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Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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Comments

  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Don't be mad at Honda. They work like clockwork when it comes to model freshenings. They may make minor trim changes but the mid-cycle refresh comes after the third year of production.
  • elevatorguyelevatorguy Member Posts: 87
    Guys,
    I am replacing the muffler assembly on a 99 Civic EX with the V-TECH engine. When taking the muffler off, I tried unbolting the hardware from the muffler side of the flange (where the small coil springs are on the special bolts). Well, both of the "bolts" broke off just where the threading starts on the. Yes, the muffler is off, but the remainder of the hardware is still in the nuts that are on the flange coming from the resonator. My question is this. Are the nuts on the resonator side of the flange welded on to the flange itself or are there supposed to come off? I got onto them pretty well with a 15mm wrench and they didn't want to budge. If these are welded onto the flange, how do I go about removing the rest of the bolt? There is about 3/4" of the bolt sticking out the back of the nut and I tried, with no luck, to spin them out with a pair of vise-grips. Any help will be graetly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance,
    Todd
  • gduffygduffy Member Posts: 5
    Just noticed info about the 2004 Civic is posted
    on Honda's US website
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    The headlights are so Camryish!
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    One word sums up the Civic update: forgettable
  • keithn55keithn55 Member Posts: 3
    Check this website for your car's exhaust system diagram:

    http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com

    I replaced the exhaust pipe and muffler on my 88 Civic over two years ago. If I remember correctly, the nuts are part of the long exhaust pipe (even though the dealer charged me for the nuts separately).
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I happen to like the pictures of the 04 Civic. Those wheels sure are pretty. Much nicer than the 01-03's IMHO. I will reserve final judgement until after I see one in person though.
  • crv16crv16 Member Posts: 205
    I'm going car shopping this weekend for another car. I was wondering if the VTEC engine in the Civic has a noticable "surge" as the VTEC kicks in. On my '01 Accord EX 5spd, if accelerating hard, you feel a noticable surge right at 3500 rpm -- that's where it changes cam profiles. I know the new Accord has iVtec, which is supposed to have a smooth transition in cam changes.

    It's one of the annoying aspects of my Accord, because I frequently shift around 3500-4000 rpm, and you get that little surge which makes smooth driving difficult.

    Just looking for impressions from current Civic EX owners....

    Thanks!
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    my '99 Si was Vtec and had 'the surge' and my '02 Si is iVtec and does not have 'the surge'.
  • stragerstrager Member Posts: 308
    I'm talking only about the styling, not the driving dynamics, and I felt even more so when the car was introduced in 2000.

    In Japan since 2000 the Corolla has outsold the Civic probably by a margin of 8 to 1, and in the US it looks like the Corolla/Matrix will replace the Civic/Coupe as the best selling compact car this year.

    I used to be a big Honda fan, still own a Honda, but over the last few years it's become clear that Honda is more interested in catering to an older customer. Every redesigned vehicle has the same formula: slightly longer, wider, roomier, more powerful engine, less emissions, boring styling, boring colors, and for the Civic the same old boring 4 door and coupe body styles.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Regardless of who sells more cars this year the Corolla has a rear axle. Nice enough car but that's a major downfall in my opinion.

    You may not like the looks of the Civic, as you don't like the Accord, but as I stated before the Civic is aging quite well. It's into it's 4th model year already and it still looks fresh compared to other cars introduced after it.
  • dudkadudka Member Posts: 451
    Toyota is a much bigger company to begin with. As a matter of fact Toyota's average buyer's age is somewhere in the mid 40's and Honda's in the mid 30's. This is the primary reason for Toyota creating Scion brand -- to attract younger buyer. You would rarely see a 16-21 year old driving in a 4 door corolla, but the same population eagerly takes on a Civic coupe. Matrix as much as a fun car it is, missed its target. It is mostly driven by mid 30's and up. Just like Honda missed their target with the Element.

    The Si is going to be my last Honda. As much as I love driving it, the quality is not there. I can get the same driving dinamics from a VW and same frequency of dealership visits. I called Honda and asked for 7 year/100,000 miles extended warranty since they did not live up to my previous experience with Honda, they refused. I have an appointment with Honda in two weeks to fix the leaky trunk for the third time on top of other things failing. If that does not work, I have legitimate lemon case against Honda. I was trying to be nice and keep the car, provided they offered extended bumper to bumper warranty, but they did not want to do that -- Lawyer time
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    anonymousposts, styling of the 7th gen Civic is hardly "fresh". The coupe really hasn't changed its overall shape since 1993 (5th gen). The sedan has few modern features that, for instance, the Corolla has, such as bar style door handles and a taller hood and roof profile. At least Honda is now throwing away the LX's 14" wheels, something it should have done 5 years ago. It's clear that Honda, now wants to design a small car that's all things to all people. A car that has become dull, flabby and unremarkable. I remember reading about the 5th gen. Civic in auto mags, and it would always be the one to beat. Now it is mediocre at best. The 04 update further proves, that Honda only wants to attract those drivers who consider driving a way of getting from point a to point b.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Mediocre at best? That's your opinion. But it is hardly dull, flabby, and unremarkable. I will trade a bit of height and bar style door handles for a fully independent suspension and a seat that my 6'6 fiance can actually sit in.

    And so what if the current coupe resembles the 1993 Civic. The 93 Civic coupe was, and still is, one of the best looking cars on the road. Look at it compared to a 93 Corolla, Protege, Cavalier, or Sentra.
  • jvkalrajvkalra Member Posts: 98
    I have to agree with mdriver. Honda wants the Civic to be a high volume car that will provide reliable transportation to the masses.

    The difference a few years ago was that the Civic not only provided reliability but was easily the most stylish among its competition. Even Honda now admits that the current Civic has a significantly higher age of customer than previous generations.
  • theflowtheflow Member Posts: 98
    I find it hard to believe a 6'6" can fit into a civic. I'm 5'11" and my head is touching the roof all the time. Even my coworker who is 6'2" says he cannot fit into a corolla. A 6'6" can fit into a civic? That must be kidding. Or that person must have his/her body leaning toward the middle of the car and drive like one of those rocket-racers or have his/her head sticking out of the sunroof.

    Regarding the civic, seriously, can Honda add some excitement to the design. Like a previous poster said, it's based on the same formula: bigger, a bit more power, little changes to the head & tail lights......

    For the 2004 model, I also wonder if they copy the headlight design from Mazda 6, Protege and the Camry.

    Just test drove a Vibe base model, with same engine and suspension as the corolla. Not expecting any power and speed from the little engine. Although I hate my civic, I actually think the civic engine is better, more quiet and smoother. But the ride of the Vibe is WAY better and smoother than my 2001 civic even the Vibe/Corolla has a rear axle. I really wonder how many people care if it's a rear axle or independent suspension when they go buy a car. I think most of them won't even notice any differences.
  • osum02osum02 Member Posts: 29
    With all due respect Dudka, if you think you're gonna get any better reliability from a VW Golf or Jetta (equivalent to your Civic SI), then your kidding yourself, because VW has major reliability issues up the yingyang. VW products are some of the least dependable/reliable products on the market today. I read of numerous late model Jetta engines failing. I will say that the Jetta has a very nice, high quality interior, but I'd never buy one. I'm sorry you got a Civic SI that is problematic, as the VAST MAJORITY (probably 95-99%) of Civic's are extremely reliable and Honda makes one of the best 4 cylinder engines I've ever seen. They're extremely smooth, even at high rpm. I think everything else will fail on a Honda way before the engine ever will.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    BUT...I still think that the Corolla is overall, a better sedan.

    Yes, the Corolla has a beam suspension, but the Civic has been critized since it was redesigned for its front suspension setup and harsh ride as well. Espeically the 2001 and 2002 models.

    The interior of the Corolla is also more refined than the Civic (Which has looked the same for years, with its single din radio)

    I also think the Corolla has a better engine.

    But the Civic is a close second, especially the updated 2004 Civic EX.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Yes my 6'6 fiance can fit in a Civic. Not as comfortably as he does in his LS400 or GS300 but we have owned a 89, 93, 96, 98, two 2000's, and a 2002 and he has fit fine in all of them. Tried sitting in a 2003 Corolla and he couldn't even get his foot to the gas pedal. Same for the Matrix.

    As for the interiors, the Corolla has a nice design but the materials are no better than the Civic. Sat in a 03 Civic coupe Thursday and was impressed with the interior fabrics and nice looking gauges. As for the Civic looking the same inside for a while you can same the same thing about BMW's, Porsche, Mercedes, etc. Why fix what isn't broken. I know that any time I get in a Civic it's an instant home.

    The 2004 headlights are more 1998-2002 Accord than anything.

    http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/road- tests/comparison/2000/family_car/honda/00.honda.accord.f34.jpg

    Looks very 04 Civic-ish right down to the wheels.
  • theflowtheflow Member Posts: 98
    Couldn't fit into a Matrix, which has more room, but a Civic??? That's another joke of the day.

    2004 civic doesn't look like a 1998-2002 Accord. It's a Mazda 6 that they copied the design from.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/mazda/6/100195194/photogallery.ht- ml?pg_type=Sedan&imgsrc=%2Fpictures%2FVEHICLE%2F2003%2FMazda%- 2F100195194%2F006951-T.jpg

    Not even the headlight, they even copied the design of the front hood for crying out loud........
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Personally I like the old nose better than the new one. When I saw the new one, my first thought was that it did not look like it meshed well with the styling of the rest of the car; it looked too rounded for the rest of the car. It also screamed at me, "generic Japanese small-car styling!" That might be considered a good thing by Honda, however, as it is likely to be inoffensive to anyone.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Well if the Civic copied it's front end design from the 6 then the 6 copied it's front end design from the 98-02 Accord because the new Civic headlights scream Accord.

    Just looking at legroom numbers won't tell you the whole story. The design of the dash, steering wheel, seats, and pedals all come into play. Now don't get me wrong, the Civic isn't the most comfortable car on the planet for him, but it's a very driveable car for him. He has had problems with MT Mustangs, the Corolla, the S2000, the WRX, even a pre-2000 Land Cruiser. Those are just the ones that immediately come to mind. But he did fit fine in a Toyota MR2, 89 Civic wagon, 87 Toyota Corolla, and yes the assorted Civics/Integras we have owned.

    We saw a 2004 Civic Hybrid tonight while purchasing our new car. IMHO the car definitely has class. Besides, it's better to look "generic" in the opinion of some people who probably have no intention of buying a new Civic anyways than to actually BE generic ala the Cavalier, Sentra, Elantra, etc.
  • theflowtheflow Member Posts: 98
    My bad. Did some research and figured out Honda already have that hood design in 2000 civic. Sorry Honda. But still don't understand why Honda refresh the headlight but not the tail light. Like what Backy said, it doesn't mesh well with the rest of the car.

    "...new Civic headlights scream Accord"
    well, that's just your opinion.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Yeah opinions are like Hondas, everybody seems to have one.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    For the 2003 Models. Many people though the refresh came in 2003, when the Civic EX Coupe got alloys and the other Civics got new wheel covers. The taillights also changed for 2003. On the Sedan at least.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Besides, it's better to look "generic" in the opinion of some people who probably have no intention of buying a new Civic anyways than to actually BE generic ala the Cavalier, Sentra, Elantra, etc.

    I thought this board was for all people interested in Civics, not just current owners. FWIW, I've owned two Civics, almost bought a '01 EX 4-door three years ago (but couldn't justify the price vs. my other choice), and almost leased a '03 EX coupe last winter (until I found out the dealer's lease offer wasn't quite as good as ads would lead me to believe). I continue to keep up with it because it's one of the best small cars out there.

    As for generic styling, the Sentra is right up there with the Civic for winning the Generic Japanese Car Styling award, except I noticed today that the '04 Sentras have a Maxima-esque front end that is way more interesting than the Civic's. The Cavalier 4-door is pretty generic (also OLD) but I've always thought the 2-door was good looking for a low-end car. As for the Elantra, have you seen the '04 model? Anyway, I'll take the Elantra's styling any day over the Civic's. It's at least an attempt at some uniqueness, especially in the rear.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I am 6'3 and can't fit in the Civic EX with the sunroof, but fit fine in the LX. Too bad it didn't offer ABS, something I think should be standard on all cars.

    It depends on the seatback rake, and if the person's height is more in their legs or their torso. That seems to be a factor between myself and a friend of mine, who is the same height as I am. His legs are longer though, so he fits fine in his 94 Cougar, where my head touches the roof when I drive it.
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    Wow, the Mazda 6 and 04 Civic have a headlight that seems to be a virtual duplicate. I've never liked the Civic's tail lights which copy late 80's Mitsubishi Mirages (the lens forms part of the top surface of the trunk) an awful design then and still is today.

    I actually have to revise my earlier statement about the 04 update upon seeing a sedan today. It's actually quite an improvement, but then, anything would have been. The LX's 15' wheels and Bridgestones are a vast improvement over the skinny 14" rubber. But still no ABS on the LX. Why. Honda still wants you to buy a car under Honda's take-it-or-leave-it policy - no options. At least you can get ABS as a $300 stand alone option on the Corolla.

    As for VW reliability "VW has major reliability issues up the yingyang" as someone said, I think that's a little bit exaggerated. VW's reliability is comparable to the domestics, which is pretty good today, but not quite as good as Honda, true. Actually, the best 4cyl engine is often cited as VW's 1.8T. Honda makes good engines, but the 1.8T is smoother and more advanced (5 valve/cyl, etc).
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    VW is an industry benchmark for what a small car could be certainly from an engineering, and fit and finish standpoint. But quality issues on Mexican-built samples and dealer service is why many people buy Civics. The latest Civic is very VW-like in many aspects.

    Where is a good link to see the '04 Civic changes? I have an '03 which I love. I could have gotten a great deal on a new '02 in November '02 when I bought mine but liked the changes to the interior (full sized rear headrests like my Corolla) and the nice jade green colour enough to pay the extra C$1200 for the newer model.

    A few posts ago people talked about generic styling. I think conservative is a better term because each of these small cars do look quite different (Sentra, Protege, Corolla, Civic, Lancer all look totally different). Frankly the unambitious styling of Japanese vehicles is what makes them endure as good used vehicle choices. I would not want to drive 1988 US-brand anything from a styling perspective but an 1988 Accord, Camry or Stanza still has nice proportions and a well designed interior. Meanwhile the US stuff, while flashy and exciting when new, aged badly. Digital dash anyone?
  • irnmdnirnmdn Member Posts: 245
    I saw a few 04 EX sedans at my dealership yesterday. Front end looks even more genric. Nice standard alloy wheels. Rest of the car is rather unremarkable, non-offending and should age very well.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Styling is a personal preference. If you don't like the Civic fine but I would much rather have a 2004 Civic in 2014 than I would a 2004 (insert other economy sedan here).

    Honda's take it or leave it policy is better and more cost-effect than having alot of stand alone option packages or misc. options. Someone who wants a Civic LX knows exactly what they are getting if he/she orders a green Civic LX automatic. Probably part of the Civic's excellent resale value.

    dunworth: You can now go to www.hondacars.com and view the 04 Civic coupe and sedan. It will even let you build your own with accessories.
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    Ahhh, "accessories" as opposed to options. Accessories are the things that you can "snap on" after the car is built at whatever the dealer can get you to pay. Unfortunately, a $300 safety device (ABS) isn't one of them for the LX. I don't call that good marketing, I call it lack of choice (the Honda-way). Obviously, Honda must know that LX buyers don't care about ABS. That kind of buy-it-my-way philosophy was once practiced by GM who thought it could do no wrong.
    I can understand not having, say, a sunroof avaialable on the LX, but no ABS on a 2004 model even as an option? Shame.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I have owned several cars with ABS and can count on one hand the number of times my ABS has activated. Even if Honda offered ABS as a stand-alone option how many people would actually pay extra for it? Again, if you have alot of individual options you drive up production costs and drive down resale. If you HAVE to have ABS the you will buy an EX Civic or something else. The Civic has been one of the top-selling cars for a long time so obviously most people are either buying the EX or dealing with no ABS. The Civic has some of the highest crash test scores available. Unfortunately, some cars don't have this option but I bet more people would pay for it than would pay for ABS.
  • dudkadudka Member Posts: 451
    I agree if it is imperative for you to have ABS get the EX. EX has $1600 premium over the LX, but you get more than just ABS. By eliminating factory options Honda can efficiently produce cars. They offer 6 trims in Civic line and you can find one that suits you.

    Don't care for power anything nor A/c get DX.

    Want power everything and A/C but coud care less for sunroof, cruise and ABS - get LX

    Want power everything and A/C but also want better fuel economy get HX (only available as coupe)

    Wand power everything and A/C and really good fuel economy get Hybrid

    Want power everything, sunroof, cruise and ABS - get EX

    Want power everything, sunroof, cruise, ABS and peppiness get the Si. (only available as hatchback)
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Thanks for the link. I think the Civic is a very crisp design overall but I do not care for the refresh. It is not ugly by any means and as someone said before it does look like the outgoing Accord. However , the slight v shape in the grill does not suit the rest of the car - it is slightly jarring.

    I have never understood what the big deal is with ABS. I live in the Toronto area of Canada and often travel north and I have never found the need for it. In Canada, a high quality, well maintained FWD compact with a 5 speed gearbox and a careful driver is more than adequate. Ofcourse if you going into the bush or driving on ice maybe a Subaru or SUV would be a better choice.
  • chalupnychalupny Member Posts: 39
    Haven't been here in a while. I bought a 2002 Civic LX sedan a year ago. Once I made the purchase I quit checking this site. I see people are still debating styling issues. I said back when I bought the car that the competing vehicles all looked just as good or better to me (actually thought the Protoge looked the best). But I made my choice based on what I thought would be the most reliable car for me. Not trying to set off the old reliability debate. I will say this though (just a report based on real experience with a new car over a one year period)- the Civic is a grear car and I couldn't be more pleased with it. I have had the car for exactly one year. It has never been back to the dealer once. I took it to Jiffy Lube for the 5000 mile oil change. I'll be taking it back to the dealer for the 10,000 mile oil change in a few weeks. Not only has it never been back to the dealer - there has not been one thing go wrong with it. This is the first time I've bought a brand new car that had nothing wrong with it. I've been pretty lucky when it comes to cars, but any car I've purchased always had some minor problem that needed to be fixed during the first few months I had it. I thought the Civic had a problem a few times - but both turned out to be normal. Once the light indicating that the side airbag was off came on - but I realized that the sensors in the seat determined that my young son had shifted his weight in the seat and had temporarily shut off the side airbag. Not long ago I noticed that the maintenance required light was blinking longer than normal when I started to car - but that turned out to be normal also. It goes from blinking for a few seconds to 8 or 10 seconds once the odometer registers 8000 miles - it'll reset at the 10,000 mile service. Great car. Has never failed to start on the first turn of the key. Love the gas mileage.
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Good to hear you are enjoying your car. My '03 is now 10 months old and 16,000 km/10000 miles with no worries. I did have a dash rattle which took three times to correct but this is not my first new car and that sort of thing is hard to find. Anyway the dealer corrected it and the car is great.

    Unlike you I am a firm believer in dealer service and always had my vehicles looked after where I bought the car. I usually buy locally as. Perhaps I could have saved a couple hundred here and there but dealers do look after their own sales.
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    Someone wrote: "I have never understood what the big deal is with ABS. I live in the Toronto area of Canada and often travel north and I have never found the need for it."

    I've never needed my seat belt either - but I still wear it!

    Same with airbags

    Same with laminated windshields

    and on and on...

    ABS is one of those devices you may never need, except that one time you're going to crash head on into a tree when ABS might come in "handy".

    If Honda has found such an efficient way of packaging options in their cars, why hasn't everyone else adopted it? This only helps Honda's bottom line, not the customer's choices. Honda has fooled many into believing that having just two options (LX or EX, you won't find the DX anywhere) is beneficial to the consumer. Why is having fewer choices a good thing? It's only good for Honda.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    None ABS cars are death traps? Hooey. I like the ABS on my Si, but I wouldn't have gone out of my to get it or paid extra for it. Yup, LOL, if I live long enough I'm sure to meet a situation where ABS would save my life. Likewise, if I live long enough I'm sure to meet a situation where ABS kills me.

    I LIKE Honda's "trim line" approach to marketing. It simplifies the choice process and really cuts down the room dealers have to manipulate the prices. Go shopping for a 'Yoda if you wanna see what a dealer can do with the option package game. To be fair, you can probably make the option package thing work for you if you have time to wait on a special order. Anybody compare the costs of cars optioned out to equal Civic LX, EX, Si, etc?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It simplifies the choice process and really cuts down the room dealers have to manipulate the prices.

    Gee, you could have fooled me. From my experience, Honda dealers (along with Toyota dealers) wrote the Book on "ADM". It sure didn't stop Honda dealers from "manipulating the prices" during the early years of the current-gen Odyssey--and the Ody has only two trim lines! I'm also still trying to figure out why "simplifying the choice process" is a good thing, for buyers. I always thought freedom of choice was a good thing, not lack of choice.

    Anybody compare the costs of cars optioned out to equal Civic LX, EX, Si, etc?

    Yes, I have. And then I chose not to buy a Civic. I couldn't get a Civic with the features I wanted without going to the EX model, and it was much pricier than some competitors. Comparing costs of cars optioned out to equal the LX, EX etc. is not the point. The point is, what is the cost of the car optioned the way the buyer wants it equipped? For example, if I want an engine with decent power, I need to get an EX. If I wanted (in '00) a height-adjustable seat, I needed to get an EX (LX has it now). If I wanted ABS or a moonroof, I needed to get an EX. With other cars, I could get a lower-priced trim line to get those features.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    You missed my point on price manipulation via option packages, but that's okay.

    Sure, if you choose a car line with option packages AND have the time to special order you can probably get exactly what you want and nothing more.
    (I thought I said that.)
  • dudkadudka Member Posts: 451
    I agree that Honda did the trim packages to save some dough, but it also benefits you, like river said, the dealer has fewer things to jack up prices on. I think you are confusing dealer options with factory options when you referred to the Odyssey. In the end if it costs Honda less to make the car they will sell it for less.

    ABS is not like a seat belt. ABS is there for people who can't or won't pump their brakes, but rather use the technique known as "Stomp and steer" A good driver, who is concentrated on the road rather than something else, will be able to pump brakes in an emergency situation rather than freeze in fear and stomp on the brakes hoping the car stops. It is a learnt habit. I learnt how to drive without ABS, so ABS is not an issue for me. ABS does not shorten the stop distance and may, in fact, lengthen it.

    Price comparo using carsdirect for zip 06902
    2003 Civic EX is optioness, so it is a standard: $15,252 (no rebate, only 1.9% financing)
    2003 Corolla LE+$600 for sunroof+$258 for ABS+$200 for cruise: $15,270 ($600 rebate available in lew of finance options)
    2003 Protege ES+$566 for sonroof and 6CD (the only way to add sunroof)+$402 for ABS and side air bags (the only way to add ABS): $16,776 ($2500 rebate available in lew of finance options)
    2003 Ford Focus SE Zetec+$530 for sunroof+$356 for ABS: $16,129 ($3000 rebate available in lew of finance options)

    If I am financing a car and have decent credit (Tier 1 and 2) Civic EX make smost sence. Although Si made more sence to me at the time I bought it. If you are in the market for new car and have cash to pay for it, then Ford Focus is the better option. It is available here in North east with 2.3 liter engine for the same price as 2.0
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The lack of choice makes it easier to
    "up" the customer into a higher-priced
    model to get the item they want, along with
    some they don't want. Increases dealer and
    corporate bottom line.

    As long as people believe they have to have
    the honda because of the image the customer has of durability, value, etc., rather than another brand that does offer the choices that individual wants, the marketing
    system works...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    You are a bit misinformed as far as ABS goes. There is no way you could pump your brakes and think as quickly as a computer can. Sorry, just not possible, no matter how great you think you are at driving. And it has been proven many many times that in MOST cases ABS will stop shorter than non-ABS on the same car. There are cases ABS will lengthen stopping distances and those are: ice and gravel roads. But how often do you drive on those surfaces? Look at any instrumented test and in almost every case ABS shaved 4-20 feet off the distance. And that my friend can mean the difference between totalling your car and not hitting the car at all.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I respectfully disagree about the value of ABS.

    The ABS helps the driver keep the car under control, which means steerable.
    E.g.,if the right side is onto the berm or grass or gravel, the brake effect is going to be unequal and the car will swerve. The driver pumping the brakes will not do as well. IF the car is one where the rear tends to lift and start sideways under heavy braking, the ABS will keep the rear wheels holding a straight line rather than trying to pass the front end.

    Most emergency stops I incur are where ability to steer if necessary is more important than being able to stop 10 feet shorter in 1 out of 10 cases because ideal traction occurred at all wheels and I could do better than the ABS.

    I would rather be able to steer and miss the car or the culvert or the sign support!!!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Thank you for explaining why ABS is not like seatbelts. I could not agree more. Like you said driving technique is very important and ABS would not have helped in most of the emergency situations I have been in 22 years of drving.

    However, if I ever buy another expensive compact sedan like a C-Class Benz (I had a Volvo previously), I think ABS coupled with some kind of traction and/or stability control would be a useful package. This kind of stuff on a Civic (we have to pay for the Acura EL version here in Canada) boosts the price of the car to C$30 K out the door versus low $20s K for the mid grade version of the Civic. Still a great car but getting pricey for an econobox.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Thanks for the numbers, Dudka. That's kinda how I figured it but without specifics. Lemme add that in the real world I see more dealer and distributer aftermarket option packages on the 'option pac' cars. I, too, figure the trim line approach makes for manufacturing economy; thus, Honda can sell more car for the money. I LIKE the 'trim line' approach Honda uses.

    I think you hit the nail on the head, too, about ABS. Personally, I like it as an add; but if one regularly drives such that ABS is the dif 'tween life and death then it's 'dead man driving'. The guy for whom ABS is a deal breaker just ain't safe. All that said, the Si package is great - with ABS and EBD.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You get great prices on Civics in your area! Carsdirect puts the EX 4-door 5-speed at $16,002 in my area. In comparison, I know I can get a Pro LX for around $12k (widely advertised price), and if I want ABS and moonroof I can add one or both of those and still come out thousands less than the Civic. Or get a Focus for around $13k (as your numbers demonstrated), or an Elantra GLS for about that same price per Carsdirect (add SAB cost to the Civic to be fair however). Now suppose I want ABS on my Civic, but I don't need a moonroof. Carsdirect has the Civic LX 4-door 5-speed at $14,214 in my area. As you noted, ABS is a $250-400 option on competitors. So if I could get ABS on an LX, I could save about $1500 over the cost of an EX. So, please explain to me again how Honda's packaging of options saves me dough.
  • civickiddcivickidd Member Posts: 8
    I'd still take the civic over those other cars you're considering...just take reliability and resale value into account.

    As for me, i'll always consider long term benefits a higher priority than short term benefits. I hate the relatively high(er) prices too, but if that's the cost for quality, then so be it; of course, if honda increases the price any more, i'll definitely consider my options.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Now you've done it, Civickidd. You've really done it.

    For a Honda basher, nothing bites the biscuit bigger than 'R' words - like 'R' esale, eliability, eputation.
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