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Acura TL vs Honda Accord

pocahontaspocahontas Member Posts: 802
...to discuss the Acura 2.3 TL Vs the Honda Accord
EX V6. Below is a link to a previous discussion:

Part I - Acura 3.2 TL vs 2001 Honda Accord EX V6.

Happy Motoring. ;-)

Pocahontas,
Edmunds.com/Roving Host
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Comments

  • keyrowkeyrow Member Posts: 214
    If comparing VERY similar vehicles is absurd then I gladly assume the title. I am currently shopping for a new car and have narrowed my choices down to three: Accord EX V6, Acura TL and Infiniti I30. Yes, some will say these are totally different vehicles; to me they are not. Of course there are differences. But to me the Acura TL IS an "Accord Deluxe" just as a Lexus ES300 is essentially a "Camry Deluxe" and as such I am not certain it is worth the price difference. This is not a flame against those who believe the differences are worth the price premium. IMHO, if I decide to spend 28-30k for a car the I30 is superior to the TL. FOR ME alone, I am just not certain the "luxuries" are worth it.
  • mike_542mike_542 Member Posts: 128
    If features made the car, I would definately get the Acura TL. Unfortunately, this is not true and the Honda Accord beats the TL in drivability. For example, the Accord's rear seat is much more comfortable and it's 3 liter engine is much smoother than the Acura.
  • ftm1ftm1 Member Posts: 21
    To respond to (rvd2) the rear seat LEG&HEAD space in the TL
    is smaller than in Accord sedan.Here are some specs in inches for the 3.2TL & Accord sedan REAR LEG ROOM in the Accord is 30.0in compared to 27.0in for the TL/ The REAR SHOULDER ROOM in TL is slightly more than Accord 55.0in TL 54.5in Accord/The REAR HEAD ROOM is more in the Accord 2.5in to 2.0in TL/ NOW to the FRONT Accord FRONT SHOULDER ROOM 56.5in TL 56.0in FRONT LEG ROOM is the same for Accord & TL at 40.5in The FRONT HEAD ROOM is slightly more for the TL at 2.5in to 2.0 on the Accord.The rear seat in the TL does not fold down & the seat is also more padded & comfortable in the TL. This also has something to do with the body structure of the TL being stronger than Accord.I still will remind people that the 99TL had a price drop of $4,000 form the 98 model.That was a different car but the current TL is a much better car.What Acura did is to make the TL a better value than other upscale cars.To do this they used the Accord platform & Acura &Honda share many components not parts.The Accord is a great family sedan thats what it is.The TL is a upscale/nearluxury sedan what that delivers is better refinement & performace with added luxury.In all the reviews that I have read none have said the TL was a dressed up Accord, they have said somepeople think so. I have seen many that have said that Lexus ES300 &Toyota Camry are more alike also that the Infiniti I30 & Nissan Maxima are essientially the same but I30 has more sound deadning material& a more plush interior.I got my 2000 TL for the all the things the Accord could not offer.
  • carguy62carguy62 Member Posts: 545
    "I got my 2000 TL for the all the things the Accord could notoffer."

    ...and you paid for it.

    I feel honored that the Accord is compared to vehicles that costs thousands of dollars more, and that I was smart enough not to spend thousands of dollars more for my transportation.
  • prov1632prov1632 Member Posts: 10
    For what it's worth, in our recent purchase of a TL we compared the Accord EX V6 to the TL. Of course there were other cars in the comparison (Camry, Taurus), but the choice came down to these two. Even with a list of what each had, it got very confusing. As a last comparison (and to help the dealer come down a few $ :) we drove the Honda EX V6 to the Acura dealer and asked him to put the TL beside the Honda. Then we moved from car to car comparing how each felt, equipment in each, etc. Bottom line we chose the TL. Here's differences I see:

    Accord
    Less expensive (about $3800 in prices I had)
    Regular fuel

    TL
    More comfortable seats - the bottom seat cushion felt larger front to back
    Heated front seats
    BOSE 180 watt stereo w 5 speakers vice 4 on Accord
    16 inch wheels w larger tires vs 15s on Accord
    Outdoor temp display in dash
    High intensity headlights
    Traction control & 4 wheel anti-lock brakes
    4 year warranty vs 3 on Accord
    Alarm system
    2 power points with one hidden in the console
    Extra 25 horsepower
    5 speed transmission vs 4 on Accord
    Style different - fewer on road
  • wenyuewenyue Member Posts: 558
    Accord EX V6 had traction control.

    Also, I think it also has 4 wheel anti-lock brakes.

    I seem to recall that EX V6 has an security system as well.

    Also, doesn't the TL has a single CD player, while the Accord EX has a in-dash 6-CD changer? I thought it's weird that the Accord EX has a better CD player than the TL.
  • ftm1ftm1 Member Posts: 21
    I got this car & did pay more why not for what it has. Since people like (carguy62)say the TL is a dressed up Accord or why pay more. Then why did you get the Accord EX V6 instead of the LX V6?
    I still go back to what the Accord & TL markets are Accord is Family sedan 3.2 TL is Upscale/Near Luxury sedan. If you think the TL is a dressed up Accord then think so.Thats the only reason I compare the two cars.The cost was not that important to me for what I got.The extra features alone like I said the Accord did not have at the time or still does not have.I have to slighty compare the features of my car a 2000TL with the 2000 & 2001 Accord because 2000 Accord did not have traction control system this is a safety feature.Another safety feature the TL has is HID lights that Accord still does not have & to retro fit with the real thing would cost way over $1000
    Somepeople think the fake bulbs are the real thing not true.The extra 25HP is not a bad thing this car is pretty quick & powerful.This is another point to (carguy62) why pay the extra money for the EX V6 Accord over 4cyl Accord I guess you wanted more HP.The 16" wheels you could go aftermarket but you still have to pay.The same with stereo but you still have to pay. The heated seats are a nice feature they warm you up quick. If you have a bad back like I do you can use the heat while driving at anytime.The TL seats are more comfortable than Accord. I got this car & plan to keep it for 5 or 6yrs.I also got the TL because Accord at time did not have side airbags.
    The 5speed Automatic tranny is smooth this seems to be what luxury auto makers are going to.The Accord has its 4sp TL 5sp with sport-shift.Even one of the Accords major rivals & what some say is the new family car king VW Passat has 5sp auto as option.I do my homework when I purchase a car thats why I have been driving Honda cars for the last 20yrs. I have not picked wrong yet with a 90&94 Accord & an 80 Prelude back when American auto makers were selling people junk & I kept the Prelude around for 15yrs until I sold it.All reviews say same thing about TL competitively priced/ best buy/ best in class world beater for years to come/ impressive overall performance/sensible choice the only low points for the car are its stock tires & styling thats why I put on a factory body kit & spoiler.
  • ftm1ftm1 Member Posts: 21
    To respond to your post (wenyue) yes the 2001 Accord does offer traction control now but when I got my 2000TL last year 2000 Accord did not have it or sideairbags. Like I said I was going to get the Accord EX V6 back in 98 or 99 but I just had paid off my 94 Accord EX 5sp. I then saw a concept picture of the redesigned TL & what features it might come with.This was one thing that took me away from Accord.I also remember that when the Honda saleperson called me about buying another Accord from them I told him I was getting a TL.I told him TL has more of the stuff I was looking for.I said TL has traction control Accord does not.His response to that was you don't need it with the Accord I see they put it on.This is a safety feature & with the TL you need it also because of the powerful engine. I have not taken a look inside a 2001 Accord but because the TL was just redesigned back on the 99 model & Accord had design from 98 model.The Accord was freshend up abit inside.Acura would probaly have to change the dash design of TL to put indash cd changer.Acura gave the 2000TL alot last year form the 99 newly redesiged model we got the 5sp auto tran along with changes to the engine to give improvement in midrange accerlation.This also made the car quicker & gave it an extra gal on highway mileage.They also gave us new DVD NAV SYSTEM as option over 99cd rom.The only change for the 2001TL I think is that inside safety trunk release thing. Since the TL has only three ways to open the trunk.This is with remote on key fob/inside trunk release by drives seat & by going back to the lockable pass thru & pulling a wire.TL do not have a key hole on the trunk.The factory alarm is a real joke this goes for the Accord also.I had a real alarm put in the car the day after I got it.My alarm has many features like digital wheel sensors & anticarjacking.
  • howardhondahowardhonda Member Posts: 3
    I bot 2000 Accord 4 cyl with 5 speed manual trans last December. I feel that I have the best of both worlds: the economy of honda maint. & 4 cyl at one extreme and the "near luxury" at the other. After all the TL and the accord are made by the same mfg, with the same styling and design. Even the dash controls are layed out in a similar fashion. The TL is a little more luxurious and heavier with the 6 cyl. but I'm happy with the better gas mileage and the fuel efficiency of the 5 speed manual trans.
  • jak11jak11 Member Posts: 1
    There is a "pop" under the hood when starting my TL3.2. Does anyone else have this?
  • ftm1ftm1 Member Posts: 21
    To respond to jak11 question about noise under hood when starting 3.2TL I have had this happen also on my 2000TL. I am a member of another Acura TL forum & several members report same problem.
    We have associated with the hydralic engine mounts I also notice it only form cold overnight start ups. I will have had the car a year at the end of this month.I noticed this more during winter months or early spring when its still cold in mourning.Some have also said to turn off auto climate control when its cold before start up in winter.The sound some have side sounds like a thump or pop.I say a thump or knock sound whatever I just turn off the auto mode at start up when winter time I do not seem to notice it.
    Most of the guys on the Acura TL forum are good when it comes to stuff like this because we all have the same car. So try to turn off the auto climate mode at first mourning start up. I forgot to ask do you have Nav System or Non Nav & what temps have you had when this problem happens.
    Please let me know.
  • mas4mas4 Member Posts: 1
    Would like information on retofitting seat heaters to Honda Accord EX-V6 (1998). Source for kit or components?
  • markz2kmarkz2k Member Posts: 112
    Ftm1:

    Minor correction to your post. The '00 Accord EXV6 does have side Airbags. I bought one in June. Didn't even test-drive the CL/TL cause I knew I'd want one. My sister will be getting one (CL) this month, soon as we find a decent deal.
  • robnisrobnis Member Posts: 78
    You fans of the TL will be glad to hear this, taken from the Acura news release on the 2002 TL:

    "The 3.2 TL builds on its position as the best-selling luxury sedan in the U.S. with a host of enhancements for the 2002 model year including a new, high-performance Type S model boasting 260 horsepower -- the highest output of any vehicle in its class.

    All 3.2 TL models receive a number of styling changes for 2002 including new front end styling with a more aggressive front grille, reshaped headlights and a cleaner, more integrated taillight treatment. An Acura/Bose music system with 6-disc in-dash CD player is standard on all 2002 TL models.

    Additional enhancements to the Type S include the adoption of Acura's Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) system, larger 215/50R 17-inch tires, a unique alloy wheel design, metallic-face instrument panel, perforated leather seats and steering wheel, and Type S shift knob. Numerous suspension refinements further enhance the Type S model's sporty character.

    Additional details on the 2002 3.2 TL and 3.2 TL Type S will be announced on Monday, January 8, at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit."

    Sounds great to me!
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    Basically a CL-S with 2 extra doors.
  • rbacsafrarbacsafra Member Posts: 85
    A dream come true! Before this press release..the rumor was there were undercover prototype Type S being tested in Texas. These regular looking TL's had the 260HP Type S motor in it but was running around Texas for endurance runs and etc. Good job for Acura! I'd take the TL Type S over the CL Type S! =)
  • sgbowlsgbowl Member Posts: 1
    Hi all in the NYC area, whats a good price for the Acura TL, what is it selling for?
  • tonylexustonylexus Member Posts: 94
    My choice boiled down to Accord EX V6 & TL. Could not justiy the extra $thousands for the TL, just not enough difference. Especially when considering the cost of ownership, premium vs regular fuel & lower insurance rates. Only thing not on EX vs TL is heated seats, ride seems better in EX for around town, CD changer is EX plus. TL is definately a great car but I'm going with the EX. Can use the extra 4 grand for a nice vacation.
  • tomsrtomsr Member Posts: 325
    My wife wants a TL but being a cheapskate I think
    an EX would do.We presently have a 98 CL which
    has been impressive especially the dealer service.
    I noticed one thing since I have a lead foot it is
    way too easy to speed even with a 2.3 liter.If I
    had a 3.2 liter with very quiet cabin would I
    risk tickets.The answer is probably.The longer warranty and classier service lean me toward the TL.Oh what to do!
  • cromanellicromanelli Member Posts: 1
    I also am considering TL. Thinking about leasing new v buying 2 yo. Considering leasing because used prices are pretty high. Also considering usual suspects, Camry, Maxima. Leaning toward TL for purely aesthetic reasons. Any thoughts?
  • maryg2maryg2 Member Posts: 33
    Hope you didn't buy your EX or TL yet, as interest rates just went down!

    I got an EX-6 last week, and I love it. Feels great, much improved over the '96 LX I was driving. However, I did pop into a couple of Acura showrooms and was blown away by the TL and CL. They just seemed so much more luxurious. Since the EX was a stretch for me, I could not afford the extra $4,000 for an Acura. However, if it won't mean going into hock, and you love the TL, I'd go for it. It just isn't worth doing without anything really important, like food, rent, or the kids' education.
  • gpsabagpsaba Member Posts: 2
    I noticed that the oil recommended for the new Honda is 5-20W. Is this also recommended for the Acura? Would it hurt to use the more available 5-30W oil?
    By the way, the arguments between the Acura and Honda are pretty much the same as the Infinity QX4 and the Pathfinder. They all are great cars and all offer features that slightly separate them but be glad that they are what they are which are great reliable cars.
  • srini88srini88 Member Posts: 1
    Hi
    Whats a good price for the Acura 3.2 TL, have any of you bought one in dallas/austin area?

    Thanks
  • ineto6ineto6 Member Posts: 161
    Yes, I thought that the 99CL was an overpriced accord coupe, but I would not say the same thing about the 2001 CL. You have to see how much contents/features that you are getting for the car that you want. I am happy with my purchase and I can afford without breaking into my savings so I'd be singing praises about my car when and if it misbehaves :)

    Thank god that it takes all kinds of people so that we all don't drive the same boring cars!!!
  • sstechsstech Member Posts: 5
    I am wondering whether any Honda Accord owners installed DVD-based Navigation System. The only reason I am leaning towards Acura 3.2 TL is for the navigation system. If I can get a navigation system from any source, I would like to buy Accord Ex6 instead of Acura 3.2TL.

    Thanks in advance for your help.
  • jay102jay102 Member Posts: 2
    I realize that this area is posted most frequently by Honda Lovers, but I have a question that is posted on other sites also and I am interested in your thoughts.

    We will be purchasing a new car for my wife soon, and have currently narrowed it down to a Maxima, EXV6 Accord, or V6 Carry. You guys tell me why I should pick the Accord.

    Thanks for any information...
  • filmlabratfilmlabrat Member Posts: 13
    Jay, I understand you own a Nissan, so please know that I offer the following with your best interests in mind.

    Several years ago, I was involved in making sales training films for Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc.

    I was attending a gathering of the top 100 Toyota dealers in the US. The speaker was the President of TMS, USA, Inc. He said, "We are number one. We are number one because: Volkswagen can't get their labor costs in line, because Nissan can't build a quality product, and because Honda can't build them fast enough."

    Things in this business change rapidly but I think this is still a good insight.
  • prov1632prov1632 Member Posts: 10
    The only significant difference I saw in the Maxima, Camry and Honda EXV6 was that the Honda uses regular fuel. So, you save $150-200 per year in fuel costs. However, what it comes down to is how you feel about the car handling and comfort. I didn't like the handling of the Maxima - it just wasn't what I was used to I guess. The Camry has the mechanism for cruise control mounted to the steering wheel right where I normally hold my right hand, so on the test drive I kept hitting my knuckles.

    All are great cars so don't think you could go wrong. Our 2 choices came down to Honda or Acura TL - and bought the TL. Yes, we use premium fuel, but we thought the front seats were a little more comfortable, and heated. You also see lots less on the road, so you don't look like a caravan going down the interstate. :)
  • ineto6ineto6 Member Posts: 161
    If I were you, I'd ask the wife first what she thinks about the stylings of those cars :) You might want to wait for the Maxima to come out witht the 3.5 engine.. if you can afford to wait. My brother sold his 98 Camry because he thought the paint really sux... my family has good lucks with Maximas... errrr, just transmissions problems with the older engine/transmission. So I suppose an Accord would be a good choice since it is reliable, high resale value, decent performance.

    But for this topic, I'd pick the 3.2TL over the Accord for both looks and performance.... service (I don't mind paying for good service.... kinda like some people would buy only Dell computers for their services... hahaha)
  • blexv6blexv6 Member Posts: 9
    Regarding the popping noise on the TL. I have a 1998 EXV6 and I believe this noise is the A/C coming on VIA the automatic climate control.These cars are somewhat similar, built at the same plant and use many common parts and platform.
  • ftm1ftm1 Member Posts: 21
    I agree with blexv6 about the climate control system. I have a 2000TL Navi purchased 12/28/99.
    When I got the car last winter I was not that familiar with the climate system of this car. I would have the system in auto mode most of the time.I would crank up the car & hear a pop noise from under the hood.This sound was not heard when the weather became warmer. This winter I keep the system in manual & Temp set to 80 fan speed on 1or2 A/C is off. The sound has not been heard this winter at all. The Accord & TL share many parts & the platform is the same.Somepeople say its an overpriced Accord but I don't think so.
    The TL has different sheetmetal & there are many other not seen things that make them differ.The cars also differ in the thing that many people forget.The thing that many forget is Accord EX V6 4DR is family sedan/ 3.2 TL is Entry Level Luxury Sedan.
  • slesssless Member Posts: 10
    I'm ready to down size from a Toyota Sienna to either a Toyota Camry, Acura 3.2TL or Lexus ES300. My wants are simple: a car that is reliable, comfortable, quiet and has good resale value. These three seem to fit the bill. I'm leaning towards the Lexus, but would like further input. I really wish these vehicles had exciting, unique appearances, but they are all about the same.
  • ineto6ineto6 Member Posts: 161
    Since your wants for a new car are simple then I would suggest you get the Camry, but that's not what this topic is about. Sure, you would get a better resale for a Camry or Accord than a TL or an ES300. It's just a matter of depreciation of most cars. You might be selecting between those three cars for other intangibles. You can be sure that some people will say that the Lexus is an overpackaged Camry, but it is nicely packaged. Depending on how much enjoyable a driving experience that you want, then a Lexus would be better over a Camry. I'd have a tough time choosing between a Lexus and the Acura. You'd get better value with the Acura, but I think that you should give yourself nice long test drives on both cars before you decide to negotiate.... happy buying :)
  • wenyuewenyue Member Posts: 558
    I would wait for 6 months if you are not too much in a hurry to get a new car.

    Camry/Accord/TL/ES300 are all tried and true, none are bad cars, and one point or the other were the bench marks for the other.

    But 2 of your choices are being redesigned at this very moment. Camry and Lexus ES300 are under going a total redesign, both are due out late this summer.

    If you are willing to wait until more 6 months, you have little more of an option, not to mention more bargain room.
  • edwardsa1edwardsa1 Member Posts: 34
    I would be curious to hear what TL owners have to say about the overall fit and finish and build quality of their cars. I just traded in my '98 Accord V-6 EX and was consistently disappointed by its mediocre quality compared to every other Honda I have ever driven (including my ancient '84 Accord, which with 206,000 miles felt more solid than my '98). I have owned 2 Accords and an Integra GS-R, and my family has owned 2 Legends and innumerable Accords, and all were much nicer than my '98.

    I was motivated to ditch it after the driver's seat began to self-destruct (I weigh 200 pounds; we are not talking about Godzilla here, and the car had ~40K miles) and I was told it needed to have the entire seat base replaced because some rivets had worked loose, at a cost of $600. Honestly the car never thrilled me anyway; its tons of nose dive on braking, very slow steering, just-OK stereo and too-flat seats always bugged me, and it exhibited questionable panel fit and a rather squeaky, rattly interior for a fairly new car.

    This experience has soured me on American-made Hondas, and I understand the TLs are now made in Ohio. Is this true? Can anyone with 30,000 + miles on a TL comment on the build quality? I am inclined to buy a Maxima SE (I strongly prefer a manual tranny), but I am curious about the TL as well.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edwardsa1,

    I happened to be browsing this topic when I caught your post on "TL or Maxima"?

    For what it's worth, I just turned 100,000 miles on my (Japanese built) 1995 Maxima SE (5-speed) and thought I'd repeat a post I made in the Maxima section last week:

    Overall MPG = 24.13 (28+/- mpg at 70 mph)

    Total service costs = $3,091 (taken to dealer every 7,500 miles through 75k; every 15,000 miles since; oil changed by me every 4,000 miles)
    Original front brakes lasted 92,000 miles. Original Goodyear performance tires lasted 57,000 miles.

    Major repairs = NONE - headlignt bulbs and windshild wipers about it.

    Every indication is that this car is running stronger and looking better at 100k miles than my previous Toyota (Supra), Honda (Accord) and Acuras (Integra & Legend) did at 40k.

    I don't know if current Maximas are made in the US or Japan, but my Japanese built one seems to have been a far better choice than the cheaper US built Camry or Accord I was considering 6 years ago. Not only has the car held up extraordinarily well, it's still fun to drive and as quick as it was brand new. I am likely to purchase a BMW 540i 6-speed later this year, but will probably keep the Maxima rather than trade it in just because of how well its treated me.

    Good luck on your decision.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • kuanyaokuanyao Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2000 Accord EX. I love it except the less power and big noice. I am thinking of trade in it for a new TL. Anyone can give me some idea, like how much should I pay extra for the upgrade?
  • edwardsa1edwardsa1 Member Posts: 34
    Thanks for the advice. I picked up my Maxima SE tonight (Sterling Mist w/ frost leather, 5-spd, Bose, and Comfort and Convenience pkg), and am absolutely psyched (largely because I ditched the Accord). The car is gorgeous and feels much more substantial and perky than my Accord.
  • carguy62carguy62 Member Posts: 545
    How much did you pay for the Maxima? My guess is it stickered for $2-3K more than the top of the line Accord (adding the options you mentioned). You do get a few more things than an Accord has but you paid for it. The final price was probably closer to a TL than an Accord, unfair to compare.
  • edwardsa1edwardsa1 Member Posts: 34
    I got the Max for ~$25.5 out the door (had to trade in the Accord so it is impossible to fix an exact value). I got a good trade-in value on my Accord as well.

    My old Accord had substantially the same equipment, though the Max has features Honda did not offer to my knowledge (17" wheels, power passenger seat, premium stereo, manual tranny, auto-dimming rear view, external temperature indicator) and several standard features that were dealer add-ons on the Accord (stainless exhaust tips, fog lights, spoiler). Keep in mind, my Accord was a '98, and for all I know these things are available now.

    I did not pay a destination charge and got the leather package (which also includes auto climate control) for way below invoice ($800) because I initially asked for cloth and it was unavailable. I was ambivalent about leather after the very stiff, vinylly leather on my Accord; the Max has much softer, more natural-feeling leather. I think the deal on the leather actually pushed me below invoice.

    I honestly do not know how this price compares to Acura/Honda pricing, as I was so turned-off by my Accord that I would not have shopped these cars. It's too bad, as my previous experiences with Honda have always been great.
  • carguy62carguy62 Member Posts: 545
    Too bad you had the bad experience with your '98. It was the first year of the redesign so maybe that had something to do with it. As I understand it the only Japanese made Honda (except for the few Accords that are sent over) is the CR-V. I'm not so sure about Acuras but you are right about the TL (made in the same factory as the Accord). I have a Japanese built '89 Accord and recently purchased an Ohio made Accord. Pretty hard to compare the quality as the '89 is old but I am happy with the '01. If it performs half as well as the '89 I will be leaps and bounds above the majority of cars out there. Enjoy your Maxima (can't quite understand the new rear end treatment, but to each his own).
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    In addition to the CRV, Hondas made exclusively in Japan are the Prelude, the Insight and the S2000. Most 4-cylinder Accords have their Engines/Transmissions etc., built in Japan. Most Civics too have their engines/transmissions built in Japan (25% Japanese componentry).

    Among the Acuras, the 3.5RL and the NSX are built exclusively in Japan with 100% Japanese components. Cars like the 3.2TL/CL/CL-s/MDX are assembled in the US with items like the transmission etc, built in Japan(25% Japanese components).

    Having said that, I would like to point out that a relative who has a 1989 Accord (built in the US including the Engine since the Vin# starts with a 1 for US) and a 1992 Maxima(built in Japan), feels that the Accord has been perfect during his ownership (not a single issue in over 12 years of ownership other than regular 3000 mile oil changes/wiper blades/brake pads) while the Maxima (also fanatically taken care of with 3000 mile oil changes)has been back to the dealer for a variety of issues, some of which were dealt with during the warranty period....he incidentally, is absolutely enamored with the 3.2TL after having ridden extensively in my TL (7 months of absolutely pleasurable ownership - including a 2500 mile trip with luggage and 4 people - with not even a hint of any fit-and-finish or any other un-pleasant issues - not even a squeak or a rattle anywhere).

    Later...AH
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    Missed out on the Acura Integras that are also made exclusively in Japan...

    Later...AH
  • edwardsa1edwardsa1 Member Posts: 34
    Glad you are enjoying your TL. As I said previously, I have generally really enjoyed Honda products, but with my '98 I got the sense the bottom had dropped out in terms of quality.

    Your relative's experience, taken in isolation, is interesting but ultimately probably not meaningful. My father had two Acura Legends, and now drives a Maxima GLE. One Legend was basically perfect until about 75K miles (he had sold it to his brother-in-law by then), at which time it needed major engine work and a transmission rebuild. The other Legend was OK with occasional minor problems; so far his Maxima (which is 6 years old now) has been perfect. I think both Honda and Nissan products are essentially very reliable.

    In my case, I suspect the Accord would have run forever, but with an ongoing flow of spendy, minor problems like my seat, as a result of its very indifferent quality control.

    While it might be fair to blame some of the quality issues on the fact that the Accord was the first year of a new model, the things that broke down on mine were all routine stuff (the driver's seat, the sending unit on the gas gauge, and the CD player all failed, and the interior had uneven gaps in the dashboard and door panels), and I would probably not have liked the car even if it ran perfectly, due to its excessive body roll and nose dive (combined, curiously, with a harsh and noncompliant ride), and laughably slow steering. I would not have enjoyed living with the car for another 200,000 miles assuming it lived that long (which seems fairly routine for Hondas).

    I remain skeptical of the American Hondas. Keep in mind that mine was basically OK for 3 years or so (though not much fun to drive) before it began to fall apart, piece by piece.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    You are correct in that, anecdotal instances like these cannot be the basis for any sure-fire indications of how good or how bad a car (or product) is. Statistically significant figures like the ones published by Consumer Reports/JD Power etc., generally rate Hondas/Toyotas way above Nissan products.....your singular experience or mine might differ....

    The following is an excerpt from Reuters:
    --------------------
    "Japanese luxury automakers reclaimed the top three spots in a widely-watched survey for initial vehicle quality released on Thursday, while results for U.S. automakers were mixed and Korean brands fared the worst.

    According to copies of the J.D. Power and Associates initial quality survey obtained by Reuters, Honda Motor Co.'s Acura division had the fewest number of defects per 100 vehicles during the first three months of ownership -- 91 compared with the industry average of 154.

    Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus division finished second with 103 defects and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.'s Infiniti ranked third at 107 in the survey of more than 47,000 owners of 2000 model-year vehicles by Agoura Hills, Calif.-based J.D. Power.
    "

    The Lexus LS400(assembled in Japan) ranked #1, The Acura 3.5RL(assembled in Japan) ranked #2, The Acura 3.2TL(assembled in US) tied with the Lexus ES300(assembled in Japan) for the third place, Mercedes Benz SL class (Assembled in Germany) stood 5th, Lexus GS series (assembled in Japan) stood 6th, Porsche 911 (assembled in Germany) stood 7th, Toyota Camry/Avalon/Corolla (all assembled in US) stood jointly 9th......and so on...Nissan Maxima(assembled in Japan) with an average of 112 defects/100 examples stood 23rd while the Honda Accord (assembled in US) with 113 defects stood 24th (pretty close to the Maxima), Lexus RX300 (assembled in Japan) stood 35th in quality and so on.....basically assembly quality depends on the rigorousness of the quality control procedures in place...if you have the same standards that you have in a Japanese plant, in a US plant, you would get a pretty comparable product...some bad examples are bound to come in regardless of point of origin since these products are mass-manufactured.

    Later...AH
  • blexv6blexv6 Member Posts: 9
    I have a 1998 Accord EXV6 and have had no problems with it. The quality, fit and finish is excellent, so I guess the Ohio plant is doing well. Wiyh regards to the Maxima, that rear end is soooooo ugly I would never buy one. Also, the cost of a top of the line Maxima (SE) model is almost the same as the TL. After checking both vehicles out, how could you possibly choose the Maxima. I can also tell you without a doubt, in order to get a Maxima with all the things the EXV6 has, you have to get the SE, which is at least 3000K more in Canada.
  • edwardsa1edwardsa1 Member Posts: 34
    Apparently the pricing structure is somewhat different in Canada than the US. Here, the GLE is the top-end Max, not the SE, and the SE is priced just above the Accord V-6 and way below the TL. I concede the Max's external design is not without weirdness. Overall I can live with this, as I think the car looks fairly graceful in silver with the SE 17" wheels and spoiler that I have on the SE. I guess I am OK with a controversial, arguably-ugly car that is a blast to drive, as opposed to my flagrantly bland-but-inoffensive dark-green Accord.

    I did not find the TL or the Accord V-6 a plausible alternative for 2001 cars, since I dislike automatic transmissions, and, again, my '98 Accord displayed laughably slow steering and comical amounts of body roll and nose dive along with a harsh ride (which I assume was designed-in to the car's suspension and not a manufacturing defect). The Maximas are readily available here right at invoice and offer a much sportier driving experience than the TL or Accord. To each his own I guess, but to me the current Accord is a more-reliable Buick Century.

    My experience with my Accord has reinforced my frankly racist view of car manufacturing (and I say this as a white American!). I assume Honda runs a VERY tight ship in Marysville in terms of maintaining build quality, but those sorts of external controls are no substitute for the attitudes of individual Japanese workers taking great pride in building a product as perfect as possible. I have found that every Japanese-built Honda I have owned or regularly driven was beautifully built, and my American one was closer to a GM car in its overall build quality.

    I do not mean to pick on Honda or on Honda owners. I was completely surprised by my junky Accord, and I am glad to hear that others have had better luck. At this point my opinion of American-built Hondas is irreparably queered. I hope I do not turn out to be a similarly-disgruntled Nissan owner!

    In any event, I am through with this thread, as I really do not intend to pee on the Honda/Acura parade. I hope my horrid Honda was the exception rather than the rule, and best of luck to you all!
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    Actually, the possible reasons for the Honda and the Toyota factories in the US, being well above the rest of the US automotive plants, in producing quality products in the US, could be that no Honda or Toyota factory in the US is unionized, unlike the other US car products that have come in from Unionized plants.

    Honda/Toyota have been successful in enthusing the workers through rigorous, continuous and compulsory training in their plants. The workers have not shown any desire to be Unionized even though union operatives did make multiple attempts to "organize" the workers at Honda/Toyota plants. In fact from what I hear, the "unionizers" were laughed out of the Honda/Toyota plants during their several unsuccessful attempts to "organize" the plants.

    Union workers, as you may be aware, are able to bully themselves out of quite a few sticky activities, which others might probably get sacked for. In other words, they can get away with shoddy work practices and be assured that they would not/cannot (better not?!!) be "called to the mat" for it.

    The quality products emanating from Honda/Toyota plants in the US are, IMHO, solely from being non-unionized and rigorous and compulsory training for the workers in cutting-edge technology and work practices - similar to that existing in Japan (leading to a lot of value addition to the workers themselves) in all facets of the plant, including the Quality Assurance department. Results from various departments are benchmarked from the parallel ones in Japan and compared/published with the quality benchmarks being continually raised every time one meets a benchmark; thus bringing out the competitive spirit among the workers (called associates) here, and encouraging them to exceed the standards (and achievements) of the Japanese brother plants.

    Lack of quality and enthusiasm in their jobs (which is what results in shoddy workmanship) arises from a "we against them" mentality adopted by Union workers against the management - which is what one finds in most of the American plants (probably I believe you were referring to the work culture of such manufacturing plants and extrapolated them to well-run places like the Honda/Toyota plants ?).

    Later...AH
  • edwardsa1edwardsa1 Member Posts: 34
    Hunter:

    Very informative post. I wonder whether the same principles apply in, say, the US BMW plants.
  • jans4jans4 Member Posts: 7
    Anyone know if the Subaru Legacy CT is a fair alternative to the Accord EXV6, with price, features, value, performance, reliability and safety all important factors for comparison?
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