Volkswagen Passat 2005 and earlier

vwmanjimb · November 2003

The dealer that you bought your car from should have a PDI form on file that is completely checked off. In some of the cars that we have received sometimes have a couple of PDI forms in with the books. I would call the dealer and ask for the PDI form that service check off. You souldn't worry too much about it though. If they can't produce the completed PDI form, I would ask for them to do a "mini PDI" to make sure everything is okay on it. They are supposed to give you the copy of the checked off PDI form and have you sign it. It is all part of what is called "brand standards" with VW.

As to your question about the rust warranty. It will cover rust from the inside out. It will not cover for example a stone chip that starts to rust out. We sell a product called Perma-Plate that is an undercoating on the car that works hand in hand with the rust warranty. We also offer a paint protection that will protect the paint from acid rain, fall out, bird droppings, etc. It will not void the factory warranty because there is no drilling involved. I would check into an aftermarket product like that to protect your investment.

rvarnadore1 · November 2003

I just purchased vw cert Passat 02 from dealer with 16,500 mi.. My question is about the tiptronis, When shifting manuelly should I feel a slight 'slide' between gears? Of course I'm not over reving. It shifts fine in auto even while getting on it. I am not new too vw but am new to the 'tiptronics'....... as my daily driver is a 73 superbeetle....but these are as I'm sure you know a tottally differant animal! Thanks Rich

feilo · November 2003

If by 'slide' you mean delay, yes there is a slight lag (0.8 ~ 1 sec) when you shift between gears, up or down. Its a (some say bad) feature of the Tip but its normal and you will soon "live" with it.

quan69 · November 2003

thanks. i've always thought august/sept was the best time to buy but i guess what you said make sense (esp. if you don't want to take a hit on residual value of the car by buying a 2003 in sept)

burrsr · November 2003

I am in the process of purchasing a 2004 Wagon GLS 1.8T with manual, Leather, and ESP. This has proven to be a very rare combination, as there are only 5 of them within 300 miles of me (roughly 75 dealers). I found one with the color combo I want, and the price is good (Blue Anthracite/Blk Leather, $250 over invoice). However, another dealer has offered $100 below invoice for the exact same car, but a color combo I could "live with" (Silverstone Gray/Gray Leather).

So...is getting your top color combo choice worth $350? We will likely be keeping the car for 5-7 years. Advice/opinions welcomed.

robr2 · November 2003

It's your money hence your decision.

But as another poster here in Edmunds says: "Buy and Drive What You Like!!". To me the color combo is worth $350. For less than $6/mo ($350/60 months) you can have what you really want as opposed a color you could "live with".

warhawk5 · November 2003

The $350 is definitely worth it. I paid an extra $200 for the exact color combo back in June on my '03 GLX. The Blue Anthracite caught my eye originally and I fell in love with it. IMHO, the black leather is the only way to go inside, with the black dash and everything, it looks pretty snazzy

I almost settled for Indigo Blue with the gray interior, but decided I was already spending a chunk, so what was another $200, or $350 in your case. You'll have to live with this car for years, so get the car you'll absolutely love to drive and hate to park

brozhnik · November 2003

A guy I know here is a Passat fanatic-- it's the only car he would own. But he says that after 100,000 miles, be ready for expensive elecrtical repairs; up till then, he's found, not much trouble. On this basis, he advised against a 7-year/ 100,000 mile extended warranty-- he said you probably won't need extended warranty help until after it expires! (Also, I mostly put on highway miles, so maybe I'll reach 100K with the car in better shape than usual.)
Any comments?? Thanks!

markcincinnati · November 2003

. . .I am the guy who said buy and drive what you like. OK you say you're keeping this a MINIMUM of 5 years -- well for sure for sure getting what you want is worth that much.

I see folks every day that go through the coulda, shoulda, woulda -- usually on houses or cars. It will be if nothing else psychologically worth it to get the color you want.

Now for the "advice" you didn't seek -- get the best extended warranty from the best company you can find -- do your homework. It may be possible to get the warranty later, within the factory warranty period. Over a 7 year period, if that is truly your objective, I would think that such a purchase might pay for itself. I suspect this is even more true with a turbo -- not because they are "bad" or unreliable, but because there are more moving parts and expensive ones at that.

This car, with routine maintenance should be good for 150,000 miles.

Just get what you like, you won't regret it -- if you get what you "settle" with you will, with virtual certainty, be ever so slightly less happy.

Its human nature.

markcincinnati · November 2003

. . .I saw a silver Passat W8 with a wing on its butt (a spoiler on the trunk/boot lid); larger BBS wheels (17 or 18") and 40 or 45 series WIDE tires.

I think it also had some other ground effects and it looked as if it might have been lowered either with the factory sport suspension or aftermarket springs.

The car was visually distinctive -- not gaudy or tacky as these kind of things CAN be -- especially when they are NOT factory offerings. This looked somewhat like the ULTRA SPORT option that is currently available on Audi A4's -- it looked very nice and the W8 tail pipes just added that extra something too.

Is this/was this aftermarket, dealer or "factory" even if it was put on after importation?

The car looked very Audi-ish or BMW-ish -- whatever -- it look fast just sitting still. Silver with a grey leather interior and a manual transmission as I recall (the first stick W8 I have ever seen, as I think back).

I read this board -- and others, that you may also read and or particpate in all over the Internet and Audi folks (and others) seem keen to cosmetically and/or performance "mod" their cars. I see little of that mentioned here -- is it just that it is RARE (as the W8, especially, is rare) or is it just not remarked upon.

It seems that the Passat, in particular, has a very fine sports sedan lurking just below the surface and that wheels, tires, springs, wings and things (I crack myself up) are "naturals" for this car -- at least two Cincinnati area dealers seem to have boutiques where wheels and flaps and valve stem covers and shift knobs and other things are displayed.

I do see quite a few cosmetically modded, at least, Jettas -- just wondering if y'all are doing this -- especially you W8 6spd with sport package folks.

?

robr2 · November 2003

Actually I was thinking of rroyce over in "Real World Trade In Values".

wenxin96 · November 2003

A colleague has a pretty new Passat. Somehow one of the reat seat belt is stuck ---- I tried to pull it from the top of the seat (one end of the belt goes there) but there was no way
I could pull it out.

Thanks, Vincent

bjbird2 · November 2003

burrsr, personally I like the Silverstone Gray/Gray Leather) better than the Blue Anthracite/Blk Leather, just my opinion. I think the Silverstone looks rich and expensive, very classy.

outrun · November 2003

I love my Silverstone gray (first choice), but got black interior. To me, the gray interior looks "cheaper" (ie: plastic). And the tan looks too "yellow".

Gray on black. Perfect.

If if everyone agreed with me, it would be a rather drab commute.

-Craig

jeffplatt · November 2003

I'm curious about the black leather interior. Not too hot in the summer?

sadatx · November 2003

I got the reflex silver w/ black leather. I preferred the gray interior. Of course, if this was a perfect world, I woulda had the tan leather (my 1st choice) w/ reflex silver.

The black interior looks nice. Only problem is the cracks in the leather seem more obvious when compared to tan.

brozhnik · November 2003

Any pros or cons for getting mudguards for the Passat?
Thanks.

westrid_dad · November 2003

brozhnik,

Oh, if you only knew what you might be starting! Other VW boards have had some rather "spirited" discussions about mud guards. I considered mudflaps when we first got our wagon but thought I'd give it a go without them. 6 months later I ended up having the dealer install them.

They have definitely helped keep the lower quarter panels cleaner and with fewer chips, however, I do need to use more caution when going over speed bumps or "curbed" driveways. When the wagon is loaded down it can also bottom out on the flaps going over dips in the road. If your Passat is lowered that could be even a bigger concern.

That said, they have been very durable and I have no regrets installing them. Ask another owner, though, and you are likely to hear different responses. A lot of people think they are butt ugly and there is no reason on earth why you would even consider such a ridiculous idea as mudflaps on a Passat.

For me, a good decision. For you and others, to each his own.

bjbird2 · November 2003

I was wondering if mud flaps increase drag since they're not exactly aerodynamic. They would then have some minor effect on mileage and wind noise. But you wouldn't think they'd be any worse than the tires.

feilo · November 2003

I have had the OEM mudflaps front and rear on my Variant (wagon) since I got it (28K miles now) and I am really pleased with the result. They are well made and lookgood IMHO. As for the aerodynamics, I doubt if you will notice the difference in day-to-day driving; on the track maybe ...

brozhnik · November 2003

haven't had this experience yet, but will soon here in the Midwest. I expect the good handling and the ESP will help. But... will the Michelin Energy tires do, or do I need Blizzaks? Or some other winter tire? Thanks

altair4 · November 2003

Well, I think it's a decision only you can make. How much snow do you get? Ice storms? What's snow removal like in your area? Are you rural or urban?

I've survived on all-season tires here in Western PA for 15 years, all with front-wheel drive cars. But, on the other hand, I take the approach that if it's too bad out, I'm not going. Locally, that may mean I've missed two or three complete days of work and perhaps got in late two or three days more. Not bad over a fifteen year period. I'm not in a "you absolutely must be here" kind of job. Snow removal is pretty good here and really, most winters aren't severe enough to really need snows.

Others take the approach that they need full snow tires for their area. May I suggest Nokian tires? Check'em out on the web. I think they know about snow in Finland (where these tires are made)!

birdboy1 · November 2003

Last year I bought 4 195/65r15 91T nokian WR All weather plus tires. These come with the snowflake and are a real all season high performance tire. they are rated good for severe winter driving with exceptional traction as well as good on dry pavement. i travel upstate New York on the weekends and last winter was brutal, snowise and ice. the Tires and the car handled beautifully. I bought them from E tires .com the total was $396.11 includintg shipping to a tire center near my house that charged $60.00 to remove my tires and mount these. I took them off in April and will put them back on in two weeks. Hope this was helpful.

fish8 · November 2003

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1101031124- -543826-1,00.html

markcincinnati · November 2003

. . .something left unsaid in the article is that it would seem to be a more effective approach to Premium Brand introdution to ratchet up the dealer experience and the overall ownership experience. First.

Audi in the early to mid 1980's -- you know Audi, owned by VW -- faced some serious problems, not the least of which was "unitended acceleration." Ultimately, in response to the many problems Audi faced, they announced something almost unheard of "The Three Year Test Drive." I assume you know that this program, which has since been emulated by other companies, essentially said: for 36 months or 3 years after you buy or lease the car, the only thing you have to do is buy gasoline, insurance and plates -- everything else, including washing and vacuuming is paid for -- no questions asked.

My dealer was transformed overnight -- but technically the dealer took years to evolve into a Premium Product Service Organization. But we hardly noticed that it took years -- when our Audis broke -- and make no mistake they did -- or when they needed new wiper blades or even a wash and vacuum on a late Saturday morning -- voila, there it was, free and with a smile.

And, when the car was in for service, you were offered the use -- for free -- of an Audi, Porsche or Jetta GL for the duration of the required repair or maintenance -- which was almost always overnight since no Audi dealer carries any parts but apparently can get anything in 24 hours or less.

My impression, my wife's impression, my friends' impressions were that we had achieved automotive Nirvana.

The truth as it pertains to the actual "quality" of the cars was, very little had changed. The cars DID improve each and every year -- but the improvements were steady, incremental -- evolutionary.

There were no Touaregs or Phaetons back in the mid and late 80's (when the Audi advantage started) there was, as I recall, an Audi V8, but it was hardly a SUPER premium car. Audi continued to evolve the species, many would argue more slowly than BMW and Mercedes. Audis were somewhat more upscale VW's -- but one "simple" characteristic separated them, transformed them almost overnight: the 3 year test drive.

VW's approach, which y'all know I am rooting for, is to move its products up market, but there is little ballyhoo about the "ownership experience" -- it is about the driving experience, the pronunciation of a name of a vehicle, about the performance of a car so spirited it gets stuck up in a tree if the clutch is popped, etc. These images and signals would be perfect -- if the "ownership" experience perception was, shall we say, "beyond reproach."

It is not, beyond reproach.

Articles, such as the ones in the above link, have a half life that may bridge mutiple generations of car buyers, buffs and bemoaners.

VW's, in my opinion and based on my experience, most effective (not efficient) approach should be to overhaul the ownership experience. Not much would be required to do this -- not 900 million Euros of R&D, not years of product development and not even the slickest advertising concern on Madison Avenue (although both VW and Audi should fire their current ad agencies for being out of touch with the potential customers -- although I will give a couple of Jetta ads an A for humor, Golf up in a tree kind of thing, you know).

"From this day forward, ALL new VW's will offer 100% free scheduled maintenance and repairs for 4 years or 50,000 miles. Far-whatever-nugen translates loosely into 'the driving pleasure' -- now VW introduces Odd-sounding-name-here which means 'the pleasure of ownership' -- take a 50,000 mile test drive of ANY one of the fabulous new VW models at a dealer near you. When you buy or lease any new VW, you can know the joy that comes when you realize 'paying once, is enough!'"

Yadda yadda yadda.

Simulatneousely and quietly, keep the R&D and quality control processes in overdrive. Bring out the new Touareg, Phaeton and Passat models (and others, too). But for heaven's sake don't bring out a new $50,000+ Touareg that will be compared with an X5 or something else equally sexy that will find the competition is stiff, stiffer, stiffest at this altitude -- especially since the competition already offers free scheduled maintenance, and has for years.

Say, have you seen the cute X5 ads with the four flying "angels" keeping watch over the BMW's forward progress? They are now back to making the product look and sound exciting -- the maintenance and warranty are, well -- ASSUMED!

clpurnell · November 2003

I like VW products a lot and on several occasions have come close to purchasing them however something has always kept me from pulling the trigger.

I relate VW with Infiniti which I now own as two polar opposite companies with great vehicles. Where one falters the other is superb and vice versa.

Take a look at the following comparison:

Advertising: VW to me is the king of auto advertising. They did as that article states turn around a whole company on advertising with little change in the products. Infiniti on the other hand has had strong reliable products for years but there advertising leaves a lot to be desired. Until the recent intro of the FX the advertising for the other models have been awful.

Reliability: Infiniti has always ranked in the top three for reliablility and VW has brought up the rear. It is pretty much a given if you want a reliable trouble free vehicle than VW's are not for you.

Style(interior): VW is top notch here bowing only to the super expensive (range rover, bentley, jag) or to their own audi. However infinti's have often been accused of low quality materials and I think this is what keeps the G35 from being "THE" sports sedan.

Style (exterior): I think both are right in line here. VW takes a more conservative path to produce very attractive cars while Infiniti of late is more avant garde.

Service: As in reliablilty VW could learn a lot from infiniti here. Infiniti is consitently ranked in the top three in Customer Service fighting for number one with lexus. I have been extremely pleased with the sales and service departments of the infiniti dealers, however the sales departments of vw have left a lot to be desired.

Conclusion: My point to all of this is if VW really wants to make this move up market they need to improve quality and dealer service. Each time I considered a VW it was the scare of constant problems and how they would be resolved that kept me away. Marketing will get you that initial customer. But reliability and Service will keep those customers for life.

fish8 · November 2003

Nice write up Mark. You make several good points and I enjoyed reading the post!!!!

markcincinnati · November 2003

. . .yet the first thing VW could do IMMEDIATELY would be to get rid of the reliability "issue" by shifting the problem from the customer to VW.

That, as I noted, is what Audi did.

Then as you suggest get the cars up to speed with respect to reliability not just service and warranty.

I read the story of Hyundai USA and how things looked, well, rather bleak -- then they did the unheard of (taking a page from Audi when they did the unheard of) -- they offered a 10 year warranty.

OK OK so the cars were no better -- initially -- but the customer's and prospective customer's concerns were mitigated and mostly eliminated.

Now I do not believe that people will buy a car and take it to the dealer several dozen times to fix this, that and the other defect -- even if it is free. But, it -- free no hassel service -- is a HUGE first step.

Conversely, one cannot just build a more reliable trouble free auto "overnight." The 50,000 mile test drive however could be announced next Tuesday and within weeks or a few months at most the bugs -- the administrative bugs, i.e. -- would be worked out -- I mean, they could just "imitate" the Audi model. The customer buys a new car on January 2, 2004 and when it needs repair or maintenance that would normally be charged to the customer the customer becomes VWoA.

Every time I take my Audi in for service I get a bill that says all that was done, including the "shop supplies" and the net due is $0.00 -- but there is another copy of the work order and invoice -- that I have seen -- that shows the labor units x rate and an extension yielding an invoice that apparently "goes to and is paid by Audi of America."

This does nothing to make the cars better all by itself. No one that is astute enough to be participating on one of these forums would think the cars magically became more reliable. But removing the "reminder" (i.e., the $50 here and there and the $19.95 rental charge and the $80 wiper blades and on and on and on) goes a long way towards a sea change in "perception."

Remember, perception is reality.

Last but not least, while I generally like SOME of VW's advertising, they are not IMO the king of car ads -- and Audi is even worse. The Jetta ad with the guy licking the handle is pretty good, as is the guy who protects his Jetta from the grocery bascart and the Golf "up the tree" superbowl ads were all pretty good to good. But Passat ads are lame and W8 Passat ads are almost non-entities and the TOE-REG, er, TOUR-EGG pronunciation ads don't make me (and this is, after all, personal) motivated to acquire the Touareg.

I still say start destroying the cost of ownership albatross that is currently around VW's neck with the 50K test drive while simultaneously working double time to actually improve the reliability (and quality) of these obviously engaging to drive automobiles.

reidk · November 2003

I "love" my Passat; over 4 years old, have had minimal problems with it, it is a Joy to drive, and still looks (nearly) as good as anything else on the road (looks being Subjective, of course!).

And I loved my '80 Jetta as well: that car ran well into the mid-1990's, and for all I know it could STILL be running - although the sunroof started raining rust down on your head after every large bump, probably starting around 1992 or so... (by which time the car was 'safely' in the hands of #1 Son--- <G!>)

BUT, would I buy another VW, Now? Perhaps Not: partly because there are a lot of other attractive vehicles available, but mainly because of the Reliability concerns cited by the article, PLUS the fact it seems you must look long and hard to find a GOOD VW dealership.

The place I bought my car from (Fortunately!) falls into that Good category - but they are well over an hour away (were some 20-25 minutes away from former work location, which wasn't too bad).

As to the two closest dealers, one is so high priced I have not taken a car there (over $600 for A SUBSET of the 40K Service on the Passat), and the other seems Incompetent at best (giving benefit of doubt), and has for over 20 years, in spite of periodic "New Ownership."
These guys have just lost one of their franchises, which does not seem indicative of a change for the better, and when my son had an oil change on his Protege (bought elsewhere, but he felt he needed an oil change in a hurry) he was informed by the Service Tech that "we put 15W40 oil in ALL of our vehicles because it is the only weight approved for them all" (!) They sell 4 brands (oops - only 3 now...), who knows how many different models, and ALL THEY HAVE IS 15W40 OIL????? I literally could not believe it, accompanied him when he went to pick the car up, and was ASSURED by the Service Manager that "15W40 was fine for everything we service." All seasons; all vehicles; all years; all driving styles.
Gee, my Passat manual seems to Suggest OTHERWISE....

Now, am I likely to plop down $40K to $85K for a VW - knowing what the service experience is likely to be? Ok, maybe not $85K under ANY circumstances - but probably not even $40K even WITH 4 years Free Service - and certainly not given the company's current poor reputation for service and reliability problems (Although, note that the latest CR Annual Report shows Above Average Reliability for the Passat - but POOR for Jetta and Golf...)

Maybe it was a mistake for VW to try to attract drivers who are Passionate about their cars: this works as long as the cars are fairly well built and fun to own / drive, but (as the article suggests) is likely to backfire if Quality goes south.

clpurnell · November 2003

I agree with you totally if they stepped up to the plate and stood behind there cars that would turn them around a lot faster.

However there are many audi, bmw and MB owners who receive this treatment and still left the brand because of reliability. Given that this is harder to change and will take time but I think VW needs to make that their number one priority. I feel if they could be known as the reliable german brand that would go farther than anything else they could do.

Infiniti had a mini fiasco on it's hands with the G35 and premature break wear (5-15k miles and needed new rotors and pads) they just came out this week with a 3yr 36k mile warranty on breaks and rotors (also will pay for break jobs retro). allieviating that concern just as you suggest VW do.

markcincinnati · November 2003

How could VW -- in 1 year's time -- become reliable, and KNOWN for it?

Hyundai knew their sales ship was sinking. Audi, after their well publicized issues (60 minutes) also saw the US market abandoning them -- the response was to INSTANTLY stand behind -- 101% -- the cars while simultaneously working on reliability and quality.

It is possible to put a 100% no questions and no fees service, maintenance and warranty program together rapidly. It is NOT possible to turn the entire manufacturing ship around in 1 model year.

I agree 100% that the product itself must improve and improve rapidly. But, for a lot of folks the ownership experience and COSTS loom large come end of lease term.

My buddy loved his new beetle -- but after only 2 years, little pieces of trim popped off and when the headlight went out, well the repair cost stupified him (as I always say, maintaining and repairing German cars is BREATHTAKINGLY expensive without the Customer Advantage programs offered by Audi, BMW and Mercedes -- and now the Phaeton). My buddy opted out of his lease and got -- are you sitting down? -- a V8 stick shift Mustang 2 door.

One VW and out.

I fear this is becoming a trend.

I have no reason to believe that simply a 50K all costs covered program will in and of itself improve the quality of the car (or its reliability, per se); but, it may improve the quality of the perceived ownership experience.

The alternative, I guess, is to keep on doin' what they're doin' and focus focus focus on quality and reliability -- but "who wants to be the first" to put his toe in the water in 2007 when all the quality parts and manufacturing tweaks have finally worked their way through the system to the customers?

They can't just claim the cars have -- over the past few years -- become highly reliable and ask "me" to buy the advertisements. The combination of quality and "assurances" (such as the 50K maintenance and warranty for free program) are required to get me to consider plunking down my $30 - $85K.

We seem to be saying mostly the same things here folks -- but I cannot imagine that VW can just put the company on hold while they get the bugs worked out of the "quality control program."

My suggestion does not, as far as I can tell, imply or state that I think the bandaid of a financial assurance program is a substitute for actual quality and reliability.

It is the "trust but verify" approach.

clpurnell · November 2003

we are saying the same thing. Reliability does not happen overnight or in one year. I think you are right build "trust" in the cars knowing that everything is taken care of for the first 50k while steadily improving quality. My only point that contradicts is that the other german brand most notably MB have these plans at place but have DECLINING reliability. I would like VW take a more Lexus like "In the pursuit of perfection" than it's free while you lease type attitude. I Think VWoA would be a lot better off with people like Mark and VWguild calling the shots. However I doubt they will take either of our advice.

markcincinnati · November 2003

. . .AG in Germany. A person identified herself as someone working on the "European Delivery" experience among other things and wondered if I would be willing to assist in "mapping out" an automotive delivery experience commencing in Ingolstadt (the home of Audi). She found out that my wife and I have been to Germany over a dozen times and have been at the factory 6 times since 1993. Of course I said yes.

No one from VW has contacted me and this certainly makes all the sense in the world to me, since I am a fan of the brand, but not currently an actual owner.

VWGUILD (Peter) would in my opinion personify an American who might represent both sides of the situation: he has empathy with the customer and is himself a dealer rep who, has and is able to feel our pain.

Finally, I certainly hope that VW has someone who reads these posts and those on other web town halls and discussion groups. The education they would get would seem to be priceless and cost less than focus groups.

I get so many "surveys" about my cars (each with a $ or $5 bill in them) that go on and on about my cars, it drives me nuts -- perhaps VW is doing this in order to better mount a counter attack on the "top 5" customer concerns.

I have written numerous letters to AoA suggesting features, options, programs and even models. I usually get a "thanks for writing" letter back -- but considering how many times I have asked for a full screen nav system -- and it has gone on without change for this long (despite the fact that all the other high buck cars have full screen nav systems) -- makes me think that letters, screaming in the wilderness are "nice" to get but are statistically insignificant.

Edmunds and others provide a wealth of information, that is difficult to quantify, but not, I would imagine, difficult to characterize.

I have been reading and participating in Edumnds forums and others for over two years now, and I have come to the conclusion that there appears to be a "lot of love" for the cars themselves (the VW's) but growing disatisfaction with the dealer body and product quality and reliability.

VW. . .the cars you love to hate! Now there's a catchy tag line.

I wonder what living in a city with public transportation would be like. . .

brozhnik · November 2003

First, thanks, everyone for the input on mudflaps, PDI, etc.
One question: I sometimes notice what seems to be a lot of vibration coming up through the seat. Idling, or going slow. Not every time - just sometimes. Is the Passat just like that, or is something wrong (at 1000 miles)? If so, what?
Thanks!

03w8 · November 2003

I have a W8 for about 6 months now. I have never really tried to manually shift the tiptronics A/T. I just thought it felt unnatural without a clutch. My sales person had never told me the proper way to shift. Should I ease off the gas, like on a regular A/T, when I shift? How much gas should I ease off? Do I need to downshift the gear 1 by 1 when I come to a stop. What are the recommended shifting speeds (both accel and decel)?

markcincinnati · November 2003

Shifting does not require and will not improve if you let off the accelerator. Indeed, even though the system will comply, fundamentally, with your requests under full, part or released throttle, the best acceleration will be in full auto mode, if best acceleration is what you are seeking.

The tip in your W8 may even have the hill sensing feature. Essentially this means that when you go down a hill the transmission will under certain circumstances automatically shift down one gear.

Further mad scientist programs exist that do an OK job of figuring out what you want -- that is if you have recently been driving to achieve higher accelerative forces, the transmission will hold each gear longer even without fully depressing the pedal.

I found the manumatic function to be mostly unsatisfying and only when I wanted to hold a gear (usually 2nd or 3rd) for a period outside of the transmission's ability to "know" -- it certainly isn't going to improve your 0-60 times (if that is important).

You don't need to down shift when slowing down, the tip in tip mode will automatically down shift as it needs to if you forget; and when you come to a stop it goes to 1st. You also can't overrev the engine because if you are in tip mode and floor the car, the upshift will happen if you do nothing pretty close to the engine's red line (which is pretty much what it does in kickdown in full auto mode).

For me, the tip response was too slow -- the possible exception to this was a 2002 Audi S6 avant that I test drove. It is the ONLY tip I have ever driven that really lived up to its publicity. Most tips create a sensation that has been dubbed "tip lag" that for all the world feels very similar to turbo lag in some older turbo engines (where the turbo kicked in around 3,000 rpms rather than at sub 2,000 rpms on VW's and Audis.)

So, tip if you must. But I think Cow-Tipping is more engaging than Tiptronic-Tipping.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Not to rub anything in -- but you could've had that sweet W8 with sport suspension and a 6spd manual. What were you thinking?

Oh yea, my sales person DID give me the "basic" tiptronic lesson, in a Porsche -- even there it seemed to distance the driver from the instant control of the car that at this price range "ought to be!"

rahmibub · November 2003

Yes, the tiptronic shift lag can be very annoying. But, if you look at it, the lag is probably the same amount of time it takes a person to make a shift on a manual car, so it's probably the same.

The Passat does learn how you drive your car. Items such as acceleration, shifting speeds and such are learned by the car. Some people loath the fly-by-wire system, but I like it - it just knows when to downshift for the inevitable acceleration during a turn.

One thing though - remember that the keys are coded individually - so it remembers how the driver of each specific FOB drives.

03w8 · November 2003

Thanks for the info, Mark and Tex. I bought the car off the lot so I didn't have much choice. It does have the sports pkg though. I do have other non-auto cars and that is why I found shifting the tiptronic an un-natural act. I don't understand why BMW (and the up coming VW convertible) makes a big deal about having the shift button on the steering wheel. To me, that is even worse.
It is because of the shift lag in the fully auto "D" mode that sent me searching for a better way to shift. Then I found out shifting myself makes little difference.

markcincinnati · November 2003

The "time" it takes to depress the clutch, move the shift lever, let out the clutch and press the accelerator vs the "time" it takes for the tip to act or react to your commands (either in full auto mode or in manu-matic mode) are measurable. I have no quarrel with that fact.

However, the difference is that with the full manual, I know for certain when the power or the "needed pull" will be there, I don't have to anticipate the transmission's "decision cycle."

And, after three tiptronics, the last two Audi A6 4.2's -- which at least had gobs of power -- I still could never precisely determine when my "command" was going to occur.

I would say (via my accelerator pedal) "engage" and there would be a momentary pause almost like the kid who wins the spelling bee: he/she hears the word, looks to the sky (as if the spelling is stored "up there" in some accessable grey matter) then begins the spelling of the word.

Or better said, it was like the reaction to standing in an elevator with a bunch of people in business attire and a cell phone goes off. There is a split second delay and then everybody begins patting themselves down until finally someone says "it's mine."

The events happen quickly, but I often found myself over reaching for accelerative power after having found out time and time again that that was the only way to insure I would get that power that I had requested from my tip.

With my manual transmission, and I suspect the new VW/Audi DSG (or is it DGS?) automatic clutch transmission, my command is carried out in real time -- there is no "lip synch" delay.

I have been told that this tip lag is gone from the RS 6 and as I noted it was virtually gone from a 2002 S6 avant that I test drove (but here we're talking about base prices and MSRP's from $59K to $88K) -- but once you have become accustomed to "immediate" responsiveness, even the best tip-type transmission takes the sharpness off the keen edge that even an OK manual can impart.

If your dealer has a W8 Passat 6spd and a tip version -- take a long back to back test drive in each. The differences are not subtle (I have done this in an A6 2.7T -- hence my decision to dump the A6 4.2 sport for an allroad 2.7T w/6spd.)

Time, then, is not the only issue -- it is responsiveness at the exact moment it is desired that separates these two transmissions.

Now, having said all of this -- I in no way am suggesting that the tip transmission is defective, bad, stupid, evil or junk. The tiptronic is a fine transmission and the 6spd tip is even better. Now, I hasten to add, if you get a chance, try out a CVT transmission on an Audi A4 1.8T or 3.0 for a remarkable experience.

Too bad the CVT can't handle (yet) AWD or the power of a W8 or even a 2.7T.

rahmibub · November 2003

Yeah, nothing beats a manual tranny! The ability to time the shift, the power and the control. Though I had my reasons on buying the Automatic, I have no complaints on the auto transmission. It works very well on D mode, and delivers the right amount of power when I need it.

I test drove a Manual vs an Automatic, and the Manual didn't feel as "Solid" as the manual on our old '97 Jetta - not that it felt lousy, but not as solid as one would think. I didn't notice a night and day difference then - which probably explains why I don't mind the auto tranny that much.

How does a CVT transmission feel? Do you even have to shift with one? Is the shifting done the same way (release gas, clutch, shift, press gas)?

markcincinnati · November 2003

When you drive a CVT transmission you at first think the car is defective -- there is no shifting whatsoever. Indeed the RPM's just rise the familiar sound of the engine building rpms, then dropping them as the next higher gear is selected until 5th or 6th is reached is absent.

It is, perhaps, like driving a turbine -- not the sound, the FEEL -- the car starts at say 800 rpm and continues to climb steadily until you reach whatever speed you were aiming for.

So, if you drive from 0 to 70mph there is no shift sensation or sound, the engine just climbs as if the engine was connected directly to the driving wheels.

It is, initially, eerie.

There are 6 "ratios" implied but the shifting is virtually imperceptable -- hence the name Constant Velocity Transmission (of power).

After a couple of hours with one, it made me wish for a big honking V8 with an all wheel drive train and "whooooooosh" that is all there would be.

Rumor has it it is getting stronger and adapted to all wheel drive. I would assume it will make it to other VW/Audi cars when that happens. It is super super smooooooooooooooth.

bronsonb · November 2003

Just wanted to share my current situation with all on the board. This is regarding my wife's 1999 Passat V6 GLS. We had the 2 year/24K warranty and service and 10 year, 100K miles powertrain warranty.

We have somewhere around 73,000 miles on the car. I took it to VW last week on Tuesday night because we had an oil leak that appeared to be coming from the driver's side valve cover.

Last Wednesday, VW gets to the car and verifies the oil leak is caused by a faulty gasket and is covered by the warranty (Thank God). But, they also discovered some problems with the cam tensioners (I think that's what he said). They needed to keep the car overnight. We said sure.

Thursday comes and goes with no call from VW. I call at 5. Car still isn't ready. They had problems putting it back together (images of our black Passat amidst a sea of engine parts spread out on the floor). They need to keep it one more day. I grudingly agree. Friday comes and no car. I call and ask, kindly, for a service loaner, which they quickly agree to. They put me in a 2004 Jetta from Enterprise Car Rental. They say the car will be done Monday because they now have to order a part.

Monday comes and goes. Car is STILL not ready. They got the part in, and the mechanic is working hard to put it together but needs more time. Also, they said it was idling rough, and they think they might have a bad part in the engine somewhere causing that. Since I have their rental car, I say sure.

Tuesday comes, and they supposedly get the car ready. They tell me that the OBD is sending a code that says the computer won't recognize the throttle body, which might be causing the rough idle. I tell them that it didn't do that before. They say something to the effect of "tough, but it's not covered under the warranty." Do I want to spend $600 to replace the throttle body? The service rep admits that it might just reset itself if left alone, so I opt to do that. I tell them I'll leave in an hour to get it.

They call minutes before I was set to leave, and it turns out that the cam tensioner they installed is the wrong part. It does have the correct part number on it and on its box, but it is working backwards. And if the car runs more than a few minutes, the valves (or valve stems - I can't recall) will be seriously damaged.

So they kept the car all day Wednesday and Thursday, and they still don't have it fixed. The last I heard they were "getting closer" to getting it fixed. Makes me wonder if they didn't lose the car or wreck the car and are stalling for time. At least I have a rental they THEY'RE paying for.

The one nice part of all of this is that the bill will go to someone other than me when they are finally done. I can't imagine what this is costing VWoA, but I sure am glad the 99 model year had the 10 year powertrain warranty. Of course, I might get stuck buying a new throttle body down the road, but we'll have to see.

I was wondering if anyone else had similar experiences with the model years that had the 10 year powertrain (for original owners - second owners only got 5 years/50K miles...I think).

Thanks all.

markcincinnati · November 2003

. . .I know a "few" millionaires -- and even they are not rich enough to afford one of these cars without the warranty.

Audis, BMW's, Jaguars, Mercedes, Saabs, Volvos and yes VW's are BREATHAKINGLY EXPENSIVE to repair.

It is not that they will all need repair, it is just that it costs a "young fortune" to repair them. You wouldn't dream of driving an unisured car or living in an unisured house or living without an HMO, PPO or other health insurance -- well, the warranty, factory or extended or even paid-for-by-you factory extended warranty is an insurance policy that -- again -- I know of no one wealthy enough to go without.

eddie51 · November 2003

I have a 2001 passat gls 1.8t. it is close to the 4ok miles. is it normal that I feel like it has lost some power. it is also consuming to much fuel. I called the dealership to make an appointment but the service cost $500. does anybody have any advise?

fish8 · November 2003

Did you take your Passat to Jim Ellis in Marietta?

eddie51 · November 2003

I am in Miami

eddie51 · November 2003

do you guys think we can take the cars for example to a Sears or jiffy lube and maintain them there to keep the prices down?

fish8 · November 2003

Marietta is in Ga...right outside of Atlanta. I know Bronson lives near me, therefore I asked about which dealer he brought his car to.

markcincinnati · November 2003

You may have "worn" BPV's (turbo By Pass Valve) -- this would cause the turbo's to not give you the boost you're used to getting. Other -- how I hate this term -- "tune up" issues probably need to be addressed. I don't know of any other "safe" way to answer your question except "be ready to pony up the $500."

===

I wouldn't let Sears do ANYTHING other than tires on any car I owned and liked. That is an opinion, of course. But Sears technicians probably do NOT have any VW/Audi tech skills per se. You gets what you pays for (often). The sweetness of low price kind of thing if you remember that old, but true, saw.

The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

Drive it like you live.

=====

I know it doesn't help you now, but Audis, BMW's and VW's despite the disparity in their sticker prices (today, at least) cost about the same amount to maintain.

Sorry to say, but live with it until the VW advantage program starts sometime in the not too distant future.

klimist · November 2003

I have a 2000 Passat GLS with 36,000 miles. My heater core just blew today on the way home from work... steamy windows, funky smell and puddle on the floor mats. I know that VW had a recall on heater cores in the early 90s. Anything on the newer vehicles? Other than this, the car has been great to drive. Any help/advice is appreciated.

Volkswagen Passat 2005 and earlier

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