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Apparently part is in stock as the car is being worked on as we speak.
There you go another failed manifold at 18.5K miles on a babied, pampered car. Why GM??
Upon picking up the car, I will ask the service manager to show me the old Plenum. Also I plan to get a part number cross check. If the part numbers are the same, I will weigh my options about keeping the car in the near future. Pretty dissapointing.
I would guess I had about 18K on it when it happened.
Just like yours the part was in stock and they fixed it in less than 4 hours. Why do they keep the part in stock if it doesn't happen frequently?
This is a case of GM engineering cost out of an engine and it coming back to haunt them. Or more correctly the car's owners.
If I had paid for an extended warranty, every penny I paid for the warranty would have been a loss, loss, loss. And profit, profit, profit for the insurance company.
But you don't see me on here advocating people not buy one. That's a personal decision. As for me, I would NEVER buy one. Ever. I would rather assume the risk (and pocket the profit). A gamble. One I was willing to take. And one that, this time, I won.
Out of my last ten cars, there hasn't been a single one where purchasing an extended warranty would have saved me even a dime. In fact, I would say the cost of those ten extended warranties minus the repairs on those ten cars that would have been covered probably equals something like six to seven THOUSAND dollars. I think I will continue being what amounts to self-insured.
I have purchased 5 new vechiles since then, all without E.W. I would have lost on all of these as well. Granted, on 4 of them I got rid of it at about 65K miles, and the highest only up to 85K...
2000 LS now has 40K, 2.75 years old, and out of warranty. I guess I'll just have to see how this one plays out...
I guess I would rather risk maybe, possibly having to pay $800, $1000, or more, instead of definitly paying some $1500 or so...
JMHO...
For a Chevrolet I doubt if I would do it. parts are cheap and if they are expensive I would go to a "junk or u pick yard" and save a bundle.
YTD production is 254,843 vs. last year's 218,131.
I was greeted by my service manager (Terrific guy, BTW) upon my arrival and he took me to the service bay where my Imp was. He then showed me the original manifold plenum and the area where it had cracked. It had a tiny crack on the right side of the manifold and that is where the coolant was leaking out onto the exterior of the engine. The plenum is a pretty simple part (Well never seen one before)as is hollow inside and made in black thermoplastic. At the base it has the seals that sit at the top of the engine. I can't believe they charge and arm and a leg to repair/replace it when it goes south.
Anyway, the dealer keeps these plastic plenums in stock because...you guess it....seems to be a common event with these engines leaking coolant early in their service lifetimes.
The car is fine now and the coolant tank level is finally where it should be. When i press the gas pedal, I get a reminder of why I like this car so much in the first place....the smooth, quick acceleration.
Kudos to my dealer for getting this problem sorted out in less than a day. I really do appreciate the service they have given me.
However, although my car is fixed now, I am still bitter about this manifold thingie. I could not cross check the manifold's part numbers as I will be receiving the repair ticket on the mail sometime this week. I suspect that if the part is the same # as the old one, this plenum is going to warp again in 2 years, at which time the car will be out of warranty (Unless I purchase an extended one).
I still find this fault unacceptable in my book and a bad cost cutting tactic in GM's part to save a buck or two at the assembly line.
Everyone should keep an eye on the coolant level of these cars and take it to your dealer should the level goes down or bad antifreeze smells are coming from the engine.
Merry Xmas everyone.
I change my oil filter religiously every 3K miles, so anything of this nature can be discovered in time.
I guess I was lucky because....a)The manifold warped during warranty and b) the problem was discovered on time and the coolant leak was external.
I think most people don't realize how serious a manifold coolant leak can be. If left unattended can cause costly widespread damage to the engine.
It is a good idea to check the coolant level in the recovery tank once or twice a week and be attentive to any antifreeze smells coming from the engine bay. The faster the problem is detected, the less chance for it to damage your engine.
GM has a real problem in their hands with these plastic manifolds and I am truly surprised that the NHTSA has not forced a general recall upon them. There are thousands of owners that have had the same problems. Most of them have had their manifolds failed outside of the warranty amd coolant, like Charts2 says, have roasted their engines.
Could it be that the Police/Taxi versions of the 3800 V6 get a better quality manifold? I have no idea. When these manifolds used to be made in Aluminum, people never had these problems with their 3800's.
I might change my oil and filter again this weeks as a preventive measure....thanks for the tip.
My MINI has a factory recommendation to change the BMW antifreeze every 2 years. Yet my Impala, has a recommendation to change the Dexcool not until the 150K Mile mark!.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?GMcnsmrs&1
and other complaints it appears that engine gasket and intake manifold problem is less than 1% of the GM V-6 engines--just an estimate--but if that is true your engine's chance of having the defect is not too worrisome. I also have the 3.1 in a 6 yr. old with no problems yet although there are complaints about the manifold, gaskets and piston slap on this engine. Ford has similar engine complaints, too. The manifolds are probably made by a third party supplier and it sometimes takes time to get things right.
Before you buy an extended warranty take a look at mechanical breakdown insurance from your auto insurance carrier. Costs about $60/yr for the Imp and you may be able to get it for up to 11 mos. after you purchase the car.
The manifold cracked? Wonder if they overtorqued the fasteners.
Interesting, I was looking at the service manual and it doesn't take a lot to remove the intake manifold. It shouldn't cost all that much to replace, labor wise. Drivin, when you get the statement, let us know what they did. I assume you would get a coolant change since they would have to drain the fluid to remove the manifold.
There also seems to be two different intake manifolds for the 3800 engine. One is alumnium and one is the plastic one. However, these are not interchangeable. The throttle body attaches to the right side of the plastic one and on the left side of the alumnium unit.
Drivin, did you see any staining on the block? That's something else people can be watching for. If you can give me any details (description, photos, links to websites that also document the problem) I can create another page similar to the engine cradle one.
Too bad the aluminum unit won't directly replace the plastic one - I'd hate to replace one with a plastic one, only to have it go out again in a few years. I've never bought an E.W., and didn't even consider it on the Impala, due to the reputation of the drivetrain on this vehicle.
Question - If people are having this problem now and get it repaired on their own, and GM ultimately issues a recall, do those who already had the problem get reimbursed?
I have followed these threads for sometime now, and I have seen several posts of mysterious coolant leaks and such. There are at least 4 2001 Impala LS owners here (Including B4z and Gasoline) that have had their plastic manifolds fail before 30K miles.
I had a very slow leak ( I was losing about a cup or two of coolant every 2 months) and never had any coolant puddles under the car. I took the car last month for a pressure test of the cooling system and everything came back "OK".
Not until mid November I started to notice the nasty coolant smell coming out of the engine bay, but could not see any puddles or traces of the coolant leaking on the right side of the manifold. The dealer apparently in despite of the strong smell, could not see it either. I am sure this time around they used an ultraviolet light to be able to detect the leaking coolant dye.
My car was perfectly fixed on Friday. Now my question is, how long the new Manifold is going to last? 15K or 20K miles and then replace again?
The factory manifold only lasted 20 months (18.5K miles).
Why is this happening to a religiously maintained car by the Book? Why are these plastic manifolds leaking so early in their useful service lives???
I am not dissing the Impala or the 3800 V6 engine as I still like 'em both a lot (And still think highly of the quality and durability of the product as a whole), but Manifold leaks are SERIOUS and COSTLY problems and can also cause major mechanical breakdowns such as totally seized engines.
There are no recalls for these plastic manifolds. People that have been misfortunate to have this happened outside of the warranty, have not been reimbursed by GM for what clearly is THEIR OWN MISTAKE. Unless NHTSA forces a general recall, GM will not do it.
The only TSB I have found out (But have not been able to see the contents) related to the manifold is:
TSB 01-06-01-007 "Composite Intake Manifold 3.8L V6"
I have no idea if this applies to the 2000+ Impalas with the 3800 engine.
GM has been getting away with these crappy plastic manifolds for far too long. They are making owners of these vehicles outside of warranty pay for their own cheap part and mistake. Not fair in my book.
It seems to me the leaking manifold in the 3800 happens slowly and overtime. My advise to fellow 3800 Impala owners: Keep close tabs on the coolant level in the recovery tank, check for coolant presence in oil, flush the coolant system every 2 years (Dexcool is known to eat away the gaskets if left there for a long time) check for stains in the engine block or puddles under the car and treat any Coolant smells coming from the engine bay as a red flag that something is going on with the plastic manifold.
No, I don't think this is an uncommon problem, unfortunately.
http://www.zzperformance.com/zzp/products/l36_coolantplug_info.htm
That is something formed by Jim Wierzbicki who owns a Grand Prix with the L36. He makes lots of neat mods for our motor, and this one was meant to help performance. But, after reading this article, it might help with the manifold problem. Check it out
He is registered with mountaintopclub.com but doesn't post there anymore either.
I think his last post there was May '02. I guess he is officially AWOL.
I am not very mechanically inclined.
Anyway, I'm bringing my car in, '01 LS with 40,882, this Thursday. I'll post how I make out.
The next warranty I bought was for a used '92 Infiniti Q45 with 89k miles. I bought a 24/24K warranty for that and THANK THE LORD! That car had over 20K in repair work done under that warranty. Towards the end, I actually had to sue the warranty company to get the last $4500 paid. Needless to say, the car was traded immediately after it ran out.
BUT, I traded on a used '95 Olds Aurora w/ 50K miles that I still own. Because I was gun-shy after the Q45 experience, I bought a 24/24K GM Bumper-to-Bumper warranty for $1500. When it ran out, I had made only 1 $125 claim. Of course in the 8 months since, I've spent about $1500 in new radiator, AC compressor, Water pump, etc. Oh, Well.
The same can be said about EW's. Depending on the car's warranty repair history and overall reliability stats for the make/model, one needs to make a decision if it is worth to "prepay" for any unexpected breakdowns down the road or to take the gamble and hope for the best.
Let's face it, Impalas are great cars and probably one of the best qualitywise products put out under the bowtie brand by GM in many years. But these cars still do not match the reliability reputation of the Japanese competitors and things will surely break after the factory warranty.
The ISS and the plastic intake manifold are 2 prime examples of costly to repair items that at some point will fail again. Thanks to the GM beancounters, Steering shafts and Intake Manifolds are part of the wear and tear dept.
I think the Imp is a terrific car in many ways and I don't have a problem keeping it for the long run, but not without an EW contract. I do not trust these cheesy plastic manifolds at all, not specially after one that "melted" under normal use at 18K miles.
EW are a personal choice, and I don't think you can't go wrong getting a good service contract to cover for unexpected repair expenses. Chevy parts perhaps are cheaper than many other makes and models, but labor rates is what makes auto work in these cars so damn expensive.
The 3400 V6 is used primarily in GM's current crop of Minivans, the Alero, Grand AM, Aztek and Buick Rendezvous.
The ISS problem is a fact of life in these cars, but I'll take that any day over an engine/manifold leaking coolant.
It seems that the ISS relube has had some degree of success as I see that complaints about this item have minimized since it was introduced in a new TSB.
Would like to know how much your company has paid for the ISS relube out of warranty.
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb110112.htm
And, here is the exact part I am refering to:
"This passage is partially protected by a metal sleeve that sticks up from the lower manifold, but that doesn’t keep the heat from the hot exhaust gas from damaging the upper manifold over the long term. When the plastic deteriorates, it exposes the coolant passages used to preheat the throttle body that are located on both sides of the EGR passage. Then, when the engine is shut off, the pressurized coolant runs down through the manifold, past an open intake valve and ends up hydrolocking one of the cylinders."
I don't know if the coolant plug will actually help, but I was just bringing it to light to see if it might be a fix. I have contacted Jim Wierzbicki about it to see if he believes his product could serve this function. Stay tuned
From the photos of the plug and of the K intake, it looks like the hole developed in the intake and the plug seals the throttle body. To fix the issue described in the article, one would have to remove the intake and fill the passages with epoxy or something.
I wonder why the plastic manifold makes more power? Maybe they can form the air path better in plastic?
I wish they had said how old that manifold was.
11/15/01:
"My 98 Bonneville SE 3800 V6 automatic, had a small coolant leak between the throttle body and the plastic intake/plennum. When the local service tech took it apart he said there was a pin hole in the plastic intake/plennum. The car only has 48k miles on it and he said this was a pre-mature failure and the second one he has seen on this model. He suggested after he makes the repair, I take the failed part and invoices to the local Pontiac dealer and attempt to get reimbursement, even though it is out of warranty, because it should have lasted much longer. Do I have any chance of recouping $$ from Pontiac and is this a common problem?"
11/21/01
"Here is an update.
The local dealer contacted the D.S.M. and he said because I did not take the car to the dealer they would only reimburse me for 50% of what the warranty "cost" would have been, which came to $162.64. My bill at the ASE certified repair facility was $637.41. The intake manifold itself was $295.66. I took it up with Pontiac customer relations and they say what the D.S.M says is final and I have no other recourse with them because I am out of warranty.
The problem appears to be an incompatibility of the new Dexcool antifreeze and the plastic material the intake manifold is made of. The coolant is eating though the manifold.
I would be interested to know if anyone else has seen or heard of this problem."
I did find a TSB that covers the leaking ERG area of the intake manifold. However it does not say it applies to the Impala. Various 1995-1998 GM vehicles with the 3.8 L engine (VIN K - RPO L36). It was issued in July 2001 so if it applied to the Impala (and Monte Carlo) it should have been incorporated. It has not been revised since then. I'll post the full text on the ImpalaHQ site later this evening.
The TSB is posted on the ImpalaHQ site and I'll work up a How-To article on this later.
If you have the info on what the ISS relube costs, let me know. If the ISS creak comes back and they charge an "arm and a leg" we may just wait for the new car to come and not waste the $$$
Possible over torquing of the manifold bolts could cause premature cracks in the plastic intake. I think I read this somewhere a long time ago, but can't remember the source.
Are there any aftermarket companies that make manifolds for the 3800 V6?