Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

stever · March 2001

Thanks for the heads up about the spell checker & Bravada. It seems to be fixed now.

Steve
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

b4z · March 2001

I currently lease my intrigue and wish that i hadn't. Whether my next vehicle is another intrigue or trailblazer, it will be a purchase.
I need to get away from the perpetual car payment, and build some equity.
Resale is better on SUV's so i am thinking that a purchase will serve me better in the long run.
Congratulations to those of you who have purchased these new vehicles and keep the info coming. I wish i had checked in townhall before i bought my intrigue.

dindak · March 2001

I leased my previous car (Grand Prix) at the going 8.5% lease. I got my Intrigue at 4.9% finance which is still not that great but at least in 4 years it will all be over. Leasing sucks, but you can't always avoid it, especially if you can't afford the payments.

mchappell · March 2001

You're close - GM employees can get GMS (dealer stock) or GMO (factory order) pricing. This is below dealer invoice. GM suppliers generally get GMS + 3%. Dealer participation is voluntary and even if the do participate, they are not required to honor it on a particular vehicle (I had to try a few before one would order a Suburban for me).

Mark

roderacer · March 2001

If you don't mind me asking... 'below dealer invoice' What percentage below - ballpark?? And what deal did you end up with on your Suburban?

Steve

ruski · March 2001

people post some crappy reviews but can't even spell the name of the vehicle they drove. Makes me wonder if they really drove it. Or maybe they did drive a car called Bravado, not to be confused with the Bravada; maybe that Bravado is some third world country job and indeed lets the water splash inside.

b4z · March 2001

I think the bravado deal was a spellcheck problem.

svescio · March 2001

A great Canadian hello to everyone!

I am new at this. I think you guys in the States are very lucky. The closest I came to touching and seeing the Trailblazer was at the auto show. GM Canada tells me that we Canadians won't be able to test drive a Trailblazer until late April or even May and they really couldn't get more specific then that.

As you can imagine I can't wait this long. So it's great to hear your test driving comments. Please do not spare any details and continue to post test drives.

Some of you have been commenting on the transmission noise others on the lack of power.

However, recently I read a test drive review by a Canadian writer who test drove a Trailblazer in Detroit and had nothing, but good things to say. Even went as far to compare the engine to BMW and Jaguar!

Is this writer crazy or is he on the ball when describing the engine and transmission?

Lets be honest, don't worry I can take it! Remember I'm Canadian.

Thanks

briandavis · March 2001

Wow, check this out, GM better come out with some lease deals on their new SUV's soon because Ford new SUV's has some pretty good deals. For a Ford Explorer, a two years lease is 3.25 APR and a three year lease would be 4.75 APR, this is a much better deal than GMAC standard rate of 9.9 Come on GM work with us.

akajoe · March 2001

GM has extended the warranty on the Bravada to 5years/60K miles, and they also have included Bravada in it's deferred payment program - no down, no interest, no payments until 2/02 (like what Mitsubishi does). I got the car without paying a single penny (until next Feb of course). It's the coolest feeling to walk into a dealer, get the price you ask for, and they hand you the keys and you drive off without having to pay anything. GMAC's deferred loan kicks in a year later at 7.9% apr. Not an issue for me, I invest the cash for a year and then pay it off (no prepayment penalty).

It's a great deal.

The 4.2 I6 engine is sweet, smooth like the best of the imports. Drive by wire throttle response takes some getting used to, but it means that the engine is not torquey and jerkey when you start on the throttle like the previous generation with the 4.3L did. Instead, it is a light touch at the start of throttle, and you can finesse the acceleration off the line instead of jumping off the line.

Also, the Bravada is not a car, it is a computer on wheels. Have you seen the user's manual - you need to take college courses to cover all the features on this thing. But once you get everything programmed the way you want it, then it becomes fully automatic and simple to operate the car. Onstar is pretty cool also - one year free with the car. And the new frame is super stiff. It is a nice piece of work, considering how many units they will build.

dindak · March 2001

I was told that in early April we may start to see some Trailblazers north of the boarder. I'm surprised it's taking so long as GM vehicles usually get launched at the same time in both Canada and the U.S. Oh well.. I can wait. I can't buy one till next year anyway.

dindak · March 2001

I was watching Motor Week on Speedvision this morning. They had a very good report on the Trailblazer / Envoy/ Bravada. Their only negative was the excessive wind noise, but they said that it probably wasn't that bad and more the result of the very quiet I-6. I think they repeat the show over the weekend so check it out!

ruski · March 2001

I am amazed at how most people, magazines and TV shows report that these new SUVs have very smooth and quiet engines, yet a few lucky ones go and test drive one and discover all kinds of noises, lack of power, and even sensations of water splashing inside (maybe peed their pants?)

dwsiis · March 2001

svescio: the readers of this group are only interested in glowing reviews of these vehicles and not actual experiences...so I will not send another review. I stand by my finding of the interior ROAR!!!. My Tahoe has less interior noise with the rear windows open. The engine is adequate, not the powerhouse as advertised, AND when it is punched to the floor the loud clatter and rattling emanating under the hood was unsettling. I never mentioned the suspension so the anal retentive nerd analysing the spelling has an inability to read the substance. In regards to the spelling I called the vehicle a BravadOOO as it was all flash and hype and little substance. However , I wish the spelling nerd would buy one as it will make my Tahoe more valuable on the used car market in comparison.

gasman1 · March 2001

You got my honest evaluation of my recent test drive of the Envoy. Maybe I expected to much of the vehicle. Maybe, but there's no way I'm buying a vehicle that has the worst wind noise that I've ever experienced. Although the paper numbers on the rear seat leg room look great - check out where the feet must be placed. This space is much to narrow and confining. The rear cargo area is tall (that's how they obtained good cargo column numbers). So many of the materials used in this vehicle are "cheap".
I've said it before, everyone has an opinion... Check out the vehicle for yourself, if you like it - buy it. If you don't, let GM know that they must do better. That goes for all of the other companies as well.
My best to each of you in your search. Please continue to send in your honest evaluations and experiences. It gives all of us a chance to catch something that we may have overlooked.

warrenw48 · March 2001

I am not real good on geography but a dealer in TN. sells Envoys and all their other cars for 200.00 below invoice. I am not a salesman or representative as a matter of fact I live in Florida. the site is www.southerngm.com you can see actual invoices on the their site and compare envoy and Bravada, you need to go to the 2002's

scottnsc1 · March 2001

I agree that GM had better re-think their leasing structure. Ford already has the volume advantage, and a jacked up lease rate is not going to help GM gain market share. I love the Envoy, but if I can lease a 2002 Explorer for $100.00 less each month then that is where I will go. I have $1600.00 in GM Card dollars, but having a 36 month lease that is $100 cheaper will offset that. Ford also has the 3rd seat now instead of a year down the road. I wouldn't put a person back there, but the dog carrier would fit just fine. I know GM employees read this board, so pass this message and others like it on to the SmartLease program managers!!

mchappell · March 2001

mark_chappell@yahoo.com

dindak · March 2001

I think Ford is a little more desperate to hold on to Explorer share than GM is. The whole Firestone fiasco and a very strong competitor from GM must be putting the pressure on.

blake777 · March 2001

I recently rook possession of my new
2002 Envoy. I really like it, especially the
color, Magnetic Red. My 2 complaints would
be the steering could be a little tighter...not
so lose, and the seatbacks could be more
supportive. Besides that, the quality seems
very good compared with the previous generation models.

scottnsc1 · March 2001

I agree that Ford is feeling the pressure, and I read that they held the Explorer launch a few weeks to insure that there were no quality issues.

I truly wish GM the best with this new lineup of SUV's, and I hope to own an Envoy very soon. However, like I said before, if GM thinks I am willing to pay $100 (or more) a month for their vehicle over a similarly equipped and priced Explorer they are wrong.

beach15 · March 2001

What are some of the deals like on the Bravada? So far, I've only seen two Bravada's around here in Delaware. Last night I saw the first commerical for the 2002 Bravada and all it had info. on was the 5/60 warranty that's standard. No rates or discounts. I would imagine since they will be disappearing soon, they'll have to discount something. Where can you find out a good deal?

beach15 · March 2001

Here's a new 2002 navy blue 4x4 SLT Envoy at Star Pontiac, Buick, GMC in Leesburg, Virginia:

http://www.starcars.com/GMC/G2100.html

montanabill1 · March 2001

Any links to good reviews of these new SUV's. I decided against a Pathfinder and when I turned it in the Salesman showed me an Envoy today and I fell in love with it but have not driven it yet. Leary of GM cars (engine OK but rest has been junk tho what I saw was a HUGE improvement). What is the MPG for AWD version?

jackgit · March 2001

I dropped off my 1999 Yukon for service & my dealer gave me a 2001 Envoy for the day.
Not bad it rides much better than the Yukon.
The engine was fast in compared to the bigger Yukon. However I won't lease this for over 605 per mth. Yukons are going for over 1k per mth, & that @ invoice.....!!!! My lease is up in q mths on the Yukon IF GM doesn't do anything with the
pricing I'm gone.......One other thought the Envoy looks too much like a mini van from the back!

svescio · March 2001

I agree with you about the back of the Envoy. The front however is awesome. I personally prefer the Trailblazer's overall look, but that's just me. Besides price which is unfortunate, do you see yourself leasing the Envoy?

What were your overall impressions of the Envoy?

Did you hear the wind noise that others have commented on recently?

Was the transmission smooth like all General's?

Did the engine feel sluggish or strong?

Let the group know, as any info whether good, bad or ugly will steer us in the right direction. I sure hope these SUVs' are built like a rock.

Thanks

dwsiis · March 2001

This is not a review but an observation. After the last eight years I have learned to look at actions rather than rhetoric. A local dealer got three BravadOOO's in to date, ordered for customers. All three customers have canceled their orders after driving their vehicles, so there are three new BravadOOOs on the lot. After driving one I also canceled my order. The sales manager said he was privately very disappointed with the vehicle. Make of that what you wish.

svescio · March 2001

To borrow a phrase from another car company "driving is believing."

Just one question: What exactly made you cancel your order?

I think it would help the group to know.

Another famous phrase: "actions speak louder than words." We will soon find out if loyal GM owners will be flocking elsewhere for a mid-size SUV.

Thanks

flyguy5 · March 2001

I had my gauges read what ever they wanted. Sometimes they were fully pegged and other times they worked normal or never moved. Took it to the dealer and they found that the relay was not fully installed in its socket. Pushed it in and it seems to be OK for now.

akajoe · March 2001

Have had my Bravada for almost a week, driven at different speeds and conditions. Wind noise doesn't seem to be much when driving into the wind, even at highway speeds. When wind noise seems to show up is when there is crosswind. Most of the noise appears to come from the A pillars and the protruding airflow guides alongside the windshield - cross wind moving across these airflow guides generates the noise. When there is no cross wind or driving into the wind or down wind, wind noise is normal even at highway speeds. I think these airflow guides are there to keep rainwater away from the front side windows, which they do very well.

svescio · March 2001

Hi James

Excellent description!

Cross wind will make noise levels in a cabin of car increase and I can just imagine what it would do to a SUV.

How does the engine and transmission feel and sound?

I tell you I can't wait until these SUVs arrive in Canada. When they do I will test drive one and post detailed observations.

dindak · March 2001

Saw a 2002 Envoy (blue) on the 401 Friday in Toronto. Not sure if it was a GM corporate test vehicle or if it was off a lot. It had dealer plates on it. It was also getting a lot of looks.

akajoe · March 2001

Prior to getting my Bravada, my previous car was an S10-Blazer '88. It was totaled in an accident which is why I had to get a new car. Until I got my Bravada, my insurance company paid for a car rental, and I rented a brand new Mitsubishi Montero, the full size one for a week. The Mitsubishi engines are silky smooth like the Toyota's (at least when they are new). So I was able to compare the new I6 to not only by old S10-Blazer's 4.3L V6, but also to Mitsubishi's V6 (which is world class smooth).

The Bravada engine is as smooth and quiet as the Mitsubishi. Transmission seems to know when to shift at the right time, doesn't hunt up/down at all (with all that torque on tap, it doesn't need to), and this car loafs at below 2000 rpm at 65mph. I had it on cruise control (testing it) at 45mph, and the engine was turning at 1000rpm. Even at this low rpm, the engine doesn't lug and you don't feel any vibration or hear much noise. This engine has way more beef than the Mitsubishi which would rev around 3000 rpm at 65mph on the highway.

My S10-Blazer with the 4.3V6 used to run very low rpms, but would growl and roar mightily. It would also be too torquey at low throttle and low rpm making accelerating from a dead stop or from low speed jerky. This new I6 with drive by wire is completely finessed - the torque is there big time at all speeds, but the computer helps control it. You can pull from a stop or from low speed very smoothly even though the engine is putting out a lot of torque.

fsmasek · March 2001

The Irvine,CA automall dealers have all of them in stock. I drove a new Trailblazer LT today and like the interior better than the Bravada and Envoy. There is more right leg/knee room due to the instrument panel design, and I like the look and placement of the air vents better. I am a cash buyer and suspect the Chevy dealers will provide better prices. The 2002 Ford Explorer seems very boxy and ugly next to the 2001 Explorers and the new GM products. Blue Oval News also has a story about Ford selling defective parts as new. I wish the 4WD Chevy's had the same body color bumper centers as the brochure shows on the 2WD versions, but hope the two tone LTZ models look good. I see that OnStar is a roughly $900 option on the LS models - I wish it could be deleted - I have a PCS cell phone and do not need or want the very expensive OnStar. I think that the Bravada front exterior and round wheel openings are the best of the three, but the Chevy interior sways me toward the Chevy. I also wish the LTZ had the same wider Michelin tires as the Bravada.

buyingbill · March 2001

I just saw my first Envoy SLE. The plastic fake wood I saw in SLT was replaced by a freaky geometric patterned design. Does anyone know if the fake wood is available in the SLE? I was ready to buy an Envoy because I thought the interior of the SLT was well desgined and sort of classy, but the SLE is horrendous. I came across the same thing when looking at Toyota Sequoias and Highlanders. Fake wood in the high end models but ugly designed trim in the base models.

Also, one Orlando FL dealer is selling Trailblazer LTs for $26999, MSRP is $30090 with options like BOSE, trac control and more.

david3637 · March 2001

Anybody have the BOSE stereo? How is the treble, bass and overall clarity with radio reception and with the CD.
Worth the extra $495? Thanks in advance for your comments.

b4z · March 2001

Unless bose has changed their philosophy with this vehicle, there won't be any bass or treble and it will be lacking in clarity.

morelock · March 2001

Anyone know what the GMS & GMO price breaks on either Trailblazer, Envoy, or Bravada are. Seems from previous posts that dealers are giving discounts already, just want to determine what difference is if I am able to get GMS or GMO price. Thanks in advance?

FYI - local dealer had 2 Envoy's (both SLE's) and 1 Bravada. They left the doors unlocked at night on one Envoy. Seems a lot bigger inside than previous model and better quality. I saw the dash, it seemed dark, rather than the wood, but it was night time so didn't get a great feel for it. Will report back are test drive.

jbossert · March 2001

dwsiis- What is the name and location of the Olds dealer where these three orders were cancelled?

jbossert · March 2001

The Bose system in the new Envoy/Trailblazer/Bravada is excellent. I am quite discriminating when it comes to sounds sytems and I am very pleased with this one. My previous two Corvettes both had Bose Gold sounds systems and they sounded absolutely terrible!! The highs were not high and the lows were not low. In fact, the standard stereo on my 98 Tahoe sounded better. This is definitely not the "old" Bose system. In my opinion, the "new" Bose option is definitely worth the $495.

scottnsc1 · March 2001

I have seen all three vehicles and I have to say the Trailblazer looks better in person than in pictures. Although, all that argent plastic cheapens the look. I don't think I would be happy with that for very long.

I drove my sister's Bravada yesterday and it is excellent inside and out. The only quirk is that my wife could not find a comfortable seating position. She is short and the seat cushion is very deep. My sister got her Bravada for $100 over invoice, used her $1500 owner loyalty certificate, and got the 5/60 warranty. The dealers are willing to deal, but GM still doesn't have a good lease rate.

I think we have decided to go with the Tahoe for a number of reasons. The first being seat comfort for my wife. The other being that my lease is about finished and I can't wait a year for the bugs to get worked out of this vehicle. (I'm not slamming GM, but almost any manufacturer has things that need to be ironed out on a completely new vehicle.)

I agree the new Explorer is a bit boxy. In terms of styling, it seems to be a step backwards for Ford.

b4z · March 2001

My previous post was sarcasm based on my past experience with bose products. Not based on any
experience with the new trailblazer.

rthammer · March 2001

I was under the assumption that the 3% hold back was based on the MSRP but my local dealer says that it is 3% of invoice minus destination charges. Which is correct?

jbossert · March 2001

I am a GM Supplier and received the standard GM supplier discount of GMS+4% (was 3% until this year). This basically equates to invoice price. If you are in the Midwest, you have a great chance of getting your employee discount.

roderacer · March 2001

I received some good info re: this issue from a fellow TH user (mchappell). You can view GMO and GMS prices at this site.

http://www.gmfamilysavings.com

Hope this helps...

RR

morelock · March 2001

Just drove Envoy SLE and Bravada. Comparisons:

Envoy - more rugged, but classy. Quitter, both wind noise and tire noise - there was some noise, but relatively quite. Car like ride, engine was nice - revived a little when didn't push peel done, but when real nice when going 30 and accelerate, felt like a sports car. Interior seemed nice, nice cloth material and dash looked good, even without fake wood. SLT has leather which looks better than Bravada leather, SLT Envoy was two-toned. Real roomy, I liked it alot.

Bravada - loaded with goodies - only problem is goodies ain't always good for you. Leather was nice, but not as nice was Envoy SLT's. Air suspension did seem any different than coil springs in Envoy. Dash was okay, but nothing special. Looks sophisticated on the outside, less rugged. Road nice, and engine was good, but wind noise and tire noise, while not bad, was more noticable than Envoy. Salesman said tires on Bravada are bigger and thus tire noise is more, but wind noise - didn't have answer.

Conclusion - unless you need all the extra's stick with the Envoy SLE - and if you need the extra's, unless you want sophisticated over rugged but classy, stick with the Envoy SLT.

Envoy SLE - $31,645 with destination - GMS price was $27,656 I think - thats 87.4% of MSRP and destination.

markorno · March 2001

What is the Owner Loyalty Certificate??? Thanks!

sactoken · March 2001

Looking online, for fully loaded TB-LT and Envoy SLT --4x2-- with 4.10 axel, running board, Bose, in-dash 6 CD changer, locking dif, tow pkg etc, I'm looking at $32,500+/- for the Envoy, and $30,750 +/- for the TB...or apx $1,200 over dealer invoice.

I've seen the Envoy SLE and I'm drooling... Wife prefers the RX300 but best I've seen there equipped the way I like it is apx $34,750, which is about dealer invoice. I too like the Lexus, but it works out to about another $60 per month in payment over the TB.

I'm willing to travel anywhere in CA or NV to pick up...has anyone seen better deals today? Do you think better prices are available or do I just have to wait until end of summer?

AND...would you actually compare these to each other?

sactoken · March 2001

Owner Loyality Certificate is for repeat GM customers, I believe.

3% holdback is based upon dealer invoice because the holdback goes to pay financing costs, and they are financing the invoice amount, not MSRP.

earlc · March 2001

The 3% holdback at GM is based on total MSRP NOT the invoice price.

Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

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