Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans

fpereira · October 2001

Cool discussion. So if Mercedes has been forced to cheapen their cars, how have Toyota and Honda influenced BMW?

I hear BMW is introducing the 1-Series in a few years, so they're expanding too.

captain_howdy · October 2001

Hi folks. I'm a (almost) happy owner of a brilliant silver 2001 C200K (May-production).

Lately the fuel guage has starded to behave strangely. When i start up the car the guage shows half-full even though the tank indeed is full. After driving a while the fuel-level seems to rise. It's the same when the tank is not completely full. It always shows that there are less fuel than there really are.

Anyone else experienced this? It there any simple solution or should I take it to the dealer?

Thanks in advance!

/Daniel

edarte · October 2001

You actually said "German cars are engineered from the ground up." Now maybe you did not intend this strong a statement but it suggests that you think that MB (being a German car manufacturer)actually engineers each car (model line, I assume)individually. I cite the similarities between the S and the C class as suggesting this is not the case. In think these two models share considerable design and engineering. And you are not seriously suggesting that the only feature you can see in common between the S and the C is the speedometer are you? If you are serious then you are not a very good observer.

But let's be realistic; why shouldn't they share? After all they are both cars, are they not? One is not a fork lift (I will short-circuit all negative comments on the Lexus LS styling right here and now:-) and the other a Formula 1 race car.

I agree that you can find exceptions to every rule regarding quality. But my whole point is that the probability of finding bad exceptions seems to be increasing significantly with MB and decreasing with Lexus. Again read the posts in Lexus vs MB boards (anecdotal true but also, I suspect the leading edge of trouble at MB)

You state MB is the "Real thing". I, for one, do not dispute that MB has a place in automotive history. And that it continues to introduce some amazing technology. I just think they fail in producing a car that I would be really happy owning (regardless of price). In some ways it reminds me of the 20 minutes segment I saw on the Lambroghni (sp?) Countach. The driver had to open the door and hang his A** out the side in order to see behind him when he backed up. Now is that car an icon (yes), is it expensive (yes), is it unique and special (yes , yes). Would I feel everyone was looking at me if I drove it (YES YES YES) But do I want to really pay to own it and do I want to pay to maintain it (NO NO)and do I want to put up with its failings (NO)

However 10 - 15 years ago I thought that the Countach was the car I wanted. Later, as I matured, it became the MB. Now, as I said before, the lustre on the MB has dulled. Either you can't see this yet (like the the speedometer) or you don't want to be reminded of it.

The MB, still a great car, but right now, just not worth the money.

mbnut1 · October 2001

I don't get it. So what if the C and S are scaled versions of one another. At least for a C class owner that would be a good thing. To me if you have a good design such as their multilink independent suspension set up, why not share it across all your line. That just seems smart to me. The truth of the matter is the S class has a more expensive suspension system which also makes sense given it's the flagship model.

But I don't disagree about the quality thing.

404c · October 2001

I think what the person who wrote that Mercedes-Benz "engineers its cars from the ground up" meant is that they are not (unlike Toyota/Lexus) aiming to equal a competitor's car, but rather aiming to implement an empirical (as opposed to derivative) design brief. I happen to agree with him, for what it's worth.

The pretenders to the throne that appeared in 1990 were most assurredly knock-offs in many ways (most surprisingly, even visually!), a trend that continues to this day in the Lexus SUV and pseudo-SLK. This is not to say that they are by any means bad cars, but for some people this factor is a major turn-off.

I still await conclusive proof that Mercedes-Benz vehicle reliability is on a serious downward trend. Some of the anecdotal evidence would appear to indicate this, but we'll need statistical data for the C Class before we can definitively say the W203 is not an improvement on the W202.

Finally, the blanket statement that MB is "not worth the money" is nothing more than a subjective generalization. I can buy a new 2002 C240 Classic in Canada for under $24,000 US. Assuming that it is capable of use as transportation, that seems like a reasonable value/price ratio to me.

Mike

404c · October 2001

My 2001 C brochure lists the rear axle ratio of the C320 as 3.47:1.

My 2002 C brochure lists the rear axle ratio of the C320 as 3.23:1.

Strangely, the EU brochure lists 3.27:1 for the C320 axle.

The listed performance figures, including fuel economy, are identical. Strange business, what gives?

Mike

nyca · October 2001

Yes, they changed it on the 320 only. They may not have submitted the 2002 car for new MPG standards as of the printing of the brochure (as well as 0-60 times). MBUSA is having trouble meeting CAFE standards, the 2002 C320 will be slightly slower but get better hwy mileage for 2002 as compared to 2001. There was a discussion on this here a while back talking about differences between 2001 and 2002 cars.

404c · October 2001

Thanks for the explanation about the axle ratio change. I wish they'd do it to the C240 too - with its short gearing in the lower 3, it should not affect acceleration too much, but would of course improve its hwy. fuel economy potential too.

The easy solution to meeting CAFE standards would be to introduce some of the EU-only powertrains, such as the C200K (which in Europe is rated at >10% better fuel economy than the C240), and most notably the CDI diesel range (30-45% more economical). I know that the diesels would not meet CA emission standards, but one would think that, with the diesels they'd likely sell in the other 49 states, the corporate average fuel economy would go up. By the way, do the US pickup truck manufacturers sell their smoke-machines (large TD trucks) in CA? If so, there is some topsy-turvy regulation happening.

Mike

habitat1 · October 2001

With respect to your search for a carwash in the DC area, I somehow manage to wash my car throughout the winter. However, I have several friends who use the car wash on Connecticut Avenue near the Van Ness Metro (next to Burger King) and have seen quite a few BMWs and Mercedes in line on the sunny winter days. There is also a car wash on Wisconsin Avenue between the Tenleytown and Friendship Heights Metros.

oyee · October 2001

Any thoughts on the 1997 C280? I found on with 3400 miles in mint condition and is starmarked for 1 yr/100,000miles and there asking 25,500. The dealer said this is the last year MB put the inline 6 cylinder in the C280, is this true? Any opinions on this would be appreciated.

Thanks

highrise_condo · October 2001

I just took delivery of my C240 last Thursday evening and on Friday it starting making a loud beating noise from the rear. I went to the dealer immediately (Park Place in Dallas) and the service tech recognized to noise as I drove up. He said that part of the axle had broken and it would be four or five days to get it fixed. He also said that another C240 that was on the same shipment as mine had come in with the same problem that day. The car only has 43 miles on it. Has anyone else had this problem? As a first time MB owner, I'm now worried about quality/reliability of this car. Any thoughts?

jrct9454 · October 2001

Oyee: Yes, that was the last year for the I-6. No, that is not a particular advantage; those engines have had a spate of head sealing problems, and in no way are more desirable than the new generation of v6s. The car itself sounds like a reasonable buy, but overpriced by a couple of thousand $, even with the low miles.

Diesels, etc: Yes, we are missing out on the best engines being made right now by both MB and BMW. But it isn't just a CA vs 49 other states problem. A whole host of states have agreed to adopt the CA regulations, clustered in the NE, and MB in particular [there are other manufacturers as well] subscribes to the philosophy that it won't sell anything in the US that can't be sold everywhere.

As a Canadian, only you know why these are not offered as alternatives in Canada...I'm clueless.

There is hope: if the oil companies in the US get off the dime and develop the same low-sulfur or sulfur-free fuel that is [and has been] common in Europe, we should see diesels back in the lineup. It's the crappiness of US fuel that is holding things up.

On ratios: Yeah, they finally realized that the gearing was too tight. It needs to be even longer, but one step at a time. Yes, the EPA numbers have been disappointing, and I'm sure that was behind the move; and brochures were printed well before the '02 EPA testing cycles were complete. And finally, there have often been differences between EU axle ratios and our market, so these are not inconsistencies or mysterious misprints.

And finally, Capt H: There were a spate of fuel sending-unit problems in the recent past, that infected a lot of German cars, not just MB. Sounds like you may have one of the bad guys. Can't remember whether the problem was the float, or the sending unit electronics, or what...sorry...

jrct9454 · October 2001

Nope, that's a new one...

What does it bode for the future? Beats me, but probably not anything good. Every car maker has its occasional batch of bad parts that get in the field and have to be fixed, but I have to confess the list of subsystems that qualify as potential problems on this car is getting too long for my taste. I keep hoping things will settle down...not yet, apparently.

mga3 · October 2001

Highrise,
I am curious as to where your car was manufactured? If you get a chance, could you please check the sticker inside the driverside door, to see if it was manufactured in Germany or elsewhere. As this is the first major problem of this kind reported on this board for '01 & '02 C Class.

nanky · October 2001

Had that too earlier in the life on my car. Patience, a couple of washes, and Eimann Fabrik Clear Pearl Instant Detail took care of the smears. Meguairs quick detail should work just as well.

mejita · October 2001

nyca-

My bad tires were Continentals . . . why? Are they lousy, crummy tires and I just missed it on the boards?

Thanks for your help!

jrct9454 · October 2001

...not "lousy, crummy"...just in my opinion the last on the OEM list from MB. I always look for Michelins first, and everything else takes a distant second, and Conti is mostly last.

If it were my car, I would look for an excuse to replace them with MXV4s, but if the dealer already replaced the bad guys for you, best to just wear 'em out.

bjman · October 2001

What is the 'size' of the headlights in a 2001 C320? I have non-xenon stock lights and would like to replace them with the Phillips Visionplus lights. My question is which ones would fit--the H7 or some other type?

Thanks,
BJ

3pointstar · October 2001

I checked with a local Mercedes dealer and they quoted $3400+ for replacing it on an S320. It is a 26 hour job. So whoever said it cost $6000 has got to be joking. Not that it makes things better - money is money. ;-)

nyca · October 2001

I would not rate them #1, based on reviews I have seen in magazines and other reports, but that doesn't mean they are "bad". I agree with those who vote Michelin as #1, I have them on both my cars. I don't know much about Pirelli or Dunlop. When it's time for new tires, I would stay away from Continental. When I bought my VW, I paid the dealer $100 to swap the Contis with another car with Michelins, I wonder if an MB dealer would do the same thing?

highrise_condo · October 2001

I won't get the car back until the end of this week at the earliest, so I can't look at the door plate. I have a card with production/assembly numbers and barcode all over it and the text is in German. But I won't assume it was made in Germany. The service dept called late yesterday and said that two axles have been ordered and both will be put on the car even though only the one on the right has broken (so far). In the meantime I driving an 2001 E320 loaner.

hoppyeng · October 2001

Just changed the low beam bulbs to Vision Plus. They do make a difference. The bulbs are H7 and I got it from the website below for $40, no shipping. They have a sesonal special now -- buy 2 and get 1 free.

http://www.autolamps-online.com/products/orderform.htm

loy · October 2001

I know someone posted this question before, but I wasn't able to find it in the archive.

Can somebody suggest to me what are the good and reliable websites to buy mud-guard for the C class? Clairparts doesn't seem to carry them.

Thank you very much in advance,

Loy

mtroy · October 2001

Someone asked a few days ago what they do for Service A. I just had it done on my C320. THe light came on after 12 months & 12,000 miles. I asked for a list of what would be done; service guy said to see the manual. He also said, what they do is change the oil and the oil filter, check the tire pressure (no rotation), and plug the car's computer into their computer which checks all the systems. And they wash the car. That's it. How did it go, you ask? I took it to Downtown LA MB, and was pleased with their service. I actually got a MB 320 for the day!

mtroy · October 2001

I asked the guy at the service counter what product to use, and he pulled out little thing of Maguires for $8 that says "specially formulated for Mercedes." Is this really different than the regular Maguires that's much less expensive? I've been using something called Betchley-White or something, that works very well, but it works so well, I'm a little concerned that it might damaging the breaks or doing some other kind of damage.

salsaman1 · October 2001

Today,I almost purchased a C320 at dealer invoice. From the previous TownHall messages, I am aware that some C320's are assembled in Brazil.I test drove a Burgundy red/charcoal (Brazil) and a burgundy red/oyster (Germany). The car from Brazil had no noticeable problems. The German assembly had some problems,i.e. a loud noise emanating from below the center speaker and behind the central vents, the lower portion of the driver's seat pivoted while cornering, and the steering wheel seemed noncircular.Both cars had under 20 miles. I think the defects would be addressed before delivery and I would prefer the German assembly, but I prefer the Burgundy/charcoal color scheme. I've heard about potential quality problems, but have others actually experienced more problems? I will be returning to the dealership tomorrow. Comments are greatly appreciated. --steve

mga3 · October 2001

Understand. Let us know when you get a chance.
The E320 must be nice.

dbbarron · October 2001

Salsaman - where did you but at invoice?

c32 · October 2001

I know that many here in the group have experienced this problem. It's apparently a defective valve of some type behind the dash? Does anyone here have more specifics about exactly what it is that needs to be replaced? Since my service manager was not aware of the problem, I would like to give him more information so they know what needs to be done.

mleskovar · October 2001

The sound was resolved on my car by replacing a bracket
that guides the purge valve lines. I've seen other posts where the purge valve itself was replaced as the solution.

rainers · October 2001

This is what I have learned was the problem with me losing the KEY DEPENDENT MEMORY FEATURE. I now have the right numbered keys. I hope this helps anyone out there that has had thier keys (remotes) replaced and lost this feature. Please feel free to print this out and go to your favorite dealer.

Dealer Technical Bulletin 49/01

49/01 – Recalls and service campaigns: When repairing any vehicle, Always check the vehicle Master Inquiry for open campaigns.

49/01-2 Group 80 – models 203,215,and 220, KEY DEPENDENT MEMORY FEATURE: This is to clarify the operation of the key-dependent memory feature. This feature allows memory settings for seat position, steering column adjustment and A/C settings (203 only) to be dependent upon which key is used to unlock or start the vehicle. If enabled by the customer, via the Instrument Cluster (A1) settings used. There are a total of three (3) memory blocks available: one for key #1, one for key #2, and one shared by keys #3 through #8.

When ordering replacement keys for any reason, it is important to note that the only these three memory blocks are available, and the key number ordered will affect the memory blocks available. For example, if key #1 is replaced with key #4, then the first memory block (assigned to key #1) is no longer accessible. Specifically, key #2 will use the second memory block, and Keys #3 and #4 will share the third memory block. The loss of a memory block may lead to customer complaints. Therefore, if the customer wishes to retain the key dependent feature, replace keys #1 & #2 with the same numbered key.

jrct9454 · October 2001

...that's the first sensible explanation we've heard for what's going on. One can criticize the design logic, but at least it's no longer a mystery...

bjman · October 2001

Where can I get access to the technical bulletins??

Thanks,
BJ

newmbfan · October 2001

Just as a confirmation, I took my C240 back to the dealer this AM for Key problems. They had replaced the keys for me about 2 months ago. The service manager called and said that they had ordered the wrong keys last time and that is why the memory seats lost the key settings. He mentioned the same thing about the key slots 1 & 2. I did not even have to show him the posting from last week.

They also determined that they had overfilled the crankcase on the last oil change. New parts are on the way.

bjman · October 2001

Oh well...I knew it had to happen at SOME point. This is what happens when an IDIOT ran a red light and hit me. The car was bought in June 2001 and the crash was about 4 weeks ago. The car had 4500 miles on it. I should be getting it back at the end of this week. Here is a link to my Yahoo photo album...if you guys know of a better way to display pics than using Yahoo, let me know...

http://photos.yahoo.com/bjassin/

BJ

404c · October 2001

Sorry about the crash.

Your photos are interesting, though. It's good to see them putting the car on a proper Celette body bench instead of winging it and yanking and pulling in all directions as most Rube Goldberg bodyshops do. It looks as though the repair will be done very well and in fact the damage does not seem all that bad.

Good luck!

Mike

bjman · October 2001

Oh well...I knew it had to happen at SOME point. This is what happens when an IDIOT ran a red light and hit me. The car was bought in June 2001 and the crash was about 4 weeks ago. The car had 4500 miles on it. I should be getting it back at the end of this week. Here is a link to my Yahoo photo album...if you guys know of a better way to display pics than using Yahoo, let me know...

http://photos.yahoo.com/bjassin/

BJ

jamrock4 · November 2001

Finally took the plunge and placed an order for the C240 desert silver, auto, bose, C1, C2, C3 packages. Please pray that I will end up with a car that is well built and free from problems. Place my order on 10/26 and was told that my car should arrive by the third week in December (just in time for Christmas).

404c · November 2001

is there anyone out there? ....echo...echo...echo...echo

ktan · November 2001

Sorry to see the damage. I had a similar accident in April and my car was in the body shop for 12wks, most of it waiting for parts from Germany.

You are lucky that yours is coming back in 5wks?

How much is the cost of the repair. Mine was $19,000, zero out of my pocket.

michhala · November 2001

Very painful to see your C320 in such condition. I hope you were not injured. What does it take to have an insurance company declare a total loss, I wonder?

Miki

habitat1 · November 2001

BEWARE. I hate to be the bearer of more bad news, but I can tell you from at least three cars experience where I was in an accident within the first 12 months of ownership (all the other guys fault). A REPAIRED CAR IS NEVER THE SAME AS NEW.

I heard the same thing time and time again from friends and colleagues, but it seemed like useless information. What was I to do? Well, a friend who had the same thing happen to his BMW 528 a couple of years ago insisted that the other guys insurance company complete the repairs ($12,000) and then pay the difference for him to trade it in for a brand new car (additional $8,000, since the car was only 4 months old with 3,500 miles). It took a fair amount of persistance, and I think he even paid a small amount for the pre-crash milage, but he prevailed. One thing he used to substantiate his position was the difference in resale value between a car tha is in mint condition and one that has been in a serious accident. IT'S HUGE!, especially for high-end cars like Mercedes and BMW.

I didn't do it on my cars and I always regretted it. Noises popped up, alignment was never exact, paint didn't match perfectly after 2-3 years....

If there is any way you can get a new car out of this DO IT. It's not trying to take advantage of the other guy. It's getting back to what you had before the crash. And there is no way the repairs alone will do it. Trust me, I've learned the hard way.

Good luck.

ceccon · November 2001

I want a Mercedes but you guys are scaring the hell out of me. I am considering a C240 or Lexus es 300. I have ben driving an es for 9 years and really want to change to a MBZ. Yet, all these posts about keys, trunks, transmissions, etc. make one pause.

I note that I haven't seen even one post over at the es 300 post about a problem with a new Lexus.

I don't want to start a debate concerning Lexus v. MBZ. I just want to hear some comforing words from people happy with their cars.

Thanks.

P.S. If you are leasing, could you post the terms of your lease? (payment, residual, etc.)

ktan · November 2001

Body work should be done by the dealer or a dealer recommended shop. Mine came back and you couldn't tell the difference before I had the accident. That's why it cost $19,000. Half was parts cost and the other half labor.

8 years ago I had a Porsche 911 that was hit in the front left wheel and caused $11,000 in body work. Had the car for 7 years after that, drove perfect and the paint matched up even after 7 years! I think it depends on who you send it to.

habitat1 · November 2001

I agree with ktan that "who" does the repairs and their methods have a big impact on the long term quality. However, I also agree that it is the extremely rare exception that the car comes back truly as good as new, especially if there has been even slight frame damage. Perhaps ktan's $12k Porsche damage was mostly cosmetic, but from the pictures it looks like the Mercedes took quite a hit.

I have been fortuante to avoid accidents. However, I had an M6 back in the 80s' that was damaged by acid in an underground parking garage (don't ask - industrial accident). The range of prices I got on the repainting were $2,000 to $9,000. Even though the company responsible paid for the $9,000 job out of pocket, I still had a lot of explaining to do when I sold the car two years later. Guesstimate that I took another $5k+ hit on what I really should have got for the car. I still see the car around occassionally and it looks perfect! The quality of the paint job has proven superb over 13 years later, but the fact that the car had been repainted still "hurt" me on resale.

In this wonderful e-world we live in, every one considering buying a used car can easily find out if it's been in an accident. In my case, I volunteered that my M6 had been repainted, but any good investigator could find evidence from knowing where to look.

Get what's coming to you for compensation on loss of resale value, if you can.

ktan · November 2001

Most expensive new cars are designed to absorb the shock of the accident and protect the driver and passengers. That's why the repairs are so expensive and bodywork so extensive even you rear end someone at 20 mph.

The picture shown is actually typical for any front end C320 body repairs. They drop your engine and strip eveything off before they try to do anything with the frame.

Yes, I agree, it will utimately cost you when you sell your car since the dealer has all the repair records on computer and will definately lower your trade-in or re-sell value.

404c · November 2001

I would not have the slightest concern about the quality of the structural repair being done on the C320 that crashed. As I wrote earlier, the photo shows the bodyshell on a Celette body bench. For those that don't know, the Celette has special attachments that connect to the bodyshell at key structrual points (such as the upper spring mounts, rocker panels, rear suspension, etc.) and the bodyshell's geometric conformity is GUARANTEED if the repaired car lines up in all the right places.

I suspect that any body shop that uses a Celette will also do an amazing job of the cosmetic body repair. So we can put that concern to bed.

However, it is true that with 19K in damage, the used value of the vehicle will be affected, even if there is no objective reason for it. subjectivity is everything I guess. Anyway, if the owner wants to get another new car, that's fine, but I doubt that the long-term owner would see any economic advantage from switching vehicles at this point. So if the car was going to be traded in in 2 or 3 years, by all means get compensated for the loss of used value or get a new one. If not, still go for some additional case compensation, but keep the car in the knowledge that it should be 100% after the repair.

Mike

jrct9454 · November 2001

I've been buying German, including 13 Mercedes, since 1963; I've had at least 15 Toyotas and Honda products [including Acuras] since 1981. Most recent cars are '94 C220, '96 Acura RL, '98 E320, '01 Accord EX V6. Just for background...

So when I say there are no comforting words for you, try not to overreact, and that applies to everyone else, as well. If you want to buy a Mercedes for what it is [solidly built for the long haul, above average ride/handling combo, good brakes, excellent safety record] then do. But you also need to know what it isn't: Japanese.

What that means is that over the life of the car [say 10-15 years and 120-180k miles] you will LIKELY have to spend many more dollars and many more hours at your friendly dealer to keep the car on the road. Again, everybody please remain calm at your keyboards...I'm talking about the statistical probabilities. This doesn't mean you won't find a trouble-free MB that goes the distance without major repairs and attention...it just means you are far more likely to have that happen with Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura. And in the case of the W203 C, it seems to have taken an inordinate amount of time for the initial teething problems to settle down. As a contrast, my '96 RL was number 1350 off the production line as a brand-new design, and was close enough to flawless to qualify for the term.

There are good reasons why, after all these years, the Germans are getting better but still haven't caught up. Most of it has to do with the way the Japanese manage their supplier relationships, and how they jump quickly on supplier problems and COOPERATE to help them solve them quickly. They truly become lifetime partners with many of their subcontractors, and are obsessive about testing and problem-solving. The Germans care, too...they just don't have the same management culture, and at DB in particular, there is also the problem of management being thinned by the twin distractions of Chrysler and Mitsu. Dieter Z. would sure be helping Mercedes a lot more in his old job than the Mission Impossible he has been handed in Detroit.

I keep saying, buy what you want for whatever reasons you want. I love Mercedes and their heritage and engineering culture...but don't look for the kind of ownership experience you will get from Lexus. It is a mistake to go in up front with the wrong colored glasses perched on your nose...you have to be prepared to open your wallet and exercise more patience to be a happy MB owner. If you have both, then plunge ahead...

salsaman1 · November 2001

I declined purchasing the C320 mainly because I prefer the CLK320 (sportier look) or the E320 (larger car). I have shopped several dealers and I am VERY impressed by the professionalism of EuroMotors (and they have best pricing in the DC area). The sales consultant can be reached at Euromotors.com/rwfix. I have gathered alot of useful information from this TownHall, and in return I recommend this salesperson (trying not to sound solicitous, but sincerely believe he will get you the best prices.

mbnut1 · November 2001

Excellent articulation of the whole German vs Japanese thing.

Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans

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