I'm sure I could find a cheaper price from an private seller, but I'm more concerned about getting the Starmark extended protection.

Not to say I won't try to shave a grand or two off that price . . .

ncvol · January 2004

FWIW, I did an Edmunds TMV on it, and the retail price they came up with was $37,438 (which certainly hurts my bargaining position).

rowlandj · January 2004

I just checked trade of my 2000 E320 vs. the numbers here and there is a big spread at this time between what's being shown here and what the real world is quoting. I would take that TMV with a very large grain of salt at this time. Check on other sites as well and you may see what I mean in that the numbers are all over the place. The spreads are in the $4,000 range depending on where you look.

Go for your price and be willing to walk if the deal does not make sense.

JR

carisart · January 2004

Steve500,

I was annoyed by the brake feedback when test driving an 03 E500. However, my 04 E500 4Matic's brake feedback is perfect and performed well in emergency situation.

microrepair · January 2004

ncvol:

For what it's worth, I bought a 96 E320 with Starmark and ended up with 3 years of coverage up to 100K miles. I ran out of time before hitting the 100K mark so you may want to explore buying an additional year or two of coverage from your dealer after figuring out how many miles per year you are likely to put on it.
I'm in the market for another one right now and have decided that if I get another E I will probably trade it right after it hits 100K. My 96 was great until it hit 114K miles and then for 8 months it seemed like something went wrong every 6-8 weeks and I ended up spending well over 3K in repairs during that 8 months. Since then I've gotten another 8K miles of trouble free driving, now at 133K. To be fair, some of that was normal maintenance such as shock absorbers and brake rotors.
There were two repairs under warranty that would have cost me almost $1200 so the Starmark was worth it.
Re: price for that 2000 wagon; in Eastern MA, sedans are going for $30-32K for cars with approx. 40K miles and wagons are 3-4K higher. So that price is in line with the market up here.
Good luck !!

mbnut1 · January 2004

Friend at work just bought an immaculate 2000 E430 4matic with 65K for 26K

kevinc5 · January 2004

Any reason to go to a dealer rather than an independant windshield shop?
Thanks

habitat1 · January 2004

I agree w/ mbnut, $34,900 sounds like too much for a 2000 E320 4-matic Wagon w/ 41k miles. Perhaps my perspective is tainted because in June of 2001, I could have purchased a brand new 2001 E320 4-matic Wagon for $2,500 under invoice when Mercedes was offering factory to dealer incentives. As I recall, that worked out to about $46,000 on the one I had priced out - including the hard to find multi-contour seats which I really like.

So $34,900 for a 4 year old car w/ 41k miles just seems very steep to me. I suggest you expand your shopping area to include Washington DC - there are a lot of very nice cars that get traded in or sold privately by the diplomatic group. Example, my BMW dealer is selling a 2002 E55 w/ 21k miles in mint condition for $43k. I have seen 2000 E320 Wagons for around $25,000 and a two year old 2002 E320 4-matic w/35k miles for $33,500 right before New Years. We decided to pass because the 4-matic Wagon doesn't quite have the SUV snow handling capability we need, with extended family in Pennsylvanina and Maine. But it was tempting.

For what it's worth, even 2000 S430's and S500's are available for under $40,000 in the DC area.

profvh · January 2004

The new March issue of Kiplinger's Personal Finance has an article on auto safety. They
awarded 5 vehicles in different categories with
their Gold Standard Award. They are Mercedes
E Class sedan, Volkswagen Passat, Ford Freestar
minivan, Mini Cooper and The Volvo SC90SUV.

habitat1 · February 2004

Today's Washington Post:

1) 2001 E320 4-Matic Wagon, Loaded, Exc. Cond., $28,999 (VOB Nissan - 301-770-6100).

2) 2000 E320 4-Matic Wagon, Loaded - Every Option, Exc. Cond., $26,999 (VOB).

3) 2000 E320 Wagon, Flawless Porsche Trade, Loaded, $26,995 (HBL Mercedes/Porsche - 703-442-8200)

4) 2000 E320 Wagon, Black, Sunroof, CD, heated seats, exc. condition 52k miles, $25,800 (private sale).

I have seen used Mercedes at both VOB and HBL and when they claim "excellent condition" they appear to mean it. The above prices seem to suggest your price on a 2000 E320 Wagon is at least $6,000 to $9,000 high, relatively low mileage notwithstanding.

Also, for what its worth:

5) 2003 E320 Sedan 2,000 miles, as new, $42,000 obo.

mbnut1 · February 2004

Thanks for continuing to share the prices you are finding on the 2003 E Classes. I'm going try to decide between one, a 2k S-Class or a C320 this year. Any thoughts on the above choices are appreciated.

I REALLY LOVE driving a C320 but I prefer the styling and size of the new E. I haven't driven one yet and I'm afraid that the that steering is significantly lighter than the C320 which I really like.

habitat1 · February 2004

I can't comment too much on the C class as the only one I have driven in the past 2-3 years is the C32. I was actually on a list to get one back in late 2001 and got the call right after I had just decided to keep my current sedan and get an S2000. My impression of the C32 was quite favorable. However, it was just enough smaller than our current Nissan Maxima to not be able to do double duty as a family hauler for long weekend trips (2 kids). Same goes for the BMW 3-series/M3, although the C32's 4 doors help somewhat.

Like you, I tend to prefer the handling and driving dynamics of the C class and 3 series. The BMW 5-series with sport package is about as good as it gets for a mid size sedan, but BMW mucked up the redesign, IMO. In considering the new upcoming E320 CDI, I am prepared to give up a bit of smaller car driving dynamics for size, comfort and, hopefully, a car that will last a long, long time. Plus I'll have bragging rights for 30+ mpg.

The S class and 7 series don't hold their values as well as the smaller and less expensive models, so getting a used S class makes a lot of financial sense if you need the size. I have a friend who bought a new 2000 S500 when they first came out for over $90k fully loaded. To think I could pick up a 3-4 year old one with 50k miles for about $40k is tempting. But it's more car than I need and I still am more comfortable buying new, assuming I can get a good deal on the E320 CDI.

I have yet to drive the new E class, so I'll post my thoughts on that later. Please do so as well, especially any comparisons between the E and C.

footie · February 2004

I did this analysis not long ago for a friend interested in a C-class sedan. The styling is amazing. It appears to be MUCH bigger than it actually is from the outside.

Using Edmund's info, I compared the C-sedan to a Toyota Corolla and a Nissan Maxima.

Here's the highlights:

The C is the shortest of the three, has the least cargo carrying capacity, the lowest headroom, and rear leg room.

The C is 1/10th of an inch shorter than the Corolla and 15.3" shorter than the Max. The C is HEAVY, weighing almost exactly the same as the Max but over 900 lbs heavier than the Corolla.

The C is most expensive, $8K more than the Maxima, $21K more than the Corolla.

mbnut1 · February 2004

I'm aware the the C-Class is smaller than the Corolla and have driven both. My girlfriend drives a 95 Corolla with over 200K miles on it. It is a car that does the basics well. Consequently I was predisposed to being favorable to the Corolla for the reasons you mentioned. However there is absolutely no comparison in the driving. I know one of the board members here (whom I have the utmost respect for)has owned one and may disagree but the NVH of that car was inferior to my girlfriend's '95. Furthermore the driving experience between a C Class and a Corolla are worlds apart. The highway ride of the Corolla sucks. Every expansion joint is met with the rear end jumping over it. I have a 5 hour drive to my family back home. I wouldn't be able to take it. My current car is a A4 with a sport suspension that I am not even able to feel the same aforementioned expansion joints in it.

The C-Class drives flawlessly and feels like a much bigger car (the extra weight is good for something). IMHO Mercedes strikes the perfect balance between handling and ride. The only other car I have ever driven that did the same, was a 5 series with sport as Habitat mentioned. I am the biggest cheap skate and am past the ego thing and would gladly have picked the Corolla for the very reasons you mentioned if it made the grade but it doesn't. As for the Maxima, I have never driven one but torquesteerers don't do it for me either.

Cars are like stereo equipment. There is a real law of diminishing returns on improved performance and if you doesn't have the ear for the difference then it is senseless to spend the extra money. However if you become acclimated to superior performance then it becomes difficult to settle for less.

BTW my sister has a new Lexus ES300 and while I think that the interior in it is the nicest in the business and really is a nice car. I'm afraid it would literally bore me out of my mind on my ride back home.

ncvol · February 2004

Habitat

Thanks for the prices, I've been keeping an eye on the ones in the VA/DC area, but hadn't seen any priced that low. HBL's website doesn't list prices or options, and VOB didn't have either of the wagons you got from the Wash Post listed on their website at all. I guess the biggest difference is the Starmark aspect, which you can't get from a non-Mercedes dealer, that's probably worth about $2k itself. With the M-B reliability concerns, that has some real appeal for me, I like the idea of getting basically a three year/60k dealer warranty, and you just can't get that from outside the MB network.

I went and took a test drive in it Saturday, and it was in great shape, although one of the headlamp washers and surrounding plastic had gotten cracked somehow after the Starmark process while it sat on the lot. That would definitely have to be fixed. Otherwise, the car had absolutely every conceivable option that you could ever ask for (Xenons, headlamp washers, heated/multicontour seats, sunroof, premium sound with CD player, rainsensing winshield wiper). It's impossible for me to tell whether the classified ad vehicles have those (or what the mileage is). Still, those listings are very nice to have for negotiating. I'm not married to getting this car right now, but it does have all the options I want, so I'd like to make a run at it. If I can't get the right price, I'll wait for the next one to come around.

Thanks so much for all the help

mbnut1 · February 2004

Thanks for the feedback. As you say the real attraction to the S is the value but I don't need the room. It's mainly just me in the car. Sometimes my son or girlfriend, very rarely 4 people. I do like the idea of the E320 CDI. It's a car I could imagine buying and keeping forever. I will give you my feedback after I drive an E. BTW what did you think of the C32's ride? Was is harsh at all?

ncvol · February 2004

Habitat

Thanks for the prices, I've been keeping an eye on the ones in the VA/DC area, but hadn't seen any priced that low. HBL's website doesn't list prices or options, and VOB didn't have either of the wagons you got from the Wash Post listed on their website at all. I guess the biggest difference is the Starmark aspect, which you can't get from a non-Mercedes dealer, that's probably worth about $2k itself. With the M-B reliability concerns, that has some real appeal for me, I like the idea of getting basically a three year/60k dealer warranty, and you just can't get that from outside the MB network.

I went and took a test drive in it Saturday, and it was in great shape, although one of the headlamp washers and surrounding plastic had gotten cracked somehow after the Starmark process while it sat on the lot. That would definitely have to be fixed. Otherwise, the car had absolutely every conceivable option that you could ever ask for (Xenons, headlamp washers, heated/multicontour seats, sunroof, premium sound with CD player, rainsensing winshield wiper). It's impossible for me to tell whether the classified ad vehicles have those (or what the mileage is). Still, those listings are very nice to have for negotiating. I'm not married to getting this car right now, but it does have all the options I want, so I'd like to make a run at it. If I can't get the right price, I'll wait for the next one to come around.

Thanks so much for all the help, if you can find a link to those listings, I'd love to print it out. The Wash Post website's classified section just uses Cars.com, and it didn't turn up any of those listings. I'd love to take those in with me to negotiate with.

ncvol · February 2004

Edmunds lists the expected maintenance costs for a 2000 MY wagon to be anywhere from $1000-2000 a year over the next five years. Does that sound right? It seems on the high side, but I'd like to know if that's really what to expect. If that's what it will really cost for maintenance, which won't even be covered by the Starmark warranty, then I may need to rethink all this. Even my problem prone Explorer in its worst year (from about 130,000 to 155,000 miles) only cost me around $2k in repairs and maintenance combined, and I thought that was high.

tomjava · February 2004

Just go to MB dealer. Never go to independent dealers, they use third party windshield.

habitat1 · February 2004

Mercedes routine dealership service after the car is past the 4 year 50,000 mile free maintenace becomes fairly expensive. Add to that any significant repairs, like transmission, ABS system, etc. and I think $7,500 for 5 years worth (midpoint of your range) would be a bargain.

Now you can see why I think you should be shopping harder for a better purchase deal. Buying a 4 year old 41k E320 Wagon for $34,900 when the vehicle only cost $46k-$49k new means your giving up the best and cheapest 4 years of ownership and paying a damn high price for a Mercedes hood ornament. At least if you got it for $26k, you'd have a little war chest for those future maintenance and repair bills.

I do think you need to rethink the deal.

ncvol · February 2004

The deal is not done yet, we haven't even talked numbers yet, but I really don't think there is anyway on God's Green Earth that I'll get their price down to $26k. I got the record of all the reconditioning they did for the Starmark process, and it was extensive. Replaced all brakes and rotors, all four tires, power window switches, belt tensioner, spark plugs, fuel filter, crankshaft pulley, several pieces of wood trim, flushed brake system and replaced brake fluid.

I spent a couple hours trying to find some deals on similar vehicles (4matic, MY 2000 or 2001 w/under 50k miles) that I could print out to bring with me, and couldn't find anything approaching the listings you quoted from the Washington Post. The best I could find was a private seller somewhere 600 miles away at $30,500 for a 2000 with 32k miles. Maybe those listings from the Post had mileage of 60 or 75k to explain the low price, typically that's the "catch" when mileage isn't listed. And they certainly weren't Starmarked. I'm going to run by a book store tomorrow and try to see if they have the Sunday Post so I can find those listings, but I don't think I can find any deals in those price ranges on the web. If you find any, slide some links my way.

Of course, if I buy, I'm going to get the extended warranty that gives 3 yrs or up to 100k miles, so that should cover me for any big repairs like transmission. I've got an independent mechanic here in town that I trust to do the scheduled maintenance and who won't cost as much as the dealership.

mark156 · February 2004

Barry, you mentioned a few posts back that you didn't like the way the steering wheel radio control would not scan. I have a 2000 E430 sport with the steering wheel controls and noticed the same problem.

If you go into the computer, the part where you can change things like the temp reading from celius to fahrenheit, you can also change the steering wheel selection to change from memory stations to "scan" stations.

Give it a try. Mark156

sxrxrnr1 · February 2004

We have a 560 SEC that we purchased new and are now looking at S class and E class Benz's as a replacement as the 560 now has 160,000 miles. I will say it has been a rather uneventful 160,000 miles with no problems except for a couple of climate control modules and 2 air conditioning compressors and fixing the normal Mercedes engine and other sundry oil leaks(Why can they not figure this out like the Japanese have is beyond me).

What distresses me most about the new Mercedes models verses our 560 is the general lowering of quality of the interior components and fabrics, and the horrible exterior finish. Take a look at a darker color such as black or blue and the orange peel in the paint would make the Rockies blush in shame.

We also have a new black Jaguar and a Silver Lexus and the differences in paint between these autos and Mercedes it night and day.

Either Lexus and Jag have learned to apply paint properly(or heaven forbid they may actually color sand their finishes as in the old days) and Mercedes has not(and assume that most buyers will not notice or they are using different paint products.

I have seen paint from Miracle that has more depth in the finish then I see on the Benz's. The lighter colors are as poor but does not show as badly. I asked my dealer about this and he says that looks ok to him until we set my Jag next to a black S class and he said I see what you mean.

If I do buy it will be off to the detail shop for a good sanding with 1000 to 3000 grit and then a good buffing and polish and the finish will be up to the quality of our 18 year old SEC when it was new(and still looks beautiful in Pearl Black).

I sent an email to Mercedes requesting information on this topic and never received a response but I assume that if I did, it would be something along the line that orange peel paint is better as it withstands the elements better or some such BS. I suppose that I will somehow void my warranty if I do color sand the finish but I could not come out daily and look at the finish and not be somewhat distressed.

Wonder why Car and Driver, Motor Trend or Road and Track ever note this stuff in their reviews.

habitat1 · February 2004

In my previous post I included the phone numbers for VOB and HBL. Why don't you give them a call and have them e-mail or fax you info?

You may be right about the mileage, but I'm not sure that there is a huge difference between a 4 year old car with 41k miles and a 2-3 year old one with 50k+ miles. In our case, my 9 year old Maxima with 150k miles has less "wear and tear" than our 8 year old Isuzu Trooper with 70k miles. The former is mostly highway miles, the latter is mostly Mom & kids short hops.

As for the price, it probably is unrealistic to get the dealer to drop it significantly if they honestly think someone will pay near the asking price. It's just that I wouldn't be that someone. I haven't priced a new E320 Wagon, but I would assume it would be in the $52-55k +/- range after a bit of negotiation. While that extra $17-20k is certainly significant, I think I would either go in that direction or wait until I found a used one at a better deal. For a 4 year old car, I would be looking for at least a 45-50% discount from the current new car price (which is less of a discount from what the original owner paid 4 years previous).

A 2 year old E55 with 21k miles for $43.9k is approximately $30k less than the car sold for new and, IMO a pretty good deal. A 4 year old 41k miles E320 Wagon for only $13k+/- less than the car sold for new is not compelling enough for me.

P.S. Why 4-matic? We looked into it and although it helps in inclement weather, it still doesn't turn the Wagon into an SUV as this winter has proven in DC. Also, gas mileage suffers and long term meintenance and repairs are likely to be more expensive. One more set of highly expensive drivetrain parts to worry about long term. We have pretty much ruled out 4-matic for an E320 CDI, even if it is offered, since we will still have an SUV in the family.

ncvol · February 2004

I may just give HBL or VOB a call to see what they have. I did some more searching, and found a couple of lower asking prices to take in with me, but only one below $30k. I guess it's the classic struggle of the private seller vs. dealership certified. The former is a lot cheaper up front, but doesn't offer you as much protection down the road, while the latter takes a bigger bite initially but you are paying for a fair amount of security. For a Starmarked wagon, this is one of the best asking prices I've seen for what they are offering (not that I'm going to pay the asking price). Many others with similar age, mileage and features are in the upper $30k range. With all of the options on this vehicle, it probably went for around $55k new. If I can get it for around $32,500, that'd would be about a 41% discount off the original price. I could probably save another 2-3k off that by going to D.C. to HBL or VOB, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of going up there, and coming away with a model that has not just had about $4k put into reconditioning it by the dealer, and won't get a 1 year warranty for my trouble either. The alternative is to get all that from a dealer 5 miles from my house, and pay the extra $2-3k.

As far as the new E-class wagons, I'll pass on them. The new generation of E-Class seems to have a whole host of problems, and they cut the cargo space in half, to the point where the C-Class actually has more room now in the back. Plus I can't get anywhere near that price tag even if I wanted to. I like the styling of the previous generation better anyway, it was the last of the "Classic" looking Mercedes, IMO.

As for 4matic, I think that an all wheel drive system fits the weather here in NC the best. We don't get the levels of snow where ground clearance becomes an issue, but we get a lot of crappy weather in the form of rain, sleet, and 2-3 inches of snow at a time (the dreaded "wintry mix"). My wife has a Honda Accord, and so I'd like for us to have one vehicle that is capable in foul weather (but not a no-fun-to-drive-SUV). I just don't think a RWD would cut it.

Thanks for all the help, I think you've helped me sharpen my arguments for the negotiating table. I've got a number in mind that I'm comfortable paying, and if they can't get there, then I'll just walk away and wait for the next one to come around, I'm really about 6 months ahead of when I planned on buying anyway, so it won't kill me to go back to the old schedule.

habitat1 · February 2004

The "Starmarked" feature may be worth a couple of thousand as you suggest, especially if it takes your warranty up to 100k miles. If/when you call HBL, ask them if their E320 Wagon is Starmarked and if not, why. They have a reasonably good reputation here in the DC area, although I will likely buy from Euromotors if/when the time comes.

The car you are considering probably had an MSRP close to $55k, but for whatever reason, Mercedes was offering significant incentives on the 2001 E classes, such that I had priced one out with E1 (Bose, Sunroof), Multicontour, E2? (Xenon, etc) and one or two other goodies, plus metallic paint for $47,800 (found my price notes in my palm pilot). The non 4-matic was about $2k less. Unfortunately, there hasn't been that kind of discounting since, to the best of my knowledge.

Good luck whatever you decide to do and, in the event you get something in the DC are, post in advance and I'll buy you a beer.

travelbill · February 2004

FWIW I just closed on a 2001 4matic wagon with 40,000 miles for $29,000. check out the National Auto Auction Assn site for an auto auction near you and look for their high line sales listings. If you see something interesting find a local used car dealer and tell him you want to do a locator deal and that you have found some prospective cars at an upcoming auction. give him a price you are willing to pay and some more specifics on what options, colors, etc you want. They love to find a buyer just before an auction because they don't have to keep cash tied up in inventory sitting on their lot and are thus willing to shave their profit margin for a quick turnover.

ncvol · February 2004

I had actually thought about doing that at one point. The trade you make there is that you don't know what you are getting from the auction, and don't have any guarantees as to quality (or maybe you do and I just don't know it). My father knows some used car dealers where he lives and I might do it if I can't get the right price on this one at the dealer. The other advantage (maybe) of going through the dealer right now is that I want to see what he'll give me for my trade in, and he might be more inclined to pump it up some to make the sale as opposed to a place like CarMax (where I had it appraised the other night for a depressingly low amount) who would just be buying an old car.

Thanks for the tip, but do you mind telling me how to find the listings of vehicles on the website? I went to the NAAA.com site and couldn't find them.

hotdhs · February 2004

This is my first posting so if this issue has been mentioned, I apologize. As a new owner of E-320 I keep using the cruise control lever as turning signal level. there were few times I was startled by sudden burst of speed when I wanted to slow down and turn. This is my first MBZ. May be others are having the same problem? My other car is the new Chevy SSR-- I'd rather talk about that TRUCK in an other forum.

carnaught · February 2004

Exactly. I've had the same problem with this issue on my present and past Mercedes. This, IMHO, is definitely a ergonomic design flaw.

sunny48 · February 2004

Yesterday my dealer told me that I should not. But I am not sure I believe his reasoning as he is hoping to sell or lease me something else. It had been a dealer demo and I leased it at a good price with 9,000 miles on it 4 years ago.
He said I was being offered it at too high a price by the lease company, that it was worth much less than I would be paying if I bought it.
My lessors price to me -
$25, 000 for a 1999 E 320 4matic, clean with 75000 miles. He pulled out a small book in which he claimed it said the car was only worth $18,000 with my milage and that if sent to an auction would only fetch $15,000. ( I'd sure buy it at that! It would be worth it even if the doors fell off)
Does anybody know about values and pricing?
Am I wrong to be suspicious? On the other hand, should I make a lower offer to my lessor to take this 75,000 mile "dog "off its hands? Anybody tried that?
Edmunds priced it at $22, 290 if it were a trade in, $25,000 if a private sale and $27,500 at a dealer and $29,500 if starmarked.
It has always run well, except for that mysterious ticking others mention in this forum that the dealer has never been able to get rid of.

rowlandj · February 2004

I would suggest that the values on Edmunds at this point on the E's is off by an order of a few thousand dollars. Based on my recent experience with my 2000 E320 they were about $4,000 over what the 'real world' was offering.

I simply kept the car as I was looking at a trade but the point is they are high at this time. Sounds like buying yours from the lease company for a few thousand over auction would be the way to go as it seems like you are happy with the vehicle.

Good Luck,

JR

sunny48 · February 2004

Thank you for your advice. I am going to try to make them an offer for my '99 and see what happens. Buying it would give me time to look around more and my daughter could use it when I get something else. She's in college and loves to drive the car when she's home- she gets lots of whistles.

What goes wrong with older e 320's? What falls apart and breaks down, now that its off warrenty and I might own it?

I have been hesitating to get a 2003 or a 2004 because of all the problems I have been reading about in these messages that people have been having with them. I did not have anything like them with my C -class or with my current E. Are the new ones really that problematic?

Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans

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