Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

tblazed · May 2003

Seems like an old topic. Haven't read here of any failures for a while after some of the initial ones failed made 6-01 or before as I recall. Thought all this was resolved over a year ago. One would think if this was still happening it would be all over the internet like the GM piston slap-knock issue. Isn't there a web site that can be searched for silent recalls?

zueslewis · May 2003

I'm still seeing 2-3 cases a month - I handle about 35-40 GM cases (total) per month. No, it's not resolved.

This discussion was sent over from another SUV discussion - sorry to drop in like this.

tblazed · May 2003

That's what this forum is for - information! Thanks for dropping in!

zueslewis · May 2003

I see far fewer lemon law cases on the GM triplets than I do on Explorers!

paulyjsob · May 2003

I have a 2003 Envoy with build date 12/02. Does anyone know when they started using the 21 gallon gas tank? I always fill up before it hits 1/4 tank and I can't figure out what size it is. Thanks!

momstruck1 · May 2003

a car for me because it always cost them more then the alotted 30 or 35 dollars a day with three kids and one in a booster they have to give me a larger car no the standered small one. I just have 25 payments to go

tblazed · May 2003

Seems I remember 8-02 was when they started using the bigger tanks.

tblazed · May 2003

zueslewis: Very interesting. Of the triplet cases are there about as many newer ones mfg. past 6-01 as the older ones failing? There was supposedly some "fix" done at some point past 6-01. The Explorer thing though is more interesting in that the TrailBlazer rose from nothing to #2 in sales behind the Explorer (maybe from people hoping for something better than their Explorer experience??)

ltz2003 · May 2003

I have a 10/02 built tb. It has a 22 gal tank, on the tag in the glove box the code for the big tank is NNK. Im not sure if GMC is the same but it dosnt hurt to look

paulpro · May 2003

Can anyone tell me how quiet the in-channel window vents are. I do a lot of highway miles and can't ride with the window cracked for all the noise

Paul P

smfran · May 2003

My 2003 Envoy XL (build date 12/02) has a 25 gallon tank.

zueslewis · May 2003

these cases started showing up just 6-8 months ago, but then I haven't ever checked the build dates on the rigs in question.

The only fix I can think of is what they're doing to the ones that break now - installing remanufactured engines - the ones that failed and were rebuilt.

jr45 · May 2003

Every engine has its weakness. I had a '99 Camaro with the 5.7 LS1 engine and most of the failures came from spun main or rod bearings. In the forums a lot of guys would report spinning bearings -- then again, they were probably racing or otherwise running the tar out it. Maybe the same thing with the 4.2.

nuyorkah · May 2003

Note the temp this occurs at (104F)

TSB#03-08-52-002 - (03/27/2003)

Remote Keyless Entry Inoperative (Reprogram Liftgate Module)

2002-2003 Chevrolet TrailBlazer, TrailBlazer EXT
2002-2003 GMC Envoy, Envoy XL
2002-2003 Oldsmobile Bravada

Condition
Some customers may comment that the Remote Keyless Entry (RKE) is inoperative at times.

Cause
An anomaly has been identified with the software in the Liftgate Module (RKE functions). The Liftgate Module software is affected when the temperature is approximately 40°C (104°F).

Correction
Using normal SPS reprogramming procedures, reprogram the LGM Liftgate module. The information was released on TIS version 2.75 or newer broadcast in March 2003.

ficuss · May 2003

zueslewis: My 2002 TB engine quit after 2160 miles in Oct. of 2001. The diagnosis was a loose cylinder sleeve. They replaced the engine with what they told me was a new "off the assembly line" engine. Prior to that failure there were no postings about failed engines. I wondered if they really gave me a new engine or a rebuilt one from someone elses truck.

Going back to when the engine quit, I remember the night before it quit, I started the TB and got on the expressway after a few minutes and had to floor it hard to get out of the way of a semi. The engine was still cold when this happened. The next day is when it quit. I don't know if this had anything to do with the failure. The new engine with about 15 k miles has been faultless so far.

Frank

twinrotts · May 2003

Note the temp this occurs at (104F)

My TB has never seen temps this high and I had the problem during the winter.
Very intermittent and only a slight annoyance

st1100v4 · May 2003

I don't think I've seen the owner's center discussed here in this forum. Are people using it? I've been using it for about a year on the Bravada and I just added our new Grand Prix to my vehicle list. I find it useful for the maintenance reminders, on-line access to routine service information, and for maintaining a service history. The information can also be loaded to your PDA.

zueslewis · May 2003

either e-mail me with the part number off your invoice or call your parts department (in a nice calm tone) and say - can I run a part number by you to see if it's new or remanufactured?

The "fresh of the assembly line" seems to be the line most service advisors give out, with any manufacturer's dealership, not just GM. I know, I was a service advisor/service manager and my guys would use that line, until I stopped them.

drcsf · May 2003

I have just purchased an off (2 year) lease 2002 Envoy SLT (iniglo blue). Prior to this I read probably 75% of the posts here over the last 4-6 weeks. Despite many of the issues here I liked it and I bought it anyway. The truck was built 2/01, sold 8/01 after having the control arm recall fixed before it was ever sold. I was able to access the GM database and was able to see the build order, all repair claims, etc. Besides the 1st recall the only other repair was an A/C controller replacement and a rear door adjustment. My truck is a more basic SLT, with the cassette (non-Bose), running boards, upgraded wheels, and heated seats. No sunroof, no air suspension. It has 26,000 miles and I paid $22,700 before tax/fees. I'm hoping since it has a pretty clean history I bought a "good one". I am 43 years old, change vehicles every 3-4 years, and this is my first domestic vehicle in 20 years(last GM product was a Chevy Vega!). I have owned mostly Japanese cars, this is also my first truck. I looked at all the Japanese vehicles and decided I wanted a true SUV, not a tall, all wheel drive Camry or Accord. I love the appearance, the seats and the ride. I have it at my local dealer for its Maryland state inspection - they already told me it needs brakes and wiper blades to pass inspection, which I sort of expected as part of the inspection racket. I think this is a great board, thanks to all who share their thoughts here, I will participate as needed as I get used to the Envoy. Sorry this was so long. Craig

dashcraft123 · May 2003

I got the service engine soon light today. I read the owners manual and it says to check the gas cap. well sure enough it was off. in the manual it also says it is supposed to correct itself. how long should I wait till it goes off. or should I take it to the shop.

mrau · May 2003

My SERVICE ENGINE light came on the other day for about an hour during a two hour trip. I filled up gas tank (the cap looked tight) and the light went off about 15 minutes later. Has not been on since.
I called OnStar when it came on. They could not find anything. They said if light stays on for a day or two, then take to dealer to be checked. Mine corrected it self. Seems most correct themselves like that.

Mike

seiford · May 2003

So why do the dealerships try to "shield" the customer from the mechanics so much? Is the intent of the "Serivce Advisor" position to provide a customer-friendly, car-knowledgeable person for the customer to interact with?

So far my experience has been that they are a hindrance. They write down about every 5th word you say onto the work order, then dumb-down the explanation of the repair when they call you.

Should I write up a description of the truck's issue and leave it in the vehicle for the mechanic to read? Can I bribe them with donuts?

We're calling the Service Manager this morning to talk about bringing in our '03 Envoy for the 6th time.. they replaced the spark plugs 2 days ago (supposedly got a 'low resistance value' code), but the stutter at idle remains. Hopefully we can convince him to have a mechanic drive the truck with us in it. I think if a mechanic actually gets to experience the stutter he may have some clues.

For over 10 years we've taken our cars to a local Goodyear dealer for non-warranty work. They are excellent - the dealership could learn a thing or two by studying how Goodyear does it. The Manager knows what he's talking about, spends time to drive the vehicle himself to experience the complaint, doesn't charge for "diagnostic" and "no problem found" issues.

zueslewis · May 2003

I'll ask you to set aside the problems you're having with your vehicle and look at your point from the service manager's perspective.

I'm a former service manager/advisor - the LAST thing I want is my techs having to talk to customers. That sounds harsh, but the first consideration is time - customers who can't be "brief" take valuable time away from the technician's mission - to support his family by repairing vehicles. If he's talking to you for an hour, you just cost him $20-40 out of his own pocket, plus costing the dealership $80-150.

I've had real issues with tech/customer conversations because technicians seem to "tell it like it is", not sugar-coat things and most customers simply can't handle the truth. In this world of political correctness, most people want things candy-coated and all nicey-nicey, and technicians aren't generally people who have a regard for holding someone's hands during a car repair. The say what they need, get things done, and it's on to the next one - that's their job.

I refuse to allow customers in my shop for that very reason, and have had several techs who would completely stop working if someone bothered them with a gillion questions. That is NOT what they are there for - they are there to repair your vehicle, and the more of their time you take, the longer it takes to fix your car and backs the line of cars up that much farther.

And by the way, no offense to the fine folks at Goodyear, Firestone, Pep Boys, Jiffy Lube, etc, but if these guys were really certified and licensed to work as a technician, they'd be at a dealership, since the pay is generally 20-25% higher. You have to ask yourself why they're at Pep Boys instead of Jones Chevrolet. On many occasions, it's 3 DWIs, 14 tickets, on the non-ability to become ASE certified....

seiford · May 2003

>In this world of political correctness, most
>people want things candy-coated and all nicey-
>nicey, and technicians aren't generally people
>who have a regard for holding someone's hands
>during a car repair.

That practice may be fine for 95% of the service calls. But we've had this truck in FIVE times for this problem and the SA keeps writing up a 5-word description of the problem.

We're trying to work WITH the dealer to get this problem resolved - I understand how frustrating intermittant problems can be to fix. But if they don't even bother to get a good description of the problem then how can they fix it?

If a doctor's office was run like this you would never get to talk to the doctor. You'd have to state your symptoms to the nurse and she'd relay 1/2 of them to the doctor.. then she'd call you back with a diagnosis.

If I was a mechanic I'd want as much accurate information as possible about the problem.

>And by the way, no offense to the fine folks at
>Goodyear, Firestone, Pep Boys, Jiffy Lube, etc,
>but if these guys were really certified and
>licensed to work as a technician

The Goodyear we go to has ASE technicians. And if we ask to speak with one, the manager calls him in and we all discuss the issue. 5 minutes doesn't cut into his "billable hours".

tblazed · May 2003

A friend that has a pretty much identical TB pointed out to me an audible knock that occurs when the engine is restarted hot. Now that he mentioned it I notice it in mine too. Sounds like an uncontrolled preignition detonation "knock" maybe one or two knocks will be heard when the engine is started. Seems like as fuel/air mix is initially drawn into the combustion chamber where parts are hot enough combined with the 10:1 compression this preignition knock occurs. Wonder how those 1.5MM thin iron cylinder linings like that internal uncontrolled exploding going on..?? Anyone else notice this knock at hot startup?

paulyjsob · May 2003

My glove box does have the NNK code there. I had about 1/8th of a tank this morning when I filled up. It took 16.9 gallons. No low gas light was on. So I guess I do have the 22 gallon.

st1100v4 · May 2003

No offense to the fine folks who post here, but message 11100 sounds like the polar opposite of the type of service manager I want to deal with. If "say what they need, get things done, and it's on to the next one" is bad and "candy-coated and all nicey-nicey" (i.e. duplicitous) is good, then this is a topsey-turvey world!

zueslewis · May 2003

I ask you to read again my first paragraph:

"I'll ask you to set aside the problems you're having with your vehicle and look at your point from the service manager's perspective."

I understand your frsutration. I have a PT Cruiser GT that's been towed 3 times for stalling on the freeway and has 6 total visits with "check engine" light activations.

The service manager has worked with me on it, and talking to a technician won't help - it's a software problem and the guy is only able to work with what the engineers send him.

This isn't supposed to happen to me

- I'm a lemon law investigator - I'm supposed to sit back and evaluate other people's car issues.

I filed lemon law last week.

st1100v4 · May 2003

Saw an article in the paper today about the awards. They are now listing the worst brands along with the best. The worst was Hummer. But what caught my attention is that the largest number of complaints for that brand was "bad gas milage." In a Hummer; can you imagine that!

Apparently, inane comments like that and others ARE included in the marks against a brand. Go figure.

zueslewis · May 2003

why would we want to require a guy who is trained, certified and licensed to repair your car to turn into Dr Phil and make your car problems seem "less stressful"?

It's not the tech's job to make you feel any specific way or talk to you at all - he's there to fix your car. Leave him alone and let him do his job. His job DOES NOT entail "grief counseling".

The next thing we know, each tech will have to set aside two hours a day to take folks to Starbucks, have a cappucino, and group hug and share their feelings over how having their car worked on "makes them feel". Give me a break already.

st1100v4 · May 2003

Actually my comments were directed solely at the service advisor. I don't care to talk to the mechanic. Just a straight-shooting service advisor, not a "sugar coated" spouter.

zueslewis · May 2003

I had guys working with me that would go on forever, either telling shock stories or talking down to the consumer, like you would a kid.

I always gave my folks the choice to hear the story in a technical version or layman's terms, out of respect, told them what was going on and what we'd do to repair it.

spdmtr5 · May 2003

Service departments aside;what was the milage on the blown triplet motors?If over warranty did the General replace at no cost?

zueslewis · May 2003

so I don't know if they're covering them - I would assume they are.

Most of the vehicles I see, in gerenal (all cases) are below 25-30K.

spdmtr5 · May 2003

Thanks for the info and please keep us up to date.The new stovebolt 6 is an awesome motor;I'd hate to see it become a Vega.

zueslewis · May 2003

They're looking at supercharged and turbocharged 4, 5, and 6 cylinder versions for other vehicles with 300-350 hp output and great economy. They're onto something if this cylinder sleeve issue doesn't cramp their style.

hillfla · May 2003

Same thing happened to me - I was driving along on the freeway and the light came on. Called OnStar and he told me that it most likely was my gas cap. I pulled over at the next exit and checked it and sure enough it was not on tight - I just touched it and it fell off. Funny thing was - it did not want to screw back on! I tried the normal way several times and when I jiggled it it fell back off. I had to lean all my weight into it and push really hard for it to screw back on. I then drove it to work and parked it for the day. When I left that evening the check engine light was still on but by the time I had left the parking lot it turned off. So mine took less than a day to turn back off.

I have not had this problem again but I am vigilant about double-checking my gas cap after every fill-up. I have not had the problem with it being difficult to put back on again either!

2002slt · May 2003

Zueslewis wrote:
"And by the way, no offense to the fine folks at Goodyear, Firestone, Pep Boys, Jiffy Lube, etc, but if these guys were really certified and licensed to work as a technician, they'd be at a dealership, since the pay is generally 20-25% higher. You have to ask yourself why they're at Pep Boys instead of Jones Chevrolet. On many occasions, it's 3 DWIs, 14 tickets, on the non-ability to become ASE certified...."

I have several friends that are mechanics at two small shops. They would laugh at your generalizations. They work where they do by choice. They don't have any DUI's and are all certified. Dealers are just interested in throughput (read "sweatshop").

scottc454 · May 2003

2002slt, I agree. Also, many independent mechanics come from dealerships after deciding to go on their own.
As for lack of ability to get ASE certified? It ain't like passing the bar. Getting ASE certified is cake and only requires a baseline understanding of how a vehicle works.

zueslewis · May 2003

wrong on your generalizations about dealers. More benefits, better pay, nicer working conditions, etc.

I've been in the car business for many years, and either your buddies are misinformed about dealer pay and production requirements, you have a few bad dealerships in your area, or they truly aren't qualified to work there.

What technician, with proper certfifications, wouldn't want to make 20-30% more, working possible less hours? I had two techs breaking $75K a year - not foreman, either - I'll bet your local Goodyear wrenchturner can't say that - maybe 1/3 of that....

You draw your opinions from 2 guys, I draw mine from hundreds of technicians that I've supervised, as well as industry publications that you, and probably they, don't even know exist.

Sorry to be so abrubt, but it's a known fact that 90% of the techs in private shops either have washed out of a dealership, aren't qualified to work at a dealership, or have driver's license problems that keep dealerships from being able to insure them.

If you doubt this, go ask the service writer at your local Pep Boys - he's probably like the two guys at my local Pep Boys - they got fired from dealerships for being rude to customers and being generally incompetent.

Pep Boys was the only place that would hire them, because their standards are lower and the job isn't so "technical".

zueslewis · May 2003

man, are you ever wrong. I'm testing (renewing) tomorrow night.

Here's a sample question:

18. A cylinder bore measures 3.067" below ring travel at the bottom and 3.077" below the ridge at the top. The standard factory bore is 3.065". What would be the proper repair?

a) Deglaze the cylinder walls and install the old pistons with new cast iron rings.

b) Bore and hone the cylinder to 3.097" and install 0.030 oversized pistons with new rings.

c) Bore and hone the cylinder to 3.075" and install knurled pistons with new rings.

d) Bore and hone the cylinders to 3.095" and install 0.030" oversized pistons with new rings.

Scott - can't answer it, can you? Piece of cake, huh? And that's on the basic engine repair test.

Now, there are only 300 more questions, that detailed, concerning every other part of the vehicle.

scottc454 · May 2003

3rd paragraph - I guess throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it.

http://www.careauto.org/nuts_bolts/archive/july_96/nuts_bolts_jun- e_96.html

scottc454 · May 2003

d - sounds like standard .030 over rebuild.

sildog · May 2003

No offense, Zueslewis, I agree with you. I had a friend who got canned from a dealer-of course "the boss was a jerk and I didn't do anything wrong..." In truth, the guy was a hack, later got canned from a gas station garage and is now a drunk working as a facilities fixer at some factory. BUT, wouldn't it be fun to have all the creative folks invent some new ASE test questions based on their experiences?

zueslewis · May 2003

Shotgunning (throwing parts at a problem, hoping either the problem, or the owner, will go away) will rarely repair a vehicle and is a gross waste of time and money.

It takes honest to goodness diagnosis - a skill many "parts installers" don't have, and that's in dealerships and chain stores/private shops.

zueslewis · May 2003

"creative folks invent some new ASE test questions based on their experiences" - technicians or customers?

I could seriously come up with a few, although none are directly related to the GM SUV triplets.

tblazed · May 2003

The Pep Boys store here near me in Dallas (TX) has ASE signs hanging all over the place and they advertise that all their techs are ASE certified. Either Pep Boys has higher standards here in Texas or the ASE certificate doesn't mean a whole lot. I wonder .. is the actual question pool with answers available for study?

zueslewis · May 2003

all you have to have is one ASE tech (former or current) to fly the ASE flag.

Pep Boys and others have a permanent relationship with ASE, and even at a given time where none of their techs were certified, they could still fly the sign.

I've had guys who were ASE Master Techs who were such pains that no one could work with them, so I blew them out. I've also had guys who were incredible techs, but had drinking problems or license problems - either way, a dealership can't risk the liability - I guess Pep Boys can.

I guy a few posts back said that getting an ASE cert is cake and all you have to have is basic automotive knowledge. That's bunk.

I've worked on cars since I was 6 (with my big brothers), have raced cars, been a pit crew chief, I'm an automotive expert for a lawfirm and I've testified in nearly 100 trials and arbs, and I just finished an automotive engineering degree - I test well, but I'm brushing up on the books before testing tomorrow night.

I ain't easy at all.

zueslewis · May 2003

but unlike many guides, the answers aren't listed with the questions in the end of chapter reviews or the main sample tests. You have to do it the old fashioned way.

scottc454 · May 2003

I ain't easy at all
You got that right! :^)

Allright, I suppose it's not cake, but I got your sample question right, didn't I? I'm sure I would have heard about it by now if I was wrong.

Still, I view ASE certification as a marketing tool for shops and refuse to be overly impressed by it. You can get plenty of bad mechanics to pass it.

I've got a fried of a friend who works on my Chevelle who claims he used to be ASE certified. He's allright but has sure messed up a lot of things. Judging by the fact that he passed it, I could only assume it was cake. It's good logic, trust me.

In my industry I've met plenty of incompetent people who carry Microsoft certifications, etc. so I've come to not value pieces of paper too much. I'm not saying certifications are worthless, they just don't tell the whole story.

Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles