Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

polymorpha · September 2003

I am thinking about buying a new civic to replace my '92 DX 4 door sedan with 123K miles. I was surprised to find that the highway mileage rating of a new sedan is only 38 mpg. My old one has averaged 39.2 mpg over the car's lifetime, which has been spent in Massachusetts. No more than a third of the 123K is highway mileage, the rest being a mix of city and country. Does anyone with a civic of recent vintage have a good idea of mileage? Thanks in advance for any posts.

micweb · September 2003

Which was more than my 93 CX.

vocus · September 2003

So you still have the Civic, or did you replace it already?

dudka · September 2003

I think BMW uses opacity sensors in the oil pan to determine when an oil change is needed. Then a light on the dash board lights up. Problem with BMW is that you don't anticipate the oil change and when the light is on you have to get your car into the dealership. Which is a problem of its own. There are waiting lists month long to get service at BMW dealership. And the frosting on the cake is that if you did not buy you bimmer from a particular dealership, they will not let you perform maintenance at their dealership. I am talking about Darien BMW in CT and Westchester BMW in NY. It may be different in other parts of the country.

mdriver · September 2003

Actually, "normal driving" is not that rare. I do it and I've checked every possibility that I don't fall into the "servere" schedule and I don't. My oil is still quite clean looking at 7500 miles. Still, how can a mechanic at a corner gas station say that 3k should be adhered to when the company who built the engine (Honda) and tested it says differently. Does anyone believe anything else the manual says who is it just the oil change interval that is suspect? What about all of the other maintenence that is suggested? See that's different becuase there is no huge industry saying change the brake fluid every 10k miles, so we are left to believe the manual.

anonymousposts · September 2003

Alot of people get above the EPA rating after a few thousand miles. Still 38MPG vs. 39.2MPG isn't that bad if you consider the 03-04 Civic's safety rating and size compared to the 1992's. And it has 20 or so more HP.

jjpcat · September 2003

mdriver, you are not the only one who follows Honda's recommendation. I have never got into any engine problems for the 5 new cars I have owned, by following the normal driving schedule. But, I didn't keep any of them past 50k miles. So I can't tell if they would get into troubles further down the road. So, I would like to hear those FIRST-HAND experience after 100k miles.

As for the engine problem reported against Toyota 3.0L V6 engines, it's because those owners didn't even change oil for 20k-30k miles. I have owned 3 cars equipted with them engine and none of them has any engine issues.

My 01 Civic LX (auto) is consistently getting 38-40mpg on the freeway (70-80mph). It would drop to 35-36mpg if I cruise at 90-95mph. When I cruised at 55-60mph, I alway got 42-43mpg.

anonymousposts · September 2003

Actually, alot of the Toyota owners had receipts showing that they had the oil changed as recommended in the owner's manual yet they still had sludge and seized engines which Toyota would not pay for. Nothing inherently wrong with the cars, they just recommended the wrong interval especially for those that drove under severe conditions.

mdriver · October 2003

If the problem with the Toyota engines developing sludge was due to a too long of an oil change interval, don't you think Honda would know this too? Why would Honda suggest a long interval if they thought even for a second that it may cause sludge or any other trouble.

The trend for longer oil change intervals will increase in the future. Oil sensors can allow some cars to go to 15k miles without a change. This is progress for the consumer and the environment, but damaging for the oil change industry. I wonder why people aren't as passionate about changing the brake fluid.

dunworth · October 2003

Pretty well since the day I bought it, my 2003 Civic 5-speed gets 47-49 mpg imperial gallon or 39-40 us gallon if I cruise at around 100-110 kmph/63-68 mph. This car is more powerful and far roomier than your old car (which is still better than many newer small cars). My old Saturns were good for up to 53-56 mpg imperial or 44-46mpg US. So I lost some mpgs buying this new car.

The only cars that get better fuel econ these days are the Corolla and Echo. Both are quite a bit smaller inside and are not as fun to drive IMHO (I own a Corolla).

lngtonge18 · October 2003

Honda is only concerned that their engines last 36k. After that, if something fails, it's the owner's responsibility, not theirs. Ever notice how those with higher powertrain warranties have lower oil change intervals? The company with high liability is going to cover themselves as much as possible. Obviously, Honda would be potentially damaging their reputation for quality if they got too lenient in maintenance and things started breaking too early. But still, not that many people keep their cars past 100k anymore so they are trying to make the cars look cheaper as far as maintenance costs go rather than worry about engine longevity. After 100k is where the oil change interval will make a difference. Tear your engine down at 150k and I guarantee you it will not be in as good as shape as one who changed their oil every 5k, unless synthetic oil was used.

As far as other maintenance intervals go, their is nothing to really contend. Brake fluid isn't under the same conditions as oil so it's fine to change it every 30k. Same goes for the tranny.

Lastly, do you never see temperatures that exceed 90 or go below freezing? You never encounter stop and go traffic? You never exceed 60 mph on the highway? If you do encounter these things, than how can you consider yourself under "normal" circumstances? These all fall under severe circumstances. Ultimately, it is your car so if you don't care how it lasts past 100k than don't worry about it.

vocus · October 2003

Honda doesn't offer any other warranty besides the 3/36 on their cars? I didn't know that actually, as I never have shopped seriously for a Honda due to the fact that the dealer always treated me rudely when I went there.

I had read in a car price book that Hondas don't have any roadside assistance, one of the only carmakers out there who don't. I find that kind of disappointing actually.

dunworth · October 2003

Up here in Canada Honda's have a 5 year/100,000 km/60,000 mile warrantee. Bumper to bumper is 3 year/6000 km /36 miles. No road side assistance is standard.

My experince with Honda engines is that they last a really long time. Even well maintained Civics from the 1980s routinely have more than 300,000 km/180,000 miles on them.

micweb · October 2003

...on a Scion xA of all things. You can read my impressions on the Scion on the xA message board.

Basically if you are only going to have one car, the Civics are better - more middle of the road - but a little plain vanilla - and the xA is a lot of fun to play with.

I'll let you know if the fun wears off, and what the gas mileage is.

seaf · October 2003

Let's assume that Honda is only concerned about engines that are covered under warranty and don't care how long it runs afterwards. That means if they recommend long oil change intervals, they leave the impression their cars need less maintenance, but they risk a lot of engines dying prematurely. This means their "reliable" brand image would be tarnished (one of the main selling points of a Honda for the average buyer).

So I don't think Honda would want the potential disaster of being known as makers of engines only lasting 50k miles just to gain the image of needing less maintenance. Therefore I believe their decision to recommend a long oil change interval was studied very well and it's a decision that meant they truly believe their engines will perform just as well with the longer oil change intervals.

isellhondas · October 2003

Assuming honda doesn't care after the 36,000 mile warranty runs out is pure rubbish!

Of course they care! They have built their reputation on building bulletproof engines that go 250,000 miles and more.

Why would they want to risk ruining that by suggesting oil change intervals that are too long?

dunworth · October 2003

Oils do last longer now adays and up here Honda uses a semi synthetic which is why our service intervals are 8,000 km (5,000 miles) not 5,000 km (3,000 miles).

Ask anyone with a really high mileage engine, Honda or otherwise, and most will have done more oil changes than fewer. Most engines will last a long time today, even the cheap little Alpha 1.5 in the Hyundai Accent will last 240,000 km/ 150,000 miles if properly looked after.

vocus · October 2003

Funny you should mention the Accent. My co-worker has a 1995 with about 100K on it, and it runs like a top. She said she changed the oil every 3-5k in it.

Civics do run forever anyway. I would guess it's because when they get to a higher mileage, owners become more careful with them and treat them better.

lngtonge18 · October 2003

I didn't mean to say Honda doesn't care about their reputation or that they would willingly build engines that self destruct after 50k. I was simply trying to point out that changing your oil more often will lead to a longer lasting engine with a much lower chance of oil burning. Tear down an engine with 10k oil changes and one with 3k and you will see a difference in the amount of wear. Does Honda care that more wear will occur? Not really, since the wear will take plenty of miles and Honda's liability for repairs will be long gone and its doubtful their reputation for quality would be harmed. From what I have heard from mechanics, no one fits the normal schedule and if you are concerned with keeping your car a long time, than you should follow the severe schedule. Following Honda's normal schedule is ok if you don't plan on keeping the car for the long haul. It does save money and resources. But believing that Honda knows their engine will not suffer any consequences from 10k oil changes is just plain silly. Honda may have good engines, but they can't change the stress and contamination that occurs as a natural byproduct of combustion. The engineers are making a compromise between longevity and cheaper maintenance.

bd21 · October 2003

I could not have said it better myself! You are right on every point. I suggest the people that think they are mechanics, but really have done little work on engines, go talk to a real mechanic and get the real story(not Honda or the Lube Center). If you want to keep your car for as long as possible, you should follow the severe maintenance schedule regardless of what you think your driving habits fall under.

anonymousposts · October 2003

Even if Honda engines started failing at 100,000 miles their reputation would suffer. People would stop wanting used ones which would cause resale to suffer and in the age of the internet it would be posted all over: "Honda engines self-destructing!!!!" I know the reason we keep buying Hondas is because we bought a couple of higher mileage, not-so-well-cared-for Integras and Civics and with some regular maintenance we got tens of thousands of miles out of them with NO problems. Sold them and the people who bought them did the same. In addition to that, the interiors were all still in one piece, no tears in the interior, no broken switches, everything still worked down to that last interior light and power window.

Honda KNOWS where their market is or they wouldn't advertise their reliability in commercials. They are not going to risk that for $20 oil changes.

dunworth · October 2003

Something we learned in engineering school - you can't cheat physics! I do not understand why Honda and Toyota in the USA are suggesting longer service intervals at all. They do not in Canada. And most of the populous parts of our country have similar weather to that of the northern US.

Yes the metallurgy in the newer motors is excellent and hard wearing. Yes today's oils are vastly superior and formulated to withstand far more abuse. And yes today's cars have more technology on board to optimise combustion and overall engine performance. But at the end of the day, oil will decide if that engines lasts or not. And statistically a small portion will fail, even if 10,000 miles is the new interval based on all this technology. Statistically, the number of failures would diminish as the suggested service interval decreased.

So why take a chance at all? Look at the engine sludging over at Toyota (other engines also sludge we just have not heard about them as much). It shows they goofed and now some people think twice about buying a used late model Camry.

Honda already has serious problems with failed trannies on its V6 powered cars (and I am also hearing of premature failure on a number of I4 trannies as well). And keep in mind these are failing well past the warrantee period in many cases. But people buy Hondas to last and 100,000 miles is not good enough.

crv16 · October 2003

Honda is going with higher oil change intervals because of the following:

- Engines are built to higher (closer) tolerances, so fewer contaminants get into the oil.
- Engines are running cleaner, due to advances in engine control electronics, therefore reducing oil contamination.

Also, I'm sure they have done extensive testing (much like CR did with their oil test) and found that the oil maintains the vast majority of its lubricating qualities well past the 10k mark.

lngtonge18 · October 2003

I dare you to drain the oil from your Honda after 10k and than go have it checked. I seriously doubt the oil will have retained a "vast majority" of its lubricating and cooling properties and I also doubt chemical infiltration will be negligible. I'm talking regular dino oil here not synthetic. Someone recently had their oil analyzed from their 01 Elantra after 45k for kicks. The person had been changing the oil every 4k I believe. The oil test came out great, but it was suggested to that individual that 4k oil changes should be the limit. Some of the chemicals in the oil were elevated and it would only get worse as more miles were accumulated. I'd suggest you actually research things rather than assume Honda knows whats best for you.

isellhondas · October 2003

Really. So, one person changes oil every 10K and their neighbor does it every 5K.

One engine go's 300,000 and the other 275,000?

Who really knows?

seaf · October 2003

The 3k miles per oil change has been established for a long time based on older technologies and probably other non-scientifically based influences. We can't cheat physics, but you're assuming the engines are already built running close to their theoritcal efficiency. I'd say a more realistic expectation is that older engines have progressed from 70% to 80% efficiency in terms of durability in the past. And now in recent years, engineers have inched that up to 90%. This doesn't mean we've cheated physics, just that technological progress has allowed us to be able to build things that are closer to theoretical optimum specifications.

anonymousposts · October 2003

An Elantra and an Accord/Civic are VERY different. Honda is an engine company. They say it themselves. They just happen to build great cars.

dunworth · October 2003

Honda makes great engines - no argument from me there. But Hyundai's Beta 1.8 and 2.0 are fairly durable if not quite as refined as Honda's motors. I think a well maintained Beta should be good for 150,000 miles or 240,000 km for the average car versus Honda's routinely last more than 200,000 miles 320,000 km with proper maintenance. There is at least one million mile Honda engine in the US. I have not heard what the highest mileage Hyundai motor is yet.

Transmissions on the other had are another story. I do not like any of Hyundai's trannies. Autos are jerky and not very robust while IMHO the manuals are just about the least precise on the market. Meanwhile the 5 speed in the Civic is as good as it gets anywhere south of a BMW 3 series and the Civic auto is also respectable.

lngtonge18 · October 2003

How did I know you would attempt to bring that distinction up?? Hyundai recommends 7.5k oil changes under normal circumstances so why would the oil already be reaching its limits by 4k? And it's not because Hyundai engines are junk. It's because very few people fall under the normal schedule. Like I said before, drain your Honda's oil at 10k and have it tested. Than we will see whether Honda knows what they are talking about.

I do agree with you on one point. The new Civic front end and alloy wheels is much nicer. I haven't seen it in person yet though.

snarks · October 2003

Personally I have done 5k mile oil changes on my 200,000 mile 95 Civic and have no issues. The last time the valve cover (179k) was opened for T-Belt change mechanic was suprised how clean it was since, he brought it to my attention. My conditions are New England (anywhere below 0 to above 90). My driving is not pure highway but not much stop and go. I have had no issues with the car at all including the motor, except for a radiator at 150k miles. I use dino oil as manual prescribes.

anonymousposts · October 2003

My point is that a Hyundai engine may have different requirements than a Honda engine. We trust Honda to tell us when to change the timing belt why wouldn't we trust them to tell us when to change the oil? Honda specifically says NOT to change the oil before the recommended intervals on the first oil change which could be 5,000-10,000 miles depending on your driving conditions. There were some Toyotas at 15,000 miles that were already sludged. We have seen ALOT of older Honda engines and with the exception of one 97 HX which had not had an oil change in 20,000 miles none of them have had sludge. We have seen lotsa Toyotas with sludge.

dunworth · October 2003

Are you a mechanic? Are the cars you work on similar to those in North America (your flag says Netherlands).

I have been to Holland (Amsterdam and The Hague)during the mid to late 1990s, but most of the cars there were quite different from here. Lots of Fords, Volvos an VWs. The only Toyota's I would see were Carina and Corollas. It was very rare to see a Honda other than the old style Civc liftback.

dunworth · October 2003

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/031006-1.htm

anonymousposts · October 2003

No I am not a mechanic. I just have a car-crazy husband who passed that interest off to me.

And we live in GA. I just liked the Netherlands flag. Wanted to be different. But I LOVE the USA.

vocus · October 2003

If anything, she's a car salesperson at heart. She buys enough cars to know the ins and outs of it..

anonymousposts · October 2003

lol ... we have bought more than our fair share. But with the 04 Accord bought 3 weeks ago and the new SI 1 week ago .. we are DONE for a LONG time.

pat · October 2003

If you say so...

Congrats on your news, by the way.

anonymousposts · October 2003

Thanks Pat. Can't wait for the new addition now ... and I don't mean another car

scubagator · October 2003

I am wondering if the 01 Civic needs snow tires. I live in New England and see a fair amount of the white stuff. I used to drive an older Accord which got through the snow fine without them, but my 02 Odyssey won't go without them. Anyone have anything to say about the Civic?

Thanks.

elmoblatch1 · October 2003

on my 1998 Honda Civic. When the headlights are on, isn't the floor mounted shifter for the automatic tranny supposed to light up so you can see what gear you are in at night ?

I just noticed this on my wife's car the other night & it seems odd that it does not light up. I checked the fuse box & owner's manual & no mention of a floor gear shift light or replacement bulb in mentioned.

Thanks in advance-

anonymousposts · October 2003

I don't think it lights up in the 96-00 Civics. But it does have the indicator on the dash.

glenglen · October 2003

Someone told me that the new Civic has a timing chain. Is this true? If it is true, what year did Civic engines start having chains instead of belts?

anonymousposts · November 2003

The only Civic with a timing chain would be the i-Vtec SI. All other models (DX, LX, EX) use a timing belt.

thel · November 2003

Paid $17,400. Its the new magnesium color. Funny, but real magnesium is silver, but this color is more of a darkish grey. Quite a nice improvement in the front end looks, that is in fact what sold me. I've only put about 20 miles on it but I've been impressed with the handling. Not as good as my Miata, but quite a bit better than the two Accords (92 LX and a 93 SE) that I traded in.

I looked at the Protege but I went with the Civic for the following reasons:

1. 2004 Civic vs. a 2003 Protege is gonna be worth more. I'm fickle when it comes to cars so that is a consideration.

2. Better mpg.

3. Better Dealer. The #1 reason by far. Both of the local Mazda dealers are unsatisfactory to say the least. The local Honda dealer is a very good establishment, even if they do tend to beat you up on trades. This will be the 3rd new Honda I've bought there in the last 3 years (told you I was fickle). I've always used the same salesman. Not that he's a great salesman (ie a MAckabee or a Cliffy) but he's a nice guy that I feel comfortable with.

I'll probably drop by from time to time with other impressions...as long as the boring oil change interval discussions are the exception rather than the rule.

anonymousposts · November 2003

Congrats on the new car. That exact car was on our shopping list when we last bought a car.

glenglen · November 2003

anonymousposts,

Which Toyota engines have you seen sludged? I undertand that it's mostly the Camry engines that have the sludge problem. I drive a '98 Corolla, should I be concerned about engine sludge?

p.s. thanks for the reply to the timing chain/belt question.

dunworth · November 2003

Congrats on the new car.

The Civic is a great car. I have a 2003 with the 115 hp motor. It now has 17000 km on it. It has been excellent. Great fuel econ, fun to drive and very comfortable - and with the flat floor the only true five passenger vehicle in its class.

Honda's are truly impressive. They all have that nice feel to them that American brands could never hope to replicate and a certain crispness that is missing in Toyota's and Nissans (although those are great cars too). The Mazda Protege drives really well and is very well built but is thirsty and resale is dismal My family has owned Hondas since the early 1990s and they have all been good cars.

Enjoy.

plaue · November 2003

elmoblatch1-

I have a 98 Civic LX and my floor-mounted shifter does illuminate at night (although it doesn't really show what gear you're in down there, the PRNDL indicators in the dash cluster do that). It sounds like you have a burnt-out lightbulb.

anonymousposts · November 2003

The sludge affected the 2.2L used in the 92+ Camry and the 3.0L V6 used in 92+ Camrys, ES300's, Siennas, etc. I wouldn't worry about it at all if you have a Corolla.

gregoryc1 · November 2003

I am always amazed at people who purchase an expensive piece of equipment, and then want to save a few dollars on "state of the art" preventive maintenance by extending oil and filter changes. An oil and filter change at every 3,000 miles is not a waste of money or natural resources. It is good / sound preventive maintenance for vehicles that are operating under severe conditions in "stop and go traffic" every day. The purpose of engine oil is to cool, lubricate and clean internal engine components. Dirty oil does not do a good job of cooling, cleaning and lubricating internal engine components. Use a high quality lubricant and a high quality filter, and change the oil and filter every 3,000 miles. When your vehicle has 100,000 + miles on the clock, it will run like a new engine, and the crankcase will be very clean. Don't worry about natural resources, the oil in your vehicle is being recycled. Our two Hondas get an oil and filter change at the dealer every 3,000 miles. Our dealer has a "quick lube service" and the prices are competitive with aftermarket lube services, plus all of our service records are in one place, should a warranty issue develop. Another area of concern is keeping the combustion chamber and the fuel system components clean and carbon free. Not all fuel contain the same detergents. I run an upper cylinder lubricant in the fuel,(Marvel Oil),---- (4 ounces to each 10 gallons of fuel) for the valves, piston rings and fuel injectors. I also run premium fuel in my engines. The "book of Honda" states that you must use 86 or higher octane. It does not state that you cannot use premium fuel. I like the performance that the premium fuel and the upper cylinder lubricant gives me. My engines are very quiet and powerful for 4 cylinder engines. The acceleration "out of a toll booth" is OUTSTANDING!!!!!! YES, Marvel Oil is safe for the O2 sensor and the Cat Converter. NO, I do not work for Marvel. I also use Marvel Oil in the fuel of my I/O MerCruiser marine engine. ----Just my opinion. -----Greg

Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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