Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

gogiboy · November 2004

"Laugh all you want, but it is true. The more flashing lights you add the more interested certain segment of the population becomes."

blueidgod's point is illustrated beautifully in the mid-80s movie, Ruthless People. Anyone remember Judge Reinhold's stereo salesman character and his sales pitch to the glassy-eyed young male customers? I have absolutely no doubt that the marketing staffs for many the car manufacturers try hard to find the glitzy stuff that will sell to a certain segment (MP3 and satellite radio come to mind). This glitz only becomes a problem when it is used deliberately to obfuscate deficiencies in design or engineering or to pad the selling price with minimal--or no-- value to the consumer. Caveat emptor!

backy · November 2004

You mean, like the satellite radio that Honda has made standard on the Honda Accord Hybrid? Must be those low-income people going for the "glitz" who will buy that car, while the upper-income folks go for the Civic. ;-)

gfedchak · November 2004

Read the book that I referenced earlier, or Google on demographics and car buying habits.

The poor are insecure for obvious reasons. They scrounge around for Fords and Hyundais that offer them the little comforts that make them feel as if they're special in a world that, in general, doesn't treat them as if they're at all special. Leather seats or oversized wheels and tires or other treats are compensation for jobs they hate and would never do if they didn't get paid to do them. Sort of like the oversized portions chain restaurants feed them.

This is the market that Ford is targeting for the Mazda 3 and the Focus. It's a large market, in more ways than one. Think of it as the Walmart audience.

Middle class folks are also insecure for obvious reasons and need their special treats, but they have more money - or at least credit! - to toss around, so they love their satellite radio, their leather seats, their iDrive, their safety features, and all the (unnecessary) power that they can get.

The wealthy are certainly more secure, but plenty of them aren't so secure psychologically, especially if they weren't always rich, and so they tool around in $60,000+ automobiles.

But as the book I referenced talks about, a large chunk of the wealthy has gotten beyond cars, and realizes that, in the grand scheme of things, cars aren't important.

Someone here a long time ago mentioned that they live in a super-high-end neighborhood in Toronto, and everybody there seems to drive a Honda Civic. Exactly.

I remember talking to the CEO of a tech company a few years ago. She could have driven anything she wanted to drive, but she drove a Volkswagen Golf. She probably did so because she had a life beyond leather seats and fat tires. She didn't need those things, inexplicably, because she wasn't a wage slave, because she didn't have credit card debt, and because she actually did have money.

"The Millionaire Next Door" is another book that talks about the car buying habits of the quiet wealthy. The quiet wealthy are not "into" cars.

The super-high-end Golf or Civic driver is someone who has gotten beyond cars, probably because she or he more interesting things to do.

I guess if you can show who you really are by what you do, you don't have to show who you are by what car you drive.

dgs · November 2004

Oh boy, this thread has gone from bad to stupid very quickly. So now the new argument is that only the "smart people" see the value in an under-performing featureles car? And now niceties like 6-disc CD players, side airbags, ABS, and heated leather seats are considered frivolous bells and whistles? Wow, I don't know how some of you people make this argument with a straight face.

Be happy with your underperforming, featureless, expenisive Civic, but please don't kid yourself that you have some higher intelligence because you spent more money for less car (actually most people would consider that stupid, but what do they know). Gee, I guess all the people who spend many thousands of dollars for the luxury equipment found in a BMW or Mercedes are stupid too. Damn, if only they had realized they could have purchased a Honda Civic and been associated with the "smart crowd!"

I showed this thread to my wife when she was drinking OJ and she laughed so hard it about came out of here nose. You people are too much.

gfedchak · November 2004

This is not an argument, or a debate, or about personal opinions. It's facts. It's what people in different circumstances actually buy, and it's about why they buy it.

I didn't know who bought what, or why, until I read the aforementioned books. I was shocked.

But those are the facts!

I can tell you clearly and unambiguously, I drive a Civic but I want - want! - a BMW 3 Series (or something close).

I was quite surprised that the wealthy want Buicks that have, at the most, good heaters, or else, at the other extreme, Civics with really narrow tires............

backy · November 2004

No, it's not an argument--it's a comedy monologue! And a great one, too. My sides are splitting. The humor is fantastic, stuff like it's a fact because someone wrote it down in a book! Or the assertion that if a rich person doesn't care about cars, they would obviously choose a Civic. Look around. They are buying Priuses, and paying thousands over list for them. (Maybe they buy Civics for their kids, but that's another thing.) The statement about the Mazda3 being a "Wal-mart" car was a classic, too. The Cavalier might be a "Wal-mart" car, if there is such a thing. The Mazda3? No.

imidazol97 · November 2004

the Michael Weiss book says that Civics are the cars to buy because "rich" people buy them. Is this correct?

And Foci are for the Walmart crowd who are seeking relief from insecurity?

And this is presented as being credible!!!

I just checked for the Michael Weiss book in our library. They have a book published by him in 1988 in storage from lack of use. Apparently they didn't feel anything newer was in demand enough to buy.

blueiedgod · November 2004

"few "stand alone" manufacturers that have not become a conglomerate"

I see Hondas (Civics, Accord, Odyssey, Pilot), Acuras, Honda lawn mowers, Honda motorcyles, Honda home generators, and what else with the Honda name. What's your definition of a conflomerate?

You are confusing models with brands. Honda has Honda and Acura brands (only in US), the rest fo the world still gets Honda Civic and Honda Integra, Honda Accord instead fo Acura TSX, and Honda Legend instead of Acura RL. Civics, Accords, and Pilots are models, just like RSX, TSX, TL, RL... Yes, when you buy a Jaguar X-type you are buying a glorified Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique just like when you buy Acura RSX you are buying a glorified Civic. But Ford has it as a brand all over the world, just like Saab is a brand, not a model of Chevy, although it shares alot of components with GM sibling. Honda is a small guy compared to the Ford, GM, and Hyundai's of the world.

pat · November 2004

We are s'posed to be discussing the Civic here. These side conversations about who buys what for what reason aren't on topic.

Thanks for your cooperation.

gogiboy · November 2004

"Be happy with your underperforming, featureless, expensive Civic..."

I am happy with my Civic. I'm also amused that you continue to bemoan what you consider the shortcomings of the Civic. Why do you care? This is a CIVIC group after all! Be happy with your choice

I would say that the Civic could be seen as a bland driving experience, but that's OK since obviously many, many Civic owners find it an acceptable aspect of the car. I wouldn't, however, consider it featureless even though it lacks leather seats/seat warmers etc. I do feel that Honda should include the most up-to-date safety gear and charge accordingly.

Expensive? Sure it may cost a little more to begin with, but what about the total cost of ownership? I compared my 94 Civic to a 94 Escort with the same mileage (112K) and condition and Edmunds private sale price was $2885 for my Civic EX and $1259 for the Escort. A 2000 Civic EX private sale was listed at $9906 vs. $6867 for a Focus ZTS. So, clearly the Civics don't depreciate as much. Furthermore, I've spent about $100/year for 10 years outside of scheduled maintenance. So I ask, in the short and long run is it really more expensive?

Under performing? I guess by that you mean lack of torque or 0-60 times?? Who buys a Civic for that? If I want some performance I'd rather drive my 92 Toyota MR2 than any 04 small sedan any day.

dgs · November 2004

Your post is sane and rational. I agree with all of it. My comment was in response to the guy who started critizing other econo class car buyers as stupid for choosing the competition over Honda. That is just absurd. It's all about value, both perceived and real. When it comes to the Focus VS Civic debate I feel the Focus offers real value over the Honda Civic in every area but possibly total cost of ownership. But total cost of ownership means nothing to me since I don't plan on selling the car before it's paid off, and Ford offers a very generous warranty should problems arise. Plus I don't buy a car as an investment piece so any profit I make when I sell it someday is just gravy as far as I'm concerened. I would rather derive maximum pleasure from a car that I own today, and have to make payments on today, than worrying about whatever little extra money I'll make over the competition when I sell it someday. Great, so the Civic is worth a couple of grand more after five years than a Focus, but who had more fun driving their car for those five years?

It seems to me the most important priority for the typical Civic owner is an ultra reliable car that sips fuel, and maintains a higher resale value than the competition. To buy a Civic for those reasons is completely understandable, and in that sense I'm sure the Civic makes their owners very happy.

pat · November 2004

Dgs, it is clear that you prefer your Focus to the Civic and why you prefer it. In light of the fact that this is a single-vehicle focused discussion, let's leave it alone here for now.

If you or anyone else would like to set up a comparo topic on these two cars, please feel free to hop over to our Comparisons board and fire it up!

Thanks.

gogiboy · November 2004

DGS-- I'm actually in agreement with you, particularly your second paragraph, which pretty much sums up what I--and many--feel are the virtues of the Civic.

The Focus may indeed be more fun to drive--the folks at CR seem to think so. I wouldn't dream of disparaging your choice of a Focus, particularly since my cousin's husband and two sons all work assembling Fords (and I grew up outside of Detroit). But whatever your choice, enjoy!

Even though our VW Golf was a lot of fun to drive I wouldn't buy another because the fun factor was significantly mitigated by the constant service visits and by the number of trim and other pieces that broke off or failed in a very short period. My Civic has been close to trouble-free, something that never happened with any of my previous cars. So I guess I'm rightly proud and defensive of its strengths--which I feel are many.

As you correctly point out, car owners/buyers define "value" in a variety of ways. Probably the one issue everyone can agree on in this group is that no one car/truck/SUV is right for everyone and that every vehicle has shortcomings otherwise we'd all happily drive the same thing indefinitely. However, when you swim amongst the Civi-fish you'll confront many C owners who have strong positive opinions about their car--something that occasionally leads to a kind of feeding frenzy to cleanse the pool.

ckshep · November 2004

Hi, a local dealer is offering invoice on a 4 door EX manual w/ side airbags. What do you all think about that? Anyone here bought an '05 EX recently? Should I be fickle or take it at invoice (+ tax, reg, and $398 doc fee)? I may complain about that documentation fee... Any opinions? Thanks a lot...

3c3 · November 2004

My first car was 1992 Civic EX, and at 176K miles, it's still running fine. For many years, my family had four Civics at the same time. However, for the car we just bought last week, we chose Corolla. For $15,500, it has ABS, side and curtain airbags, alloy wheels, and 6-CD changer. Civic LX at around $15,000 does not have these features, and Civic EX would cost a lot more and still doesn't have curtain airbags. I think Honda has to make a lot of improvements to compete in the small car market.

3c3 · November 2004

Price at invoice is way too high, and you're in the wrong forum.

ruking1 · November 2004

I bought my Honda in CA and the doc fee was 45 dollars. The distinct impression I got was it was the "price" to process paperwork!! Or more specifically, the cost of the time that it took the salaried "finance person" to try to sell you all the EXTRAS!!! I thought 45 dollars was too much! So 398??????...

mauto · December 2004

My Civic has also been trouble free. So has my refrigerator. Do I get excited about my refrigerator? I rest my case.

I think Tiger Woods is going to be the next gen. Civic advertising spokesman.

andyman73 · December 2004

After reading the last 100 posts, I thought a little personal experience could be added. My father in law bought a 2002 ZX3, brand new, for @10,500. HE loved it, not a single recall. Put 21000 miles in 13 months of ownership. He had driven second hand Civics for the 10 years previous. Chose the Focus because he gets Z plan pricing. So, that's the obvious smart choice for him. Now has an 03 S40 Volvo, broke hip, couldn't operate clutch anymore. Went upmarket because he could, and Z plan, again. Me, I've owned 3 used Civics in the last 7 years. Enjoyed them. Averaged high 30s in a mildly modified 88 CRX si. Low 40s in a 91 DX w/4M(!), also mildly modded. Averaged mid 30s in 94 Coupe EX 5/M, slightly modded. I'm not brand loyal, I buy what I like, or can afford.

have a nice day.

autonuts · December 2004

Does the newer Civics have any kind of a small tow rating/capability? I noticed the Focus has a 1,000lb. rating as does the Aveo. The Corolla has a 1500lb. rating. What makes some manufacturers able to give tow ratings to their cars and others won't? I'd ask this on the towing boards but they all appear to show very little action from readers. Could anyone answer this for me? Thanks!

andyman73 · December 2004

Sorry can't anwser that, but can say, that when I lived in Germany in the early 80s, every car, big or small, was used for towing. They have a "national vacation" period in the early summer, where it seemed like they "ALL" went camping. We would see everything on the Autobahn towing a camper. The subcompacts towed subcompact campers.

gregoryc1 · December 2004

What could anyone possibly tow with a Civic?

andyman73 · December 2004

Maybe one of those suitcases with wheels, or a nice barbeque grill.

backy · December 2004

One good use of a trailer hitch on a small car like the Civic is to hold a bike rack.

andyman73 · December 2004

Right, right, I have seen that. Just didn't think of that, in relation to tow hitches.

anonymousposts · December 2004

One time I saw a 93-95 coupe towing a small trailer with a small motorcycle on it. Looked kind of funny.

sandman46 · December 2004

The wife really likes the Civic, she doesn't want the Accord size car anymore like I want. Is it really that good? I personally prefer the EX also in the Civic lineup.

Having had 2 Corollas and now a Sentra, we really want to try a Honda product.

Any thoughts from you or Gee would be helpful.

The Sandman :-)

ruking1 · December 2004

Absolutely to your question!! But we could address your goals and or concerns better if you voice them!?

ktnr · December 2004

For me, there were three major issues to consider when comparing the Civic to the Accord.

First, for 2005 the Civic doesn't yet have side-curtain airbags. Yes, the available side airbags are large enough to provide head protection but only for front seat occupants and I have a child.

Second, the Civic has all the same components as an Accord and theoretically costs just as much to manufacture. However, in reality the retail price of the Civic is about 20% less and thus Honda had to make the Civic's components about 20% cheaper on average than the Accord's components. To me, this cost cutting is plainly evident when sitting in or driving each car.

Third, with so many trucks and SUV's on the roads, how small of a car do you want to be in when one of them bumps into you? For my family, a mid-size sedan is as small as we want to go. The Accord is just big enough to occasionally seat an adult in the rear next to a center-mounted child seat. In a Civic, my child would have to be in the much more vulnerable left or right seat position.

For me, the nicer, larger, safer Accord was an easy choice. Edmunds projects that the fuel costs on the I4 Accord (manual trans) are only $112 higher per year than the Civic.

sandman46 · December 2004

I definitely prefer the Accord size car as the main family hauler, but with the kids now about out of their teens and starting to move on, the wife really wants a smaller car. I even told her to take my Sentra and I'll drive the Accord.

Only time will tell. Still want to hold out for a 2006 model.

The Sandman :-)

ktnr · December 2004

So you've sounded her out on a used Miata, right? ;-)

sandman46 · December 2004

Doubtful. She also likes the Passat and the BMW 3 Series. But she freely admits that a car is an "appliance" to her...something used to get from point A to point B. All the maintenance and upkeep is left for me to take care of, even keeping the tank full most of the time.

Even though I have a passion for cars, I want her to get the most reliable and "cheap to keep" car...seeing as the way she feels about any car.

The Sandman :-)

ruking1 · December 2004

Hard to beat the Honda Civic then! You can pretty much tailor it price wise, from mild to wild. Not only that, Honda dealers will deal! VW Passat's and especially BMW's are much less inclined. Repair and maintainance costs seem to be real good. Honda recommends oil changes at 10,000 miles and every other oil change to change the oil filter 20,000 miles!

From my point of view the Civic is a gas guzzler at 35-39 mpg.

I was used to the wife getting 47-50 mpg in her daily commute. However it was a VW Jetta TDI !

blueiedgod · December 2004

First, for 2005 the Civic doesn't yet have side-curtain airbags. Yes, the available side airbags are large enough to provide head protection but only for front seat occupants and I have a child.

Do you really want a child's head to be exposed to the explosive force of an air bag? So far, air bags have caused more trauma than saved lives. A properly installed child seat with a propely strapped baby is much safer than any bag stuffed with black powder that explodes on impact. IMHO.

Second, the Civic has all the same components as an Accord and theoretically costs just as much to manufacture. However, in reality the retail price of the Civic is about 20% less and thus Honda had to make the Civic's components about 20% cheaper on average than the Accord's components. To me, this cost cutting is plainly evident when sitting in or driving each car.

The Civic is smaller and thus is cheaper. It cost Honda about the same to make a car, whether it is a Civic or Acura. But what public is willing to pay determines the sale price. This is why SUV's have such a huge profit margin to the manufacturer. It costs them the same to make an SUV as it does to build a small car, but they can charge $25K and up for an SUV, and not for Civic. All because no one in their right mind would pay $25K for a Civic, but would for CR-V, which essentially a Civic.

Third, with so many trucks and SUV's on the roads, how small of a car do you want to be in when one of them bumps into you? For my family, a mid-size sedan is as small as we want to go. The Accord is just big enough to occasionally seat an adult in the rear next to a center-mounted child seat. In a Civic, my child would have to be in the much more vulnerable left or right seat position.

If an SUV is big enough, an Accord will crumble too. But if you have a nimble car and quick reflexes, you are more likley to get out of the SUV's way. Besides, statistically, there are more SUV drivers hurt in collisions involving SUV's than Civic drivers involved in SUV vs. Civic collision. A poorly designed small car is what you are thinkig of. Civic is one of the safest small cars out there. While Accord is just as safe, there is no need for a bigger vehicle if you are not hauling 5 overweight adults around.

anonymousposts · December 2004

I personally like the 04-05 Civic EX. For around $16,000 new it seems like a great bargain if you tend to keep cars for a while. You (or your wife in this case) should be able to drive it for 5 years with minimal upkeep and still turn around and get 40-50% of the initial cost back. The Civic does not have side curtains but it still does well in crash tests.

In the end drive them both back to back and see which is the better compromise for both of you. If you search around you might be able to find a rental car company that carries the Civic and Accord so you can rent them for a couple of days and see which one really is the better fit.

I thought an Accord was more than big enough when I was pregnant but once the baby got here the Accord seemed to get tiny.

ruking1 · December 2004

Yes I think that if one looks at the IIHS data plus probably the NHTSA data, I think it is pretty easy to visualize how well the Civic's Accord's etc do in their respective classes.

I personally am a bit conflicted as to equipment like ABS, vehicle control, or even air bags. Being as how we are talking of air bags, if you want to keep your car for 10 years, you might be in for a nasty surprize monetary wise if your air bag needs replacing (up to 1,000 dollars EACH).

anonymousposts · December 2004

Air bag problems are rare and if there is a widespread defect more often than not the vehicle will be subjected to a safety recall. Reliability of the air bag system is pretty far down on my list of concerns in buying ANY vehicle.

ruking1 · December 2004

I was neither referring to defect nor recall. It is perfectly understandable that "...Reliability of the air bag system is pretty far down on my list of concerns in buying ANY vehicle..." being has how most people will not keep a Honda for 10 years. Also the average age of the fleet is 8.5 years old.

blueiedgod · December 2004

I think air bags need to be replaced after 10 years or so. Just like anything else, they have an expiration date. Black powder (explosive in the air bag) does not stay fresh forever.

1982simple · December 2004

Does anyone know when the redesigned 2006 Civic will be released and available for sale in the U.S.?

imidazol97 · December 2004

"Just like anything else, they have an expiration date."

Have you seen this in writing somewhere? I've never heard that tenet, but it sure doesn't mean that it is not possible! That could be a big expense. Is that the manufacturer's job?

isellhondas · January 2005

I don't think air bags have an "expiration date".

If this is the case, the expense of doing this on a ten year old car would in most cases exceed the value of the car.

Where did you come up with this?

cptsesso · January 2005

A 50 year old bullet will still fire 9 out of 10 times. If the black powder is well sealed, it shouldn't be an issue.

lngtonge18 · January 2005

I've actually read that the normal lifespan of the nitrogen inflator is 10 years. After that time, the nitrogen canister may need to be replaced in order to insure that the airbags will still employ as they were designed. Apparently, the gas inside the device ages and won't react as quickly to firing, leading to slower inflation rates and less pressure. I have seen a few manuals that stated to have the airbag system inspected after 10 years, my mom's 92 Accord being one of them.

That being said, there is no data that suggests a higher injury rate from poorly performing airbags in older cars. It is simply a possibility. One that could lead to extremely high repair expenses once the new multiple airbag cars are old. But I'm sure the vast majority will take their chances rather then pay $1k per bag.

john500 · January 2005

The infomation from Ingtonge18 is consistent with what I've read. Most modern airbags are reported to use sodium azide. When the sensor is activated, an electrical current decomposes the solid sodium azide to gaseous nitrogen very rapidly (controlled explosion resulting in a large volume increase). Several automobile makers are reported to put expiration dates on the airbags (Audi, Bentley). I would agree with blueiedgod that if you want to increase the statistical probability that the airbag will work, then replacement is a good idea. The primary supplier of airbags is www.autoliv.com. Perhaps they can answer this unequivocally.

andysandiego · January 2005

A couple of months ago, I started the inquiry of the value of Civic vs Accord, and just got the cold shoulder response that they are two different types of cars and couldn't be compared. Now, am happy to see a real dialogue on the question. I find your comments particularly credible. With 8,000 miles now on our '04 Civic EX (auto with side airbags), I really enjoy driving it, and my wife likes it too. However, shortly after we took delivery I learned that I could have bought an '04 Accord LX auto for only about $1,900 additional, and I suffered buyer's remorse. My current plan is to wait 3 years until the all-new '08 Accord comes out, and then trade.

Interesting, though, whereas we have no complaint about our Civic (34 mpg with 4 adults and luggage to Hearst Castle from San Diego), I read a lot of complaints about the Accord on the Accord Owners Forum.

Andy

ruking1 · January 2005

From a perceptual level, if you are happy with the Civic, why would you want to spend 1,900 dollars more for a different trim level in an Accord? Just this lower trim level alone in a different car will pay for app 32,300 miles of unleaded gas at 2 per gal!?

Looking to the 2008 model if history is true to form, it will probably cost %'s MORE!?

If it is a status thing, i.e., Accord has more panache than say a Civic, I can understand that.

From a trim level, another comparison point of view, would you like to compare say the EX's in the Civic and Accord lines?

I took a different tack. Given my goal for commuting ( automatic due to the SO being tired of shifting) it is amazing how much the extra's and combination packages cost!! I got a '04 Civic VP, 4 door sedan, automatic, and as you have said gets between 35-39 mpg.

Edmund's.com rates the Honda as one of the best in its class, and for cost effective transportation.

blueiedgod · January 2005

However, shortly after we took delivery I learned that I could have bought an '04 Accord LX auto for only about $1,900 additional, and I suffered buyer's remorse.

And for a couple thousand less you can get a used Explorer.

andysandiego · January 2005

You are predictably off the mark.

isellhondas · January 2005

I was looking through the owner's manual on an Audi Allroad and it reccommended replacing the airbags at least every 14 years.

What a joke! In the unlikely event an Audi could last 14 years, the costs of replacing front, side and curtain airbags would FAR exceed the value of the car. We are talking about thousands of dollars here.

Like anyone is going to replace them!

Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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