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Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans
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Comments
My experience is perhaps typical with Otto (99 C280) (electrical gremlins mainly: inop sound system, 3xblown instrument lights, 1xblown taillight, finicky operating sunroof control, and one semi-serious engine problem in which a pulley at the front of the engine shed a rather important looking piece of rubber causing an unscheduled trip to the service dept.) Otherwise my W202 is still pretty much as solid as a rock, quiet, smooth, powerful...just wish it had a 6 speed:)
cu...rich
Living in Toronto,this is an option that would be of interest to me. My concern is that 168 hp isjust not going to be adequate given that the 4-matic will be at least 200 lbs or so heavier than the non awd version. The C320 would be perfect but the cost is getting a little high with that engine. Does anyone have any thoughts on this car with this new option?
As for the performance of the 2.6 engine with 4-matic, I know for a fact it would be quite good enough for me, but everyone has different tastes in these matters. Our '02 C240 sedan has only 1800 miles on it, so it is still not making all the power it will eventually, and I find it entertaining to drive and fun on onramps. Everyone wants more hp, and I would never kick it out of bed, but it is not necessary to keep this car from being both safe and fun, and that would be just as true with the extra poundage that the AWD hardware represents.
Having said that, I wouldn't be shocked to see more hp as part of the '04 facelift in the entry-level engine, either with internal changes or by bumping the displacement to 2.8. The new 4-valve heads are coming, and they alone will make a small positive difference to all of the engines, though the focus there is on emissions and fuel consumption more than raw power.
Personally, I think the current obsession with increasing hp in the NA market has gone more than far enough, but no one asked me and don't expect them to anytime soon...
A reputable independent mechanic or your Mercedes dealer should allow you to avoid this problem in the future.
No, MB has no special problems with rotors warping. In fact, it is the Japanese brands [Honda and Toyota] who often suffer from this syndrome more often than the EU cars.
Warpage is usually caused [as noted above] by one of two things: improper torquing of the wheel bolts, or hitting the rotors with cold water when they are hot and not turning. This causes the area of the disc still under the pads to cool at a different rate than the rest of the disc. If you take it to a car wash, make sure the brakes have at at least a few minutes to cool down after a run on the freeway.
To tell the truth I don't like the brakes of MB at the very begining. It is hard to press, not sensitive and generate a lot of dust.
Interior/features - Generally better. I thought that both cars fit and finish the equal to the 202 C class. I saw no flaws or blems in the interior. I noticed small improvements like the detents on the air deflectors, the rear seat a/c outlets, the centre storage console being much better designed. I was not sure about the cup holder, the design seemed pretty cool with the flip over effect; not sure how that would hold up. Liked the bigger glove box, also that it was dual level. I personally thought the switch gear was at least as "solid" feeling as on my car; in particular, the light switch for me represents a good example: in my car there's a good solid "clunk" when turning on the lights, I found the same on the 203 C. Back seat was about the same, still pretty tight back there and in fact I thought it was a little harder to get out of actually. I like the two wipers, and the intermittent sweep. (The one wiper on Otto works ok (now) because I had to finally get a Bosch aftermarket "Micro Edge" blade to stop by the bloody thing chattering...highly recommended)
Closing the door on the C320 and setting off I thought the ride and quiet was at least as solid as on the 202 C. I thought the shift gate was MUCH smoother to actuate from P to N to D than the mechanical gate in my car. I did not get a chance to operate the - and + buttons (but would be curious if any current 203 owners could post how well this works?)
Steering and handling/braking equal to, actually better than 202 C. Steering in particular with the (speed sensitive?) rack and pinion was much better, gone was the slightly numb feeling with my 202 C. Lots of road feel, but never a feeling of roughness. Mind you it was not in the same class as my Mini Cooper S, but pretty good actually.
(as an aside I thought the actual surface of the steering wheel was pretty nice to touch; just slightly rough enough to get a grip on (had left my stringbacks at home:). Don't know if this would wear off leaving a smoother surface in time...)
Ok...time to boot it...way cool! This has much more "ooomph" than my C280, esp at overtaking speeds from 40-50 ish, kickdown seems "snappier" and throttle response much quicker. New algorithm perhaps? New software algorithm maybe? Or just 30 more horsepower (my money's on the ponies:)
So, in sum: this car seems to me its every bit a Mercedes, build quality and ride top notch, has everything I would be looking for: smooth, powerful, quiet, fast....
Ok, enough of that, jumped into the C240 "stripper" (if you can describe a 33K car as a stripper.) There was just the one on the dealer lot, buried back in the new car get ready area. Mentally look for power seat adjuster, discover the rather quaint knobs and levers to mandraulically adjust seat (just like the old days.) Dip clutch, engage first, discover the biting point is a bit higher off the floor than expected. Jerk a bit taking off. First gear seems like it has no torque after the car is under way, I was shifting into second very quickly. Pull out into traffic and merge. Downshift 4/3 and pull around Minivan, seems to pull strongly in the mid ranges (3/4/5). I was only going max of 50 throughout this (speed limit was 50 anyway) evolution so did not see if it ran out of puff at higher speed. Seemed like it was a tick off the 3.2L car, but hard to tell since I was running it through gears to check shifting. I could barely see the tacho but I shift on the engine sound anyway so this was not a big problem. Actually at the end of the test drive I was glancing at the tacho and saw it good enough to judge where the engine was (mind you I was nowwhere near the redline)
Gearchange seemed solid enough; I had to realise to hold the gate spring going from 5 to 6 (just took one inadvertent downshift from 5 to 4 to realise (again) it was a six speed.) After 15 minutes I was shifting reasonably smoothly, but was still feeling near the top of the take-up some judder in the driveline (I suspect this was actually just exposing my weak left leg after 4 years of languishing with my panty-waist automatic:) I did not notice any particular notchiness, certainly it was not like the action of a bolt action rifle that's for sure. If anything it seemed to me the position of the shift lever was too far to the side and rear of the car for my taste. Another comment would be that the shift gate distance (i.e. from 2nd to 3rd) was larger than perhaps I would have expected.
Sum up on C240 with 6 speed: Need more time to get used to clutch, more fun (but more work in stop and go) than autobox; seems powerful enough (yet, could any real enthusiast say "no" to a C320 with a 6 speed)
So, having read any of these ramblings, could anyone comment on the following:
o How closely does the W203 automatic match a manual gearbox with the "-" and the "+" controls? Do they allow you to down/up shift and hold gears at will? Or do they just delay upshift or what? Can you approach a bend and tap once, twice to downshift and, having put the car into the right gear, then accelerate through and out of the corner? (i.e. like the saying goes, slow in, fast out)
o Anyone who drives a 6 speed: does your clutch take up/bite near the floor, mid-travel, or upper end of the travel? Has this changed over the period that you've driven it? Do you find it difficult/normal to have a slight judder in take up near the top of the engagement? (And a quick related question is this a hydraulicly connected clutch i.e. does the clutch pedal connect to the clutch master cylinder to clutch slave cylinder via hydraulics or cables?)
Thanks all, in advance, for any thoughts. I was mighty impressed with both cars, each in their own ways. I'm hoping my portfolio recovers at some point in '03 to be able to get one of these!
take care...rj
Well we have a 2002 C 230 Kompressor with the 6 speed. The car has the regular 16 inch wheels, hence does not have the so-called "short-shift" kit fitted to the Evolution (C7 in USA) Sportcoupés. Our car's shifter is VERY nice, precise, clean movements. The clutch takes up near the middle of the travel and is beautifully weighted. We never feel the slightest bit of driveline judder during engagements. The W 203 clutch actuation is hydraulic.
I have driven some automatic C Classes and I do not like the tip-shift function at all. It's counter-intuitive. Every other tip-shift automatic I've seen/driven has a sequential gearbox-type shift protocol, i.e. lever forward to gear up and lever rearwards to gear down. The side-to-side movement of the M-B automatics in tip-shift mode is plain silly. In fact, steering wheel paddles would be the way to go. However, 99% of people buying an automatic Benz let the gearbox do the shifting for them. If you enjoy shifting, get the manual.
The old 2.3 L 192 HP engine is extremely torquey and has way more grunt than the C 240. It's also very economical when driven gently in 6th. The 1.8 L 2003 model is very nearly as powerful and 7% more economical than its predecessor. But if you don't like the hatch body then you're forced into the less economical V-6 engines.
And watch for that 6th to 3rd downshift ;-)
It is worth noting that Mercedes-Benz itself uses the forward/aft lever movement for up/downshifts in its cars equipped with the Sequentronic 6 speed sequential manual.
Some other D-C products are similar - like the smart car, whose 6-speed sequential manual -again- uses the same forward-aft shifter movement.
Don't be gentle. Give it to me straight!
Thanks!
[We use this same concept for house repairs, health costs, etc.]
For a '98 C with a 4 cyl engine, you're talking about a relatively mature design across the board, and the least complex in the line. If you can afford to put aside $1800-$2000 a year to cover the big things that can happen down the road, you can enjoy this car. If not, not...
From the way you describe it, it has to be an aerodynamic noise. I would suspect some of the plastic cladding on the underbody - it might be missing a clip, catching some air and flapping in the wind. It could also be a missing grommet or damaged weather seal, again giving rise to a high frequency aerodynamic noise. For the underbody, you could have the undertray removed and drive the car - no noise, you've found the problem.
I've been seesawing between a used W210 chassis and W203 preferably a C320. Having a hard time zeroing in on which one. I think that I would prefer to drive the C320 but the W210 chassis has such classic Mercedes beauty and presence.
About the HUGE clock in the instrument panel, this is copied from.....Mercedes of old, check out the various 1980s and early 1990s models.
So what exactly made you lose interest in your C 320? Could you be specific?
Indeed my comparison between my own C280 for 39K and an afternoon with a C320/auto and C240/6 speed convince me exactly the opposite; that MB has put a lot of improvements in the new C that make it a completely different and better car:
When I got back into my C280, I was struck by how "agricultural" feeling the car was compared with the newer model.
Specifically, and to wit:
o lost motion in the shift lever - in the C280 there is a distinct play in the lever action from P to N to D, in the new C the lever slides smoothly into the D-+ position
o steering - in the C280, you turn the wheel first, then the car turns, in the new C the steering is much quicker and more responsive
o handling - pretty much the same although I suspect the fatter tyres on new C (interesting they are exactly the same size as the "sport" size on the C280) would yield higher skidpad numbers
o noise vibration harshness - felt much improved in new C compared with C280
o throttle response - in the C280 there is a distinct lag in neutral from depressing the throttle to the RPM pickup - this is much quicker in the new C
...and of course the ever popular "door shut" test -- all three examples of New C I saw (two driving and one in showroom) all shut with a satisfying "clunk" -- no tinnyness, wobble, shake or vibration felt at all.
rich
Any ideas from anyone before I sell the 2001 C320 and go back to BMW? The odor is not strong enough to attract much attention from the service managers, but enough to cause eye irritation and a funny taste in one mouth after 3-4 hours. A sad situation for a 40K automobile!
The display on my car tells me it's time for the A Service in 30 days. I guess the system must be set to 10,000 miles or 2 years whichever comes first. :-) I think I'm up to about 8700 miles. I will have had the car 2 years at the beginning of February. I don't have the textbook handy, does anyone know off the top of their head what the A service entails?
And, also, the free service seems include nothing, except inspections. I think the dealership is waiting us to pay big bucks after the 4yr/50000mile.
=================================
#5782 of 5844 First Service by jrct9454 Nov 09, 2002 (06:48 pm)
If you have waited 10,000 miles to have the tires rotated the first time, you've probably already gone too long. Now they have a "set" to the belts, and you run the risk of vibrations and noise. Could be OK, depending on which tires the car has [Michelins are less prone to these problems than Pirellis or Continentals], or not...
Just be prepared: make sure the car feels right before driving too far from the dealership. This is also a discussion we've had before, most recently on one of the other C-Class boards. Tires that go much beyond 5k-7.5k miles are at risk for problems if you try to rotate them; this is one reason MB no longer wants to pay for it...BMW has dropped it from their service recommendations altogether, because they know that waiting for the first service is too long.
I do all our tire rotations myself in the garage at 3000 mile intervals...many tire stores will do it for you for a minimal or even no charge, but make sure they use the correct bolt torque and use a real hand torque wrench, not a gun, to tighten the bolts.
And yes, if you rotate at 5k miles, you aren't going to see the symptoms I've described. That's precisely the point.
If you've gone a long time before the first rotation, it doesn't hurt to try a back-front rotation [keeping them rotating in the same direction], but any attempt to move them to the opposite side of the car will be doomed to failure [vibrations and general lumpiness]. Just be prepared for the fact that they may not feel right.
I don't want to get into a long tutorial about radial tire construction and why it is disfunctional to go a long time between rotations. If you have successfully rotated tires to positions that reverse their direction of travel after, say, 15k miles and have had no problems, I'd like to hear about it. My experience is that you either do it early and often, or forget it. At 22000 miles, forgetting it seems like the best strategy.
The dealer is not the only one responsible for making sensible decisions about the car's maintenance. I regard their responsibilities these days as mostly maximizing their revenue, and keeping MBUSA out of trouble - nobody is looking out for my interests but me.
Incidentally, I too have been pleasantly surprised by the behavior of the Continental CH95s on our '02 C240. On previous MBs, I have had to ditch Contis in favor of Michelins early on, usually due to excessive flat-spotting and subsequent vibrations, but these seem much more resistant to that behavior and have been very satisfactory so far. Fingers crossed...
Start with the FSS display on the current mileage/total
mileage, Insert key and rotate to position 1.
Push and hold the odometer reset/dash lighting level button
(left side of cluster) for about 20-40 seconds. You will hear a
beep.
The diagnostic screen will come on. You will see a
bunch of numbers/engine type/etc...oil level will read -.- qts.
Rotate key to position 2 and you will see the level of the oil
come on after it measures it.
center also. Right under the radio the empty
compartment that I guess would be used for a CD
or cassette player. It buzzes. I thought it might
be loose change in the ashtray but it's not. If I
put my hand in the compartment and hold it down
the buzzing stops. The drivers window buzzes also
up near the top. Other annoying noises are the
seat belt holders that rattle in the car.
The C36 might be more of a collector's car as it has the old I6 design that MB's latest generation of V6s made obsolete. The standard 430 engine has been great in our ML and it still is used to power the S-Class for '03. The 430 is in a lot of older CLK's so you probably can get some good feedback about it on that group. The AMG version of it in the C43 apparently had taller cams and some work on the intake runners and exhaust system to boost the engine's power without having to raise the engine's compression
I'm a ways away from another test drive, and am getting itchy about finding out exactly how the - and + selection controls works on the autobox. I've had a look for an online C Class owner's manual but haven't had any luck.
Ok: I can understand if you're in Drive, the autobox will shift itself, no problem there obviously.
Question comes up in a few different situations. So say if you're at rest, then the transmission must be pre-selected to 1st gear, right? How can I hold shifts in each gear in turn whilst accelerating? If you're stationary (say at a light), do you select '-' to engage "manual" mode, then each time you want to upshift do you select '+'? And will the gear hold in the selected slot irrespective of RPM?
Next situation: in town traffic, going 35-45 or so, say in 4th gear, and want to overtake smartly. What happens if you select '-'? Will it downshift to 3rd, or just engage "manual" mode such that the NEXT time you select '-' it will downshift? Or does the downshift occur right away?
Ok, last situation: approaching a bend in 5th, can you just tap '-' twice and will transmission downshift to 4th and to 3rd allowing you to engine brake, negotiate turn, and then can you then tap '+' twice on exit from the corner into 5th, delaying as long as you like in order to allow more RPM to build? When does the transmission "revert" back to automatic mode such that it shifts itself? When I pull up to a light and stop?
I'm trying to make a case for which suits my driving style, the 6 speed or the auto. My current car (99 C280) can only shift via the J gate. I'm wondering if the '-' and '+' are in fact just the same thing via sw controls or something fundamentally different...
thanks all, appreciate any info on how this thing works...rich
"I'm wondering if the '-' and '+' are in fact just the same thing via sw controls or something fundamentally different..."
As the previous owner of a '95 C220 gate and now '00 C230 with +/-, I've found the +/- to be about the same thing, changing gears when you press the lever left (-) or right (+) respectively. The car will always start from a stop in 1st gear and hold it if you select 1, and otherwise change gears normally until it reaches the highest number you have selected (2, 3, 4 or D).
There seems to be no "manual vs. automatic mode" to which you allude in your questions. If you leave the car in whatever gear is displayed, it seems to hold that gear until you press + or -.
I am not as adventurous as some, so as to minimize wear on the transmission. As such, I hope others who have experimented more will post their findings following this message.
- Paul